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I wanted to make a strategy thread/discussion thread about this strategy that not many lil forum warriors here know about - and that is turtling into carrier/templars in protoss versus terran.
First of all, lots of people on the forums and elsewhere have this notion that carriers are a bad unit...let me tell you, as will other Terrans, carriers are one of the strongest units in the game right now.
The strategy that lots of top level protoss are using in pvt on ladder, mostly in upper tier masters tho, is playing a standard game with the goal of mass cannon turtling with the khadayarin amulet.
The idea is, once they reach this point, they are ahead in expansions from mid-game pressure on you with collosus/gateway units, and suddenly they have expansions that anywhere on the map are defended by cannons+ templar warp-ins + army movement.
This is not theorycraft - this is what people are actually doing. I will provide one replay from a game earlier, as well as other losses to the same strategy when I look through my replay folder later, as i'm sure I angrily named them 
So on with what happens...after they have the amulet upgrade for templar, they start to literally mass carriers + templars + collosus/gateway units as they see fit for, with the eventual inclusion of a mothership.
Bio does not counter this strategy directly, because carriers are air units...and templar storm is going to kill the only viable counter to pure carriers - mass 3/3 marines to kill interceptors.
Mech works in the sense that you're less vulnerable to templars, but it does not work in the sense that you can never attack protoss if you go heavy tank mech and they turtle into carriers...as over half your army will be tanks/hellions and you'll suddenly have to do a massive tech switch to the only available counter carrier measure - mass vikings, which also is countered by templars and vortex.
All right, so we've narrowed that down. What has worked for me one time versus this strategy, was a bio mech mix of mass marines, mass tanks, and vikings + ghosts which turned out into an insane game of emping templars and then hitting expansions with tanks/marine, with marines killing the interceptors, and vikings killing the carriers.
The other more viable strategy I believe, and I've also seen drewbie use it once versus a turtle templar/carrier player on his stream, was what I just tried in a game which was standard bio/viking, into mass BCS/ghosts. This I think would be the main counter, but I am wondering what other Terrans high up on the ladder are doing.
How should Terran go about fighting mass carrier + templar? Here is the replay of a recent game where I played versus this strategy (and lost), and I went for mass 3/3 BCS with ghosts.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-185271.jpg)
You'll notice the protoss almost never commits to an attack, and instead gets a few collosus and immediately goes to the amulet upgrade into the strategy I have just described.
Any tips or ideas on what I could have done better are appreciated, as I don't think the strategy itself is imbalanced, but you just have to be really on the ball and get into the BC lategame to beat carrier/templars.
discussssssss!
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United States7483 Posts
I use carriers all the time in my play against terran... if the game lasts until I'm on 3+ bases and he's not going bio/viking. If he's mech, carriers are coming out. Templar are my favorite tech path, so I generally open colossus to survive long enough to get templar out, since as protoss the terran has the agression ability early game. Once the colossus are out, I look to take out their army before vikings are out while I tech to high templar, and from there I rely on my ability to reinforce anywhere with storm/archons to counter their mobility.
The problem with carriers AND high templar at the same time is that both units are very very gas expensive, and the tech for both takes forever to get out. Each carrier is 250 gas, plus the fleet beacon (200) and 150 for the stargate. Not to mention the upgrade at the fleet beacon. Each high templar is 150 gas, and there's a ton for the tech and upgrades too. It's not even a remotely considerable option unless you're on 3-4 bases, and usually you'd be better off dumping your resources into something other than carriers at that point, like void rays or immortals to deal with the units terran will get to beat your high temp/zealots.
Oh, and if the protoss is getting mass cannons, just expand wherever the frick you like, he can't pressure you at all if you're macroing well. Tanks laugh at cannons too.
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Protip: Don't name your replays "carriertemplarfaggot" then expected to be taken as anything but a joke.
EDIT: Maybe you'd get fewer haters if you gave anyone respect ever.
