I wanted to make a strategy thread/discussion thread about this strategy that not many lil forum warriors here know about - and that is turtling into carrier/templars in protoss versus terran.
First of all, lots of people on the forums and elsewhere have this notion that carriers are a bad unit...let me tell you, as will other Terrans, carriers are one of the strongest units in the game right now.
The strategy that lots of top level protoss are using in pvt on ladder, mostly in upper tier masters tho, is playing a standard game with the goal of mass cannon turtling with the khadayarin amulet.
The idea is, once they reach this point, they are ahead in expansions from mid-game pressure on you with collosus/gateway units, and suddenly they have expansions that anywhere on the map are defended by cannons+ templar warp-ins + army movement.
This is not theorycraft - this is what people are actually doing. I will provide one replay from a game earlier, as well as other losses to the same strategy when I look through my replay folder later, as i'm sure I angrily named them
So on with what happens...after they have the amulet upgrade for templar, they start to literally mass carriers + templars + collosus/gateway units as they see fit for, with the eventual inclusion of a mothership.
Bio does not counter this strategy directly, because carriers are air units...and templar storm is going to kill the only viable counter to pure carriers - mass 3/3 marines to kill interceptors.
Mech works in the sense that you're less vulnerable to templars, but it does not work in the sense that you can never attack protoss if you go heavy tank mech and they turtle into carriers...as over half your army will be tanks/hellions and you'll suddenly have to do a massive tech switch to the only available counter carrier measure - mass vikings, which also is countered by templars and vortex.
All right, so we've narrowed that down. What has worked for me one time versus this strategy, was a bio mech mix of mass marines, mass tanks, and vikings + ghosts which turned out into an insane game of emping templars and then hitting expansions with tanks/marine, with marines killing the interceptors, and vikings killing the carriers.
The other more viable strategy I believe, and I've also seen drewbie use it once versus a turtle templar/carrier player on his stream, was what I just tried in a game which was standard bio/viking, into mass BCS/ghosts. This I think would be the main counter, but I am wondering what other Terrans high up on the ladder are doing.
How should Terran go about fighting mass carrier + templar? Here is the replay of a recent game where I played versus this strategy (and lost), and I went for mass 3/3 BCS with ghosts.
You'll notice the protoss almost never commits to an attack, and instead gets a few collosus and immediately goes to the amulet upgrade into the strategy I have just described.
Any tips or ideas on what I could have done better are appreciated, as I don't think the strategy itself is imbalanced, but you just have to be really on the ball and get into the BC lategame to beat carrier/templars.
I use carriers all the time in my play against terran... if the game lasts until I'm on 3+ bases and he's not going bio/viking. If he's mech, carriers are coming out. Templar are my favorite tech path, so I generally open colossus to survive long enough to get templar out, since as protoss the terran has the agression ability early game. Once the colossus are out, I look to take out their army before vikings are out while I tech to high templar, and from there I rely on my ability to reinforce anywhere with storm/archons to counter their mobility.
The problem with carriers AND high templar at the same time is that both units are very very gas expensive, and the tech for both takes forever to get out. Each carrier is 250 gas, plus the fleet beacon (200) and 150 for the stargate. Not to mention the upgrade at the fleet beacon. Each high templar is 150 gas, and there's a ton for the tech and upgrades too. It's not even a remotely considerable option unless you're on 3-4 bases, and usually you'd be better off dumping your resources into something other than carriers at that point, like void rays or immortals to deal with the units terran will get to beat your high temp/zealots.
Oh, and if the protoss is getting mass cannons, just expand wherever the frick you like, he can't pressure you at all if you're macroing well. Tanks laugh at cannons too.
On January 31 2011 09:27 Whitewing wrote: I use carriers all the time in my play against terran... if the game lasts until I'm on 3+ bases and he's not going bio/viking. If he's mech, carriers are coming out. Templar are my favorite tech path, so I generally open colossus to survive long enough to get templar out, since as protoss the terran has the agression ability early game. Once the colossus are out, I look to take out their army before vikings are out while I tech to high templar, and from there I rely on my ability to reinforce anywhere with storm/archons to counter their mobility.
The problem with carriers AND high templar at the same time is that both units are very very gas expensive, and the tech for both takes forever to get out. Each carrier is 250 gas, plus the fleet beacon (200) and 150 for the stargate. Not to mention the upgrade at the fleet beacon. Each high templar is 150 gas, and there's a ton for the tech and upgrades too. It's not even a remotely considerable option unless you're on 3-4 bases, and usually you'd be better off dumping your resources into something other than carriers at that point, like void rays or immortals to deal with the units terran will get to beat your high temp/zealots.
Oh, and if the protoss is getting mass cannons, just expand wherever the frick you like, he can't pressure you at all if you're macroing well. Tanks laugh at cannons too.
It's not a theorycraft...it's past the point of "being a remote considerable option." It's a completely viable option. That's the point of this thread. Carriers are a better resource sink late game than immortals/voids with this strategy...
You seem, like many others, to be stuck with the notion that "carriers are bad." They are not. There's obviously very good since so many top protoss are doing this exact strategy a lot of their pvt games.
i watched the replay that you named "carriertemplarfaggot" and you sat around making only bcs and not attacking vs an army consisting of void rays and carriers and then complained a lot and called your opponent bad and apparently made a thread about it. i think its pretty clear who the faggot is.
It's a viable option if you're on 3-4 bases and you've had lots and lots of time to tech, in which case your terran opponent is being far too passive, and should have way more economy than you do, or should have an army easily able to break it. Mech/vikings should crush this.
How about emping your bcs? those feedbacks just seem so painful. In those numbers BCs are rough to deal with even without the yamatos... In the battle at the 40min mark you took 2k dmg from feedbacks, that's around 40% of the dmg you took in that fight. I don't know, just an idea. Your offensive capabilities would drop, but your units would be a lot beefier as a result.
an avilo qq thread about me? i am honored! gg. i really should have been able to close it out on 3 bases but i forgot my hts.. i think after the fight at my nat you were a lititle behind so it's not the craziest thing in the world that I could outexpo in the mid late game
On January 31 2011 09:42 laegoose wrote: Nice game, it seems that protoss is just stronger if map is split in halves. OR you should go not pure BC but vikings/BC.
I have tried that once I think, but I don't think it's too good as the carriers just rip the vikings to shreds with storm. When I went more BCS instead of vikings, I had more success so far. Storm is just very scary vs mass vikings.
Can't watch the replay atm but perhaps try to harass with drops. If they have cannons surrounding their base you could mass expand and take the map. This way you will probably have plenty of scans and will be able to actively scout their unit composition and adjust accordingly.
Alright so I watched your game and there were two things that really bothered me.
1. During the first big engagement, when almost broke the Protoss completely, you failed to macro during the battle. It wasn't until after the battle was over that you started to produce things out of your production facilities again, If you had macroed during that time, you would have been a more favorable position after the fight. Also, before you engaged at his gold, I think you would have been pretty well off with a drop into his main with your army. His army would have had to walk a long time to respond, and if he wasn't careful, his collosus would have been out of position, letting you snipe them more easily with your Vikings.
2. After seeing the carrier transition, I'm not sure that a Battle Cruiser response was a good idea. BC are like the old Thor and Corrupter, having energy on them is a horrible idea. Because of that, the Templar were able to feedback you pretty harshly. Another slight problem I had was that your ghost control slipped a bit during the fight near your 7 o'clock at I think the 40 minute marker. If you had gone for vikings instead, you would have been able to defeat the force for sure (thinking back to Jinro vs MC on Scrapes, I know its a completely different situation, but Vikings > Carriers).
Overall, you had a pretty dominant beginning, but I feel like you lost the game due to a mix of not macroing at certain key points and a few small strategic decisions. Overall though, you played really well, and if I had to label one key point as the reason why you lost, the transition to Battle Cruisers was a blunder.
.and templar storm is going to kill the only viable counter to pure carriers - mass 3/3 marines to kill interceptors.
Woah woah woah. Mass Battlecruiser is way better at wrecking interceptors. They tank carriers for a ridiculous amount of time, and you can safely place units behind them to assist. As for killing carriers, sorry. Terran doesn't do too good in that area. You basically have to kill the interceptors and then pull in marine/viking to finish the job. Rushing in for the kill right away doesn't work past a critical mass of carriers, and especially not with HT cover.
The ghosts were great, but where's the EMP? I saw EMP against the Templar, but never against the Protoss fleet. This would have made all the difference later on.
Nukes. You tried some, but not nearly enough. Spam those nukes. Try hitting multiple bases at once. They're cheap, and are virtually impossible to block when you pour them down. Don't nuke a dead Nexus, and don't nuke dead Assimilators. Go for the most recent expansions.
One thing that Carriers HATE, are flying structures. Fly in your barracks and starports. This will draw out the interceptors and let your units score lots of free fire.
Don't spread out missile turrets. They really really need to stay clustered together or they'll get picked off. If you want to push an attack, try walking in missile turrets with your victory fleet. This lets you engage with maximum firepower and will help cover a retreat. If you're pushing from the side, bring in a dropship full of SCVs to do repairs and to spam a turret stronghold.
SCVs belong with EVERY mech attack. Repairing stuff is that good. Get used to bringing a few, and your attacks will last much longer.
On January 31 2011 09:45 Zarahtra wrote: How about emping your bcs? those feedbacks just seem so painful. In those numbers BCs are rough to deal with even without the yamatos... In the battle at the 40min mark you took 2k dmg from feedbacks, that's around 40% of the dmg you took in that fight. I don't know, just an idea. Your offensive capabilities would drop, but your units would be a lot beefier as a result.
