|
This is the hardest combo to play against. Possibly even imbalanced 
You will basically need everything -
Ghosts to emp HT/carrier ball/mothership
Enough Vikings to do enough spike damage to actually kill carrier in a single volley
Thors to soak up the damage from storms that do hit and carriers and possibly any gateway units.
The problem is that it's so fucking expensive, so you have to be a base up going into lategame to actually get that unit combination. Also since you're getting both air and mech and infantry, you can't possibly have upgrades for ALL of them.
Reducing ghost cost might help this combination to actually get more vikings out. I'm not sure.
Okay, so the problem is this basically. In broodwar, when u upgraded HT energy, they started out with 62 energy - not enough to storm. Also, it took time for them to build. Because you can warp in HTs, you basically get the unit NOW and then wait out the cooldown, which actually lets you stack up way more energy.
Say you start an HT at 9:55 in SC2. It finishes in 5 seconds at 10:00 and has 75 energy. In BW it would finish at 10:45 and have 62 energy. By 10:45, the SC2 templar would actually have more than 100 energy. Not only is this a 40 energy buff essentially, but you get that HT anywhere on the map for just 100 extra minerals, which is also incidentally the difference in cost between HT and ghost.
|
yeah its a tough combo to fight against. bc's can work... I dont really know what else tbh other than getting lucky emps somehow on temps so you dont get feedbacked or stormed to hell.
in this specific rep avilo doesn't fight very cost effective leading up to the end game battle, he actually wins the first end game fight but he has 100 minerals vs 12000 banked by protoss. some of this could have been like 4000-5000+ spent on command centers/planetarys/oc's, protoss is able to be way more cost effective going into the end game.
|
One thing I noticed in your major fleet battle, was a dozen+ yamato blasts going off. However, they didn't seem to score many kills. Why?
I was curious, so I tested this out. One Yamato won't kill a Carrier (duh). But two EMPs and one Yamato will. Yamato blast is not reduced by armor, so it deals the exact 300 damage needed to break an unshielded Carrier. If you had known this, you would likely have come out with a sweeping victory.
Next time try EMP+EMP, then Yamato the hell out of everything. Fear not, Yamato Cannon can not target Interceptors (I tested that too, just in case).
|
On January 31 2011 10:25 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 10:06 QQmonster wrote:
I don't understand the argument you made for why mech dies to high templar carriers.
QUOTE:
Mech works in the sense that you're less vulnerable to templars, but it does not work in the sense that you can never attack protoss if you go heavy tank mech and they turtle into carriers...as over half your army will be tanks/hellions and you'll suddenly have to do a massive tech switch to the only available counter carrier measure - mass vikings, which also is countered by templars and vortex. END QUOTE
If they go for templars first, you should have more than enough time to get your siege push going.
If they go for carriers first, just make vikings and then push either while the carrier numbers are low, or some time before the high templar have storm/amulet?
If it gets to the scenario where they have storm and carriers without dying to a push yet, just start producing thors and vikings and turret up your push and sit on your current tank numbers? Obviously you constantly try to snipe HT with hellions.
It's really important to scout the carrier switch in advance and have a stockpile of vikings to meet the first couple of carriers that pop out. Other than that, I think an important thing to remember when dealing with carriers as mech is it's okay to unsiege and run away from your hard earned push with your tail between your legs in order to have more time to get vikings out if the carriers suprise you or overpower you, so that the tanks stay alive.
I find most tosses just don't have the army to stop a push when they tech to carriers, and since you'll have task force of vikings out ahead of time, the carriers wont be enough to defend the push and you just put the nail in their coffin with constant reinforcement/siege push.
If P transitions from colo to ht to carrier, it's pretty darn safe and there isn't a real timing window to attack as terran. If P skips ht for carriers, then it's definitely beatable as rine/thor/viking will beat that pretty hard.
Huh? Transitioning from collosus into carriers is among the worst things a protoss user could do... The terran will already have a bunch of vikings out and will just straight up roll the toss as soon as his carriers pop out.
|
On January 31 2011 10:33 bobucles wrote:
One thing I noticed in your major fleet battle, was a dozen+ yamato blasts going off. However, they didn't seem to score many kills. Why?
I was curious, so I tested this out. One Yamato won't kill a Carrier (duh). But two EMPs and one Yamato will. Yamato blast is not reduced by armor, so it deals the exact 300 damage needed to break an unshielded Carrier. If you had known this, you would likely have come out with a sweeping victory.
Next time try EMP+EMP, then Yamato the hell out of everything. Fear not, Yamato Cannon can not target Interceptors (I tested that too, just in case).