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On January 31 2011 09:29 PJA wrote:
Protip: Don't name your replays "carriertemplarfaggot" then expected to be taken as anything but a joke.
Protip: read the thread, and keep it on topic. I'm not amazed tho at how fast haters try to de-rail a thread.
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Russian Federation325 Posts
Nice game, it seems that protoss is just stronger if map is split in halves. OR you should go not pure BC but vikings/BC.
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On January 31 2011 09:27 Whitewing wrote:
I use carriers all the time in my play against terran... if the game lasts until I'm on 3+ bases and he's not going bio/viking. If he's mech, carriers are coming out. Templar are my favorite tech path, so I generally open colossus to survive long enough to get templar out, since as protoss the terran has the agression ability early game. Once the colossus are out, I look to take out their army before vikings are out while I tech to high templar, and from there I rely on my ability to reinforce anywhere with storm/archons to counter their mobility.
The problem with carriers AND high templar at the same time is that both units are very very gas expensive, and the tech for both takes forever to get out. Each carrier is 250 gas, plus the fleet beacon (200) and 150 for the stargate. Not to mention the upgrade at the fleet beacon. Each high templar is 150 gas, and there's a ton for the tech and upgrades too. It's not even a remotely considerable option unless you're on 3-4 bases, and usually you'd be better off dumping your resources into something other than carriers at that point, like void rays or immortals to deal with the units terran will get to beat your high temp/zealots.
Oh, and if the protoss is getting mass cannons, just expand wherever the frick you like, he can't pressure you at all if you're macroing well. Tanks laugh at cannons too.
It's not a theorycraft...it's past the point of "being a remote considerable option." It's a completely viable option. That's the point of this thread. Carriers are a better resource sink late game than immortals/voids with this strategy...
You seem, like many others, to be stuck with the notion that "carriers are bad." They are not. There's obviously very good since so many top protoss are doing this exact strategy a lot of their pvt games.
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i watched the replay that you named "carriertemplarfaggot" and you sat around making only bcs and not attacking vs an army consisting of void rays and carriers and then complained a lot and called your opponent bad and apparently made a thread about it. i think its pretty clear who the faggot is.
User was temp banned for this post.
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United States7483 Posts
It's a viable option if you're on 3-4 bases and you've had lots and lots of time to tech, in which case your terran opponent is being far too passive, and should have way more economy than you do, or should have an army easily able to break it. Mech/vikings should crush this.
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How about emping your bcs? those feedbacks just seem so painful. In those numbers BCs are rough to deal with even without the yamatos... In the battle at the 40min mark you took 2k dmg from feedbacks, that's around 40% of the dmg you took in that fight. I don't know, just an idea. Your offensive capabilities would drop, but your units would be a lot beefier as a result.
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an avilo qq thread about me? i am honored! gg. i really should have been able to close it out on 3 bases but i forgot my hts.. i think after the fight at my nat you were a lititle behind so it's not the craziest thing in the world that I could outexpo in the mid late game
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On January 31 2011 09:42 laegoose wrote:
Nice game, it seems that protoss is just stronger if map is split in halves. OR you should go not pure BC but vikings/BC.
I have tried that once I think, but I don't think it's too good as the carriers just rip the vikings to shreds with storm. When I went more BCS instead of vikings, I had more success so far. Storm is just very scary vs mass vikings.
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Can't watch the replay atm but perhaps try to harass with drops.
If they have cannons surrounding their base you could mass expand and take the map. This way you will probably have plenty of scans and will be able to actively scout their unit composition and adjust accordingly.
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Alright so I watched your game and there were two things that really bothered me.
1. During the first big engagement, when almost broke the Protoss completely, you failed to macro during the battle. It wasn't until after the battle was over that you started to produce things out of your production facilities again, If you had macroed during that time, you would have been a more favorable position after the fight. Also, before you engaged at his gold, I think you would have been pretty well off with a drop into his main with your army. His army would have had to walk a long time to respond, and if he wasn't careful, his collosus would have been out of position, letting you snipe them more easily with your Vikings.