I was thinking about that. In the game I was going for trying to emp the templars so I could maintain yamatos. I think if you EMP the BCS, they will just use storm instead...so i'm not sure.
On January 31 2011 09:47 Alejandrisha wrote: an avilo qq thread about me? i am honored! gg. i really should have been able to close it out on 3 bases but i forgot my hts.. i think after the fight at my nat you were a lititle behind so it's not the craziest thing in the world that I could outexpo in the mid late game
Thread isn't about you. It's to discuss the turtle templar/carrier strategy. The thing with the game is, when you reach that point, I can't attack you cost efficiently as you'll just decimate my army with templar warp-ins. I believe I even EMP'd a huge clump of templar at one point, attacked, and the entire bio ball ends up being decimated with carriers re-joining the fight again after that.
And the reason I fought at the natural is I realized you were stopping collosus and going for templar turtle...I had more vikings at the time to be able to kill you then, but storms changed the fight. Maybe I should have waited and played defensive...but that plays into turtle templar/carrier's hands...
It seems you have to suicide bio as cost effectively as possible, and then get the BCS up.
or maybe just thors instead of bcs. Thor + MM is strong against this unit combo. imo. it's true that storm decimates marines and stuff but you can just hide them behind your thors and then stimpack-suicide when you need them to kill all the interceptors.
I don't understand the argument you made for why mech dies to high templar carriers.
QUOTE: Mech works in the sense that you're less vulnerable to templars, but it does not work in the sense that you can never attack protoss if you go heavy tank mech and they turtle into carriers...as over half your army will be tanks/hellions and you'll suddenly have to do a massive tech switch to the only available counter carrier measure - mass vikings, which also is countered by templars and vortex. END QUOTE
If they go for templars first, you should have more than enough time to get your siege push going.
If they go for carriers first, just make vikings and then push either while the carrier numbers are low, or some time before the high templar have storm/amulet?
If it gets to the scenario where they have storm and carriers without dying to a push yet, just start producing thors and vikings and turret up your push and sit on your current tank numbers? Obviously you constantly try to snipe HT with hellions.
It's really important to scout the carrier switch in advance and have a stockpile of vikings to meet the first couple of carriers that pop out. Other than that, I think an important thing to remember when dealing with carriers as mech is it's okay to unsiege and run away from your hard earned push with your tail between your legs in order to have more time to get vikings out if the carriers suprise you or overpower you, so that the tanks stay alive.
I find most tosses just don't have the army to stop a push when they tech to carriers, and since you'll have task force of vikings out ahead of time, the carriers wont be enough to defend the push and you just put the nail in their coffin with constant reinforcement/siege push.
Hmm, interesting.. I think the game was lost where you were both 200/200 around 50 minute mark and you had 250 minerals while he had like 12k.. How is that possible? I suppose that repair on BCs drained you so much?
As for the final fight, I think you would've won if you splitted your BCs to have some arc.. Overall I think its possible to fight that, just a bit better micro on ghosts and find better possition for fights.. Nice game tho..
Yeah I agree with what you said about a carrier/ht combo being impossible to fight with traditional mmm or mech.
Recently I've been trying a MMM fe into a thor/hellion/ghost transition which works great vs ht but isn't that great vs carriers. BCs are an interesting idea though, I should give that a shot. Instead of sinking my money into ghosts, I can spend it on BC because the bulk of my army will not care about storm. Then with 6 OCs, I can spam mules and get a ton of hellions for harass/sniping ht.
On January 31 2011 10:06 QQmonster wrote: I don't understand the argument you made for why mech dies to high templar carriers.
QUOTE: Mech works in the sense that you're less vulnerable to templars, but it does not work in the sense that you can never attack protoss if you go heavy tank mech and they turtle into carriers...as over half your army will be tanks/hellions and you'll suddenly have to do a massive tech switch to the only available counter carrier measure - mass vikings, which also is countered by templars and vortex. END QUOTE
If they go for templars first, you should have more than enough time to get your siege push going.
If they go for carriers first, just make vikings and then push either while the carrier numbers are low, or some time before the high templar have storm/amulet?
If it gets to the scenario where they have storm and carriers without dying to a push yet, just start producing thors and vikings and turret up your push and sit on your current tank numbers? Obviously you constantly try to snipe HT with hellions.
It's really important to scout the carrier switch in advance and have a stockpile of vikings to meet the first couple of carriers that pop out. Other than that, I think an important thing to remember when dealing with carriers as mech is it's okay to unsiege and run away from your hard earned push with your tail between your legs in order to have more time to get vikings out if the carriers suprise you or overpower you, so that the tanks stay alive.
I find most tosses just don't have the army to stop a push when they tech to carriers, and since you'll have task force of vikings out ahead of time, the carriers wont be enough to defend the push and you just put the nail in their coffin with constant reinforcement/siege push.
If P transitions from colo to ht to carrier, it's pretty darn safe and there isn't a real timing window to attack as terran. If P skips ht for carriers, then it's definitely beatable as rine/thor/viking will beat that pretty hard.
This is the hardest combo to play against. Possibly even imbalanced
You will basically need everything -
Ghosts to emp HT/carrier ball/mothership Enough Vikings to do enough spike damage to actually kill carrier in a single volley Thors to soak up the damage from storms that do hit and carriers and possibly any gateway units.
The problem is that it's so fucking expensive, so you have to be a base up going into lategame to actually get that unit combination. Also since you're getting both air and mech and infantry, you can't possibly have upgrades for ALL of them. Reducing ghost cost might help this combination to actually get more vikings out. I'm not sure.
Okay, so the problem is this basically. In broodwar, when u upgraded HT energy, they started out with 62 energy - not enough to storm. Also, it took time for them to build. Because you can warp in HTs, you basically get the unit NOW and then wait out the cooldown, which actually lets you stack up way more energy. Say you start an HT at 9:55 in SC2. It finishes in 5 seconds at 10:00 and has 75 energy. In BW it would finish at 10:45 and have 62 energy. By 10:45, the SC2 templar would actually have more than 100 energy. Not only is this a 40 energy buff essentially, but you get that HT anywhere on the map for just 100 extra minerals, which is also incidentally the difference in cost between HT and ghost.
yeah its a tough combo to fight against. bc's can work... I dont really know what else tbh other than getting lucky emps somehow on temps so you dont get feedbacked or stormed to hell.
in this specific rep avilo doesn't fight very cost effective leading up to the end game battle, he actually wins the first end game fight but he has 100 minerals vs 12000 banked by protoss. some of this could have been like 4000-5000+ spent on command centers/planetarys/oc's, protoss is able to be way more cost effective going into the end game.
One thing I noticed in your major fleet battle, was a dozen+ yamato blasts going off. However, they didn't seem to score many kills. Why?
I was curious, so I tested this out. One Yamato won't kill a Carrier (duh). But two EMPs and one Yamato will. Yamato blast is not reduced by armor, so it deals the exact 300 damage needed to break an unshielded Carrier. If you had known this, you would likely have come out with a sweeping victory.
Next time try EMP+EMP, then Yamato the hell out of everything. Fear not, Yamato Cannon can not target Interceptors (I tested that too, just in case).
On January 31 2011 10:06 QQmonster wrote: I don't understand the argument you made for why mech dies to high templar carriers.
QUOTE: Mech works in the sense that you're less vulnerable to templars, but it does not work in the sense that you can never attack protoss if you go heavy tank mech and they turtle into carriers...as over half your army will be tanks/hellions and you'll suddenly have to do a massive tech switch to the only available counter carrier measure - mass vikings, which also is countered by templars and vortex. END QUOTE
If they go for templars first, you should have more than enough time to get your siege push going.
If they go for carriers first, just make vikings and then push either while the carrier numbers are low, or some time before the high templar have storm/amulet?
If it gets to the scenario where they have storm and carriers without dying to a push yet, just start producing thors and vikings and turret up your push and sit on your current tank numbers? Obviously you constantly try to snipe HT with hellions.
It's really important to scout the carrier switch in advance and have a stockpile of vikings to meet the first couple of carriers that pop out. Other than that, I think an important thing to remember when dealing with carriers as mech is it's okay to unsiege and run away from your hard earned push with your tail between your legs in order to have more time to get vikings out if the carriers suprise you or overpower you, so that the tanks stay alive.
I find most tosses just don't have the army to stop a push when they tech to carriers, and since you'll have task force of vikings out ahead of time, the carriers wont be enough to defend the push and you just put the nail in their coffin with constant reinforcement/siege push.
If P transitions from colo to ht to carrier, it's pretty darn safe and there isn't a real timing window to attack as terran. If P skips ht for carriers, then it's definitely beatable as rine/thor/viking will beat that pretty hard.
Huh? Transitioning from collosus into carriers is among the worst things a protoss user could do... The terran will already have a bunch of vikings out and will just straight up roll the toss as soon as his carriers pop out.
On January 31 2011 10:33 bobucles wrote: One thing I noticed in your major fleet battle, was a dozen+ yamato blasts going off. However, they didn't seem to score many kills. Why?
I was curious, so I tested this out. One Yamato won't kill a Carrier (duh). But two EMPs and one Yamato will. Yamato blast is not reduced by armor, so it deals the exact 300 damage needed to break an unshielded Carrier. If you had known this, you would likely have come out with a sweeping victory.
Next time try EMP+EMP, then Yamato the hell out of everything. Fear not, Yamato Cannon can not target Interceptors (I tested that too, just in case).
That is good to know, I will remember that for next time I get in a scenario like this. I was really trying to snipe the templars/emp them, but didn't think about just pure emp on the carriers.
