EPT
Discussion of carrier+templar late game tvp - Page 4
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zanmat0
188 Posts
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
[QUOTE]On January 31 2011 09:45 Zarahtra wrote: [QUOTE]On January 31 2011 09:47 Alejandrisha wrote: an avilo qq thread about me? i am honored! gg. i really should have been able to close it out on 3 bases but i forgot my hts.. i think after the fight at my nat you were a lititle behind so it's not the craziest thing in the world that I could outexpo in the mid late game[/QUOTE] Thread isn't about you. It's to discuss the turtle templar/carrier strategy. The thing with the game is, when you reach that point, I can't attack you cost efficiently as you'll just decimate my army with templar warp-ins. [/QUOTE] Feels Zergy to me :o! Well, 3/3 BC we're probably the best idea (using EMP/Yamato to keep the energy low), you lost on control, and remember to abuse your SCVs !! | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
Watching HuK's stream, he generally losses to this to a Thor/Tank/Viking(a lot of Viking)/Marine mix with constant Marauder drops. Marauders are pretty efficient vs Storm late game, they need multiple storms to be killed and spread the Templars accross the map, eventually, at least watching HuK's stream, he ends up dieing from running out of bases since Carriers are pretty darn inefficient, taking out a ton of interceptors REALLY eats into the minerals. The Terrans use Marauder drops to put Carriers in a bad position where they can be flanked by Marines and Vikings, in most cases it forces the Carriers to release their interceptors which get obliterated by the Marines then they retreat before Templar support You can EMP all the Templars you want, it only takes 2s for 6-7 more to "warp in" and take out everything, from storming Vikings/ Marines to feedback on the BCs. Dude...that is 14 supply and 1200-1400 Gas to just "Warp in" that many Templar, in terms of army value that is a pretty big chunk of a late game army PS: what is it with the Avilo hate? FFS You should check his post history, especially his threads blurting his absurd views on TvZ, he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
Try not to invest too much into static defense - it's why you ran out of resources first. Protoss defense is extremely cheap - it's just pylons, they dont even need cannons after they have warp-in HTs and 10+ gates. 1. Lots of unused PFs against HT/Carrier. Also way too many turrets that literally do nothing against 3-3 carriers. That shit builds up in cost, don't just spam static d or 20 starports with addons that eat up gas and 10 OCs everywhere, you have to be extremely cost efficient. 2. I think you have the mechanics for it, so try to use snipe with ghosts and immediately retreat. 3. Nukes aren't very effective in this scenario unless he has really clumped buildings, marauder drops on 2 fronts are probably better to take out gateways and tech. 4. Where were the blue flame hellion runbys you like so much? You did a couple of nexus snipes, but ended up losing so much bio just for 800 minerals that it set you behind in the efficiency race. | ||
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Shucks!
United States118 Posts
On January 31 2011 15:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The most important thing isn't unit compositions but pacing. Against any strategy that plays defensively and makes huge investments in tech, you have to either design an attack that breaks their defense before their tech fully pays off, or you have to expand aggressively early on to take advantage of their lack of offense. If you haven't designed an efficient way to do either of those things, or if your mechanics aren't good enough to execute those plans, then you're going to be playing from a significant disadvantage, which will skew your perspective on the strength of this Protoss strategy and composition (to make you think that it's stronger than it actually is). ...this is why they're implementing a feature to where you can skip to pro posts. This is exactly the approach you should take to dismantling this strategy... | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
[B] Dude...that is 14 supply and 1200-1400 Gas to just "Warp in" that many Templar, in terms of army value that is a pretty big chunk of a late game army Dude...14 supply and 1200-1400 is not a huge chunk of a late game army when the map is split. Not that you actually need 6-7 new HT, 3 or 4 can decimate a group of vikings/marines or completely nullify the YC on a fleet of BCs. [B] You should check his post history, especially his threads blurting his absurd views on TvZ, he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed If that is the case, then there is a hole "swarm" that acted, and still does, in a very stupid and ego centric way. Besides, there are a lot of top level Terrans that feel TvZ is Z favored mid game foreword, unless you do critical dmg early game/ spawn on close positions . However, they choose not to vent on the forum. But this is of topic. Anyway, the subject at hand came up in a lot of threds before, most common in TvP mech discussions. Some of you forget one simple and very important rule of an RTS. It is not enough to have a "counter" to a unit/ combo/ strategy. The skill needed to attack, has to be enough to defend. If MVP or MKP can deal with a certain situation with insane micro, it does not mean that that is the solution for everyone. | ||
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[Eternal]Phoenix
United States333 Posts
On January 31 2011 15:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The most important thing isn't unit compositions but pacing. Against any strategy that plays defensively and makes huge investments in tech, you have to either design an attack that breaks their defense before their tech fully pays off, or you have to expand aggressively early on to take advantage of their lack of offense. If you haven't designed an efficient way to do either of those things, or if your mechanics aren't good enough to execute those plans, then you're going to be playing from a significant disadvantage, which will skew your perspective on the strength of this Protoss strategy and composition (to make you think that it's stronger than it actually is). Yes, but on a lot of these blizzard maps like Xelnaga, Jungle, Steppes, etc. There's not a lot of bases. If protoss can secure 4 bases you're really not going to have much of an advantage if any. Now of course, we know those maps blow donkey balls. On the GSL maps it shouldn't be that bad. The more I think about it, the more nukes appeal to me. Carriers are mad slow and even with HT warpin you can't really KILL ghosts that easily. Just send some marines/ghosts and nuke the poop out of it while sniping HT warpins. Perhaps easier said than done, but certainly worth looking into. | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On January 31 2011 15:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The most important thing isn't unit compositions but pacing. Against any strategy that plays defensively and makes huge investments in tech, you have to either design an attack that breaks their defense before their tech fully pays off, or you have to expand aggressively early on to take advantage of their lack of offense. If you haven't designed an efficient way to do either of those things, or if your mechanics aren't good enough to execute those plans, then you're going to be playing from a significant disadvantage, which will skew your perspective on the strength of this Protoss strategy and composition (to make you think that it's stronger than it actually is). Appreciate your input nony Given your point, I think that tanks are a mandatory opener to any sort of mech so that you can establish a defensive position and be safe while you are going full mech. | ||