That is good to know, I will remember that for next time I get in a scenario like this. I was really trying to snipe the templars/emp them, but didn't think about just pure emp on the carriers.
|
The Protoss had 12 cannons at 40 mins spread over 4 bases. This is apparently mass cannon turtling with khaydarin as you say?
You sat on an FE that was pretty much impossible to break since bunkers are free. Do you feel good getting 500 minerals back instantly after they were used to make your FE pretty much invulnerable?
You said the Protoss didn't deserve to win. You had the same amount of bases, played one game vs carriers up till that point I guess and somehow came to the conclusion that it was the most abusive strat ever. I'm sure anyone could randomly pick 10 of your replays and most of them would include some sort of scv pull attacks off 1 or 2 base. SCV threat/priority before the patch was not even the most abusive thing in sc2 but way more abusive than some ' mass cannon templar turtle into carrier ' strat that you seem to claim. How many times have you played vs carrier in your entire time playing sc2. Ask any protoss player how many times they played vs scv pull.
You were the first to expand, and the only reason you were slightly behind on your third vs him was because you forgot to macro during your attack on his natural. He's ' always ahead in bases mid-game ' because you forgot to macro.
At one point you had 8 starports making bcs vs his 4 stargates making carriers. Hmmm maybe BCs aren't the counter to carriers? Nah, let's make a TL thread.
The reason the Protoss doesn't commit to an attack was because he doesn't split his templars and they pretty much got EMP'd every time. The first attack he tried with templars they were lagging way behind. There's no reason for him to commit. If he split his templars/avoided emp better I'm sure there would have been more attacks.
You use incredible hyperbole to make it seem like the strats you lose to are unbeatable and have an excuse for every possible situation without actually playing them out in game. Then you tag on a ' discuss ' sentence to make it seem like you aren't crying imba.
On January 31 2011 09:44 rycho wrote:
i watched the replay that you named "carriertemplarfaggot" and you sat around making only bcs and not attacking vs an army consisting of void rays and carriers and then complained a lot and called your opponent bad and apparently made a thread about it. i think its pretty clear who the faggot is.
^ pretty much sums up the end of the game.
You whine a lot.
User was warned for this post
|
On January 31 2011 10:35 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 10:25 infinity21 wrote:On January 31 2011 10:06 QQmonster wrote:
I don't understand the argument you made for why mech dies to high templar carriers.
QUOTE:
Mech works in the sense that you're less vulnerable to templars, but it does not work in the sense that you can never attack protoss if you go heavy tank mech and they turtle into carriers...as over half your army will be tanks/hellions and you'll suddenly have to do a massive tech switch to the only available counter carrier measure - mass vikings, which also is countered by templars and vortex. END QUOTE
If they go for templars first, you should have more than enough time to get your siege push going.
If they go for carriers first, just make vikings and then push either while the carrier numbers are low, or some time before the high templar have storm/amulet?
If it gets to the scenario where they have storm and carriers without dying to a push yet, just start producing thors and vikings and turret up your push and sit on your current tank numbers? Obviously you constantly try to snipe HT with hellions.
It's really important to scout the carrier switch in advance and have a stockpile of vikings to meet the first couple of carriers that pop out. Other than that, I think an important thing to remember when dealing with carriers as mech is it's okay to unsiege and run away from your hard earned push with your tail between your legs in order to have more time to get vikings out if the carriers suprise you or overpower you, so that the tanks stay alive.
I find most tosses just don't have the army to stop a push when they tech to carriers, and since you'll have task force of vikings out ahead of time, the carriers wont be enough to defend the push and you just put the nail in their coffin with constant reinforcement/siege push.
If P transitions from colo to ht to carrier, it's pretty darn safe and there isn't a real timing window to attack as terran. If P skips ht for carriers, then it's definitely beatable as rine/thor/viking will beat that pretty hard. Huh? Transitioning from collosus into carriers is among the worst things a protoss user could do... The terran will already have a bunch of vikings out and will just straight up roll the toss as soon as his carriers pop out.
He didn't say collosus into carriers...he said collosus into HT into carriers...basically what this thread is about...
|
On January 31 2011 10:35 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 10:25 infinity21 wrote:On January 31 2011 10:06 QQmonster wrote:
I don't understand the argument you made for why mech dies to high templar carriers.
QUOTE:
Mech works in the sense that you're less vulnerable to templars, but it does not work in the sense that you can never attack protoss if you go heavy tank mech and they turtle into carriers...as over half your army will be tanks/hellions and you'll suddenly have to do a massive tech switch to the only available counter carrier measure - mass vikings, which also is countered by templars and vortex. END QUOTE
If they go for templars first, you should have more than enough time to get your siege push going.