The Protoss had 12 cannons at 40 mins spread over 4 bases. This is apparently mass cannon turtling with khaydarin as you say?
You sat on an FE that was pretty much impossible to break since bunkers are free. Do you feel good getting 500 minerals back instantly after they were used to make your FE pretty much invulnerable?
You said the Protoss didn't deserve to win. You had the same amount of bases, played one game vs carriers up till that point I guess and somehow came to the conclusion that it was the most abusive strat ever. I'm sure anyone could randomly pick 10 of your replays and most of them would include some sort of scv pull attacks off 1 or 2 base. SCV threat/priority before the patch was not even the most abusive thing in sc2 but way more abusive than some ' mass cannon templar turtle into carrier ' strat that you seem to claim. How many times have you played vs carrier in your entire time playing sc2. Ask any protoss player how many times they played vs scv pull.
You were the first to expand, and the only reason you were slightly behind on your third vs him was because you forgot to macro during your attack on his natural. He's ' always ahead in bases mid-game ' because you forgot to macro.
At one point you had 8 starports making bcs vs his 4 stargates making carriers. Hmmm maybe BCs aren't the counter to carriers? Nah, let's make a TL thread.
The reason the Protoss doesn't commit to an attack was because he doesn't split his templars and they pretty much got EMP'd every time. The first attack he tried with templars they were lagging way behind. There's no reason for him to commit. If he split his templars/avoided emp better I'm sure there would have been more attacks.
You use incredible hyperbole to make it seem like the strats you lose to are unbeatable and have an excuse for every possible situation without actually playing them out in game. Then you tag on a ' discuss ' sentence to make it seem like you aren't crying imba.
On January 31 2011 09:44 rycho wrote: i watched the replay that you named "carriertemplarfaggot" and you sat around making only bcs and not attacking vs an army consisting of void rays and carriers and then complained a lot and called your opponent bad and apparently made a thread about it. i think its pretty clear who the faggot is.
On January 31 2011 10:06 QQmonster wrote: I don't understand the argument you made for why mech dies to high templar carriers.
QUOTE: Mech works in the sense that you're less vulnerable to templars, but it does not work in the sense that you can never attack protoss if you go heavy tank mech and they turtle into carriers...as over half your army will be tanks/hellions and you'll suddenly have to do a massive tech switch to the only available counter carrier measure - mass vikings, which also is countered by templars and vortex. END QUOTE
If they go for templars first, you should have more than enough time to get your siege push going.
If they go for carriers first, just make vikings and then push either while the carrier numbers are low, or some time before the high templar have storm/amulet?
If it gets to the scenario where they have storm and carriers without dying to a push yet, just start producing thors and vikings and turret up your push and sit on your current tank numbers? Obviously you constantly try to snipe HT with hellions.
It's really important to scout the carrier switch in advance and have a stockpile of vikings to meet the first couple of carriers that pop out. Other than that, I think an important thing to remember when dealing with carriers as mech is it's okay to unsiege and run away from your hard earned push with your tail between your legs in order to have more time to get vikings out if the carriers suprise you or overpower you, so that the tanks stay alive.
I find most tosses just don't have the army to stop a push when they tech to carriers, and since you'll have task force of vikings out ahead of time, the carriers wont be enough to defend the push and you just put the nail in their coffin with constant reinforcement/siege push.
If P transitions from colo to ht to carrier, it's pretty darn safe and there isn't a real timing window to attack as terran. If P skips ht for carriers, then it's definitely beatable as rine/thor/viking will beat that pretty hard.
Huh? Transitioning from collosus into carriers is among the worst things a protoss user could do... The terran will already have a bunch of vikings out and will just straight up roll the toss as soon as his carriers pop out.
He didn't say collosus into carriers...he said collosus into HT into carriers...basically what this thread is about...
On January 31 2011 10:06 QQmonster wrote: I don't understand the argument you made for why mech dies to high templar carriers.
QUOTE: Mech works in the sense that you're less vulnerable to templars, but it does not work in the sense that you can never attack protoss if you go heavy tank mech and they turtle into carriers...as over half your army will be tanks/hellions and you'll suddenly have to do a massive tech switch to the only available counter carrier measure - mass vikings, which also is countered by templars and vortex. END QUOTE
If they go for templars first, you should have more than enough time to get your siege push going.
If they go for carriers first, just make vikings and then push either while the carrier numbers are low, or some time before the high templar have storm/amulet?
If it gets to the scenario where they have storm and carriers without dying to a push yet, just start producing thors and vikings and turret up your push and sit on your current tank numbers? Obviously you constantly try to snipe HT with hellions.
It's really important to scout the carrier switch in advance and have a stockpile of vikings to meet the first couple of carriers that pop out. Other than that, I think an important thing to remember when dealing with carriers as mech is it's okay to unsiege and run away from your hard earned push with your tail between your legs in order to have more time to get vikings out if the carriers suprise you or overpower you, so that the tanks stay alive.
I find most tosses just don't have the army to stop a push when they tech to carriers, and since you'll have task force of vikings out ahead of time, the carriers wont be enough to defend the push and you just put the nail in their coffin with constant reinforcement/siege push.
If P transitions from colo to ht to carrier, it's pretty darn safe and there isn't a real timing window to attack as terran. If P skips ht for carriers, then it's definitely beatable as rine/thor/viking will beat that pretty hard.
Huh? Transitioning from collosus into carriers is among the worst things a protoss user could do... The terran will already have a bunch of vikings out and will just straight up roll the toss as soon as his carriers pop out.
I'm pretty sure you need to reread what he said. "If P transitions from colo to ht to carrier, it's pretty darn safe.."
On January 31 2011 10:37 Ack1027 wrote: The Protoss had 12 cannons at 40 mins spread over 4 bases. This is apparently mass cannon turtling with khaydarin as you say?
You sat on an FE that was pretty much impossible to break since bunkers are free. Do you feel good getting 500 minerals back instantly after they were used to make your FE pretty much invulnerable?
You said the Protoss didn't deserve to win. You had the same amount of bases, played one game vs carriers up till that point I guess and somehow came to the conclusion that it was the most abusive strat ever. I'm sure anyone could randomly pick 10 of your replays and most of them would include some sort of scv pull attacks off 1 or 2 base. SCV threat/priority before the patch was not even the most abusive thing in sc2 but way more abusive than some ' mass cannon templar turtle into carrier ' strat that you seem to claim. How many times have you played vs carrier in your entire time playing sc2. Ask any protoss player how many times they played vs scv pull.
You were the first to expand, and the only reason you were slightly behind on your third vs him was because you forgot to macro during your attack on his natural. He's ' always ahead in bases mid-game ' because you forgot to macro.
At one point you had 8 starports making bcs vs his 4 stargates making carriers. Hmmm maybe BCs aren't the counter to carriers? Nah, let's make a TL thread.
The reason the Protoss doesn't commit to an attack was because he doesn't split his templars and they pretty much got EMP'd every time. The first attack he tried with templars they were lagging way behind. There's no reason for him to commit. If he split his templars/avoided emp better I'm sure there would have been more attacks.
You use incredible hyperbole to make it seem like the strats you lose to are unbeatable and have an excuse for every possible situation without actually playing them out in game. Then you tag on a ' discuss ' sentence to make it seem like you aren't crying imba.
On January 31 2011 09:44 rycho wrote: i watched the replay that you named "carriertemplarfaggot" and you sat around making only bcs and not attacking vs an army consisting of void rays and carriers and then complained a lot and called your opponent bad and apparently made a thread about it. i think its pretty clear who the faggot is.
^ pretty much sums up the end of the game.
You whine a lot.
You whine in your second paragraph more than you claim I did in my OP. I was not whining at all in the OP, I was asking for advice and wanted to generated discussion on how to beat this as it's very strong.
And as mentioned, mass bio does not beat carriers, let alone templars, unless you hit clutch EMPs. Mech doesn't beat carriers either...that's why I chose bio into BCS.
Also, if you knew my play style you'd know I rarely ever pull mass scvs for allins tvp. I'm actually one of the turtliest players/defensive ones there is...but that's not the point. Getting to the late game 200 vs 200 situation vs carrier/templar is what this is about.
On January 31 2011 10:37 Ack1027 wrote: The Protoss had 12 cannons at 40 mins spread over 4 bases. This is apparently mass cannon turtling with khaydarin as you say?
You sat on an FE that was pretty much impossible to break since bunkers are free. Do you feel good getting 500 minerals back instantly after they were used to make your FE pretty much invulnerable?
You said the Protoss didn't deserve to win. You had the same amount of bases, played one game vs carriers up till that point I guess and somehow came to the conclusion that it was the most abusive strat ever. I'm sure anyone could randomly pick 10 of your replays and most of them would include some sort of scv pull attacks off 1 or 2 base. SCV threat/priority before the patch was not even the most abusive thing in sc2 but way more abusive than some ' mass cannon templar turtle into carrier ' strat that you seem to claim. How many times have you played vs carrier in your entire time playing sc2. Ask any protoss player how many times they played vs scv pull.
You were the first to expand, and the only reason you were slightly behind on your third vs him was because you forgot to macro during your attack on his natural. He's ' always ahead in bases mid-game ' because you forgot to macro.
At one point you had 8 starports making bcs vs his 4 stargates making carriers. Hmmm maybe BCs aren't the counter to carriers? Nah, let's make a TL thread.
The reason the Protoss doesn't commit to an attack was because he doesn't split his templars and they pretty much got EMP'd every time. The first attack he tried with templars they were lagging way behind. There's no reason for him to commit. If he split his templars/avoided emp better I'm sure there would have been more attacks.
