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Here's a description of the general idea of the build on Liquipedia: Polt Timing Attack Liquipedia Article
Here are 3 replays of Jinro crushing TTOne's robo builds with variations of the Polt timing attack at MLG Dallas: Jinro Polt Timing Attack Replay Pack
I recently saw some guy using this build to great effect in a CraftCup Lite today, and it looks ridiculously strong. I've never played against this myself, but how do you stop a build like this if you plan to go Robo?
When you scout Terran, you'll see the Starport with a tech lab, which basically means that you need some sort of detection because of the threat of cloaked banshees. If you got the Robo for the observer, you need to get Stalkers to defend against the Banshee harass. However, there's still a huge Marine Marauder ball with this push, so you need to tech to Colossi. But then the push comes when you only have 2 Colossi and the PDD prevents your Stalkers from stopping the Banshees from killing your Colossi and then the MM ball destroys your army! @_@ <pant, wheeze>
Is there a correct response to this after you've already decided to do something like a 2 Gate Robo Expand?
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Its really hard to stop.. in general you want to try and force them to drop PDD by poking at their army on the way to your base. If you let them get to your natural unmolested and drop the PDD in a good spot you are in trouble
Throwing up 1-2 cannons can help too. They can shoot the banshees with PDD down and give backup detection if he snipes your observer.
Unfortunately there is no magical build response because there are so many variations of the push.. he can go pure marine/uncloaked banshee and come very early. He can get cloak and marauders and come later. He can come even later with a few vikings to snipe observers and help kill collossus.
Once you know this is coming you want to rely on mainly zealot/sentry. You still want some stalkers but only enough to deal with the banshees. If you can you want to micro your sentries to attack the PDD. They do such low damage that in my experience trying to kill the banshees with them is a waste of time but they can kill the low health PDD allowing your stalkers to attack.
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steal his gas off the bat, maybe even a double gas steal. he'll almost inevitably go bio, either for a quick all-in or for a 2rax expand.
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2400 diamond T here.
I recommend not fast expanding when you see this sort of 1 base timing attack.
The polt timing attack is designed to punish greedy FE toss players who also went for robo instead of stargate.
It's kind of how the 1 base colossi timing attack is designed to punish greedy Terran FE.
Both builds are almost impossible to stop if you went for a greedy FE.
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You cry extensively and possibly gg. Assuming you went FE into 3gate robo, upon scouting the techlab starport:
Throw down a stargate and forge immediately. You want to be powering a fair amount of stalker/sentry/phoenix, and lay out some cannons in the front - the longer T sits on 1 base before attacking, the more cannons you can add, because they're pretty much you best DPS against marines. Zealots I find are fairly pointless because they can't actually get onto the marineball before melting, and you can't safely keep them under a guardian shield.
You want to try to force a PDD before reaching your natural, but a good T wont waste it. Have your sentries in a separate control group and use them to focusfire it - but chances are that it'll instantly expend its energy blocking a billion shots anyway. Use your phoenixes to kill the banshees, then lift marines, try to forcefield as many marines back (you want the fight to go longer as PDD is only in play at the start, and stim has a duration).
Guardian shield is absolutely massive, and +1 armor from the forge is something I like as well.
Alternatively you could try to rush out a colossus along with phoenixes, but without the range upgrade it would be tricky (1gate FE). If you've opened 2gate robo FE I would suggest getting some colossi as well as phoenixes, since you'll have the time to get 2 colossi out.
I tend to get roflstomped by this so take that into account when reading this post (2K+ P).
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On November 11 2010 06:15 link0 wrote:
I recommend not fast expanding when you see this sort of 1 base timing attack.
You can easily do this Raven-Banshee opening and squeeze an expansion in there (as shown in the Jinro match on Metalopolis), or just expand after the push. Hiding on one base while Terran can freely expand just because of the threat of this timing attack seems like just delaying the inevitable.
If you said the solution was to not tech to Colossi and just try to hold with Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/Immortal and FF after scouting the Raven/Banshees, I might buy that. But not expanding in a matchup where Toss is just desperately trying to survive until mid-late-game seems like a terrible idea. =/
On November 11 2010 06:31 Dfgj wrote:
Assuming you went FE into 3gate robo, upon scouting the techlab starport:
Throw down a stargate and forge immediately.
This sounds like an overreaction to me. There are plenty of MMM builds that just... get a banshee before they swap to get medivacs for some harassment.
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Try Chargelots + Phoenix/Void instead?
But to answer your question, when you have already done that build, I guess it might be too late.
