Skip to Overview and beyond if you just want to learn the build.
Why Play Standard? It is generally accepted among high level Starcraft 2 players that the best way to improve is to use the same build every game. The idea of this is the same as when people tell random players that they will improve most quickly by using the same race every game: “a jack of all trades is a master of none”. By narrowing down the possibilities of what can happen in a game, you reduce the amount of learning it takes to increase your skill level. In the time it takes you to answer the question “how should I play each of these 10 different builds against 2 rax expand?”, you could instead answer the question “how should I play my one build against 10 different builds that Terran can do?” When working on a single build at a time, you learn all the nuances of it. You know what to do vs standard play, cheesy play, etc. You know what your build is weak against, and figure out a way to scout it coming. You know exactly how to adjust your build in response to scouting, and thus eliminate its weaknesses. You have an idea of what to do at every stage of the game.
But most importantly, you will know the build so well that you don’t have to think about it when playing. And it is at this point when mechanics start to improve: as you no longer have to make decisions on the fly, your mind is free to think about making workers constantly, keeping your minerals low, avoiding supply blocks, and watching the minimap. This is how you increase your APM without spamming.
Unfortunately, the strategy forum in its current state is not conducive for this method of practicing. A quick search for [G] reveals that almost every Protoss build order guide is either outdated or gimmicky! In the Standard Play series, I am not attempting to create anything new here or get something named after myself; my goal is to give players an up-to-date, comprehensive gameplan that can be done in every game against every opponent. These are builds where you go in the game thinking “I can win if I execute well”, not “I can win if my opponent doesn’t scout this” or “I can win if my opponent has never seen this before”. You will not have to worry about whether you need to change your build completely when you lose, because there is no hard counter. History Leading to this Build Ever since day 9 of the Starcraft 2 beta, Protoss players have been complaining about the strength of the marauder. How was it possible that spamming a 125 mineral 50 gas unit, the Protoss player’s favorite strategy against Terran for 12 years, was now hard countered by some guys with grenade launchers? As players gained more experience with Starcraft 2, they quickly discovered the strength of a marine/marauder centered early game. Because barracks units benefited from three relatively cheap upgrades that could be gotten early on, a bio army would always be able to defeat a gateway army of equal value. Terran players took advantage of this dominance of the barracks over the gateway to either finish the game early with a 3 barracks “I hope he misses his force field” rush, or take map control and expand first with the goal of eventually getting medivacs to further strengthen his army. The result? A ton of balance complaints by Protoss players.
So what was Protoss to do in response? The answer had to be some form of AOE, as the bio ball melted through pure gateway units too quickly. It was around August-September when the Korean player NEXGenius began to gain recognition for his skill in PvT. By using good sentry micro to hold off early rushes, he was able to expand relatively early off of a 2 gate robo opening and then tech to colossus afterwards. Armed with a range 9 unit that does splash damage, the bio ball didn’t look so scary anymore. In a series of games against the likes of oGsEnsnare and MakaPrime, NEXGenius demonstrated that as long as the Terran player does not have a macro advantage, Protoss could not lose a straight up battle against the once feared bio ball. With the fall of the bio ball (and the introduction of the colossus + HT combination), the balance of the matchup shifted in Protoss’ favor.
Then came qxc and SeleCT, who exploited the colossus-based army’s lack of mobility to defeat their Protoss opponents in IEM New York and MLG DC respectively. While marines and marauders could no longer stim and attack move through a colossus-based army, their mobility and efficiency in small groups made them excellent tools for harass. The medivac’s healing meant that a drop was almost always cost effective against freshly warped in units, and its speed allowed for a retreat before a larger army could come clean it up. While the Protoss army was busy defending against drops, Terran took advantage of their complete map control by attacking key locations with the main bio force.
And so, Terran players with high APM enjoyed tremendous success in their TvP games by repeated drops to overwhelm their Protoss opponents’ multitasking ability. Eventually the Protoss player would crack under the pressure and leave an opening for marauders to come in and right click on a Nexus. The MM drop was no longer something you did occasionally when you saw an opening; it was something you did over and over to create openings. All of this pressure allowed Terran to expand with impunity and use their planetary fortresses to secure a huge economic lead. With the introduction of this high APM aggressive style, all of a sudden it seemed like Terran was Bisu and Protoss was Savior: spread too thin to defend against the constant harass.
In order to adapt to this aggressive style of TvP, Protoss players had to modify their strategies a bit. The modern colossus push incorporates a faster blink and a delayed third base to defend against harassment.
Overview Note: Because PvT has a greater variety of strategies than PvZ, this thread will focus on the most standard macro game of gateway + colossus vs MMM + vikings. Deviations from this will be scouted by an observer before you commit to anything.
The plan is to open up with 2 gate robo to secure a fast expansion with sentries. Colossus tech will follow very quickly, with upgrades coming soon after. You will mass up units until you have blink, at which point your army not only has the mobility to defend against drops, but also becomes immune to viking harass vs your colossi. The mobility of your army allows you to push out and set up proxy pylons, a third base, etc. From here you use the range of your colossi and maneuverability of your blink stalkers to pick off units and whittle down the Terran player’s army as you push across the map. On 6 gases, you will either add another robo for more colossi or tech to high Templars depending on the Terran’s unit composition.
The Opening You can get to the midgame using any 2 gate robo build you like. My favorite one is Genius’ build from this thread due to its high sentry count. In CecilSunkure’s format, with the usual disclaimer that 18 assimilator vs 19 assimilator isn’t important, chrono boost mostly on probes, etc:
9 Pylon
13 Gateway, scout
14 Assimilator
16 Pylon
17 Cybernetics Core
18 Assimilator
@100% Cybernetics Core: Stalker(chrono boost), Warpgate research
23 Pylon
@100% Stalker: Sentry
27 Robotics Facility
28 Gateway
@100% Sentry: 2nd Sentry
32 Pylon
@100% Robotics Facility: Observer (chrono boost)
@100% Warpgate: convert Gateways to Warpgates, 2 Sentries
34 Pylon
@100% Observer: fly it to the Terran’s base
36 Nexus (note: you usually can't get this vs pressure, but it's a free expansion vs Terrans who don't pressure)
React to observer scouting
Early Game Scouting This is done in 3 steps, to determine whether your opponent is opening with MM or tech. 1. The scouting probe: what you’re mainly looking for here is the marine count. If the barracks adds a tech lab after a single marine pops, it’s a MM build. If the barracks continues to make marines instead, you can’t rule out MM but you should begin to suspect a tech build. If you see no gas, be wary of proxy barracks. 2. The stalker poke: Take your first stalker and attack with it. Skip this step if you saw 1 marine + tech lab, as not only do you already know what he’s doing, he can get concussive shell in time to kill this stalker AND you need to be home in case of a reaper. Risky on far positions for the same reasons. You’re looking for a bunker to confirm a tech build, or a marauder without concussive shell if they went for multiple marines to hide their tech lab from your first probe. It’s fine to skip this step if you feel like it’s too risky, as your observer is so early. See that bunker? It's clearly not a marauder opening, so go ahead and take the 36 Nexus.
3. The observer: This reveals exactly what build you’re up against.
Reacting to Scouting Now that I’ve told you how to scout, there are some adjustments you can make based on what you see. I didn’t make build order adjustments as clear in the PvZ thread so this should give you a better idea of how to adjust your build to scouting.
36 Nexus: you usually won’t be able to get this against a good Terran if he opened MM, so just wait for your immortal and more zealots/stalkers. Against delayed marauder pressure (which is very rare because people usually attack with their first 2 marauders), you can just cancel. If you get pressured heavily and can’t expand even after the first immortal is out, you might as well spend the built up minerals on a 3rd gate. You can usually get a nexus on 44 supply vs 2 rax.
3/8/11 update: The most common rush that prevents the 36 nexus is the 1 marine, 2 marauder, 1-2 SCV poke. Every good Terran player who opens up MM will do this. It hits when you have 1 stalker and 1 sentry so your response to this is to force field your ramp. If he sends the SCV or marine first, you can let it come up and focus it while blocking everything else; if he sends a marauder first, you're better off blocking off everything. Meanwhile you wait for your 2nd sentry and chrono boost an immortal. If you're on close positions, you can make a zealot while the core is building to avoid having to pull a few probes against this.
edit: guide is mainly for playing vs MMM, so spoilered less crucial parts for length
Scouting probe makes you suspicious of proxy barracks: You probably don’t want to go robo before 2nd gate here, right? Scout the popular proxy locations and leave your probe or stalker outside his base to check for the mass SCV pull.