You use incredible hyperbole to make it seem like the strats you lose to are unbeatable and have an excuse for every possible situation without actually playing them out in game. Then you tag on a ' discuss ' sentence to make it seem like you aren't crying imba.
On January 31 2011 09:44 rycho wrote: i watched the replay that you named "carriertemplarfaggot" and you sat around making only bcs and not attacking vs an army consisting of void rays and carriers and then complained a lot and called your opponent bad and apparently made a thread about it. i think its pretty clear who the faggot is.
^ pretty much sums up the end of the game.
You whine a lot.
You whine in your second paragraph more than you claim I did in my OP. I was not whining at all in the OP, I was asking for advice and wanted to generated discussion on how to beat this as it's very strong.
And as mentioned, mass bio does not beat carriers, let alone templars, unless you hit clutch EMPs. Mech doesn't beat carriers either...that's why I chose bio into BCS.
Could you give a couple replays of you playing mech and dying to carriers? I want to see what you're basing this statement on.
Watched the replay and it looked like a standard tvp to me. I think earlier on there was a timing window where you had your natural up a decent amount of time (4-5 min?) before he did? You could have tried to use that window to hit him with your early bio army, before any tech was up and before he could macro enough to defend efficiently. There were a few sloppy overstims here and there, the most noticeable one I recall was when you engaged his army while he was taking his 3rd and stimmed a lot without doing much damage to his army and putting your units in red-orange for the majority of the fight.
As for the HT-Carrier combo, I think ghost/bc/viking sounds like a decent counter, almost what you had except you were mostly bc/ghosts. If you get enough vikings, they can snipe the carriers while sitting behind the bcs for "cover" while the interceptors engage the bcs (unless they micro to try and kill your vikings of course). You'll just have to be johnny on the spot with your ghosts and have very good emps on his army to avoid getting feedbacked and stormed to death. Even if you lose a lot of your ghosts if you get 1-2 good emps off and he's missing nearly all his energy and/or shields on his units, you can pretty much go in and clean house.
I think what you should transition into to counter his tech switch to carriers depends on whether or not you went for mech or bio first. If you went for a more mech-based play with thors tanks etc. then it would be easier to just add vikings (as you wouldn't have gas for bc-based counters) and have your thor/marine/tank/viking combo push into his base as he's teching to carriers (like Jinro did on scrap), before the number gets ridiculous. If you went for a bio-based play, then you'd probably have a lot more gas available and it feels like it would be easier to get bcs along with vikings and ghosts.
On January 31 2011 10:37 Ack1027 wrote: The Protoss had 12 cannons at 40 mins spread over 4 bases. This is apparently mass cannon turtling with khaydarin as you say?
You sat on an FE that was pretty much impossible to break since bunkers are free. Do you feel good getting 500 minerals back instantly after they were used to make your FE pretty much invulnerable?
You said the Protoss didn't deserve to win. You had the same amount of bases, played one game vs carriers up till that point I guess and somehow came to the conclusion that it was the most abusive strat ever. I'm sure anyone could randomly pick 10 of your replays and most of them would include some sort of scv pull attacks off 1 or 2 base. SCV threat/priority before the patch was not even the most abusive thing in sc2 but way more abusive than some ' mass cannon templar turtle into carrier ' strat that you seem to claim. How many times have you played vs carrier in your entire time playing sc2. Ask any protoss player how many times they played vs scv pull.
You were the first to expand, and the only reason you were slightly behind on your third vs him was because you forgot to macro during your attack on his natural. He's ' always ahead in bases mid-game ' because you forgot to macro.
At one point you had 8 starports making bcs vs his 4 stargates making carriers. Hmmm maybe BCs aren't the counter to carriers? Nah, let's make a TL thread.
The reason the Protoss doesn't commit to an attack was because he doesn't split his templars and they pretty much got EMP'd every time. The first attack he tried with templars they were lagging way behind. There's no reason for him to commit. If he split his templars/avoided emp better I'm sure there would have been more attacks.
You use incredible hyperbole to make it seem like the strats you lose to are unbeatable and have an excuse for every possible situation without actually playing them out in game. Then you tag on a ' discuss ' sentence to make it seem like you aren't crying imba.
On January 31 2011 09:44 rycho wrote: i watched the replay that you named "carriertemplarfaggot" and you sat around making only bcs and not attacking vs an army consisting of void rays and carriers and then complained a lot and called your opponent bad and apparently made a thread about it. i think its pretty clear who the faggot is.
^ pretty much sums up the end of the game.
You whine a lot.
You whine in your second paragraph more than you claim I did in my OP. I was not whining at all in the OP, I was asking for advice and wanted to generated discussion on how to beat this as it's very strong.
And as mentioned, mass bio does not beat carriers, let alone templars, unless you hit clutch EMPs. Mech doesn't beat carriers either...that's why I chose bio into BCS.
Could you give a couple replays of you playing mech and dying to carriers? I want to see what you're basing this statement on.
I'm basing it on experience playing this game...and it's also generally known knowledge among Terran players...I'm not going to post my entire replay folder, that's ridiculous. But I will post a few more later perhaps. The one I have in the OP is the pretty standard templar/carrier strat that I'm talking about tho.
Yap, I use this all the time against Terran, though I don't turtle up, I open with the phoenix, scouting, harassing, lifting tanks while I tech to storm, if storm alone can't cut it I trade the phoenix for the carrier and there is no real Terran answer I feel. The two things that spring to mind are marines and vikings, both die so easily to storm. Once they are killed, your carriers can go to work unchallenged, unless you want to rely on thors?
The point is that when I look back at the stats, what saves me from feeling guilty is that I was economically heavily ahead. I'm kind of like IdrA, I tend to throw a more costly army away into the meatgrinder because I tend to engage in bad positions. HT/carrier may be strong, but only if you have enough carriers for it to actually matter, and carriers are anything but cheap, ht's are also pretty expensive on the gas.
It may be nigh invincible against Terran, but only if you have a superior economy to support it, if the terran is on more bases and has a higher income you can forget it.
Another thing you have to realize is that an HT/carrier army is slow as fuck. You need to attack at multiple places and he can't do anything. You also can't split it up really, you need it in one giant ball. And if he just attacks you, you can be back in time to defend, because both carriers and HT's are pretty slow unit in contrast to the other protoss units.
On January 31 2011 10:37 Ack1027 wrote: a some-what aggressive post
Maybe the replay doesn't show it, but the composition is very powerful, you can't really beat it head-on, I think, you need to take advantage of the fact of how slow this deadball is.
It may be nigh invincible against Terran, but only if you have a superior economy to support it, if the terran is on more bases and has a higher income you can forget it.
Another thing you have to realize is that an HT/carrier army is slow as fuck. You need to attack at multiple places and he can't do anything. You also can't split it up really, you need it in one giant ball. And if he just attacks you, you can be back in time to defend, because both carriers and HT's are pretty slow unit in contrast to the other protoss units.
But think about it, if you split the map, then you are on even income. It's hard for P to attack into PFs, but it's also hard for T to attack into storm.
BCs are just as slow as HTs actually, and carriers are faster than BCs and same speed as ghosts, so P army actually wins the mobility battle, even being super slow. Also defensive vortex against yamato + feedback.
If protoss actually switched to voidrays earlier, it would have been even worse imo.
The problem with BC and ghosts is that it is reactionary. HT and Carriers will kill everything you have, and any decent protoss will use that combination to destroy everything. BCs cannot exploit range to destroy anti air like carriers can, and ghosts do not have lethal AOE damage.
The only purpose of getting BC ghost is to beat Carrier / HT, you do not get it in any other situation, because BC/ghost is not as cost effective vs the anti air of protoss as ht/carrier is cost effective vs the anti air of Terran. Thus, going into the late game, the protoss will have the advantage no matter what in transitioning, because terran can only transition after the protoss.
The way to beat protoss with mech is to FORCE him into maxing out on gateway/robo units ONLY. This is the only way to stop transitions from protoss with mech. Then you will have one single huge encounter where mech destroys the gateway units, and terran's mech rolls through everything protoss has. If you do not force protoss into maxing on gateway/robo units ONLY until you push, you lose, because any air transition with HT support will defeat mech.
On January 31 2011 09:45 Zarahtra wrote: How about emping your bcs? those feedbacks just seem so painful. In those numbers BCs are rough to deal with even without the yamatos... In the battle at the 40min mark you took 2k dmg from feedbacks, that's around 40% of the dmg you took in that fight. I don't know, just an idea. Your offensive capabilities would drop, but your units would be a lot beefier as a result.
I was thinking about that. In the game I was going for trying to emp the templars so I could maintain yamatos. I think if you EMP the BCS, they will just use storm instead...so i'm not sure.
On January 31 2011 09:47 Alejandrisha wrote: an avilo qq thread about me? i am honored! gg. i really should have been able to close it out on 3 bases but i forgot my hts.. i think after the fight at my nat you were a lititle behind so it's not the craziest thing in the world that I could outexpo in the mid late game
Thread isn't about you. It's to discuss the turtle templar/carrier strategy. The thing with the game is, when you reach that point, I can't attack you cost efficiently as you'll just decimate my army with templar warp-ins. I believe I even EMP'd a huge clump of templar at one point, attacked, and the entire bio ball ends up being decimated with carriers re-joining the fight again after that.
And the reason I fought at the natural is I realized you were stopping collosus and going for templar turtle...I had more vikings at the time to be able to kill you then, but storms changed the fight. Maybe I should have waited and played defensive...but that plays into turtle templar/carrier's hands...
