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Discussion of carrier+templar late game tvp - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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zanmat0
Profile Joined December 2010
188 Posts
January 31 2011 14:10 GMT
#61
You're quite the bitter loser lol. Next time you upload a replay, make sure not to embarass yourself with what you said in chat
ToastieNL
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands845 Posts
January 31 2011 14:10 GMT
#62
[QUOTE]On January 31 2011 09:56 avilo wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 31 2011 09:45 Zarahtra wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 31 2011 09:47 Alejandrisha wrote:
an avilo qq thread about me? i am honored! gg. i really should have been able to close it out on 3 bases but i forgot my hts.. i think after the fight at my nat you were a lititle behind so it's not the craziest thing in the world that I could outexpo in the mid late game[/QUOTE]

Thread isn't about you. It's to discuss the turtle templar/carrier strategy. The thing with the game is, when you reach that point, I can't attack you cost efficiently as you'll just decimate my army with templar warp-ins.
[/QUOTE]
Feels Zergy to me :o!

Well, 3/3 BC we're probably the best idea (using EMP/Yamato to keep the energy low), you lost on control, and remember to abuse your SCVs !!
Zerg lategame is imbalanced as shit. Also: "Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA. Even MMA asks for buffs. Srsly Blizzard. Srsly.
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-31 14:53:56
January 31 2011 14:42 GMT
#63
Just get a shit ton of Viking backed up by Thor/Tank. Vikings are so goddamn cost efficient, once you get enough of them they can one shot a Carrier and run away before getting hit by any Interceptors. With the removal of Voidray Speed Vikings can also kite Voidrays now.

Watching HuK's stream, he generally losses to this to a Thor/Tank/Viking(a lot of Viking)/Marine mix with constant Marauder drops. Marauders are pretty efficient vs Storm late game, they need multiple storms to be killed and spread the Templars accross the map, eventually, at least watching HuK's stream, he ends up dieing from running out of bases since Carriers are pretty darn inefficient, taking out a ton of interceptors REALLY eats into the minerals. The Terrans use Marauder drops to put Carriers in a bad position where they can be flanked by Marines and Vikings, in most cases it forces the Carriers to release their interceptors which get obliterated by the Marines then they retreat before Templar support

You can EMP all the Templars you want, it only takes 2s for 6-7 more to "warp in" and take out everything, from storming Vikings/ Marines to feedback on the BCs.


Dude...that is 14 supply and 1200-1400 Gas to just "Warp in" that many Templar, in terms of army value that is a pretty big chunk of a late game army

PS: what is it with the Avilo hate? FFS


You should check his post history, especially his threads blurting his absurd views on TvZ, he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
January 31 2011 14:56 GMT
#64
Oh, and another couple of things about your map split strategy.

Try not to invest too much into static defense - it's why you ran out of resources first. Protoss defense is extremely cheap - it's just pylons, they dont even need cannons after they have warp-in HTs and 10+ gates.

1. Lots of unused PFs against HT/Carrier. Also way too many turrets that literally do nothing against 3-3 carriers. That shit builds up in cost, don't just spam static d or 20 starports with addons that eat up gas and 10 OCs everywhere, you have to be extremely cost efficient.

2. I think you have the mechanics for it, so try to use snipe with ghosts and immediately retreat.

3. Nukes aren't very effective in this scenario unless he has really clumped buildings, marauder drops on 2 fronts are probably better to take out gateways and tech.

4. Where were the blue flame hellion runbys you like so much? You did a couple of nexus snipes, but ended up losing so much bio just for 800 minerals that it set you behind in the efficiency race.
Shucks!
Profile Joined November 2010
United States118 Posts
January 31 2011 15:38 GMT
#65
On January 31 2011 15:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
The most important thing isn't unit compositions but pacing. Against any strategy that plays defensively and makes huge investments in tech, you have to either design an attack that breaks their defense before their tech fully pays off, or you have to expand aggressively early on to take advantage of their lack of offense. If you haven't designed an efficient way to do either of those things, or if your mechanics aren't good enough to execute those plans, then you're going to be playing from a significant disadvantage, which will skew your perspective on the strength of this Protoss strategy and composition (to make you think that it's stronger than it actually is).



