EPTDiscussion of carrier+templar late game tvp - Page 3
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QQmonster
Canada240 Posts
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bobucles
410 Posts
The problem with BC and ghosts is that it is reactionary. Not really. Ghosts are simply a good choice against Protoss all around. The BC is a reaction to protect against critical mass Carrier. If you catch it early, Marine/Viking isn't cost effective but it will kill a few Carriers. If HT's start storming them out, there's little else to do but counter with your own capital ships.The battle may come down to whoever is faster with their Ghost/Templar. In this case, the Ghosts have the advantage with slightly better range and instant effect AoE. The Templar have their work cut out as everything needs to get hit with feedback before Carriers start dropping. Using EMP on your Battlecruisers is a double edged sword. You should always try to neutralize the Templar first, because Yamato is critical for taking the Carriers down. | ||
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Reptilia
Chile913 Posts
On January 31 2011 11:35 bobucles wrote: Not really. Ghosts are simply a good choice against Protoss all around. The BC is a reaction to protect against critical mass Carrier. If you catch it early, Marine/Viking isn't cost effective but it will kill a few Carriers. If HT's start storming them out, there's little else to do but counter with your own capital ships. The battle may come down to whoever is faster with their Ghost/Templar. In this case, the Ghosts have the advantage with slightly better range and instant effect AoE. The Templar have their work cut out as everything needs to get hit with feedback before Carriers start dropping. Using EMP on your Battlecruisers is a double edged sword. You should always try to neutralize the Templar first, because Yamato is critical for taking the Carriers down. Yeah but its hard to Yamato gun before the HT feedbacks, because you have to get in range plus u lose time you could be attacking. I rather EMP all my BC with 1 ghost and recieve 1 extra storm to my BC instead of the instant 150 dmg (or more) (because less energy would be even worse) Yamato gun should be 100 energy imo | ||
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Shucks!
United States118 Posts
By the time the toss is going col + ht, he is probably on 3 base, and in an even game P and T match expansions. This means you have 2-3 orbitals up and running, as well as vikings etc, so you should be able to scout really thoroughly. Now comes the important part, if you have good scouting information from HT/Col onwards, you should be able to get a general idea of what his composition is, and you can custom fit your army to deal with this, it is kind of a zerg concept, but once you have enough production facilities, (see: macro) you can somewhat do the same thing. If he is still on ht/col, obviously you want ghosts for emp, vikings for col, and a general bio mix for the rest. If he is starting to get to the point of carrier/ht, you want less Marauder medivac, more marines, more ghosts, and a solid viking fleet, I really don't think BCs are the answer, because of energy. Now, you really have to have good ghost micro to pull it off, but you need to constantly deny observers and emp everything. once the HT are energyless and morphing, you can play more loose with your vikings and marines, as both dominate straight shieldless carrier. If he falls back on heavy gateway units (you're constantly scouting, remember?) and you don't have the supply to pump out more marine/marauder/tank, it is going to come down to your ghost micro and viking upgrades. And your macro, you have to have a lot of fucking barracks, okay? After writing all of this, I really think the core of your army should always be ghosts and vikings, just because vikings are an answer to col and carriers, and ghosts, if played really well, counter HT. On the subject of upgrades? Skip vehicle. Inf and Air, specifically air weapons. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
User was warned for this post Edit: Ok I'll be serious here. Against mass carriers it is very hard to counter as a Terran once they hit a critical mass. Vikings die sooooo fast, BC's anti air is bad, marines cant get close unless you ambush them, and Ghosts cant use snipe on them. I may have been a bit rude in my previous post but that is really the solution. You need to use ample scans to determine he is going carriers and then attack attack attack. You have to stop the Toss from hitting 5+ carriers. QXC style drop play would be my suggestion. I do know your style, and you may have to change it up vs this. I run into this about one out of every 3 FFA's I play (I'm a FFA whore) and so far I have found no solution but 3/3 marines catching the carriers offguard, and that doesn't work with HT's mixed in. Even if the opponent gets say 15 carriers off 3 stargates that is going to take FOREVER to get them out and a pile of resources. Meaning the Protoss will be stuck in their base, with a very underfunded army, that should also be lacking upgrades. Drop them to hell, pull out your best QXC impression. It WILL beat this, however turtling will not. HT/Carrier is sort of like 3/3 Mech was in BW, you don't beat it, you just don't let them get there. | ||
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Terranium
Turkmenistan144 Posts