It seems you have to suicide bio as cost effectively as possible, and then get the BCS up.
im 99% sure you cant emp ur own units
I am truely amazed of how many Avilo haters there are. i personally love him even tho i have to listen the same song 90 times when watching his low quality stream
edit: obviously, i was wrong. You can EMP ur own units.
Btw, what about mass Thor&Viking with ghosts. Thors dont do great vs carriers but in critical mass with Viking support?
Late game toss is very good that why as a toss i would tell you to stay very agressive and keep his numbers low. Both of the units mentioned require a good critical mass, 4 carrier is more then 2x better then 2 carriers. An agressive terran is almost impossible to beat. Dropping poking and proding etc... Protoss wants to be passive and mass up dont let it happen
On January 31 2011 09:45 Zarahtra wrote: How about emping your bcs? those feedbacks just seem so painful. In those numbers BCs are rough to deal with even without the yamatos... In the battle at the 40min mark you took 2k dmg from feedbacks, that's around 40% of the dmg you took in that fight. I don't know, just an idea. Your offensive capabilities would drop, but your units would be a lot beefier as a result.
I was thinking about that. In the game I was going for trying to emp the templars so I could maintain yamatos. I think if you EMP the BCS, they will just use storm instead...so i'm not sure.
On January 31 2011 09:47 Alejandrisha wrote: an avilo qq thread about me? i am honored! gg. i really should have been able to close it out on 3 bases but i forgot my hts.. i think after the fight at my nat you were a lititle behind so it's not the craziest thing in the world that I could outexpo in the mid late game
Thread isn't about you. It's to discuss the turtle templar/carrier strategy. The thing with the game is, when you reach that point, I can't attack you cost efficiently as you'll just decimate my army with templar warp-ins. I believe I even EMP'd a huge clump of templar at one point, attacked, and the entire bio ball ends up being decimated with carriers re-joining the fight again after that.
And the reason I fought at the natural is I realized you were stopping collosus and going for templar turtle...I had more vikings at the time to be able to kill you then, but storms changed the fight. Maybe I should have waited and played defensive...but that plays into turtle templar/carrier's hands...
It seems you have to suicide bio as cost effectively as possible, and then get the BCS up.
im 99% sure you cant emp ur own units
I am truely amazed of how many Avilo haters there are. i personally love him even tho i have to listen the same song 90 times when watching his low quality stream
99 is not enough, you are actually wrong.. You can emp own units.
LOL@all the children in this thread getting banned.
My biggest issues with this kind of style is just MASS ghost with marines, so many that you'll never ever get a storm off unless you get lucky, and you can't feedback all the ghosts. Now of course, you'd just want to make more colossi to deal with that kind of army, but it's not like you can just warp in 6 colossi.
I definitely understand your frustration Avilo, it's not easy to deal with HT+carriers, especially if you're not ahead. The best option I can say is get ahead before storm is out by taking a fast 3rd. I do think T should be able to be ahead of protoss if he opens with bio-centric play.
Ideally, you might want to consider doing more of a slowpush with turrets/tanks/vikings/hellions. I've never seen it, but imagine if you can pull it off it's much sturdier/more stable than marines.
If you want work on this stuff I'll play some games, as I definitely agree that T right now has a lot of issues vs HT/carrier.
The problem with BC and ghosts is that it is reactionary.
Not really. Ghosts are simply a good choice against Protoss all around. The BC is a reaction to protect against critical mass Carrier. If you catch it early, Marine/Viking isn't cost effective but it will kill a few Carriers. If HT's start storming them out, there's little else to do but counter with your own capital ships.
The battle may come down to whoever is faster with their Ghost/Templar. In this case, the Ghosts have the advantage with slightly better range and instant effect AoE. The Templar have their work cut out as everything needs to get hit with feedback before Carriers start dropping.
Using EMP on your Battlecruisers is a double edged sword. You should always try to neutralize the Templar first, because Yamato is critical for taking the Carriers down.
The problem with BC and ghosts is that it is reactionary.
Not really. Ghosts are simply a good choice against Protoss all around. The BC is a reaction to protect against critical mass Carrier. If you catch it early, Marine/Viking isn't cost effective but it will kill a few Carriers. If HT's start storming them out, there's little else to do but counter with your own capital ships.
The battle may come down to whoever is faster with their Ghost/Templar. In this case, the Ghosts have the advantage with slightly better range and instant effect AoE. The Templar have their work cut out as everything needs to get hit with feedback before Carriers start dropping.
Using EMP on your Battlecruisers is a double edged sword. You should always try to neutralize the Templar first, because Yamato is critical for taking the Carriers down.
Yeah but its hard to Yamato gun before the HT feedbacks, because you have to get in range plus u lose time you could be attacking. I rather EMP all my BC with 1 ghost and recieve 1 extra storm to my BC instead of the instant 150 dmg (or more) (because less energy would be even worse) Yamato gun should be 100 energy imo
I have an idea around how you could play against this strategy, it is kind of vague, and totally theorycraft, but hear me out.
By the time the toss is going col + ht, he is probably on 3 base, and in an even game P and T match expansions. This means you have 2-3 orbitals up and running, as well as vikings etc, so you should be able to scout really thoroughly.
Now comes the important part, if you have good scouting information from HT/Col onwards, you should be able to get a general idea of what his composition is, and you can custom fit your army to deal with this, it is kind of a zerg concept, but once you have enough production facilities, (see: macro) you can somewhat do the same thing.
If he is still on ht/col, obviously you want ghosts for emp, vikings for col, and a general bio mix for the rest.
If he is starting to get to the point of carrier/ht, you want less Marauder medivac, more marines, more ghosts, and a solid viking fleet, I really don't think BCs are the answer, because of energy. Now, you really have to have good ghost micro to pull it off, but you need to constantly deny observers and emp everything. once the HT are energyless and morphing, you can play more loose with your vikings and marines, as both dominate straight shieldless carrier.
If he falls back on heavy gateway units (you're constantly scouting, remember?) and you don't have the supply to pump out more marine/marauder/tank, it is going to come down to your ghost micro and viking upgrades. And your macro, you have to have a lot of fucking barracks, okay?
After writing all of this, I really think the core of your army should always be ghosts and vikings, just because vikings are an answer to col and carriers, and ghosts, if played really well, counter HT. On the subject of upgrades? Skip vehicle. Inf and Air, specifically air weapons.
Personally I would try to kill them before they get 14k+ resources in an army/upgrades/etc, but I guess I'm no pro like Avilo....
User was warned for this post
Edit: Ok I'll be serious here. Against mass carriers it is very hard to counter as a Terran once they hit a critical mass. Vikings die sooooo fast, BC's anti air is bad, marines cant get close unless you ambush them, and Ghosts cant use snipe on them.
I may have been a bit rude in my previous post but that is really the solution. You need to use ample scans to determine he is going carriers and then attack attack attack. You have to stop the Toss from hitting 5+ carriers. QXC style drop play would be my suggestion. I do know your style, and you may have to change it up vs this. I run into this about one out of every 3 FFA's I play (I'm a FFA whore) and so far I have found no solution but 3/3 marines catching the carriers offguard, and that doesn't work with HT's mixed in.
Even if the opponent gets say 15 carriers off 3 stargates that is going to take FOREVER to get them out and a pile of resources. Meaning the Protoss will be stuck in their base, with a very underfunded army, that should also be lacking upgrades.
Drop them to hell, pull out your best QXC impression. It WILL beat this, however turtling will not. HT/Carrier is sort of like 3/3 Mech was in BW, you don't beat it, you just don't let them get there.
I play mech Terran, I've encountered this strategy a few times with wins and losses.
In the games I won, I simply counter-expanded and took the other half of the map and built dozens of factories and reactored starports to mass pump any units I wanted.
In most of the games I lost, I tried timing push with a weaker economy and ended up losing my ground force to his instant warpgate reinforcements.
So from my experience it is much safer to play macro rather than committing timing pushes. Don't let your ground froce go too deep into his side, just slow creeping over the map to prevent toss from taking a 5th and use vikings to trade his carriers. Its hard to lose if you play safely because vikings are much more cost effective than carriers.
Also, I do believe that this strategy is vulnerable to a very well timed attack right after toss invests in stargates but before the carriers actually come out. Problem is this short window is very hard to exploit unless your on black sheep wall.
On January 31 2011 11:53 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Personally I would try to kill them before they get 14k+ resources in an army/upgrades/etc, but I guess I'm no pro like Avilo....
User was warned for this post
Drop them to hell, pull out your best QXC impression. It WILL beat this, however turtling will not. HT/Carrier is sort of like 3/3 Mech was in BW, you don't beat it, you just don't let them get there.
Thats not true. 200/200 3/3 Mech is still the dominating force in SC2. Its just that now vikings don't share the upgrades and you need to invest extra more to cover the air upgrades. If you have close to infinite resources (in this case you do because your opponent lets you take half of the map), mech is still unbeatable just like their BW counterpart.
On January 31 2011 11:53 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Personally I would try to kill them before they get 14k+ resources in an army/upgrades/etc, but I guess I'm no pro like Avilo....
User was warned for this post
Drop them to hell, pull out your best QXC impression. It WILL beat this, however turtling will not. HT/Carrier is sort of like 3/3 Mech was in BW, you don't beat it, you just don't let them get there.
Thats not true. 200/200 3/3 Mech is still the dominating force in SC2. Its just that now vikings don't share the upgrades and you need to invest extra more to cover the air upgrades. If you have close to infinite resources (in this case you do because your opponent lets you take half of the map), mech is still unbeatable just like their BW counterpart.