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pandaburn
United States89 Posts
As for the Avilo hate, I haven't read any of his other posts, and this one seems like a fine post, but the attitude displayed in the replay itself does not fill me with trust in his ability to objectively analyze his own replays, particularly when he loses. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
On February 01 2011 02:34 pandaburn wrote: Does Yamato have a shorter range than feedback? It seemed like he could have gotten off two yamatos a piece on a few carriers, even wtihout the emps before hand to make the carrier force more manageable. Also spreading out vikings to avoid such punishing storms could help. As for the Avilo hate, I haven't read any of his other posts, and this one seems like a fine post, but the attitude displayed in the replay itself does not fill me with trust in his ability to objectively analyze his own replays, particularly when he loses. 10 Range ( Channeling, Mana isn't removed upon Cast, Mana can be drained, Mana is removed after shot ) vs 9 Range ( Instant ) He did spend a lot on the planetary fortresses though, at least 6 or so. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On February 01 2011 02:40 nalgene wrote: 10 Range ( Channeling, Mana isn't removed upon Cast, Mana can be drained, Mana is removed after shot ) vs 9 Range ( Instant ) He did spend a lot on the planetary fortresses though, at least 6 or so. 9 or 10 pf's actually.. 1 at 3rd, 2 at 4th, 3 at 5th, 1 at 6th and 2 or 3 clogging up the top hallway.. not to mention about 50 turrets.. and he says the protoss was turtling hard O_O the thing about feed back and yamato is yamato is channeled and if the ht feedbacks the bc midcast the spell is canceled. This is the first time I've faced a 25+ bc composition lategame with this army so that was very educational when i discovered his yamatos weren't all hitting because i can see the cast bar and prioritize feedbacking them first | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
the thing with feedback vs yamato is indeed interesting, but who could bear EMPing his own bcs  | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
Of course he's going to be able to warp in HT to try and deal with your battlecruisers, but you could have EMPed his HT, came in to yamato and then backed off, or simply yamato'd and then continue the fight. A lot of times you were not EMPing, or you would attack his gold base and he would promptly EMP all your BC's and take off close to half their HP. Regardless of any of that though, the game was lost not because of the carrier/templar, but because of a buildup of mistakes on your part. I think it would be far more beneficial for you to focus on those things than how to carrier/templar. What I mean is, correcting everything up to that point is more of a counter to carrier/templar than just discussing the best unit composition, P.S: your attitude is awful. | ||
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Farkinator
United States283 Posts
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Brandus
148 Posts
On January 31 2011 23:10 zanmat0 wrote: You're quite the bitter loser lol. Next time you upload a replay, make sure not to embarass yourself with what you said in chat It seems like 90% of the people who care enough to make a thread about a game were super worked up and raging during the actual game. Just my observation. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On February 01 2011 05:42 Brandus wrote: It seems like 90% of the people who care enough to make a thread about a game were super worked up and raging during the actual game. Just my observation. Might be hypocritical, but it's still childish nonetheless. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On February 01 2011 06:05 travis wrote: I find viking/tank to be very difficult to stop with carriers. You can't storm vikings if your templars immediately die to tank fire. yep it's all about positioning. I don't want to fight vikings straight up unless I can use templars and tanks shut that down and force zealots to draw fire. While carriers can break even cost effectively with vikings, once the T has enough vikings to kill a carrier in a volley or two, it becomes really costly to engage with carriers w/o templars | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
What nony said about tempo and such is entirely true, but that does not mean that there's not a lot of protoss that simply play defensive until they reach this point. A lot of top P on ladder that i've seen do this strat...if you go for a planned timings as nony says, they sniff it out, and simply sit on 2 base collosus longer than they usually would so they shut down your timing attack, and then go into the templar/carrier + warp-in defense as described. And the ones that don't sniff it out...you kill them lol. So it's a moot point. I was just intending to ask for advice on what people think I should do in that late game situation, composition-wise, and to generate discussion about how to fight vs templar/carrier, as I said before, lots of people are under the impression that carriers are terrible and that is not the case. Yes, there are a myriad of all-ins, and even non-all in timing attacks you can do versus protoss, but that's not what this thread is about. It's good to know that when a game does get to this scenario, there's some type of optimal go-to option...! Also, as to why I build all the turrets/planetaries, every game that I haven't done that, the protoss will get up to maxed supply, suicide his army+storms, or do as much damage as possible, and with their resource bank they'll insta-warpin 20 gate worth of units to one side of the map and backstab to your last fresh expos, or back-stab to all your production. So yes, it looks like it's horribly inefficient resource-wise...but losing your entire main base or fresh expos is even worse... I was trying to block re-max backstabs, along with possible mothership recalls, which is a pretty huge threat, as well as warp prisms...without having to move my entire army to counter 1 of the threats. | ||
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