@100% Robotics Facility: if you knew from step 1 or 2 of scouting that you’re up against a MM build, you can go immortal before observer to get your expo up a bit faster against MM pressure. If you have a stalker at a watch tower and you see there’s no pressure coming despite a MM opening, then your opponent is bad and you might as well take the 36 nexus before immortal.
2 Sentries after Warpgates are done: if you saw a bunker and know it’s a tech build, you may want to think about think before you warp. This 1 stalker 4 sentry opening is fine vs MM and banshee builds, but if his tech build turned out to be a tank rush, then you’re really wishing you made mineral units instead of sentries here.
Observer sees starport producing without a tech lab: it’s a fast drop. Check for a tech lab on the factory to determine what kind of drop it is. If it’s blue flame hellions, get ready to play the best Starcraft of your life because that’s what it’ll take to win.
Observer sees Synystyr’s Anti Colossus Build: take a guess as to whether you should follow the rest of this build.
Observer sees mech: I don’t face this enough to know what to do, but I heard you can use any unit composition you want vs this. Check out naniwa vs goody on LT for this.
Observer sees MM and expansion: this means you’re playing the standard macro game that the rest of this thread is covering, so move on to the next section.
Mid Game So your Nexus is warping in and your observer just saw an expansion protected by bunkers.
Guess what that means – no pressure soon, so drop a Robotics Bay instantly. If he does attack, he has 6 less marauders than he would without the expo so you're still safe. Now assume constant probe/pylon production as usual and warp in zealots and stalkers while building the following:
While Robotics Bay is building: 3rd Gateway if you don’t already have it
I tend to delay the range upgrade for a bit because if the Terran player attacks early, I don’t like the idea of paying 200/200 for an upgrade that affects 1 unit in my army. From here the build can diverge in a few different ways.
This is a more aggressive timing attack you can go for if you see anything that suggests late vikings, or if you’re on close positions/small maps. Or you can use it defensively against a 6 barracks all-in. You add a 4th gateway and push out when you have 3 colossi to set up a proxy pylon close to their base. Once you have 4 colossi, begin poking at their natural expo, possibly adding a 5th and 6th gateway back at home for reinforcements. You can stop at 44 probes if you want to get aggressive as soon as possible, or 52 probes if you want to get most aggressive at 5 colossi and 6 gates, or 60 probes if you just want to use this to pressure and transition into late game.
This version is somewhat all-in, as it skips the twilight council and blink in order to push before the Terran can get a lot of vikings. If it doesn’t do significant damage, your lack of a twilight council means you will have a very difficult time getting to the late game. As such, it's less effective on farther positions.
Twilight council, blink, +2 weapons: This is the safest way to play the PvT mid game, so I will call this standard play.
As mentioned in the history section earlier, the Protoss army’s lack of mobility is exposed by drop harass. Without increasing your mobility in some way, it will be impossible to defend three bases against aggressive harassment. Blink not only gives you the mobility needed to take a third base, it has the added bonus of restricting viking movement: if vikings want to hit your colossi, they can no longer do so without bringing the rest of the bio ball with them. It only takes a single good blink against viking harass vs your colossi, drop harass vs your buildings/probes, or retreating units after a battle for the research to pay for itself. Charge is a very good upgrade as well, but its purpose is to deal with kiting, which isn’t really a problem until later in the game when HTs replace sentries as your gas unit. As mobility is so important against any kind of harassment, be it mutas or MM drops, I feel that getting blink early is the best way to play a colossus-based midgame.
The build should go something like this:
Twilight Council and 4th Gateway in whichever order you want
@100% Twilight Council: Blink, +2 Weapons or +1 Armor
@20%-50% Blink: Nexus or 5th and 6th Gateways
@100% Blink: push out and get whatever you didn’t pick in the previous step
Meanwhile you are using producing constant chrono-boosted colossi and warping in stalkers/zealots/sentries.
Going for the faster nexus is a lot like the “36 Nexus” step in the early game: sure you can’t actually defend it yet, but what if he doesn’t attack? You can just cancel the nexus if it does get attacked or get a free expansion if it doesn’t. By the time you can’t cancel anymore, it won’t matter as blink will be done. Making a 5th and 6th gateway instead gives you a stronger 2 base push, so I prefer it on maps or positions where it’s hard to take a third base.
+1 Armor is cheaper than +2 Weapons and gives you the option to go double forge later. +2 Weapons gives you a stronger timing attack.
The completion of blink gives you mobility, so use that as your cue to move out. By taking map control, you move any points of engagement to the Terran’s side of the map so your third should be safe. From here, refer to Engagement Tactics.
Benchmark: if no major battles have happened yet, around 16 minutes you should be very close to maxed, have +2 Weapons, and have a third base.
you take a small risk to set up an even stronger 3 base push than you would have with the standard build. Make sure you check for the 6 barracks no factory all-in with your observer before you do this. This is my build of choice nowadays and could become the standard one day, as it’s almost unstoppable if you don’t die to a timing attack.
If you have a favorable engagement early on like in game 2 of ZeeRax vs Strelok, I believe you should play this version every time as there's no longer the risk of a timing attack. Even if you don't take an early lead, game 3 of ZeeRax vs blur shows that if you go double forge, all you have to do is barely survive the attack and you win.
@90% Nexus: transfer probes, 7th and 8th Gateway, 2nd Robotics Facility
@100% +2 Weapons/Armor: push out and start +3 Weapons/Armor
Warning: this version is not for those with weak mechanics! Yes, you will have to hit perfect force fields, never go above 500 minerals, and play scrappy if you want to survive a big attack that hits when you’re vulnerable. But if you do survive or don’t get attacked, then the rest of the game is pretty much easy mode.
I never tried this but it looked very effective vs Byun. Take the 4 colossus/4 gate/+1 build and remove the forge in favor of more gates and getting up to 10 sentries. Then use force fields as shown in oGsMC The Doughnut Hole
Defensive Positioning The main tactic you need to worry about is where the Terran drops your main, pulls all of your units there, and then kills your expansion with his real army. To deal with this before blink, you’ll have to split your units. Keep a group of stalkers in your main near a likely drop path and put everything else by your expansion. Meanwhile, use a probe and an observer to scout for an attack from the Terran’s ground army. At your expansion, keep your zealots and immortal in front if you have one while everything else stays back.
This is pretty much your defensive position, though I would've liked to have either another probe checking the watch tower or better observer positioning to see his main army.
You don’t need that many stalkers in your main since you want to focus down the medivacs as soon as they appear on your mini map. In the case that they do get multiple medivacs in and drop more units than your stalkers can handle, pull 1 or 2 colossi to help out. Stalkers should focus down medivacs while freshly warped in zealots tank damage for the colossi. Engagement Tactics Whether you get attacked at 1 stalker/1 immortal/2 zealots/4 sentries or you push at 200/200 with 6 colossi, this is how you deal with stim + 1a: 1. Before the battle starts, position all of your zealots at the front and make a guardian shield. 2. Use force fields to cut the army in half and trap the closer half next to your zealots. This is different from engaging an army in PvZ because you have more zealots against Terran and their units are much more fragile than roaches. As a result, you want to keep them close so that they are subjected to your zealots’ awesome DPS. 3. Blink under vikings if if mid or late game. 4. If you still have energy, make another line of force fields behind the other half. 5. Blink when they retreat if mid or late game. If you find yourself very stalker-heavy, then use PvZ engagement tactics instead while you build your zealot count back up.
How to force field early on in PvT
Army positioning and force field usage Notice the stalkers positioned under the vikings, colossi at the back, zealots at the front, and force fields sandwiching half of the MM between my zealots
Pushing: your goal is to micro your colossi and blink to outmaneuver the Terran army. For the most part, this means poking at the army with colossi to get free hits and pulling back when vikings come. If the vikings follow, drag them into a spot where you can blink in your stalkers.
To get the most use out of your units, I recommend a 3 hotkey setup: 1 group for zealots and sentries 1 group for colossi 1 group for stalkers
As you may expect, the micro can be pretty difficult if you want to maximize the effectiveness of your units. You can get away with a 2 hotkey setup if you want to keep the same mechanics between PvT and PvZ, but having a third hotkey will let you do more with your stalkers, and I do occasionally pull off micro that can only be done with a 3 hotkey setup. There's also another 2 hotkey setup where you put stalkers in 1 group and everything else in another group, which makes it slightly more difficult to micro colossi but gives you another hotkey for an observer/warp prism/HTs. This setup and the 3 hotkey setup give you the best defensive positioning and stalker utility. Pick whichever setup suits you the best given the pros and cons.