2. After seeing the carrier transition, I'm not sure that a Battle Cruiser response was a good idea. BC are like the old Thor and Corrupter, having energy on them is a horrible idea. Because of that, the Templar were able to feedback you pretty harshly. Another slight problem I had was that your ghost control slipped a bit during the fight near your 7 o'clock at I think the 40 minute marker. If you had gone for vikings instead, you would have been able to defeat the force for sure (thinking back to Jinro vs MC on Scrapes, I know its a completely different situation, but Vikings > Carriers).
Overall, you had a pretty dominant beginning, but I feel like you lost the game due to a mix of not macroing at certain key points and a few small strategic decisions. Overall though, you played really well, and if I had to label one key point as the reason why you lost, the transition to Battle Cruisers was a blunder.
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.and templar storm is going to kill the only viable counter to pure carriers - mass 3/3 marines to kill interceptors. Woah woah woah. Mass Battlecruiser is way better at wrecking interceptors. They tank carriers for a ridiculous amount of time, and you can safely place units behind them to assist. As for killing carriers, sorry. Terran doesn't do too good in that area. You basically have to kill the interceptors and then pull in marine/viking to finish the job. Rushing in for the kill right away doesn't work past a critical mass of carriers, and especially not with HT cover.
The ghosts were great, but where's the EMP? I saw EMP against the Templar, but never against the Protoss fleet. This would have made all the difference later on.
Nukes. You tried some, but not nearly enough. Spam those nukes. Try hitting multiple bases at once. They're cheap, and are virtually impossible to block when you pour them down. Don't nuke a dead Nexus, and don't nuke dead Assimilators. Go for the most recent expansions.
One thing that Carriers HATE, are flying structures. Fly in your barracks and starports. This will draw out the interceptors and let your units score lots of free fire.
Don't spread out missile turrets. They really really need to stay clustered together or they'll get picked off. If you want to push an attack, try walking in missile turrets with your victory fleet. This lets you engage with maximum firepower and will help cover a retreat. If you're pushing from the side, bring in a dropship full of SCVs to do repairs and to spam a turret stronghold.
SCVs belong with EVERY mech attack. Repairing stuff is that good. Get used to bringing a few, and your attacks will last much longer.
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On January 31 2011 09:45 Zarahtra wrote:
How about emping your bcs? those feedbacks just seem so painful. In those numbers BCs are rough to deal with even without the yamatos... In the battle at the 40min mark you took 2k dmg from feedbacks, that's around 40% of the dmg you took in that fight. I don't know, just an idea. Your offensive capabilities would drop, but your units would be a lot beefier as a result.
I was thinking about that. In the game I was going for trying to emp the templars so I could maintain yamatos. I think if you EMP the BCS, they will just use storm instead...so i'm not sure.
On January 31 2011 09:47 Alejandrisha wrote:
an avilo qq thread about me? i am honored! gg. i really should have been able to close it out on 3 bases but i forgot my hts.. i think after the fight at my nat you were a lititle behind so it's not the craziest thing in the world that I could outexpo in the mid late game
Thread isn't about you. It's to discuss the turtle templar/carrier strategy. The thing with the game is, when you reach that point, I can't attack you cost efficiently as you'll just decimate my army with templar warp-ins. I believe I even EMP'd a huge clump of templar at one point, attacked, and the entire bio ball ends up being decimated with carriers re-joining the fight again after that.
And the reason I fought at the natural is I realized you were stopping collosus and going for templar turtle...I had more vikings at the time to be able to kill you then, but storms changed the fight. Maybe I should have waited and played defensive...but that plays into turtle templar/carrier's hands...
It seems you have to suicide bio as cost effectively as possible, and then get the BCS up.