Also however if you do go robo you can just get immortals + chargelots, you don't need colossi against mmm, and then build a Stargate / observer. SG/Robo is much better than Robo/RoboBay because it gives more flexibility, twice the unit production (building a observer won't hold up your colossi/immortals!) This is just theoretical though, since I don't know the timings and I guess it depends what time you find out his build and such.
Another advantage for Immortals is, although small, their shields will block each Banshee hit, reducing 4 total damage xD (10x2 instead of 12x2).
Only problem for Immortals is if they go ghosts. But for this build they won't have any. And if they delay and transition into ghosts then you can transition into HT ( you would probably have Twilight Council sometime around here right? )
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On November 11 2010 06:57 Shlowpoke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 06:15 link0 wrote:
I recommend not fast expanding when you see this sort of 1 base timing attack. You can easily do this Raven-Banshee opening and squeeze an expansion in there (as shown in the Jinro match on Metalopolis), or just expand after the push. Hiding on one base while Terran can freely expand just because of the threat of this timing attack seems like just delaying the inevitable. If you said the solution was to not tech to Colossi and just try to hold with Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/Immortal and FF after scouting the Raven/Banshees, I might buy that. But not expanding in a matchup where Toss is just desperately trying to survive until mid-late-game seems like a terrible idea. =/ Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 06:31 Dfgj wrote:
Assuming you went FE into 3gate robo, upon scouting the techlab starport:
Throw down a stargate and forge immediately. This sounds like an overreaction to me. There are plenty of MMM builds that just... get a banshee before they swap to get medivacs for some harassment.
I don't completely agree. A forge is something that maintains viability - you want upgrades anyways. You're not going to put down cannons unless you've scouted the push forming, but more importantly, this tends to be visible - high marine count, a raven out early, etc.
Phoenixes are also useful units if he's getting ravens and banshees - but remain useful if he transitions back to standard play as they support colossi against vikings. Sure, you've invested extra early, but if he's getting a raven and banshees while sitting on one-base, that's delaying standard play too.
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well 2100 p here,
for now 2 days i constantly try with various trainingspartner to come up with something.
btw. you think this is bad? my bitch of a teammate actually just makes fun off me with a variation of this build. it comes a good minute earlier and without marauders, therefore some rines more, one banshee more and 4 siegetanks with, guess what, siegemode. yes with stimpack. this really is bad, he almost pulls his whole economy and just laughes at me.
well, in theory, the counter is pretty easy. if you go for +1 attack chargelots with sentry and phoenix, youre totally fine, but srsly, who does this in a normal game? because +1 lots only need 2 hits for a stimmed rine without shields, which is huuuge. they basically become zerglings.
you cant go for collossi, never, they actually dont do shit. and by the time i mentioned above, you get one out....one! and one collossus is none collossus, srsly. marines just eat up anything. vs polt, propably stalker sentry only is your best option, because there is no awesome range units, you can split off some units and kill them one by one. but what do you do vs 13 range tanks?!?!?!
i mean, terrans complain about collossi.... so what is cheaper has more range cannot be hit by air and most of the time even does more damge? yeah, they cant move....
dont get me wrong, i really want to help you instead of whining, but these are my thoughts for the last 2 days.
and to above me.....canons.... tanks?^^
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I feel you ensis, I've got some clanmates that add in tanks to the build, and the sheer dps (even without siege) is even more obnoxious to deal with.
I'd really love to see this more in games like the GSL so we can see options to handle it (besides 4gating into 1/1/1s on sight). SanZenith showed some defense against Hyperdub, but that's only one game.
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I struggle with Terran air all the time. Protoss just has horrifice anti-air, and it gets even worse when a PDD is dropped. Banshee's have higher DPS and are cheaper than VoidRays, and yet voids get nerfed. Smeh :/
You can stop this if you 1 Gate FE, but it's close. The moment you drop down your Nexus, you need cut probes and throw down another gate and a robo. Make an observer to scout, but actually I'm trying to switch over and make a stargate instead. Make a phoenix to scout, if you see a tech lab on a starport, then throw down a robo just to be safe. The reason why I want to switch this is because usually that observer is out before he get cloak, possibly too early. And they're really expensive, seeing how immortals won't help you here. Keep pumping units, be ready to defend with your probes at your nat.
Here's the trick - make a Void Ray. You should have a good chunk of zealots by then, make sure you do so they can deal with the rines. If they can't, pull probes, you will still be ahead if you lose very single one of them. A Void Ray will keep you alive because it's not affected by the PDD, can only be killed by the rines, and can attack everything he is throwing at you. If he adds a viking, target fire with phoenix and Void immediately, but then his banshee count will be less so youre ground army will survive longer to deal with those rines. THE VOID RAY WILL KEEP YOU ALIVE.