I disagree from my experience. 200/200 3/3 Mech will very very very rarely win vs 200/200 3/3/3 Carrier/HT army. There is just not enough anti air. I wish I kept my FFA replays as I could show you probably 30 different replays of me meching vs this. Hell I have gone pure viking and lost to it before...
Carrier-HT will cause more Terrans to figure out what Zergs already know: you usually don't beat a Protoss by smashing your 200 food army into his.
Winning before it gets to that point is your best bet. HTs can feedback BCs and storm Vikings and Marines, so the best options for fighting Carriers get wrecked right there.
This isn't a comment on the games balance, btw. Protoss SHOULD win battles that take place at 200 food, provided both players have correct micro and composition. That's the advantage of the race. The disadvantage is getting to the lategame without losing to harassment, expo sniping, and midgame timing pushes from T and Z.
On January 31 2011 11:53 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Personally I would try to kill them before they get 14k+ resources in an army/upgrades/etc, but I guess I'm no pro like Avilo....
User was warned for this post
Drop them to hell, pull out your best QXC impression. It WILL beat this, however turtling will not. HT/Carrier is sort of like 3/3 Mech was in BW, you don't beat it, you just don't let them get there.
Thats not true. 200/200 3/3 Mech is still the dominating force in SC2. Its just that now vikings don't share the upgrades and you need to invest extra more to cover the air upgrades. If you have close to infinite resources (in this case you do because your opponent lets you take half of the map), mech is still unbeatable just like their BW counterpart.
I disagree from my experience. 200/200 3/3 Mech will very very very rarely win vs 200/200 3/3/3 Carrier/HT army. There is just not enough anti air. I wish I kept my FFA replays as I could show you probably 30 different replays of me meching vs this. Hell I have gone pure viking and lost to it before...
FFA is NOT 1v1 do we have this understanding?
Most aerial battles happen above cliffs so templars arent really a threat. But if you choose to fight them in the protoss base with cannons and templars underneath Im not surprised you can lose. Otherwise same supply 3/3/3 carriers lose to 3/3 vikings provided you are not targeting interceptors. Mark my words.
On January 31 2011 11:53 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Personally I would try to kill them before they get 14k+ resources in an army/upgrades/etc, but I guess I'm no pro like Avilo....
User was warned for this post
Drop them to hell, pull out your best QXC impression. It WILL beat this, however turtling will not. HT/Carrier is sort of like 3/3 Mech was in BW, you don't beat it, you just don't let them get there.
Thats not true. 200/200 3/3 Mech is still the dominating force in SC2. Its just that now vikings don't share the upgrades and you need to invest extra more to cover the air upgrades. If you have close to infinite resources (in this case you do because your opponent lets you take half of the map), mech is still unbeatable just like their BW counterpart.
I disagree from my experience. 200/200 3/3 Mech will very very very rarely win vs 200/200 3/3/3 Carrier/HT army. There is just not enough anti air. I wish I kept my FFA replays as I could show you probably 30 different replays of me meching vs this. Hell I have gone pure viking and lost to it before...
FFA is NOT 1v1 do we have this understanding?
Most aerial battles happen above cliffs so templars arent really a threat. But if you choose to fight them in the protoss base with cannons and templars underneath Im not surprised you can lose. Otherwise same supply 3/3/3 carriers lose to 3/3 vikings provided you are not targeting interceptors. Mark my words.
Lol I understand they are different. Chill out.
The problem is the vikings cannot get close enough to take out the carriers. Have you ever tested this yourself? Because I sure as hell have...
On January 31 2011 11:53 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Personally I would try to kill them before they get 14k+ resources in an army/upgrades/etc, but I guess I'm no pro like Avilo....
User was warned for this post
Drop them to hell, pull out your best QXC impression. It WILL beat this, however turtling will not. HT/Carrier is sort of like 3/3 Mech was in BW, you don't beat it, you just don't let them get there.
Thats not true. 200/200 3/3 Mech is still the dominating force in SC2. Its just that now vikings don't share the upgrades and you need to invest extra more to cover the air upgrades. If you have close to infinite resources (in this case you do because your opponent lets you take half of the map), mech is still unbeatable just like their BW counterpart.
I disagree from my experience. 200/200 3/3 Mech will very very very rarely win vs 200/200 3/3/3 Carrier/HT army. There is just not enough anti air. I wish I kept my FFA replays as I could show you probably 30 different replays of me meching vs this. Hell I have gone pure viking and lost to it before...
FFA is NOT 1v1 do we have this understanding?
Most aerial battles happen above cliffs so templars arent really a threat. But if you choose to fight them in the protoss base with cannons and templars underneath Im not surprised you can lose. Otherwise same supply 3/3/3 carriers lose to 3/3 vikings provided you are not targeting interceptors. Mark my words.
Lol I understand they are different. Chill out.
The problem is the vikings cannot get close enough to take out the carriers. Have you ever tested this yourself? Because I sure as hell have...
This comes down to micro.. If you happen to micro well enough not to get stormed you will win.. But I think this is insanely difficult to do as 1 mediocre storm spell gg often..
On January 31 2011 11:53 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Personally I would try to kill them before they get 14k+ resources in an army/upgrades/etc, but I guess I'm no pro like Avilo....
User was warned for this post
Drop them to hell, pull out your best QXC impression. It WILL beat this, however turtling will not. HT/Carrier is sort of like 3/3 Mech was in BW, you don't beat it, you just don't let them get there.
Thats not true. 200/200 3/3 Mech is still the dominating force in SC2. Its just that now vikings don't share the upgrades and you need to invest extra more to cover the air upgrades. If you have close to infinite resources (in this case you do because your opponent lets you take half of the map), mech is still unbeatable just like their BW counterpart.
I disagree from my experience. 200/200 3/3 Mech will very very very rarely win vs 200/200 3/3/3 Carrier/HT army. There is just not enough anti air. I wish I kept my FFA replays as I could show you probably 30 different replays of me meching vs this. Hell I have gone pure viking and lost to it before...
FFA is NOT 1v1 do we have this understanding?
Most aerial battles happen above cliffs so templars arent really a threat. But if you choose to fight them in the protoss base with cannons and templars underneath Im not surprised you can lose. Otherwise same supply 3/3/3 carriers lose to 3/3 vikings provided you are not targeting interceptors. Mark my words.
Lol I understand they are different. Chill out.
The problem is the vikings cannot get close enough to take out the carriers. Have you ever tested this yourself? Because I sure as hell have...
This comes down to micro.. If you happen to micro well enough not to get stormed you will win.. But I think this is insanely difficult to do as 1 mediocre strom spell gg often..
Don't forget micro does not help a lot here. Once the vikings get close enough for the carriers to launch the interceptors they have to go all in. Remember a Carrier + Ceptors have a range of either 13 or 14 iirc. The vikings trying to shoot and scoot will only take more damage for their efforts.
After watching the replay... I dunno, the concept that the terran is going to sit back midgame and allow this... templar?cannon? base play is pretty unlikely. You think a few colo and some early pressure will just make the terran sit back and go, holy shit... that things so massive air units can hit it, time to bunk up on 2(maybe 3) bases and wait for them to Tier3 while we chillback with marines.
The threat is viable in the sense that yes, it's possible to transition into the gameplay but no one is starting the game going "Hey... I bet this match, i'll push out, grab map control, my opponent will turtle hard giving me a 4th expansion (meaning 4th gas) which is pretty needed to get this carrier/templar mix. and go boom, fuck you I win" every match.
Like I said, it's possible if you play an opponent who turtles, but vs bit of pressure a thought of a few warped in templars and some cannons stoping a tank/marine orientated terran (which most of us unbalanced lovers are) will rip apart that concept, all he needs is good marine control, upgraded +1 armour and extra 10 hp, plus medvac support for drop play and ur immobile cannon/templar play wont last
Mainly, if he scans ur base making carriers he should generally win.
Carriers are not bad, especially with the new upgrade to make them shoot out all at once, but as a viable strat for all games late game, impossibility. EMP/marine/viking are to strong. Don't see many pros going this build, haven't seen HuK go (HEY MAN CARRIER BAM)
Good post, but you are to biased in your opinion to take anyone elses seriously, so I doubt this will get through also.
[QUOTE]On January 31 2011 12:34 iCCup.Diamond wrote: [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 12:32 Terranium wrote: [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 12:21 iCCup.Diamond wrote: [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 12:18 Terranium wrote: [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 11:53 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Personally I would try to kill them before they get 14k+ resources in an army/upgrades/etc, but I guess I'm no pro like Avilo....
User was warned for this post
Lol I understand they are different. Chill out.
The problem is the vikings cannot get close enough to take out the carriers. Have you ever tested this yourself? Because I sure as hell have...[/QUOTE]
I already said in my first post I played carrier/HT toss before and won.
One game I remember well is a 40 min game on Shakuras. When I realized my opponent was turtling for carrier/HT, I took my half of the map and set up enormous defence at the two watch towers so he couldnt take the other 2 expos. I won after my opponent was eventually mined out on his half.
I think the best idea is to Suicide send wave after wave of marines until protoss is out of storms. With the help of mules you can effectively out macro toss.
Serious: In reality the actual ability of Toss going mass carrier HT is pretty slim, but if it does happen personally i believe mass Ghost Marine will deal with this. Pretty easily by spaming EMP like a mad man forceing Archons and the warpingo f more HTs. Toss can only spam HTs for so long, and when he runs low on gas you can pummel him in the face with Mass Marines.
On January 31 2011 12:40 MERLIN. wrote: After watching the replay... I dunno, the concept that the terran is going to sit back midgame and allow this... templar?cannon? base play is pretty unlikely. You think a few colo and some early pressure will just make the terran sit back and go, holy shit... that things so massive air units can hit it, time to bunk up on 2(maybe 3) bases and wait for them to Tier3 while we chillback with marines.