In the games I won, I simply counter-expanded and took the other half of the map and built dozens of factories and reactored starports to mass pump any units I wanted. In most of the games I lost, I tried timing push with a weaker economy and ended up losing my ground force to his instant warpgate reinforcements. So from my experience it is much safer to play macro rather than committing timing pushes. Don't let your ground froce go too deep into his side, just slow creeping over the map to prevent toss from taking a 5th and use vikings to trade his carriers. Its hard to lose if you play safely because vikings are much more cost effective than carriers. Also, I do believe that this strategy is vulnerable to a very well timed attack right after toss invests in stargates but before the carriers actually come out. Problem is this short window is very hard to exploit unless your on black sheep wall. | ||
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Terranium
Turkmenistan144 Posts
On January 31 2011 11:53 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Personally I would try to kill them before they get 14k+ resources in an army/upgrades/etc, but I guess I'm no pro like Avilo.... User was warned for this post Drop them to hell, pull out your best QXC impression. It WILL beat this, however turtling will not. HT/Carrier is sort of like 3/3 Mech was in BW, you don't beat it, you just don't let them get there. Thats not true. 200/200 3/3 Mech is still the dominating force in SC2. Its just that now vikings don't share the upgrades and you need to invest extra more to cover the air upgrades. If you have close to infinite resources (in this case you do because your opponent lets you take half of the map), mech is still unbeatable just like their BW counterpart. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On January 31 2011 12:18 Terranium wrote: Thats not true. 200/200 3/3 Mech is still the dominating force in SC2. Its just that now vikings don't share the upgrades and you need to invest extra more to cover the air upgrades. If you have close to infinite resources (in this case you do because your opponent lets you take half of the map), mech is still unbeatable just like their BW counterpart. I disagree from my experience. 200/200 3/3 Mech will very very very rarely win vs 200/200 3/3/3 Carrier/HT army. There is just not enough anti air. I wish I kept my FFA replays as I could show you probably 30 different replays of me meching vs this. Hell I have gone pure viking and lost to it before... | ||
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MajorityofOne
Canada2506 Posts
Winning before it gets to that point is your best bet. HTs can feedback BCs and storm Vikings and Marines, so the best options for fighting Carriers get wrecked right there. This isn't a comment on the games balance, btw. Protoss SHOULD win battles that take place at 200 food, provided both players have correct micro and composition. That's the advantage of the race. The disadvantage is getting to the lategame without losing to harassment, expo sniping, and midgame timing pushes from T and Z. | ||
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Terranium
Turkmenistan144 Posts
On January 31 2011 12:21 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I disagree from my experience. 200/200 3/3 Mech will very very very rarely win vs 200/200 3/3/3 Carrier/HT army. There is just not enough anti air. I wish I kept my FFA replays as I could show you probably 30 different replays of me meching vs this. Hell I have gone pure viking and lost to it before... FFA is NOT 1v1 do we have this understanding? Most aerial battles happen above cliffs so templars arent really a threat. But if you choose to fight them in the protoss base with cannons and templars underneath Im not surprised you can lose. Otherwise same supply 3/3/3 carriers lose to 3/3 vikings provided you are not targeting interceptors. Mark my words. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On January 31 2011 12:32 Terranium wrote: FFA is NOT 1v1 do we have this understanding? Most aerial battles happen above cliffs so templars arent really a threat. But if you choose to fight them in the protoss base with cannons and templars underneath Im not surprised you can lose. Otherwise same supply 3/3/3 carriers lose to 3/3 vikings provided you are not targeting interceptors. Mark my words. Lol I understand they are different. Chill out. The problem is the vikings cannot get close enough to take out the carriers. Have you ever tested this yourself? Because I sure as hell have... | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On January 31 2011 12:34 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Lol I understand they are different. Chill out. The problem is the vikings cannot get close enough to take out the carriers. Have you ever tested this yourself? Because I sure as hell have... This comes down to micro.. If you happen to micro well enough not to get stormed you will win.. But I think this is insanely difficult to do as 1 mediocre storm spell gg often.. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On January 31 2011 12:36 Everlong wrote: This comes down to micro.. If you happen to micro well enough not to get stormed you will win.. But I think this is insanely difficult to do as 1 mediocre strom spell gg often.. Don't forget micro does not help a lot here. Once the vikings get close enough for the carriers to launch the interceptors they have to go all in. Remember a Carrier + Ceptors have a range of either 13 or 14 iirc. The vikings trying to shoot and scoot will only take more damage for their efforts. | ||
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MERLIN.