But still, countering this comes down to micro and ability. It's a pretty cheap build from Terrans, and I don't mean money wise. The skill to defend it is wayyyyy higher than the skill to execute it, it's just incredibly effective since banshees have such a high DPS and ravens have the ability to negate your stalkers and phoenixes, your main anti-air units. Hope this helps!
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I haven't actually seen this build on ladder yet, what do you have to see to say "Oh @#$%, that isn't just banshee harass"? Obviously, as soon as his raven pops out, you can't keep an observer in his base, and by that point, isn't your robo facility already building/done? Do you let the robo finish and just delay the range upgrade and make immortals, or do you forgo robo units altogther, get your stargate up, and CB phoenix ASAP?
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In my experience, your best bet is to immediately lay down a stargate and chrono out 2-3 phoenix while completely dropping robotech production. Once the phoenix are out, you MUST go on the offensive with them, and start harassing the hell out of their raven and banshees. Phoenix are fast, do 20 a volley to those units, and can shoot while moving, so you can really cause problems dancing around the marines and hurting those units. If you see any opening at all, its important to just rightclick that raven and suck up any damage or phoenix losses that result - a dead raven means no PDD, which means he needs to spend the gas building a new one and then waiting for it to charge up the energy. If he drops a PDD to save his ravens, just run the phoenix away.
Without PDD, the push is much less scary, as all your stalkers can actually, you know, help. Cannons aren't a bad idea if your natural is defensible with them, but on maps like delta quadrant, I wouldn't bother. Having a high zeal count is important to deal with his marines, as the banshee will get cleaned up pretty quick by the phoenix + stalkers, but those marines, if not dealt with, will still cause a lot of damage.
I have not played any polt-esque push with tanks, that would be truly terrifying. Maybe immortal dropping the tanks or lifting them would be the answer, it would probably depend if he is cutting banshees for the tank production, or just pushing later so you could have colossus up.
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I faced that build around 30 times on ladder (2000 d protoss)
I 1 gate FE and sometime i can hold it just fine, sometime not.
Mass marine + 2 banshee without cloak + raven = a joke... just delay the fight and waste their stim, the banshee wont do enough alone. Mass stalker with good force field to keep marine out of range.
Mass marine + 2 banshee with cloak + raven = Worst possible scenario, they will just scan, and kill your observer and your done, banshee will kill all sentry.
Mass marine + 1-2 tanks + 1-2 banshee + raven = This push come too late IMO. Your economy can kick in and you can have either phoenix, collosus, and mass stalker all at your disposal.
MM + 2 banshee cloak + 1 raven = The more marauder the happier you are. Mass marine inflict way more damage. WIth marauder you want your zealot shield with sentry to hold and a good pack of stalker.
Takes all this with a grain of salt, i've beaten this strat a lot of time. But when executed perfectly... i just cant see to find the right composition on time.
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On November 11 2010 07:22 brainpower wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I haven't actually seen this build on ladder yet, what do you have to see to say "Oh @#$%, that isn't just banshee harass"? Obviously, as soon as his raven pops out, you can't keep an observer in his base, and by that point, isn't your robo facility already building/done? Do you let the robo finish and just delay the range upgrade and make immortals, or do you forgo robo units altogther, get your stargate up, and CB phoenix ASAP?
Well, let's assume you get the robo after your first or second gateway and your observer sees the Raven. At that point, you can't assume he's going for the timing attack. It could just be a fast Raven build.
I think in order to determine that your opponent is probably doing this you have to see both the Raven and a Banshee, as well as a delayed expansion.
After the first Banshee pops Terran has to build another one, then swap the Starport to a reactor and build a set of vikings, then travel to your base. A banshee takes 60 seconds to build, the swap takes 5-10 seconds, the vikings take 42 seconds, and the travel time varies... let's say 20 seconds. You have about 2 to 2.5 in-game minutes to change your plan if you see the first Banshee immediately after it pops.
That's enough time to get a forge and cannons or throw down a Stargate and get maybe 2 phoenixes. The forge option sounds stronger, imo. However... what if he doesn't harass with the Banshees? I don't know how you could know it's coming at that point. =(
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I always play Stargate against Terran and this attack has never been a problem. The reason is because the 1 PDD dies quite fast to 1-3 void rays and the marine's only protection is gone. Yeah, you have to micro your voids on the pdd, you have to engage VRs first to soak marine fire, but the attack is paper-thin once the pdd is down.