...this is why they're implementing a feature to where you can skip to pro posts. This is exactly the approach you should take to dismantling this strategy...
"Do not look into the eyes of a horse, for the void there will swallow your soul" - LiquidTyler on SotG 12.14.10
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
January 31 2011 15:38 GMT
#66
[B]

Show nested quote +
You can EMP all the Templars you want, it only takes 2s for 6-7 more to "warp in" and take out everything, from storming Vikings/ Marines to feedback on the BCs.


Dude...that is 14 supply and 1200-1400 Gas to just "Warp in" that many Templar, in terms of army value that is a pretty big chunk of a late game army


Dude...14 supply and 1200-1400 is not a huge chunk of a late game army when the map is split. Not that you actually need 6-7 new HT, 3 or 4 can decimate a group of vikings/marines or completely nullify the YC on a fleet of BCs.

[B]
Show nested quote +
PS: what is it with the Avilo hate? FFS


You should check his post history, especially his threads blurting his absurd views on TvZ, he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed


If that is the case, then there is a hole "swarm" that acted, and still does, in a very stupid and ego centric way. Besides, there are a lot of top level Terrans that feel TvZ is Z favored mid game foreword, unless you do critical dmg early game/ spawn on close positions . However, they choose not to vent on the forum. But this is of topic.

Anyway, the subject at hand came up in a lot of threds before, most common in TvP mech discussions.

Some of you forget one simple and very important rule of an RTS. It is not enough to have a "counter" to a unit/ combo/ strategy. The skill needed to attack, has to be enough to defend. If MVP or MKP can deal with a certain situation with insane micro, it does not mean that that is the solution for everyone.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
[Eternal]Phoenix
Profile Joined December 2010
United States333 Posts
January 31 2011 15:45 GMT
#67
On January 31 2011 15:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
The most important thing isn't unit compositions but pacing. Against any strategy that plays defensively and makes huge investments in tech, you have to either design an attack that breaks their defense before their tech fully pays off, or you have to expand aggressively early on to take advantage of their lack of offense. If you haven't designed an efficient way to do either of those things, or if your mechanics aren't good enough to execute those plans, then you're going to be playing from a significant disadvantage, which will skew your perspective on the strength of this Protoss strategy and composition (to make you think that it's stronger than it actually is).


Yes, but on a lot of these blizzard maps like Xelnaga, Jungle, Steppes, etc. There's not a lot of bases. If protoss can secure 4 bases you're really not going to have much of an advantage if any. Now of course, we know those maps blow donkey balls. On the GSL maps it shouldn't be that bad.

The more I think about it, the more nukes appeal to me. Carriers are mad slow and even with HT warpin you can't really KILL ghosts that easily. Just send some marines/ghosts and nuke the poop out of it while sniping HT warpins. Perhaps easier said than done, but certainly worth looking into.
'environmental legislation is like cutting scvs to stop an imaginary allin that is never going to come, while your opponent ecos and expands continually'
infinity21 *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada6683 Posts
January 31 2011 15:46 GMT
#68
On January 31 2011 15:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
The most important thing isn't unit compositions but pacing. Against any strategy that plays defensively and makes huge investments in tech, you have to either design an attack that breaks their defense before their tech fully pays off, or you have to expand aggressively early on to take advantage of their lack of offense. If you haven't designed an efficient way to do either of those things, or if your mechanics aren't good enough to execute those plans, then you're going to be playing from a significant disadvantage, which will skew your perspective on the strength of this Protoss strategy and composition (to make you think that it's stronger than it actually is).

Appreciate your input nony
Given your point, I think that tanks are a mandatory opener to any sort of mech so that you can establish a defensive position and be safe while you are going full mech.
Official Entusman #21
pandaburn
Profile Joined November 2010
United States89 Posts
January 31 2011 17:34 GMT
#69
Does Yamato have a shorter range than feedback? It seemed like he could have gotten off two yamatos a piece on a few carriers, even wtihout the emps before hand to make the carrier force more manageable. Also spreading out vikings to avoid such punishing storms could help.

As for the Avilo hate, I haven't read any of his other posts, and this one seems like a fine post, but the attitude displayed in the replay itself does not fill me with trust in his ability to objectively analyze his own replays, particularly when he loses.
nalgene
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada2153 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-31 17:41:18
January 31 2011 17:40 GMT
#70
On February 01 2011 02:34 pandaburn wrote:
Does Yamato have a shorter range than feedback? It seemed like he could have gotten off two yamatos a piece on a few carriers, even wtihout the emps before hand to make the carrier force more manageable. Also spreading out vikings to avoid such punishing storms could help.