Canada546 Posts
The threat is viable in the sense that yes, it's possible to transition into the gameplay but no one is starting the game going "Hey... I bet this match, i'll push out, grab map control, my opponent will turtle hard giving me a 4th expansion (meaning 4th gas) which is pretty needed to get this carrier/templar mix. and go boom, fuck you I win" every match. Like I said, it's possible if you play an opponent who turtles, but vs bit of pressure a thought of a few warped in templars and some cannons stoping a tank/marine orientated terran (which most of us unbalanced lovers are) will rip apart that concept, all he needs is good marine control, upgraded +1 armour and extra 10 hp, plus medvac support for drop play and ur immobile cannon/templar play wont last Mainly, if he scans ur base making carriers he should generally win. Carriers are not bad, especially with the new upgrade to make them shoot out all at once, but as a viable strat for all games late game, impossibility. EMP/marine/viking are to strong. Don't see many pros going this build, haven't seen HuK go (HEY MAN CARRIER BAM)  Good post, but you are to biased in your opinion to take anyone elses seriously, so I doubt this will get through also. | ||
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Terranium
Turkmenistan144 Posts
[QUOTE]On January 31 2011 12:32 Terranium wrote: [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 12:21 iCCup.Diamond wrote: [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 12:18 Terranium wrote: [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 11:53 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Personally I would try to kill them before they get 14k+ resources in an army/upgrades/etc, but I guess I'm no pro like Avilo.... User was warned for this post Lol I understand they are different. Chill out. The problem is the vikings cannot get close enough to take out the carriers. Have you ever tested this yourself? Because I sure as hell have...[/QUOTE] I already said in my first post I played carrier/HT toss before and won. One game I remember well is a 40 min game on Shakuras. When I realized my opponent was turtling for carrier/HT, I took my half of the map and set up enormous defence at the two watch towers so he couldnt take the other 2 expos. I won after my opponent was eventually mined out on his half. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
Serious: In reality the actual ability of Toss going mass carrier HT is pretty slim, but if it does happen personally i believe mass Ghost Marine will deal with this. Pretty easily by spaming EMP like a mad man forceing Archons and the warpingo f more HTs. Toss can only spam HTs for so long, and when he runs low on gas you can pummel him in the face with Mass Marines. | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On January 31 2011 12:40 MERLIN. wrote: After watching the replay... I dunno, the concept that the terran is going to sit back midgame and allow this... templar?cannon? base play is pretty unlikely. You think a few colo and some early pressure will just make the terran sit back and go, holy shit... that things so massive air units can hit it, time to bunk up on 2(maybe 3) bases and wait for them to Tier3 while we chillback with marines. The threat is viable in the sense that yes, it's possible to transition into the gameplay but no one is starting the game going "Hey... I bet this match, i'll push out, grab map control, my opponent will turtle hard giving me a 4th expansion (meaning 4th gas) which is pretty needed to get this carrier/templar mix. and go boom, fuck you I win" every match. Like I said, it's possible if you play an opponent who turtles, but vs bit of pressure a thought of a few warped in templars and some cannons stoping a tank/marine orientated terran (which most of us unbalanced lovers are) will rip apart that concept, all he needs is good marine control, upgraded +1 armour and extra 10 hp, plus medvac support for drop play and ur immobile cannon/templar play wont last Mainly, if he scans ur base making carriers he should generally win. Carriers are not bad, especially with the new upgrade to make them shoot out all at once, but as a viable strat for all games late game, impossibility. EMP/marine/viking are to strong. Don't see many pros going this build, haven't seen HuK go (HEY MAN CARRIER BAM) Good post, but you are to biased in your opinion to take anyone elses seriously, so I doubt this will get through also. A good immo/colo/(and eventually ht) composition will absolutely tear apart a rine/tank army. Also, carriers are pretty efficient vs vikings, which is the most logical answer from T's side. Although people are suggesting BCs so I might give that a try. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
Somebody already mentioned this, but going really HEAVY into ghosts is in my opinion great vs HT/carriers. Not only do you want to mass-EMP the templars, but you also want to EMP the carriers! Carriers may work fine vs vikings, but there is no way they will escape EMP - and without shields they drop extremely fast. No you won't just roflstomp all over them, you will probably even lose a 200/200 fight. But it should keep the carrier-number low and bleed them dry. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
However, this carrier/HT thing, i feel, is the bane of mech. You can often times end up with a split map and resources galore. It is not the actual strength of this combo that is the problem, for me, but the "warp in" mechanic+amulet for the HTs. You can EMP all the Templars you want, it only takes 2s for 6-7 more to "warp in" and take out everything, from storming Vikings/ Marines to feedback on the BCs. The best thing to do i find it to be EMP on the carriers and on the Momaship. EMP + stupid numbers of Vikings and making sure to have Hellions ready for the natural response of mass Zealots. PS: what is it with the Avilo hate? FFS | ||
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