Late Game Transition So you’ve made your first push and while you didn’t win the game yet, you secured your third base. What now? On 3 bases, I would first get a 7th and 8th gateway. If you don’t have charge yet, get that. Here are some guidelines for which other buildings to get:
-See double starport? Make a Templar Archives. -See double starport but you’ve killed a ton of vikings already? You can go Templar Archives here as well, but making another Robotics Facility is also an option. -See ghosts or only a single Starport? I’d add a 2nd Robotics Facility. -Did you go single Forge + Twilight Council and get 1/1 upgrades? Now is the time to add another Forge. -Have a ton of gas to burn but you see ghosts already? Might as well make a Dark Shrine.
Any time there are ghosts, add an observer to one of your main army hotkeys.
By the time you’re on 4 bases, there’s no reason not to have a Templar Archives and a 2nd Robotics Facility regardless of what you chose to add on 3 bases, regardless of how many ghosts/vikings you see, etc. I also don’t see any reason not to have a Dark Shrine, as 250 gas is nothing at that point. In fact, even add some cannons and extra gates just to handle drops. Once you have a strong economy supporting the production of colossi and Khaydarin Amulet Templars, you are more or less invincible against bio if you have storms, so add an observer to your army just in case of EMP. Just keep pushing and expanding, and the game should be pretty straight forward from there.
Is a Terran player QQing about balance? This is probably what he's thinking about.
If your opponent is ridiculously good at late game TvP, which he will need to be in order to not die after Khaydarin Amulet is done, consider turtling with cannons once you’re on 5-6 bases and teching to carriers. By that point you are swimming in so many resources that you can hold off attacks using nothing but warped in Templars and chargelots from your 20 warpgates. The cannons are there to prevent cloaked ghosts from doing pre-emptive EMPs. See this thread regarding the power of the carrier/HT composition: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189020
And there you go, a complete gameplan for standard PvT! Replays Watch this game. It's epic. I misread his main army's position due to bad scouting and relaxed on the defensive positioning, which resulted in him killing my natural expansion to gain a huge lead. Normally that kind of mistake should be game ending against a player of this caliber, right? I thought so too, but what happened next could only be explained by the power of double forge. Watch as my well-upgraded units win battle after battle and slowly get me back into the game!
Not the closest game out there, but this is the best replay to show the utility of the 3 hotkey setup. Look how many free kills I was able to get just from planning out my hotkeys well.
Finally got a game vs a famous player! I went for the standard build here since double forge doesn't make sense on close positions, and I got supply blocked too many times to do the 4 colossus/4 gate/+1 timing.
In the time it takes you to answer the question “how should I play each of these 10 different builds against 2 rax expand?”, you could instead answer the question “how should I play my one build against 10 different builds that Terran can do?”
You are the wind beneath my wings :O
This seriously helps a plat toss out here, PvT is my worst matchup, I hate marauders FORCE FIELDS FOREVER!!!
On February 26 2011 10:18 Techno wrote: This build order should be obsolete within a couple weeks. Terran's are learning time and time again that Bio past the 10 minute mark is a waste.
My recommendation for Terrans:
I think the new hotness for Protoss will be Starport openings.
High Templar - Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
So suddenly Terran has forgotten all about tanks???
Even though I'm just a plat toss player, I tend to follow a 3 gate robo with a fast ob to check out for 2 things
1) Expansion 2) Unit composition
Closely followed would be a robo bay, forge and twilight in that order once I put down my nexus. My next aim is to have +1 weapons when my range is done.
This is good stuff. You seem pretty knowledgeable, what do you think of getting charge and stargate units instead of blink? i like it a lot and it seems that it would be even better if the HT Nerf went through.
On February 26 2011 09:23 iamke55 wrote: If it’s blue flame hellions, get ready to play the best Starcraft of your life because that’s what it’ll take to win.
On February 26 2011 11:38 Gecko wrote: This is good stuff. You seem pretty knowledgeable, what do you think of getting charge and stargate units instead of blink? i like it a lot and it seems that it would be even better if the HT Nerf went through.
On February 26 2011 09:23 iamke55 wrote: If it’s blue flame hellions, get ready to play the best Starcraft of your life because that’s what it’ll take to win.
i lol'd
I've seen players have success going charge and phoenixes but I think non-stargate play is a little more standard, and I don't have enough experience with it. I only use it against 2 port banshee openings where they don't all-in because I already have the stargate.
If you want to play that style, I would suggest this thread where incontrol goes through a build to use that instead.
On February 26 2011 11:38 Gecko wrote: This is good stuff. You seem pretty knowledgeable, what do you think of getting charge and stargate units instead of blink? i like it a lot and it seems that it would be even better if the HT Nerf went through.
On February 26 2011 09:23 iamke55 wrote: If it’s blue flame hellions, get ready to play the best Starcraft of your life because that’s what it’ll take to win.
i lol'd
I've seen players have success going charge and phoenixes but I think non-stargate play is a little more standard, and I don't have enough experience with it. I only use it against 2 port banshee openings where they don't all-in because I already have the stargate.
If you want to play that style, I would suggest this thread where incontrol goes through a build to use that instead.
Thanks man. I tend to do both styles so i really appreciate having information on both
no pvp standard play =/. Awesome guide will definetely use this in combination with the 1gate FE, I send first scout cross position, if he's there 1gate FE if he's not 2gate robo <3 Thanks a lot man. By the way, how do you feel about 1gate Fast expand? I think its really viable especially with long rush distances.
very nice continuation of the series! Artosis also did a video a while back about dealing with a 1-basing terran's attack, which I think definitely applies to this topic:
Great guide. I'm going to nitpick a bit about your build and hopefully bring up a very interesting discussion point (at least for me). As you may very well be aware of, your build isn't a standard robo build in that you skip the first zealot and go for a relatively fast gas. Now, i'm going to discuss the 3 different types of 2/3 gate robo builds that i've seen/heard of. They differ in terms of how gas heavy they are.
1. Your build skips the zealot and goes for a very fast 2nd gas. This build will have 1 stalker and 2 sentries by the time warpgates finish. 2. The korean version of the 2/3 gate robo build gets a zealot and delays the gas slightly. This build will have 1 zealot, 1 stalker, and 2 sentries by the time warpgates finish. Users of this build include NexGenius and oGsMC. 3. The european version of this build gets a a zealot early and delays the gas a lot, around the same time as the robo facility. This build will have 2 zealots, 1 stalker, and 1 sentry by the time warpgates finish. Users of this build include Whitera and MouzMana.
So basically it's a spectrum of builds with your build on one end and the european version on the other. I have experience with the 2 later builds and I used to do your build when the game was new. Now, I have 2 critiques about your version of the build and I'd like to hear your thoughts about them. First is that without a zealot, you can be very vulnerable to a variety of early game builds, specifically when you spawn in close positions. An example would be MKP vs oGsMC on delta quadrant in GSL 3 where MKP proxied a barracks in the middle of the map. oGsMC held but only because he made a zealot, pulled probes, and microed very well.
The 2nd critque is that i feel as if you build would have a very hard time holding off a very fast marine/tank push, one that TSL_Rain has used and one that i hear is very popular on the Korean ladder. It's basically a 2 rax 1 fact push that moves out with 2 tanks. the purpose is to contain you with tanks and bunkers For an example of this push, refer to TSL_Rain vs TSL_Tester/Trickster in GSL 4. Basically gas units are close to useless in this situation beyond the first sentry for guardian shield. Because of your lack of the first zealot, your early gas, and your delayed 3rd gate, I believe you'd have a very difficult time breaking this push. When this push hits, you'll have 4 sentries, 3 of which will be dead weight. In fact, most europeans used to do the korean 3 gate robo, but I believe they switched partly because of this very reason.
On February 27 2011 09:59 4kmonk wrote: Great guide. I'm going to nitpick a bit about your build and hopefully bring up a very interesting discussion point (at least for me). As you may very well be aware of, your build isn't a standard robo build in that you skip the first zealot and go for a relatively fast gas. Now, i'm going to discuss the 3 different types of 2/3 gate robo builds that i've seen/heard of. They differ in terms of how gas heavy they are.