If they go for carriers first, just make vikings and then push either while the carrier numbers are low, or some time before the high templar have storm/amulet?
If it gets to the scenario where they have storm and carriers without dying to a push yet, just start producing thors and vikings and turret up your push and sit on your current tank numbers? Obviously you constantly try to snipe HT with hellions.
It's really important to scout the carrier switch in advance and have a stockpile of vikings to meet the first couple of carriers that pop out. Other than that, I think an important thing to remember when dealing with carriers as mech is it's okay to unsiege and run away from your hard earned push with your tail between your legs in order to have more time to get vikings out if the carriers suprise you or overpower you, so that the tanks stay alive.
I find most tosses just don't have the army to stop a push when they tech to carriers, and since you'll have task force of vikings out ahead of time, the carriers wont be enough to defend the push and you just put the nail in their coffin with constant reinforcement/siege push.
If P transitions from colo to ht to carrier, it's pretty darn safe and there isn't a real timing window to attack as terran. If P skips ht for carriers, then it's definitely beatable as rine/thor/viking will beat that pretty hard. Huh? Transitioning from collosus into carriers is among the worst things a protoss user could do... The terran will already have a bunch of vikings out and will just straight up roll the toss as soon as his carriers pop out.
I'm pretty sure you need to reread what he said. "If P transitions from colo to ht to carrier, it's pretty darn safe.."
|
On January 31 2011 10:37 Ack1027 wrote:The Protoss had 12 cannons at 40 mins spread over 4 bases. This is apparently mass cannon turtling with khaydarin as you say? You sat on an FE that was pretty much impossible to break since bunkers are free. Do you feel good getting 500 minerals back instantly after they were used to make your FE pretty much invulnerable? You said the Protoss didn't deserve to win. You had the same amount of bases, played one game vs carriers up till that point I guess and somehow came to the conclusion that it was the most abusive strat ever. I'm sure anyone could randomly pick 10 of your replays and most of them would include some sort of scv pull attacks off 1 or 2 base. SCV threat/priority before the patch was not even the most abusive thing in sc2 but way more abusive than some ' mass cannon templar turtle into carrier ' strat that you seem to claim. How many times have you played vs carrier in your entire time playing sc2. Ask any protoss player how many times they played vs scv pull. You were the first to expand, and the only reason you were slightly behind on your third vs him was because you forgot to macro during your attack on his natural. He's ' always ahead in bases mid-game ' because you forgot to macro. At one point you had 8 starports making bcs vs his 4 stargates making carriers. Hmmm maybe BCs aren't the counter to carriers? Nah, let's make a TL thread. The reason the Protoss doesn't commit to an attack was because he doesn't split his templars and they pretty much got EMP'd every time. The first attack he tried with templars they were lagging way behind. There's no reason for him to commit. If he split his templars/avoided emp better I'm sure there would have been more attacks. You use incredible hyperbole to make it seem like the strats you lose to are unbeatable and have an excuse for every possible situation without actually playing them out in game. Then you tag on a ' discuss ' sentence to make it seem like you aren't crying imba. Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 09:44 rycho wrote:
i watched the replay that you named "carriertemplarfaggot" and you sat around making only bcs and not attacking vs an army consisting of void rays and carriers and then complained a lot and called your opponent bad and apparently made a thread about it. i think its pretty clear who the faggot is. ^ pretty much sums up the end of the game. You whine a lot.
You whine in your second paragraph more than you claim I did in my OP. I was not whining at all in the OP, I was asking for advice and wanted to generated discussion on how to beat this as it's very strong.
And as mentioned, mass bio does not beat carriers, let alone templars, unless you hit clutch EMPs. Mech doesn't beat carriers either...that's why I chose bio into BCS.