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get thors with yo bcs !
edit:
or maybe just thors instead of bcs. Thor + MM is strong against this unit combo. imo. it's true that storm decimates marines and stuff but you can just hide them behind your thors and then stimpack-suicide when you need them to kill all the interceptors.
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I don't understand the argument you made for why mech dies to high templar carriers.
QUOTE:
Mech works in the sense that you're less vulnerable to templars, but it does not work in the sense that you can never attack protoss if you go heavy tank mech and they turtle into carriers...as over half your army will be tanks/hellions and you'll suddenly have to do a massive tech switch to the only available counter carrier measure - mass vikings, which also is countered by templars and vortex. END QUOTE
If they go for templars first, you should have more than enough time to get your siege push going.
If they go for carriers first, just make vikings and then push either while the carrier numbers are low, or some time before the high templar have storm/amulet?
If it gets to the scenario where they have storm and carriers without dying to a push yet, just start producing thors and vikings and turret up your push and sit on your current tank numbers? Obviously you constantly try to snipe HT with hellions.
It's really important to scout the carrier switch in advance and have a stockpile of vikings to meet the first couple of carriers that pop out. Other than that, I think an important thing to remember when dealing with carriers as mech is it's okay to unsiege and run away from your hard earned push with your tail between your legs in order to have more time to get vikings out if the carriers suprise you or overpower you, so that the tanks stay alive.
I find most tosses just don't have the army to stop a push when they tech to carriers, and since you'll have task force of vikings out ahead of time, the carriers wont be enough to defend the push and you just put the nail in their coffin with constant reinforcement/siege push.
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Hmm, interesting.. I think the game was lost where you were both 200/200 around 50 minute mark and you had 250 minerals while he had like 12k.. How is that possible? I suppose that repair on BCs drained you so much?
As for the final fight, I think you would've won if you splitted your BCs to have some arc.. Overall I think its possible to fight that, just a bit better micro on ghosts and find better possition for fights.. Nice game tho.. 
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Yeah I agree with what you said about a carrier/ht combo being impossible to fight with traditional mmm or mech.
Recently I've been trying a MMM fe into a thor/hellion/ghost transition which works great vs ht but isn't that great vs carriers. BCs are an interesting idea though, I should give that a shot. Instead of sinking my money into ghosts, I can spend it on BC because the bulk of my army will not care about storm. Then with 6 OCs, I can spam mules and get a ton of hellions for harass/sniping ht.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On January 31 2011 10:06 QQmonster wrote:
I don't understand the argument you made for why mech dies to high templar carriers.
QUOTE:
Mech works in the sense that you're less vulnerable to templars, but it does not work in the sense that you can never attack protoss if you go heavy tank mech and they turtle into carriers...as over half your army will be tanks/hellions and you'll suddenly have to do a massive tech switch to the only available counter carrier measure - mass vikings, which also is countered by templars and vortex. END QUOTE
If they go for templars first, you should have more than enough time to get your siege push going.
If they go for carriers first, just make vikings and then push either while the carrier numbers are low, or some time before the high templar have storm/amulet?
If it gets to the scenario where they have storm and carriers without dying to a push yet, just start producing thors and vikings and turret up your push and sit on your current tank numbers? Obviously you constantly try to snipe HT with hellions.
It's really important to scout the carrier switch in advance and have a stockpile of vikings to meet the first couple of carriers that pop out. Other than that, I think an important thing to remember when dealing with carriers as mech is it's okay to unsiege and run away from your hard earned push with your tail between your legs in order to have more time to get vikings out if the carriers suprise you or overpower you, so that the tanks stay alive.
I find most tosses just don't have the army to stop a push when they tech to carriers, and since you'll have task force of vikings out ahead of time, the carriers wont be enough to defend the push and you just put the nail in their coffin with constant reinforcement/siege push.
If P transitions from colo to ht to carrier, it's pretty darn safe and there isn't a real timing window to attack as terran. If P skips ht for carriers, then it's definitely beatable as rine/thor/viking will beat that pretty hard.
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EPT