1. Your build skips the zealot and goes for a very fast 2nd gas. This build will have 1 stalker and 2 sentries by the time warpgates finish. 2. The korean version of the 2/3 gate robo build gets a zealot and delays the gas slightly. This build will have 1 zealot, 1 stalker, and 2 sentries by the time warpgates finish. Users of this build include NexGenius and oGsMC. 3. The european version of this build gets a a zealot early and delays the gas a lot, around the same time as the robo facility. This build will have 2 zealots, 1 stalker, and 1 sentry by the time warpgates finish. Users of this build include Whitera and MouzMana.
So basically it's a spectrum of builds with your build on one end and the european version on the other. I have experience with the 2 later builds and I used to do your build when the game was new. Now, I have 2 critiques about your version of the build and I'd like to hear your thoughts about them. First is that without a zealot, you can be very vulnerable to a variety of early game builds, specifically when you spawn in close positions. An example would be MKP vs oGsMC on delta quadrant in GSL 3 where MKP proxied a barracks in the middle of the map. oGsMC held but only because he made a zealot, pulled probes, and microed very well.
The 2nd critque is that i feel as if you build would have a very hard time holding off a very fast marine/tank push, one that TSL_Rain has used and one that i hear is very popular on the Korean ladder. It's basically a 2 rax 1 fact push that moves out with 2 tanks. the purpose is to contain you with tanks and bunkers For an example of this push, refer to TSL_Rain vs TSL_Tester/Trickster in GSL 4. Basically gas units are close to useless in this situation beyond the first sentry for guardian shield. Because of your lack of the first zealot, your early gas, and your delayed 3rd gate, I believe you'd have a very difficult time breaking this push. When this push hits, you'll have 4 sentries, 3 of which will be dead weight. In fact, most europeans used to do the korean 3 gate robo, but I believe they switched partly because of this very reason.
I agree with this. The first zealot is usually very important and helpful; It can kill SCV's, marines, force bunkers along with a probe against tech builds (which they will need eventually, but this throws them off), etc.
On February 27 2011 09:59 4kmonk wrote: Great guide. I'm going to nitpick a bit about your build and hopefully bring up a very interesting discussion point (at least for me). As you may very well be aware of, your build isn't a standard robo build in that you skip the first zealot and go for a relatively fast gas. Now, i'm going to discuss the 3 different types of 2/3 gate robo builds that i've seen/heard of. They differ in terms of how gas heavy they are.
1. Your build skips the zealot and goes for a very fast 2nd gas. This build will have 1 stalker and 2 sentries by the time warpgates finish. 2. The korean version of the 2/3 gate robo build gets a zealot and delays the gas slightly. This build will have 1 zealot, 1 stalker, and 2 sentries by the time warpgates finish. Users of this build include NexGenius and oGsMC. 3. The european version of this build gets a a zealot early and delays the gas a lot, around the same time as the robo facility. This build will have 2 zealots, 1 stalker, and 1 sentry by the time warpgates finish. Users of this build include Whitera and MouzMana.
So basically it's a spectrum of builds with your build on one end and the european version on the other. I have experience with the 2 later builds and I used to do your build when the game was new. Now, I have 2 critiques about your version of the build and I'd like to hear your thoughts about them. First is that without a zealot, you can be very vulnerable to a variety of early game builds, specifically when you spawn in close positions. An example would be MKP vs oGsMC on delta quadrant in GSL 3 where MKP proxied a barracks in the middle of the map. oGsMC held but only because he made a zealot, pulled probes, and microed very well.
The 2nd critque is that i feel as if you build would have a very hard time holding off a very fast marine/tank push, one that TSL_Rain has used and one that i hear is very popular on the Korean ladder. It's basically a 2 rax 1 fact push that moves out with 2 tanks. the purpose is to contain you with tanks and bunkers For an example of this push, refer to TSL_Rain vs TSL_Tester/Trickster in GSL 4. Basically gas units are close to useless in this situation beyond the first sentry for guardian shield. Because of your lack of the first zealot, your early gas, and your delayed 3rd gate, I believe you'd have a very difficult time breaking this push. When this push hits, you'll have 4 sentries, 3 of which will be dead weight. In fact, most europeans used to do the korean 3 gate robo, but I believe they switched partly because of this very reason.
Two very valid criticisms. Yes I am a little uncomfortable skipping the zealot on small maps and close positions due to the any kind of early poke with 2 SCVs, so it may be a good idea to revise the build and add a zealot. The zealot isn't free, however: it delays my 2nd gateway and robo by 100 minerals, which means I'd rather skip the zealot vs anything that hits late enough where I can stall with force fields until I get another production build online. Maybe you could skip the stalker and go straight for sentries when going zealot first, in order to get more production buildings as fast as possible.
As for fast tanks, yes my build is the weakest 2 gate robo in that situation for sure. I made a compromise though:
2 Sentries after Warpgates are done: if you saw a bunker and know it’s a tech build, you may want to think about think before you warp. This 1 stalker 4 sentry opening is fine vs MM and banshee builds, but if his tech build turned out to be a tank rush, then you’re really wishing you made mineral units instead of sentries here.
Unless someone does a tank rush that looks just like a marauder build from the start, my stalker poke would reveal a tech build before I warp in the 3rd and 4th sentries. There's still a gas build-up I can't spend which may or may not be game breaking for me, but I won't know for sure until I face someone doing Rain's build perfectly.
This is a great guide, as was your previous round, but I have to agree with some of the earlier posters... Amulet is being removed quite soon, so templars will need to be kept around for a bit, much in the way that sentries are used in the early game.
Observer sees starport producing without a tech lab: it’s a fast drop. Check for a tech lab on the factory to determine what kind of drop it is. If it’s blue flame hellions, get ready to play the best Starcraft of your life because that’s what it’ll take to win.
On February 26 2011 10:18 Techno wrote: This build order should be obsolete within a couple weeks. Terran's are learning time and time again that Bio past the 10 minute mark is a waste.
My recommendation for Terrans:
I think the new hotness for Protoss will be Starport openings.
Oh dear I want my 20 minutes back. This is a good example as to why GSL maps would be bad for SC2 ladder right now. Two players sitting in their base for 20 minutes just expanding and not interacting. One player leaves all units in a ball for an easy EMP. This replay isnt indicative of anything other than that we need to keep these small maps because players aren't ready for the grown up big kid maps
i wish someone could do the same with the terran strategy because now on the forum you only see fancy stuff like the iechoic build, not that i dislike this kind of strategy but sometimes it's good to have the basic one well explained.
Hi guise, just wanna say awesome guide with awesome posters like ichau and monk.
Was wondering if you guys would ever add an extra gate to make it 3 gate robo to bust down a 1 rax or 2 rax FE? Also even if he is going to some early aggression, wouldn't the extra gate mean that you can comfortably hold the expo without having to cancle in case of 3 rax? Also the guide says to crono out a colosus first but I have al;ways felt that a colosus with no range seems SO DAMN vulnerable to stimmed marauder.
Another question for the ballers, I know this is slightly off topic but in what situation would you opt to use the 3 gate expo as oposed to gate robo gate. I ask because 3 gate seem to be so standard now at the low master level.
I never try to win the game with 3 gate robo. It could work, but I don't see any reason to use it over other all-in builds that I have much more practice with, such as 4 gate or 3 gate void ray. Maybe you can win vs 1 rax expo by using a warp prism, but that relies on him putting a ton of bunkers at his front instead of just going pure units.
vs any kind of build with marauders, you're not going to take the expo before you have an immortal. Maybe I should leave that part outside of the spoiler to make it easier to see.
I get colossus first without range because 200/200 is too expensive to pay for a single unit. It feels very vulnerable dropping 500/400 the instant my robo bay finishes, so I'd rather save the range upgrade for later when I have 2-3 colossi so it's more worth the resources.
3 gate expo is the other standard pvt build and probably the better choice on maps with vulnerable expansions. You go stalker, 3 sentries, then more stalkers and deny the terran's expansion while expanding yourself, then either add a robo and play with the econ advantage, or make 6 more gates and all-in to take advantage of the other guy's delayed additional barracks resulting from his delayed expo.
On another note, I just beat SiN so I think adding that replay to the OP would give this guide a lot more credibility!