Here's a replay that I think has some variant of the PTA in it, I haven't watched it recently:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96663-1v1-terran-protoss-delta-quadrant
It's long, but the attack happens in the beginning (duh)
Here's another replay that has some variant of the PTA:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/93246-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
You can analyze why stargate play is stronger than this, and much stronger than many standard openings in the TvP matchup, and not overcommitting to stargate allows for expansion and other tech paths.
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On November 11 2010 07:59 tehemperorer wrote:I always play Stargate against Terran and this attack has never been a problem. The reason is because the 1 PDD dies quite fast to 1-3 void rays and the marine's only protection is gone. Yeah, you have to micro your voids on the pdd, you have to engage VRs first to soak marine fire, but the attack is paper-thin once the pdd is down. Here's a replay that I think has some variant of the PTA in it, I haven't watched it recently: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96663-1v1-terran-protoss-delta-quadrantIt's long, but the attack happens in the beginning (duh) Here's another replay that has some variant of the PTA: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/93246-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-cavernsYou can analyze why stargate play is stronger than this, and much stronger than many standard openings in the TvP matchup, and not overcommitting to stargate allows for expansion and other tech paths.
i´ll just comment on the replays.
your first rep is completely pointless and just off topic as whole.
the second... ok, at like 9:30 my mate has 15 scvs 1 raven 4 tanks 3 banshees and 21 marines with stim at your freaking door. you have 3 sentries 4 zealots 4 stalkers and 3 phoenixes.... you get my point?
and playing voidrays vs a mass marine strategy is like playing mass ling vs hellion
i think i should just submit a replay here. but too tired right now.
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I've had success against this build by going 2 robo 1 gate, pumping stalkers + 1 sentry out of the gate, and immortals. The idea is to keep your stalkers behind the immortals, their only purpose is to shoot at the banshee. You will not really try and do any damage with the stalker during the fight with the marine marauder, since there will be a PDD out anyway. Just keep them back, and keep them shooting (to wear down the PDD)
You can actually FE with this strat.
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On November 11 2010 07:59 tehemperorer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I always play Stargate against Terran and this attack has never been a problem. The reason is because the 1 PDD dies quite fast to 1-3 void rays and the marine's only protection is gone. Yeah, you have to micro your voids on the pdd, you have to engage VRs first to soak marine fire, but the attack is paper-thin once the pdd is down. Here's a replay that I think has some variant of the PTA in it, I haven't watched it recently: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96663-1v1-terran-protoss-delta-quadrantIt's long, but the attack happens in the beginning (duh) Here's another replay that has some variant of the PTA: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/93246-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-cavernsYou can analyze why stargate play is stronger than this, and much stronger than many standard openings in the TvP matchup, and not overcommitting to stargate allows for expansion and other tech paths.
Please watch your replays and then watch the Jinro vs TTOne replays in the OP. There is a massive difference in the Terran gameplay.
On November 11 2010 08:27 GoldenH wrote:
I've had success against this build by going 2 robo 1 gate, pumping stalkers + 1 sentry out of the gate, and immortals. The idea is to keep your stalkers behind the immortals, their only purpose is to shoot at the banshee. You will not really try and do any damage with the stalker during the fight with the marine marauder, since there will be a PDD out anyway. Just keep them back, and keep them shooting (to wear down the PDD)
You can actually FE with this strat.
I don't buy this, especially not after an FE. With only stalker/sentry/immortal the immortals are going to get focused down by the marines extremely quickly while the stalkers are occupied with PDD. If you can prove it by posting a replay, then by all means...
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Depending on the map, void rays will work. People don't realize the patch made them much better at hit and run harass but not as effective in rushes. The pros are using void rays way more in tournaments like GSL for this very reason - fly over a cliff hit and run, even mass stimmed marines won't kill them and their shields will heal. The proper counter to microed void rays is actually vikings despite their armor. Marines only work if the protoss player doesn't know how to micro and escape over cliffs.
Void rays work much more like mutalisks post patch. You hit and run and force your opponent to hard counter, and if they can't get critical mass you camp at their barracks and command and snipe anything that comes out. There was one GSL game where 2 void rays microed the marines to death (ignoring tanks and marauders) and then camped over 4 barracks and it was gg.
The other counter is simply to have low econ 1 base aggression against terran to break his tech build, or steal his gas. If you "let" Terran get 2 banshees out without ever making a single attack, that's your call.
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EPT