As for the Avilo hate, I haven't read any of his other posts, and this one seems like a fine post, but the attitude displayed in the replay itself does not fill me with trust in his ability to objectively analyze his own replays, particularly when he loses.


10 Range ( Channeling, Mana isn't removed upon Cast, Mana can be drained, Mana is removed after shot ) vs 9 Range ( Instant )

He did spend a lot on the planetary fortresses though, at least 6 or so.
Year 2500 Greater Israel ( Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Yemen )
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
January 31 2011 18:03 GMT
#71
On February 01 2011 02:40 nalgene wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2011 02:34 pandaburn wrote:
Does Yamato have a shorter range than feedback? It seemed like he could have gotten off two yamatos a piece on a few carriers, even wtihout the emps before hand to make the carrier force more manageable. Also spreading out vikings to avoid such punishing storms could help.

As for the Avilo hate, I haven't read any of his other posts, and this one seems like a fine post, but the attitude displayed in the replay itself does not fill me with trust in his ability to objectively analyze his own replays, particularly when he loses.


10 Range ( Channeling, Mana isn't removed upon Cast, Mana can be drained, Mana is removed after shot ) vs 9 Range ( Instant )

He did spend a lot on the planetary fortresses though, at least 6 or so.


9 or 10 pf's actually.. 1 at 3rd, 2 at 4th, 3 at 5th, 1 at 6th and 2 or 3 clogging up the top hallway.. not to mention about 50 turrets.. and he says the protoss was turtling hard O_O

the thing about feed back and yamato is yamato is channeled and if the ht feedbacks the bc midcast the spell is canceled. This is the first time I've faced a 25+ bc composition lategame with this army so that was very educational when i discovered his yamatos weren't all hitting because i can see the cast bar and prioritize feedbacking them first
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
Naphal
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany2099 Posts
January 31 2011 19:28 GMT
#72
less PFs and more repair could have changed the outcome, apart from that, i think it was really close (esp the last big fight where P retreated to regain shield and restock army cuz he HAD some ressources)

the thing with feedback vs yamato is indeed interesting, but who could bear EMPing his own bcs
Salv
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada3083 Posts
January 31 2011 19:35 GMT
#73
I actually don't see the problem here, what you did was perfectly fine, you simply weren't EMPing his HT very well. Any time there was a battle and you EMPed his army you won rather convincingly. The only reason you actually lost was that you spent all your money before he did, and I think that was because you spent far too much on turrets, planetary fortresses, etc. They weren't even necessary.

Of course he's going to be able to warp in HT to try and deal with your battlecruisers, but you could have EMPed his HT, came in to yamato and then backed off, or simply yamato'd and then continue the fight. A lot of times you were not EMPing, or you would attack his gold base and he would promptly EMP all your BC's and take off close to half their HP.

Regardless of any of that though, the game was lost not because of the carrier/templar, but because of a buildup of mistakes on your part. I think it would be far more beneficial for you to focus on those things than how to carrier/templar. What I mean is, correcting everything up to that point is more of a counter to carrier/templar than just discussing the best unit composition,

P.S: your attitude is awful.
Farkinator
Profile Joined August 2010
United States283 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-31 20:27:39
January 31 2011 20:26 GMT
#74
Avilo strikes again! Thank god this is happening. I've been singing about this kind of transition for AGES now and I've been waiting for someone actually good to popularize it. This, IMO is the correct way to play Protoss. If you ask me, this build SHOULD be very standard since it allows the better player to emerge on top. To handle this as Terran, the main thing to avoid this death-ball situation in my opinion is to scout. You essentially have free (Cue Terrans jumping on me about Scans costing 270 minerals) map info, and should be able to sense when he's doing that transition into carriers. The definite easy-mode counter for Carriers is to smell them and produce vikings. If he gets the jump on you in carrier production and +1 air attack, you're dead and probably should have scouted better. However, there's a lot that Terrans can do in the mean time. The best suggestion I can offer is to never be behind in expansions vs Protoss. Whether this amounts to denying him bases or keeping pace with him, you CAN'T allow Protoss to out-macro you. The sheer number of weapons that Terrans have at their disposal to deny thirds is awesome. Much of the Protoss ball relies on its ball-ishness to win battles. Forcing that ball to be in two places at once can get frustrating for Protoss players (Especially with the RAMPANT sickness that is 1-controlgroupsyndrome acquired from never playing Brood War) Cloaked banshees are always an option, especially once on 4 base and the cannons will not always cover every single spot. Poking holes in the Protoss defense is critical if you feel like you can't expand yourself.
Get some bases, smash some faces.
Brandus
Profile Joined September 2010
148 Posts
January 31 2011 20:42 GMT
#75
On January 31 2011 23:10 zanmat0 wrote:
You're quite the bitter loser lol. Next time you upload a replay, make sure not to embarass yourself with what you said in chat