I like the idea behind this series. I'm not positive if a "standard" build order can stay that standard for long as the game evolves and patches come out, but this is a great place for people to go when looking to just get better at solid play. I think too many players on ladder suffer from that desire to be cute or gimmicky, when really they don't need to and they're just getting in their own way developmentally. I don't play protoss so this guide isn't immediately helpful for me but when I do make the time to buckle down and learn the race this will be a terrific resource. I hope you do these for other races too
But you know how you talked about canceling the nexus? Rather can going all in with 3 gate robo, would it be worthwhile to just have the 3rd gate there just incase so that you will have enough units to hold off a 3 rax?
Sorry if this is a noob ass question. It just feels like I am not delaying the expo by much at all.
iamke55 Also would you ever concider making a guide for 3 gate expo too? All the maps that comes to mind has very open expos anyway.
Yes some people do like to go 3 gate robo and then expand. The advantage of this is that you can skip the immortal and go straight for obs every time, but if they did anything other than fast marauder pressure, then your expo is delayed by 150 minerals. I still don't think you expand any earlier than you would with 2 gate robo + immortal, but 3 gate robo does make sense if you want to get a faster observer vs marauder pressure.
I won't write a guide for 3 gate expo because Alejandrisha already has one, and there's another version on Liquipedia. Not to mention I don't understand the build well enough, as I've only practiced the 3 gate -> 6 gate transition. If you choose to make a robo right after expanding, then it becomes the same thing as this build so everything in this guide after the opening applies to that situation too.
Most of the time, even if you go 3 gate robo, you still won't be able to hold your expansion against a 3 rax if they attack you at the correct timing.
The 3 gate robo immortal allin is quite good vs tech lab expands if they don't prepare for it well. As terran, you want at least 2 bunkers to defend it and stim finished if possible. You'd want 3 bunkers to be super safe, especially on maps like xelnaga. Also, I'd like to note that out of the 3 robo builds i've described before, iamke's is the weakest if you want to 3 gate robo allin.
As for 2/3 gate robo vs 3 gate builds, i would only recommend a 3 gate build only if you're quite certain your opponent is going for a bio based build. The 3 main standard protoss builds are 1 gate fe, 2/3 gate robo, and 3 gate expand. The advantage the 3 gate has over the other 2 is that it's slightly better vs early bio aggression and that it has more potential for aggression after an expansion. Imo it is the worst build of the 3 if your opponent is going a tech route.
Good job. Yep this looks like standard pvt, just like 2gate robo expo was in bw. I wrote a standard pvt for bw(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=94968). It has the middle road of the 3 aspects of units, tech, expand. The other main roads would be, 1gate expo gets around as many units and much quicker expo but later tech. 3gate expo gets more units, with around same expo timing, but no tech.
Rough look of timings: -quick expo is just after 6:00 with 5units+ob making -1immortal/ob/7units expo ~7min.
Have you tried going 1gate robo, and just making the immortal every time? Or even skip it for even earlier expo. Looks like the same amount of units you get. If not, try something like this: 9pylon, 13gate, 15gas, 18core, 19zealot, 22gas, 23wg+stalker, 25pylon, 27sent, 30robo, 31pylon, 32sent, immortal, warpunit, ob, expo
Your 3rd gateway looks a early also. Ideally produce constantly out of 2, then add 3rd when income is there to support it. Looks like pump probe+tech collosus+3gate is too much early.
Gas surplus midgame, timing push at 4collousus could go on 3gas/4gate/~40probes.
yea it would be nice to have more timing stuff like above mention 3rax.
The build order you suggested is something oGsMC has done in a couple of PvTs this season (against Byun Game 2 and Hyperdub I believe). So it's definitely a safe and viable opening in the highest level of play.
On March 07 2011 11:54 4kmonk wrote: Most of the time, even if you go 3 gate robo, you still won't be able to hold your expansion against a 3 rax if they attack you at the correct timing. .
Ok this REALLy bothers me Monk, I mean I thought that was the most solid safe opening in preparation for an expo possible, if this would MOST of the time die to a 3 rax timing, then what kinda of expo opening can you possibly do to not die?
I mean, KCDC's 1 gate expo was even able to hold in most occassions. Sorry if this is a noobish question.
Contrary to popular belief, 1 gate fe will hold later rushes like 3 rax much eaiser than a robo build. This is similar to how 15 hatch will hold 4 gates easier than 14 pool 14 gas. You get your expo earlier with the 1 gate fe so that econ will have kicked in by the time a 3 rax push can attack you. The strength of the 2 gate robo build is not the ability to get a safe expo up; it is the observer. The observer lets you scout and react efficiently to whatever the terran is doing. In fact, if I had maphacks, I would almost always 1 gate fe. One of the biggest weaknesses of the 1 gate expo is the lack of scouting you have mid game. Because of this lack of scouting, even though you have more econ, you might not know exactly what the terran is doing in his base. Thus you have to make guesses, use game sense, prepare for a board range of possibilities, and react inefficiently to most of them.
Here's another way to think about it. You're going for tech and econ with your robo + expo build. The terran is going for pure army with his 3 rax build. If you're able to hold off the 3 rax with a robo + expo build, then there's probably something wrong.
Fuk MOnk thats just mind blowing, I never read through the entire KCDC thread so my bad. But I have always thought that the earliest 3 rax attacks happen at around the 1st round of warp ins with 4 gates if going for a 1 gate expo.
Cuz I mean, if your expo is going to be in danger following a 3 gate robo, you might aswell go 1 gate robo each time for the ob, then expo there. Wouldn't that be more likely to hold of 3 rax too because of an earlier expansion?
No, that still can't hold off 3 rax. First of all, by the time the 3 rax hits, your 2nd nexus won't have begun mining, so it won't have begun paying for itself. Also, a robo costs more than a gateway, and isn't as effective as warpgates at holding off these attacks, because it can't warp instantly. Also, you get 2 gas and an obs with a robo build, 2 things you don't waste money on with a 1 gate fe.
Wait, so are you saying that anything that involves a robo is not going to hold a 3 rax? What about a 3 gate expo? I just did some tests with a friend of mine and you were totally right about it.
I wonder why pros don't opt for a 1 gate expo...
edit: sorry one more question, when you said 3 gate expo is not good for going against tech builds, do you mean because of no obs, I can't see what he is doing? If yes, I also wanna ask if you can do a 3 gate - hallucinate then expo, and was wondering if that would be worth it.
I heard from some people that its also worth it to push right UP the ramp to see what they got and if things don;t turn out you can always back off and sac the zealot or two.
The opening build is perfectly safe. If terran goes for any hardcore 1 base play you can easily cancel the nexus and defend it. You start the nexus so quickly because you don't want to be behind against a fast expanding build and there's no sure way to scout what he's doing before that observer.
Being forced to cancel an expo is so discouraging though. Fuk I wished we have better ways of scouting apart from spending 200 bucks in a robo. I judt did some tests and realised that even if you open 3 gate expo, the hallucination doesn't come out early enough to spot tech anyway. Makes me sad.
You will rarely have to cancel the expo... the vast majority of builds you can't expo against will have units trying to walk up your ramp before you even try to build a nexus in the first place. I updated the OP with how to play against the most common rush.
The idea behind the fast obs build is that you know how much and what type of pressure is coming with enough time to respond. 3-rax is a semi-all-in that, if defended, leaves the Terran player with no tech and limited economy. If your obs sees a 3-rax, you hold your ramp with forcefields while teching colossi. Then you win with equal economy and better tech.
Lurker coming out of the shadows to say that this (and your PvZ thread) are among the most useful threads I've seen on TL so far. Thanks for all your hard work!
This is a great guide and really appreciate the effort put into writing the standard builds. I plan to work on this style of build in my PvT.
I do have a question though. I'm hesitant to adopt this build because I've had a lot of success opening 3 gate expand with a really fast +1 armor. So far I haven't had any trouble with early bio pressure or bio + tank pressure. My main concern is not have an obs for cloak banshees but usually you can scout the tech play as described and get a cannon in the mineral line if need be.
Basically, am I just not seeing certain timing attacks at my level or they are just coming too late? I usually follow up my expansion with a robo and a little later a twilight council all the while my forge has been churning out upgrades. I've found my gateway units just won't die.
On March 10 2011 06:48 mordek wrote: This is a great guide and really appreciate the effort put into writing the standard builds. I plan to work on this style of build in my PvT.