The threat is viable in the sense that yes, it's possible to transition into the gameplay but no one is starting the game going "Hey... I bet this match, i'll push out, grab map control, my opponent will turtle hard giving me a 4th expansion (meaning 4th gas) which is pretty needed to get this carrier/templar mix. and go boom, fuck you I win" every match.
Like I said, it's possible if you play an opponent who turtles, but vs bit of pressure a thought of a few warped in templars and some cannons stoping a tank/marine orientated terran (which most of us unbalanced lovers are) will rip apart that concept, all he needs is good marine control, upgraded +1 armour and extra 10 hp, plus medvac support for drop play and ur immobile cannon/templar play wont last
Mainly, if he scans ur base making carriers he should generally win.
Carriers are not bad, especially with the new upgrade to make them shoot out all at once, but as a viable strat for all games late game, impossibility. EMP/marine/viking are to strong. Don't see many pros going this build, haven't seen HuK go (HEY MAN CARRIER BAM)
Good post, but you are to biased in your opinion to take anyone elses seriously, so I doubt this will get through also.
A good immo/colo/(and eventually ht) composition will absolutely tear apart a rine/tank army.
Also, carriers are pretty efficient vs vikings, which is the most logical answer from T's side. Although people are suggesting BCs so I might give that a try.
The most important thing isn't unit compositions but pacing. Against any strategy that plays defensively and makes huge investments in tech, you have to either design an attack that breaks their defense before their tech fully pays off, or you have to expand aggressively early on to take advantage of their lack of offense. If you haven't designed an efficient way to do either of those things, or if your mechanics aren't good enough to execute those plans, then you're going to be playing from a significant disadvantage, which will skew your perspective on the strength of this Protoss strategy and composition (to make you think that it's stronger than it actually is).
Although I agree with Tyler that aggressively expanding is a real threat to any greedy tech-style from protoss....just one word on unit composition: Somebody already mentioned this, but going really HEAVY into ghosts is in my opinion great vs HT/carriers. Not only do you want to mass-EMP the templars, but you also want to EMP the carriers! Carriers may work fine vs vikings, but there is no way they will escape EMP - and without shields they drop extremely fast. No you won't just roflstomp all over them, you will probably even lose a 200/200 fight. But it should keep the carrier-number low and bleed them dry.
I've seen the replay and i don't think it is the best example of the strength of this combo. Avilo played bio and qxc drops all over the place should have won that game. The Protoss player didn't bother to micro his carriers either.
However, this carrier/HT thing, i feel, is the bane of mech. You can often times end up with a split map and resources galore. It is not the actual strength of this combo that is the problem, for me, but the "warp in" mechanic+amulet for the HTs. You can EMP all the Templars you want, it only takes 2s for 6-7 more to "warp in" and take out everything, from storming Vikings/ Marines to feedback on the BCs.
The best thing to do i find it to be EMP on the carriers and on the Momaship. EMP + stupid numbers of Vikings and making sure to have Hellions ready for the natural response of mass Zealots.
[QUOTE]On January 31 2011 09:56 avilo wrote: [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 09:45 Zarahtra wrote: [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 09:47 Alejandrisha wrote: an avilo qq thread about me? i am honored! gg. i really should have been able to close it out on 3 bases but i forgot my hts.. i think after the fight at my nat you were a lititle behind so it's not the craziest thing in the world that I could outexpo in the mid late game[/QUOTE]
Thread isn't about you. It's to discuss the turtle templar/carrier strategy. The thing with the game is, when you reach that point, I can't attack you cost efficiently as you'll just decimate my army with templar warp-ins. [/QUOTE] Feels Zergy to me :o!
Well, 3/3 BC we're probably the best idea (using EMP/Yamato to keep the energy low), you lost on control, and remember to abuse your SCVs !!
Just get a shit ton of Viking backed up by Thor/Tank. Vikings are so goddamn cost efficient, once you get enough of them they can one shot a Carrier and run away before getting hit by any Interceptors. With the removal of Voidray Speed Vikings can also kite Voidrays now.
Watching HuK's stream, he generally losses to this to a Thor/Tank/Viking(a lot of Viking)/Marine mix with constant Marauder drops. Marauders are pretty efficient vs Storm late game, they need multiple storms to be killed and spread the Templars accross the map, eventually, at least watching HuK's stream, he ends up dieing from running out of bases since Carriers are pretty darn inefficient, taking out a ton of interceptors REALLY eats into the minerals. The Terrans use Marauder drops to put Carriers in a bad position where they can be flanked by Marines and Vikings, in most cases it forces the Carriers to release their interceptors which get obliterated by the Marines then they retreat before Templar support
You can EMP all the Templars you want, it only takes 2s for 6-7 more to "warp in" and take out everything, from storming Vikings/ Marines to feedback on the BCs.
Dude...that is 14 supply and 1200-1400 Gas to just "Warp in" that many Templar, in terms of army value that is a pretty big chunk of a late game army
PS: what is it with the Avilo hate? FFS
You should check his post history, especially his threads blurting his absurd views on TvZ, he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed
Oh, and another couple of things about your map split strategy.
Try not to invest too much into static defense - it's why you ran out of resources first. Protoss defense is extremely cheap - it's just pylons, they dont even need cannons after they have warp-in HTs and 10+ gates.
1. Lots of unused PFs against HT/Carrier. Also way too many turrets that literally do nothing against 3-3 carriers. That shit builds up in cost, don't just spam static d or 20 starports with addons that eat up gas and 10 OCs everywhere, you have to be extremely cost efficient.
2. I think you have the mechanics for it, so try to use snipe with ghosts and immediately retreat.
3. Nukes aren't very effective in this scenario unless he has really clumped buildings, marauder drops on 2 fronts are probably better to take out gateways and tech.
4. Where were the blue flame hellion runbys you like so much? You did a couple of nexus snipes, but ended up losing so much bio just for 800 minerals that it set you behind in the efficiency race.
On January 31 2011 15:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The most important thing isn't unit compositions but pacing. Against any strategy that plays defensively and makes huge investments in tech, you have to either design an attack that breaks their defense before their tech fully pays off, or you have to expand aggressively early on to take advantage of their lack of offense. If you haven't designed an efficient way to do either of those things, or if your mechanics aren't good enough to execute those plans, then you're going to be playing from a significant disadvantage, which will skew your perspective on the strength of this Protoss strategy and composition (to make you think that it's stronger than it actually is).
...this is why they're implementing a feature to where you can skip to pro posts. This is exactly the approach you should take to dismantling this strategy...
You can EMP all the Templars you want, it only takes 2s for 6-7 more to "warp in" and take out everything, from storming Vikings/ Marines to feedback on the BCs.
Dude...that is 14 supply and 1200-1400 Gas to just "Warp in" that many Templar, in terms of army value that is a pretty big chunk of a late game army
Dude...14 supply and 1200-1400 is not a huge chunk of a late game army when the map is split. Not that you actually need 6-7 new HT, 3 or 4 can decimate a group of vikings/marines or completely nullify the YC on a fleet of BCs.
You should check his post history, especially his threads blurting his absurd views on TvZ, he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed
If that is the case, then there is a hole "swarm" that acted, and still does, in a very stupid and ego centric way. Besides, there are a lot of top level Terrans that feel TvZ is Z favored mid game foreword, unless you do critical dmg early game/ spawn on close positions . However, they choose not to vent on the forum. But this is of topic.
Anyway, the subject at hand came up in a lot of threds before, most common in TvP mech discussions.
Some of you forget one simple and very important rule of an RTS. It is not enough to have a "counter" to a unit/ combo/ strategy. The skill needed to attack, has to be enough to defend. If MVP or MKP can deal with a certain situation with insane micro, it does not mean that that is the solution for everyone.
On January 31 2011 15:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The most important thing isn't unit compositions but pacing. Against any strategy that plays defensively and makes huge investments in tech, you have to either design an attack that breaks their defense before their tech fully pays off, or you have to expand aggressively early on to take advantage of their lack of offense. If you haven't designed an efficient way to do either of those things, or if your mechanics aren't good enough to execute those plans, then you're going to be playing from a significant disadvantage, which will skew your perspective on the strength of this Protoss strategy and composition (to make you think that it's stronger than it actually is).
Yes, but on a lot of these blizzard maps like Xelnaga, Jungle, Steppes, etc. There's not a lot of bases. If protoss can secure 4 bases you're really not going to have much of an advantage if any. Now of course, we know those maps blow donkey balls. On the GSL maps it shouldn't be that bad.
The more I think about it, the more nukes appeal to me. Carriers are mad slow and even with HT warpin you can't really KILL ghosts that easily. Just send some marines/ghosts and nuke the poop out of it while sniping HT warpins. Perhaps easier said than done, but certainly worth looking into.
On January 31 2011 15:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The most important thing isn't unit compositions but pacing. Against any strategy that plays defensively and makes huge investments in tech, you have to either design an attack that breaks their defense before their tech fully pays off, or you have to expand aggressively early on to take advantage of their lack of offense. If you haven't designed an efficient way to do either of those things, or if your mechanics aren't good enough to execute those plans, then you're going to be playing from a significant disadvantage, which will skew your perspective on the strength of this Protoss strategy and composition (to make you think that it's stronger than it actually is).
Appreciate your input nony Given your point, I think that tanks are a mandatory opener to any sort of mech so that you can establish a defensive position and be safe while you are going full mech.
Does Yamato have a shorter range than feedback? It seemed like he could have gotten off two yamatos a piece on a few carriers, even wtihout the emps before hand to make the carrier force more manageable. Also spreading out vikings to avoid such punishing storms could help.