It seems like 90% of the people who care enough to make a thread about a game were super worked up and raging during the actual game. Just my observation.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
January 31 2011 21:05 GMT
#76
I find viking/tank to be very difficult to stop with carriers. You can't storm vikings if your templars immediately die to tank fire.
Salv
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada3083 Posts
January 31 2011 21:07 GMT
#77
On February 01 2011 05:42 Brandus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 31 2011 23:10 zanmat0 wrote:
You're quite the bitter loser lol. Next time you upload a replay, make sure not to embarass yourself with what you said in chat


It seems like 90% of the people who care enough to make a thread about a game were super worked up and raging during the actual game. Just my observation.


Might be hypocritical, but it's still childish nonetheless.
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
January 31 2011 21:11 GMT
#78
On February 01 2011 06:05 travis wrote:
I find viking/tank to be very difficult to stop with carriers. You can't storm vikings if your templars immediately die to tank fire.


yep it's all about positioning. I don't want to fight vikings straight up unless I can use templars and tanks shut that down and force zealots to draw fire. While carriers can break even cost effectively with vikings, once the T has enough vikings to kill a carrier in a volley or two, it becomes really costly to engage with carriers w/o templars
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
nalgene
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada2153 Posts
January 31 2011 21:18 GMT
#79
His macro starts dropping at some point early in the game while he's moving out, his reactor starports only have 2 units coming out while he could've added two more as his resources of 1000/400 allowed it. Given the simplifications of the game, he should easily be able to press all the barracks and starports to start producing units. The APM wasn't as high as expected, and the micro could've been better in the early game. The positioning definitely changed the outcome, as does preventing the templars from getting close enough to cast spells.
Year 2500 Greater Israel ( Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Yemen )
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-01 00:31:08
February 01 2011 00:27 GMT
#80
ok guys, no one plays perfect. I'm not asking for help on "how to macro better" aka pressing the A+D+V keys. I was asking for advice and input on what to do in this late game situation where the protoss has already established carrier+templars and warp-in defense.

What nony said about tempo and such is entirely true, but that does not mean that there's not a lot of protoss that simply play defensive until they reach this point. A lot of top P on ladder that i've seen do this strat...if you go for a planned timings as nony says, they sniff it out, and simply sit on 2 base collosus longer than they usually would so they shut down your timing attack, and then go into the templar/carrier + warp-in defense as described.

And the ones that don't sniff it out...you kill them lol. So it's a moot point.

I was just intending to ask for advice on what people think I should do in that late game situation, composition-wise, and to generate discussion about how to fight vs templar/carrier, as I said before, lots of people are under the impression that carriers are terrible and that is not the case.

Yes, there are a myriad of all-ins, and even non-all in timing attacks you can do versus protoss, but that's not what this thread is about. It's good to know that when a game does get to this scenario, there's some type of optimal go-to option...!

Also, as to why I build all the turrets/planetaries, every game that I haven't done that, the protoss will get up to maxed supply, suicide his army+storms, or do as much damage as possible, and with their resource bank they'll insta-warpin 20 gate worth of units to one side of the map and backstab to your last fresh expos, or back-stab to all your production.

So yes, it looks like it's horribly inefficient resource-wise...but losing your entire main base or fresh expos is even worse...

I was trying to block re-max backstabs, along with possible mothership recalls, which is a pretty huge threat, as well as warp prisms...without having to move my entire army to counter 1 of the threats.
Sup
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