I do have a question though. I'm hesitant to adopt this build because I've had a lot of success opening 3 gate expand with a really fast +1 armor. So far I haven't had any trouble with early bio pressure or bio + tank pressure. My main concern is not have an obs for cloak banshees but usually you can scout the tech play as described and get a cannon in the mineral line if need be.
Basically, am I just not seeing certain timing attacks at my level or they are just coming too late? I usually follow up my expansion with a robo and a little later a twilight council all the while my forge has been churning out upgrades. I've found my gateway units just won't die.
Thanks for any and all input/criticism.
yeah I've been feeling the same way actually. Especially when I found out that Alejandro's 3gate expo build could just press up and take out a teching terran relatively easily with some good forcefields.
And yeah i feel the same way about +1 armour. Couple with gaurdian shield, your units are just so damn beef.
Hey guys.. I've been having a lot of trouble against terran lately. They're doing this 5 rax 1 base play with MM and I cant do anything against it. Please note I'm only a bronze league player but I've been doing very well lately until losing 3 matches in 1 night to this 5 rax garbage.
I scout with my probe and see pretty standard stuff, 1 rax, another 2 on the way usually. The marine they get out forces my probe away or kills it so I can never know if they're going 5 rax MM or marine marauder medivac bio play. Usually when I see 3 rax I go 3 gate robo tech for collosus but if they get 5 rax I have no chance whatsoever. I usually chrono boost an observer out ASAP, but by the time I get it out 5 rax is already up and I'm done. Here's a replay.. can anyone give me some advice?
On March 10 2011 13:22 Perplex wrote: Hey guys.. I've been having a lot of trouble against terran lately. They're doing this 5 rax 1 base play with MM and I cant do anything against it. Please note I'm only a bronze league player but I've been doing very well lately until losing 3 matches in 1 night to this 5 rax garbage.
I scout with my probe and see pretty standard stuff, 1 rax, another 2 on the way usually. The marine they get out forces my probe away or kills it so I can never know if they're going 5 rax MM or marine marauder medivac bio play. Usually when I see 3 rax I go 3 gate robo tech for collosus but if they get 5 rax I have no chance whatsoever. I usually chrono boost an observer out ASAP, but by the time I get it out 5 rax is already up and I'm done. Here's a replay.. can anyone give me some advice?
p.s. I know i'm not good, I'm a new player trying my best to learn. Sorry.
The best way to deal with that is quite simply forcefield use. Any type of 3-5 rax bio aggression is easily shut down by a single forcefield on your ramp (unless you're playing on a map like scrap station, which requires 2 forcefields to completely block your ramp).
If they wait for medivac tech before pushing, then your chronoboosted observer should have enough time to spot the starport with ample time so that is a non-issue (If that is the case, you have time to get colossi out to kill the eventual push).
The logic behind forcefield is simple: it only takes 1 forcefield to nullify an entire 3-5 rax bio push for 15 seconds. With 4 sentries (which you should get with this build before that kind of bio timing), you can indefinitely forcefield out his army. If he keeps trying to push up, you just reinforce your army since you're in your base. He cannot reinforce as fast because he'd have to rally across the map. So eventually you'll be able to gather a large enough force to roll his force over. If he's dumb enough, he'll let you forcefield pieces of his army on your ramp and give you free kills.
The key here is to keep a vigilant watch over your ramp and be ready to drop a forcefield the second you see your opponent try to walk up your ramp. Hope that helps.
I find If I just pull 3 probes, I can stop the 1 marine 2 marauder + 2 scv push, Nexus takes some damage and the probes usually die, but I find having the nexus go up significantly earlier worth saccing a few probes
On March 10 2011 06:48 mordek wrote: This is a great guide and really appreciate the effort put into writing the standard builds. I plan to work on this style of build in my PvT.
I do have a question though. I'm hesitant to adopt this build because I've had a lot of success opening 3 gate expand with a really fast +1 armor. So far I haven't had any trouble with early bio pressure or bio + tank pressure. My main concern is not have an obs for cloak banshees but usually you can scout the tech play as described and get a cannon in the mineral line if need be.
Basically, am I just not seeing certain timing attacks at my level or they are just coming too late? I usually follow up my expansion with a robo and a little later a twilight council all the while my forge has been churning out upgrades. I've found my gateway units just won't die.
Thanks for any and all input/criticism.
yeah I've been feeling the same way actually. Especially when I found out that Alejandro's 3gate expo build could just press up and take out a teching terran relatively easily with some good forcefields.
And yeah i feel the same way about +1 armour. Couple with gaurdian shield, your units are just so damn beef.
Lost my first PvT in about 10 games of that matchup. It's important to not delay the robo very much and get greedy. My observer got to his base, saw a starport and then 30 MM and 4-5 Medivacs drop in my main. There were other problems with my play but I was expecting a bio push at the front and having the observer faster might have won me the game as he was quite all in with the drop.
Thank you very much for this guide. The advice is right on the head and has got me thinking a lot. :D
Practice the crap out of a solid standard build and I can fiddle with cute stuff once I know the standard play inside out. I'd lost sight of that a little lately... which is probably where my PvT has been going to hell in a handbasket.
The Artosis thread was awesome as well. Not seen that before.
At the risk of repetition, thanks again for taking the time to put this together, dig out the links and make it so readable.
Wow! I've been looking for something like this lately. I really want to have 1 build for each matchup that I just hammer away with on ladder. Thank you!
I like this since I ve been having issues with my timings myself vs. Terran. I have decided to play the same build every game (race dependant) for a while now and I will be using this for sure.
I play this way almost all the time with only a few small deviations. I always open with a zealot in the build to be a bit more resistant against various pushes, it also really helps for me to put up a little early pressure so i can punish the extremely greedy builds. My most favorite opening is actually 2 zealots before stalker and not scouting with a probe at all. Between the zealot, stalker poke and observer there is nothing I can miss that can be worrysome anyway and not scouting saves about 100 minerals (estimate).
Depending on spawn positions I can also deviate a little from this build by actually going a kcdc style expand if it's far spawns. 2 gate robo can be a little behind against a good 1 rax FE imo as you can't pressure them and might have trouble stopping their 4+ rax push before you get colo out.
Finally I must say I love the insight about getting blink before charge. I used to get charge first all the time but blink being cheaper and countering harass + vikings so nicely really makes it better. Zealots don't need to move in fast anyway they just need to soak hits and do some damage, stalker positioning is far more important indeed.
I think the only thing this guide needs to be complete is a little extra information on how to deal with some other common things terran do. For example how do you deviate when you're up against mech? (carriers?) And how do you respond to some of the more popular 1 base pushes from terran, raven/banshee pushes and blueflame hellion drops/pushes in particular.
How do you handle 2 base 3-4 rax push at around 8:30 - 9:00 (with stim + CS). Terran can get up to 9 marauders + 15 marine, I find 2 gate robo expand is at it weakest point during this timing window.
It is scoutable by obs, you will see lots of MM near his base with your 1st obs, and he already expanded (2 rax FE). if you cancel your expo and build up unit, I think you will be far behind. However if you insist on expanding, you will not be able to hold that timing window..
edit: nevermind, just rewatch your replay and you handle it well
very nice guide, my standard is the 1 gate fe, but i sometimes can run into tricky all in play, specially close positions. think i'm going to start doing what theawesomeall does.
On March 13 2011 08:07 Markwerf wrote: Excellent guide and series.
I play this way almost all the time with only a few small deviations. I always open with a zealot in the build to be a bit more resistant against various pushes, it also really helps for me to put up a little early pressure so i can punish the extremely greedy builds. My most favorite opening is actually 2 zealots before stalker and not scouting with a probe at all. Between the zealot, stalker poke and observer there is nothing I can miss that can be worrysome anyway and not scouting saves about 100 minerals (estimate).
Depending on spawn positions I can also deviate a little from this build by actually going a kcdc style expand if it's far spawns. 2 gate robo can be a little behind against a good 1 rax FE imo as you can't pressure them and might have trouble stopping their 4+ rax push before you get colo out.
Finally I must say I love the insight about getting blink before charge. I used to get charge first all the time but blink being cheaper and countering harass + vikings so nicely really makes it better. Zealots don't need to move in fast anyway they just need to soak hits and do some damage, stalker positioning is far more important indeed.
I think the only thing this guide needs to be complete is a little extra information on how to deal with some other common things terran do. For example how do you deviate when you're up against mech? (carriers?) And how do you respond to some of the more popular 1 base pushes from terran, raven/banshee pushes and blueflame hellion drops/pushes in particular.