As for the Avilo hate, I haven't read any of his other posts, and this one seems like a fine post, but the attitude displayed in the replay itself does not fill me with trust in his ability to objectively analyze his own replays, particularly when he loses.
On February 01 2011 02:34 pandaburn wrote: Does Yamato have a shorter range than feedback? It seemed like he could have gotten off two yamatos a piece on a few carriers, even wtihout the emps before hand to make the carrier force more manageable. Also spreading out vikings to avoid such punishing storms could help.
As for the Avilo hate, I haven't read any of his other posts, and this one seems like a fine post, but the attitude displayed in the replay itself does not fill me with trust in his ability to objectively analyze his own replays, particularly when he loses.
10 Range ( Channeling, Mana isn't removed upon Cast, Mana can be drained, Mana is removed after shot ) vs 9 Range ( Instant )
He did spend a lot on the planetary fortresses though, at least 6 or so.
On February 01 2011 02:34 pandaburn wrote: Does Yamato have a shorter range than feedback? It seemed like he could have gotten off two yamatos a piece on a few carriers, even wtihout the emps before hand to make the carrier force more manageable. Also spreading out vikings to avoid such punishing storms could help.
As for the Avilo hate, I haven't read any of his other posts, and this one seems like a fine post, but the attitude displayed in the replay itself does not fill me with trust in his ability to objectively analyze his own replays, particularly when he loses.
10 Range ( Channeling, Mana isn't removed upon Cast, Mana can be drained, Mana is removed after shot ) vs 9 Range ( Instant )
He did spend a lot on the planetary fortresses though, at least 6 or so.
9 or 10 pf's actually.. 1 at 3rd, 2 at 4th, 3 at 5th, 1 at 6th and 2 or 3 clogging up the top hallway.. not to mention about 50 turrets.. and he says the protoss was turtling hard O_O
the thing about feed back and yamato is yamato is channeled and if the ht feedbacks the bc midcast the spell is canceled. This is the first time I've faced a 25+ bc composition lategame with this army so that was very educational when i discovered his yamatos weren't all hitting because i can see the cast bar and prioritize feedbacking them first
less PFs and more repair could have changed the outcome, apart from that, i think it was really close (esp the last big fight where P retreated to regain shield and restock army cuz he HAD some ressources)
the thing with feedback vs yamato is indeed interesting, but who could bear EMPing his own bcs
I actually don't see the problem here, what you did was perfectly fine, you simply weren't EMPing his HT very well. Any time there was a battle and you EMPed his army you won rather convincingly. The only reason you actually lost was that you spent all your money before he did, and I think that was because you spent far too much on turrets, planetary fortresses, etc. They weren't even necessary.
Of course he's going to be able to warp in HT to try and deal with your battlecruisers, but you could have EMPed his HT, came in to yamato and then backed off, or simply yamato'd and then continue the fight. A lot of times you were not EMPing, or you would attack his gold base and he would promptly EMP all your BC's and take off close to half their HP.
Regardless of any of that though, the game was lost not because of the carrier/templar, but because of a buildup of mistakes on your part. I think it would be far more beneficial for you to focus on those things than how to carrier/templar. What I mean is, correcting everything up to that point is more of a counter to carrier/templar than just discussing the best unit composition,
Avilo strikes again! Thank god this is happening. I've been singing about this kind of transition for AGES now and I've been waiting for someone actually good to popularize it. This, IMO is the correct way to play Protoss. If you ask me, this build SHOULD be very standard since it allows the better player to emerge on top. To handle this as Terran, the main thing to avoid this death-ball situation in my opinion is to scout. You essentially have free (Cue Terrans jumping on me about Scans costing 270 minerals) map info, and should be able to sense when he's doing that transition into carriers. The definite easy-mode counter for Carriers is to smell them and produce vikings. If he gets the jump on you in carrier production and +1 air attack, you're dead and probably should have scouted better. However, there's a lot that Terrans can do in the mean time. The best suggestion I can offer is to never be behind in expansions vs Protoss. Whether this amounts to denying him bases or keeping pace with him, you CAN'T allow Protoss to out-macro you. The sheer number of weapons that Terrans have at their disposal to deny thirds is awesome. Much of the Protoss ball relies on its ball-ishness to win battles. Forcing that ball to be in two places at once can get frustrating for Protoss players (Especially with the RAMPANT sickness that is 1-controlgroupsyndrome acquired from never playing Brood War) Cloaked banshees are always an option, especially once on 4 base and the cannons will not always cover every single spot. Poking holes in the Protoss defense is critical if you feel like you can't expand yourself.
On January 31 2011 23:10 zanmat0 wrote: You're quite the bitter loser lol. Next time you upload a replay, make sure not to embarass yourself with what you said in chat
It seems like 90% of the people who care enough to make a thread about a game were super worked up and raging during the actual game. Just my observation.
On January 31 2011 23:10 zanmat0 wrote: You're quite the bitter loser lol. Next time you upload a replay, make sure not to embarass yourself with what you said in chat
It seems like 90% of the people who care enough to make a thread about a game were super worked up and raging during the actual game. Just my observation.
Might be hypocritical, but it's still childish nonetheless.
On February 01 2011 06:05 travis wrote: I find viking/tank to be very difficult to stop with carriers. You can't storm vikings if your templars immediately die to tank fire.
yep it's all about positioning. I don't want to fight vikings straight up unless I can use templars and tanks shut that down and force zealots to draw fire. While carriers can break even cost effectively with vikings, once the T has enough vikings to kill a carrier in a volley or two, it becomes really costly to engage with carriers w/o templars
His macro starts dropping at some point early in the game while he's moving out, his reactor starports only have 2 units coming out while he could've added two more as his resources of 1000/400 allowed it. Given the simplifications of the game, he should easily be able to press all the barracks and starports to start producing units. The APM wasn't as high as expected, and the micro could've been better in the early game. The positioning definitely changed the outcome, as does preventing the templars from getting close enough to cast spells.
ok guys, no one plays perfect. I'm not asking for help on "how to macro better" aka pressing the A+D+V keys. I was asking for advice and input on what to do in this late game situation where the protoss has already established carrier+templars and warp-in defense.
What nony said about tempo and such is entirely true, but that does not mean that there's not a lot of protoss that simply play defensive until they reach this point. A lot of top P on ladder that i've seen do this strat...if you go for a planned timings as nony says, they sniff it out, and simply sit on 2 base collosus longer than they usually would so they shut down your timing attack, and then go into the templar/carrier + warp-in defense as described.
And the ones that don't sniff it out...you kill them lol. So it's a moot point.
I was just intending to ask for advice on what people think I should do in that late game situation, composition-wise, and to generate discussion about how to fight vs templar/carrier, as I said before, lots of people are under the impression that carriers are terrible and that is not the case.
Yes, there are a myriad of all-ins, and even non-all in timing attacks you can do versus protoss, but that's not what this thread is about. It's good to know that when a game does get to this scenario, there's some type of optimal go-to option...!
Also, as to why I build all the turrets/planetaries, every game that I haven't done that, the protoss will get up to maxed supply, suicide his army+storms, or do as much damage as possible, and with their resource bank they'll insta-warpin 20 gate worth of units to one side of the map and backstab to your last fresh expos, or back-stab to all your production.
So yes, it looks like it's horribly inefficient resource-wise...but losing your entire main base or fresh expos is even worse...
I was trying to block re-max backstabs, along with possible mothership recalls, which is a pretty huge threat, as well as warp prisms...without having to move my entire army to counter 1 of the threats.
On February 01 2011 06:05 travis wrote: I find viking/tank to be very difficult to stop with carriers. You can't storm vikings if your templars immediately die to tank fire.
Agreed. I've tried transitioning into carriers a few times recently and this is whats stopped me every time.
Hi, just played a strange game yesterday that ended up in this situation again - the protoss player dictates being able to attack, and the game ends up with them turtling carrier/templars, forcing Terran to turtle as well...this is what i'm talking bout folks:
On January 31 2011 09:44 rycho wrote: i watched the replay that you named "carriertemplarfaggot" and you sat around making only bcs and not attacking vs an army consisting of void rays and carriers and then complained a lot and called your opponent bad and apparently made a thread about it. i think its pretty clear who the faggot is.
On February 11 2011 23:13 avilo wrote: Hi, just played a strange game yesterday that ended up in this situation again - the protoss player dictates being able to attack, and the game ends up with them turtling carrier/templars, forcing Terran to turtle as well...this is what i'm talking bout folks:
I was expecting more of avilo's heavy turtle into mass BM build, and this game did not disappoint. Funny stuff. Don't think I've ever seen a game on Steppes run for that long.
On February 11 2011 23:13 avilo wrote: Hi, just played a strange game yesterday that ended up in this situation again - the protoss player dictates being able to attack, and the game ends up with them turtling carrier/templars, forcing Terran to turtle as well...this is what i'm talking bout folks:
I've been going dt before ht and been having quite a bit of success. (dt before fleet beacon) It slows down any terran push long enough for carriers to come out. (also can snipe ravens with carriers first so dt's can help) dt's also let you expand much earlier (take a 3rd and tech to ht). It's extremely gas heavy, but its also very gateway light which makes it possible to take early 3rd and 4th bases.
Once you get both dt/ht just expand like crazy, double air upgrades plus shield upgrades at forge and drop the terran to death with dt/ht. Eventually the terran attacks into carrier ht. (you can sack expansions in time to kill the ) or you hit critical mass and just start sniping expansions with 2-2-2 or 3-3-3 upgrades.