In my experience robo builds are not behind at all vs 1 rax FE. Tyler even does 3 gate robo and looks to be even with his opponent (see Tyler vs Jinro game 1).
Open the spoiler tags, I linked to some threads about stopping 1 base attacks and referenced a game Naniwa vs Goody that shows how to play against mech. I can't give you a standard response against mech since it's too rare for me to practice against, but the few times I ran into it I saw that pretty much any unit combination is decent as long as you cut down on the sentry count.
I did just lose to a 2 rax marine rush, but, it was sort of my fault. I did scout it, I just didn't really react properly at all. Stuck to this build too closely when I should have reacted to what I scouted. BUT, I feel like I know how to open and proceed against terran now, I feel like I have all the tools, I have the opening to get me the intel I need and then I can just react from there.
Been practicing this build and using it as a good guide against Terran MMM pushes.
One question I had after watching an oGSMC game (forgot which one exactly) was given that more n more Terrans are expecting Colossus and almost overproducing on the Vikings, is it easier to transition to High Templar?? If so, how would I transition (like the best time to start building twighlit etcc)....HT seem much more effective against MMM and also harder to counter too.
On April 18 2011 10:56 bankai wrote: Been practicing this build and using it as a good guide against Terran MMM pushes.
One question I had after watching an oGSMC game (forgot which one exactly) was given that more n more Terrans are expecting Colossus and almost overproducing on the Vikings, is it easier to transition to High Templar?? If so, how would I transition (like the best time to start building twighlit etcc)....HT seem much more effective against MMM and also harder to counter too.
IMO players are better off learning how to micro blink stalkers against MMM/viking. If you win the ground battle, you pretty much get all of their vikings for free. You should never get high templars before you have 6 assimilators going, especially now that there is no Khaydarin Amulet upgrade.
On March 13 2011 08:07 Markwerf wrote: Excellent guide and series.
I play this way almost all the time with only a few small deviations. I always open with a zealot in the build to be a bit more resistant against various pushes, it also really helps for me to put up a little early pressure so i can punish the extremely greedy builds. My most favorite opening is actually 2 zealots before stalker and not scouting with a probe at all. Between the zealot, stalker poke and observer there is nothing I can miss that can be worrysome anyway and not scouting saves about 100 minerals (estimate).
Depending on spawn positions I can also deviate a little from this build by actually going a kcdc style expand if it's far spawns. 2 gate robo can be a little behind against a good 1 rax FE imo as you can't pressure them and might have trouble stopping their 4+ rax push before you get colo out.
Finally I must say I love the insight about getting blink before charge. I used to get charge first all the time but blink being cheaper and countering harass + vikings so nicely really makes it better. Zealots don't need to move in fast anyway they just need to soak hits and do some damage, stalker positioning is far more important indeed.
I think the only thing this guide needs to be complete is a little extra information on how to deal with some other common things terran do. For example how do you deviate when you're up against mech? (carriers?) And how do you respond to some of the more popular 1 base pushes from terran, raven/banshee pushes and blueflame hellion drops/pushes in particular.
How do you know where terran is? Send 1 zealot to each base?
On April 18 2011 10:56 bankai wrote: Been practicing this build and using it as a good guide against Terran MMM pushes.
One question I had after watching an oGSMC game (forgot which one exactly) was given that more n more Terrans are expecting Colossus and almost overproducing on the Vikings, is it easier to transition to High Templar?? If so, how would I transition (like the best time to start building twighlit etcc)....HT seem much more effective against MMM and also harder to counter too.
IMO players are better off learning how to micro blink stalkers against MMM/viking. If you win the ground battle, you pretty much get all of their vikings for free. You should never get high templars before you have 6 assimilators going, especially now that there is no Khaydarin Amulet upgrade.
Cool, thanks for that! So by 'micro' i assume u mean blink under the vikings and target fire them?? Then FF half the MMM ball away, zealots at the front and Colossus at the back??
I have continued using this build and it has been really good so far but I am struggling most of all against MM pushes (3 rax or 4rax) and banshee harass around the 8-10min mark.
I know this was not part of the scope of your OP, but considering they are the most common two things I have seen from Terran openers, it would be great to know how to react to these using this build.
1) MM pushes - I dont have a problem getting my expansion down. I expand, then immediately get a 3rd gateway, then robo bay. Problem is when they push with 20marines 8maurauders (I think?)off a 3 rax expand, my colossus is only just coming out. So my question is, if I throw down my expansion, if I scout 2 rax/3rax/4 rax...how should I adjust?? Should I just get 4 or even 5 gateways first to defend and delay Colossus?
2) Banshee harass (around 7:30min) - Should I cancel expansion if I scout 1-1-1 cloaked banshees? If not, what is the most cost efficient way to defend and then transition to take advantage of the fact that Terran has invested into tech?
On March 19 2011 02:06 winedz wrote: How do you handle 2 base 3-4 rax push at around 8:30 - 9:00 (with stim + CS). Terran can get up to 9 marauders + 15 marine, I find 2 gate robo expand is at it weakest point during this timing window.
It is scoutable by obs, you will see lots of MM near his base with your 1st obs, and he already expanded (2 rax FE). if you cancel your expo and build up unit, I think you will be far behind. However if you insist on expanding, you will not be able to hold that timing window..
edit: nevermind, just rewatch your replay and you handle it well
Oh btw, I did watch these replays and see you fend it off, but I have tried this and not very confident I can hold this off in a similar situation. It sorta looked like the Terran pulled his guys back a bit which contributed to the push being fended off (might be just me thinking my micro cant do the same though ).
I think x2 forge work very well, 3 bases is the best way to execute this build with mass zealots and enough stalkers. Move out at 2/3 upgrade with charge lot, keep pressure and position for colossus.
On April 27 2011 15:34 hitman133 wrote: I think x2 forge work very well, 3 bases is the best way to execute this build with mass zealots and enough stalkers. Move out at 2/3 upgrade with charge lot, keep pressure and position for colossus.
If I go double forge, I assume that means I dont have cash to get Colossus? How many gateways do I get before getting the double forge? Will the effect of double forge even come about by the 8-10min mark??
Wtf why was this thread never bumped that much, I only found the PvZ guide T.T Anyways, thanks for this write up! Good outline for a general idea of PvT. One question though, I hate scouting 1 rax no gas with OC. How do you tell if it is a 5/6 Rax Marine all in or 1 rax FE? They both require completely different reactions, which if I do the wrong one I either lose or am behind economically.
Try to sneak the probe behind nat mineral line, the second tell can be SCV number, u should control Xelnaga tower to cancel expansion and stall with sentries (altough i think it would be delayed allin). The option that i do most common is camping probe at Ts natural and poking with stalker, u should see anything u want. U can chronoboost constantly your one gate and place nexus when u see him expand. Basically this way u can kite him for whole map and pressure/force more bunkers with stalkers if he really is expanding.
On May 31 2011 06:28 iTzAnglory wrote: Wtf why was this thread never bumped that much, I only found the PvZ guide T.T Anyways, thanks for this write up! Good outline for a general idea of PvT. One question though, I hate scouting 1 rax no gas with OC. How do you tell if it is a 5/6 Rax Marine all in or 1 rax FE? They both require completely different reactions, which if I do the wrong one I either lose or am behind economically.
After playing in MLG Columbus, I finally found the answer to this. You have to play 1 gate FE and play out the macro game vs fast expo, but get 4 gates ASAP so you can micro stalkers against the marine/scv all in. Everyone knows how to play fast expo vs fast expo so here's a replay where I hold off the 1 base marine rush: http://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.majorleaguegaming.com/replays/175-13109.sc2replay
On June 06 2011 23:19 ZaneZaneZane wrote: So this build hasn't died in any way has it? Or is it still very worthwhile to learn as a new Protoss player?
As a new Protoss player? Definitely. The build itself is fairly safe against a variety of openings. It's not greedy, or aggressive, so a good opponent can exploit that in a manner of ways, but it's definitely a good opener to start learning off with. Using the template provided in the OP as a guide, you'll eventually form a solid understanding of the potential of the Protoss race and its units, and can branch off into other builds from there.
On June 06 2011 23:19 ZaneZaneZane wrote: So this build hasn't died in any way has it? Or is it still very worthwhile to learn as a new Protoss player?
As a new Protoss player? Definitely. The build itself is fairly safe against a variety of openings. It's not greedy, or aggressive, so a good opponent can exploit that in a manner of ways, but it's definitely a good opener to start learning off with. Using the template provided in the OP as a guide, you'll eventually form a solid understanding of the potential of the Protoss race and its units, and can branch off into other builds from there.
Is it still "standard" though? I rarely see any pros using this build lately. Seems to have fallen out of favor. If it's not really being used, can it still be considered standard?
Nobody really uses this as a standard anymore except Kiwikaki and Tyler. The new, bigger maps make 1 gate expo and 2 gate expo stronger, and 3 gate expo was a standard build even before big maps.
On June 08 2011 09:34 iamke55 wrote: Nobody really uses this as a standard anymore except Kiwikaki and Tyler. The new, bigger maps make 1 gate expo and 2 gate expo stronger, and 3 gate expo was a standard build even before big maps.
Would you consider 1 gate Expo standard now? I noticed Naniwa used Huk's 1 gate expand in every one of his PvT matchups. MC used 1 gate expand very often also at MLG.
This really is a great guide but if should be pointed out that you mention Khadyian Amulet a few times, despite its removal. I am aware that you wrote this guide before that, but it is still something to edit out.
On June 08 2011 09:34 iamke55 wrote: Nobody really uses this as a standard anymore except Kiwikaki and Tyler. The new, bigger maps make 1 gate expo and 2 gate expo stronger, and 3 gate expo was a standard build even before big maps.
Would you consider 1 gate Expo standard now? I noticed Naniwa used Huk's 1 gate expand in every one of his PvT matchups. MC used 1 gate expand very often also at MLG.
it really is. especially if you scout no gas from the terran, you should always do it.
but to make it clear: 1 Gate Expand is by no means safe! it just is, because of the current metagame. If the Terran plays a 2 rax build with reactor first, there is no way you can hold your nexus. you have to sacrifice it in order to stay alive and defend at your ramp. but you will be in a tough spot, because he will probably contain you and expand behind it.
here is an example of how to deal with it:
for colossus play in general: you can play like iamke55 stated in the part "Greedy variation (IMO best way to play PvT)" if the terran also 1 rax expanded. you just have to build your third nexus before gateway 4 or 5, when the T doesnt plan a strong 2 base push (if you don't scout 5+ barracks and probably no ebay off of 2 bases). if you don't, your main will be mined out soon and you can't really add more infrastructure, because the terran will already have a high enough viking count to threaten you. so just take your third and build more gateways right after it.
I'm not quite sure how to play out the colossus build, if the terran gets a quick second starport. I tried stopping colossus production and add immortals, HTs and get charge ASAP and had some success with it. but not entirely sure if it's the best way.
Are you done with the standard play series? All I can find are the first two but these are really helpful, so I for one would like to encourage you to pick it back up.
Wow.... thank you so much for this guide. I've been getting destroyed lately in PvT and only being silver I'm not exactly sure where to start with trying to improve my play. After looking through this and posting this build on my desk I feel a lot better about it.
One thing I was wondering though, would it be a good idea to work pheonixs (preferably only about 6-7) into your army composition? I was wondering if they would be good to negate the drop harass since they could chase down the Medivacs, plus having them for Viking late game.....
Like i said still silver and I haven't actually tried this yet because I'm still at work but just wondering if something like that would be viable.
On June 30 2011 21:33 Absilom wrote: Wow.... thank you so much for this guide. I've been getting destroyed lately in PvT and only being silver I'm not exactly sure where to start with trying to improve my play. After looking through this and posting this build on my desk I feel a lot better about it.
One thing I was wondering though, would it be a good idea to work pheonixs (preferably only about 6-7) into your army composition? I was wondering if they would be good to negate the drop harass since they could chase down the Medivacs, plus having them for Viking late game.....
Like i said still silver and I haven't actually tried this yet because I'm still at work but just wondering if something like that would be viable.
Phoenix, colossus, gateway is certainly a good composition on 3 bases, but it really cuts into either your upgrades or colossus numbers compared to blink stalkers. Just 4 phoenix and a stargate is as much gas as your 3/3 ups. Also, drop harass is only as dangerous as you let it be. Every medivac he makes is a viking not picking off your colossus, so its important to keep up the pressure and keep his viking count low so he doesn't have the time to doom drop you. Also, consider making your 2nd robo a bit earlier, and using it to get an extra observer or two. Between observers, good pylon spread, and good map awareness, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to deal with drops without phoenix until you are in the super late game on 5+ base.
Hello there, I've been trying to learn the 'greedy' version of your PvT Standard Play guide (that is, fast tech to colossi AND go for double forge). I was wondering how my army composition should look, as I end up with (when testing in YABOT) 4 sentries, 11 stalkers, my 5 colossi and 32 zealots. I can hardly afford the stalkers that I DO get along with double upgrades and colossi.
Also, I was wondering if you were aware of this 'overview' of PvT, done by Arcanefrost. I am in platinum league and am struggling to beat enough diamond players to move up. I am unsure of how applicable Arcanefrost's overview is to me. Should I stick with only the 2 Gate Robo opening for now, regardless of scouting, or should I work on the alternative openings, based on what I scout (they include 1 Gate Expo and 3 Gate Expo) and attempt to digest all of the information in his thread on how to react to which builds the terran is doing? (Or should I only aim to learn the overall ways to react to things like mech or marauders, rather than specific openings, just sticking with 2 Gate Robo in all situations?)
Thank-you in advance for your time, I apologise if my questions seem odd or dumb. Thanks also for these AWESOME guides for Standard Play. I find it so difficult to find guides for builds that aren't gimmicky or outdated. So, thank-you. <3
That army composition looks a bit light a stalkers. Trying building the expansion assimilators earlier. If you do want to keep that army composition though, you need to be getting charge instead of blink.
In lower leagues, you can get away with going 2 gate robo every game. In fact, you should do that so you can focus on improving your mechanics and scouting. But once you face high master and grand master players, you will need some kind of 1 gate expo on larger maps to deal with Terran's no gas expo build.
I have a question regarding the lessening popularity of Collosus usage at many top level tournaments matches, why is this the case? Specifically I mean the TvP matches with PoltPrime and ST_Bomber constantly winning, even players like MC seems to be too intimidated to go collosus but opt to use high templar + mass gateway units. They basically win in a straight forward manner using BioBall and ghosts, is it because Korean Terrans have learned the aggressive timings to exploit Collosus oriented playstyles in the past 2 months?
On July 05 2011 06:45 iamke55 wrote: That army composition looks a bit light a stalkers. Trying building the expansion assimilators earlier. If you do want to keep that army composition though, you need to be getting charge instead of blink.
In lower leagues, you can get away with going 2 gate robo every game. In fact, you should do that so you can focus on improving your mechanics and scouting. But once you face high master and grand master players, you will need some kind of 1 gate expo on larger maps to deal with Terran's no gas expo build.
Thank-you so much, even more so for the swift reply. <3
On July 06 2011 00:42 bubblegumbo wrote: I have a question regarding the lessening popularity of Collosus usage at many top level tournaments matches, why is this the case? Specifically I mean the TvP matches with PoltPrime and ST_Bomber constantly winning, even players like MC seems to be too intimidated to go collosus but opt to use high templar + mass gateway units. They basically win in a straight forward manner using BioBall and ghosts, is it because Korean Terrans have learned the aggressive timings to exploit Collosus oriented playstyles in the past 2 months?
couple reasons 1) the timing as you're getting the colossi out is fairly awkward. It costs 500/400 to get out a non-range colossi, 700/600 for a ranged one (that's 4 zealots plus SIX sentries!). That's a pretty significant unit hit when you're on 1base/1base+ a bit of a second, and Terrans learned to exploit that window. 2) with Terrans learning you can build more than one starport, and you can upgrade ship weapons, Terrans now get to a point of one-shotting colossi very quickly. Colossi that get one-shotted are...not very good...
Point 2 means that the timing window where Colossi are really powerful is very, very small. So, the risks of going collosus early have increased, and the rewards have diminished.
The gateway style is less fragile, a more gradual tech investment, and it forces the Terran to tech far and wide to counter it - they need both medivacs (to kite properly) and a decent number of ghosts (or they get lolfielded+stormed). By the time they have those, you can add on colossi much more safely, as the investment cost is small relative to your income (usually on 3base by then).
Oh I forgot another one. Robo openings have decreased greatly in popularity because they're generally too defensive. Obviously it's easier to transition to a gateway style from 3gate expand or whatever.