Also, if you knew my play style you'd know I rarely ever pull mass scvs for allins tvp. I'm actually one of the turtliest players/defensive ones there is...but that's not the point. Getting to the late game 200 vs 200 situation vs carrier/templar is what this is about.
|
On January 31 2011 10:39 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 10:37 Ack1027 wrote:The Protoss had 12 cannons at 40 mins spread over 4 bases. This is apparently mass cannon turtling with khaydarin as you say? You sat on an FE that was pretty much impossible to break since bunkers are free. Do you feel good getting 500 minerals back instantly after they were used to make your FE pretty much invulnerable? You said the Protoss didn't deserve to win. You had the same amount of bases, played one game vs carriers up till that point I guess and somehow came to the conclusion that it was the most abusive strat ever. I'm sure anyone could randomly pick 10 of your replays and most of them would include some sort of scv pull attacks off 1 or 2 base. SCV threat/priority before the patch was not even the most abusive thing in sc2 but way more abusive than some ' mass cannon templar turtle into carrier ' strat that you seem to claim. How many times have you played vs carrier in your entire time playing sc2. Ask any protoss player how many times they played vs scv pull. You were the first to expand, and the only reason you were slightly behind on your third vs him was because you forgot to macro during your attack on his natural. He's ' always ahead in bases mid-game ' because you forgot to macro. At one point you had 8 starports making bcs vs his 4 stargates making carriers. Hmmm maybe BCs aren't the counter to carriers? Nah, let's make a TL thread. The reason the Protoss doesn't commit to an attack was because he doesn't split his templars and they pretty much got EMP'd every time. The first attack he tried with templars they were lagging way behind. There's no reason for him to commit. If he split his templars/avoided emp better I'm sure there would have been more attacks. You use incredible hyperbole to make it seem like the strats you lose to are unbeatable and have an excuse for every possible situation without actually playing them out in game. Then you tag on a ' discuss ' sentence to make it seem like you aren't crying imba. On January 31 2011 09:44 rycho wrote:
i watched the replay that you named "carriertemplarfaggot" and you sat around making only bcs and not attacking vs an army consisting of void rays and carriers and then complained a lot and called your opponent bad and apparently made a thread about it. i think its pretty clear who the faggot is. ^ pretty much sums up the end of the game. You whine a lot. You whine in your second paragraph more than you claim I did in my OP. I was not whining at all in the OP, I was asking for advice and wanted to generated discussion on how to beat this as it's very strong. And as mentioned, mass bio does not beat carriers, let alone templars, unless you hit clutch EMPs. Mech doesn't beat carriers either...that's why I chose bio into BCS.
Could you give a couple replays of you playing mech and dying to carriers? I want to see what you're basing this statement on.
|
Watched the replay and it looked like a standard tvp to me. I think earlier on there was a timing window where you had your natural up a decent amount of time (4-5 min?) before he did? You could have tried to use that window to hit him with your early bio army, before any tech was up and before he could macro enough to defend efficiently. There were a few sloppy overstims here and there, the most noticeable one I recall was when you engaged his army while he was taking his 3rd and stimmed a lot without doing much damage to his army and putting your units in red-orange for the majority of the fight.
As for the HT-Carrier combo, I think ghost/bc/viking sounds like a decent counter, almost what you had except you were mostly bc/ghosts. If you get enough vikings, they can snipe the carriers while sitting behind the bcs for "cover" while the interceptors engage the bcs (unless they micro to try and kill your vikings of course). You'll just have to be johnny on the spot with your ghosts and have very good emps on his army to avoid getting feedbacked and stormed to death. Even if you lose a lot of your ghosts if you get 1-2 good emps off and he's missing nearly all his energy and/or shields on his units, you can pretty much go in and clean house.
I think what you should transition into to counter his tech switch to carriers depends on whether or not you went for mech or bio first. If you went for a more mech-based play with thors tanks etc. then it would be easier to just add vikings (as you wouldn't have gas for bc-based counters) and have your thor/marine/tank/viking combo push into his base as he's teching to carriers (like Jinro did on scrap), before the number gets ridiculous. If you went for a bio-based play, then you'd probably have a lot more gas available and it feels like it would be easier to get bcs along with vikings and ghosts.
|
On January 31 2011 10:42 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 10:39 avilo wrote:On January 31 2011 10:37 Ack1027 wrote:The Protoss had 12 cannons at 40 mins spread over 4 bases. This is apparently mass cannon turtling with khaydarin as you say? You sat on an FE that was pretty much impossible to break since bunkers are free. Do you feel good getting 500 minerals back instantly after they were used to make your FE pretty much invulnerable? You said the Protoss didn't deserve to win. You had the same amount of bases, played one game vs carriers up till that point I guess and somehow came to the conclusion that it was the most abusive strat ever. I'm sure anyone could randomly pick 10 of your replays and most of them would include some sort of scv pull attacks off 1 or 2 base. SCV threat/priority before the patch was not even the most abusive thing in sc2 but way more abusive than some ' mass cannon templar turtle into carrier ' strat that you seem to claim. How many times have you played vs carrier in your entire time playing sc2. Ask any protoss player how many times they played vs scv pull. You were the first to expand, and the only reason you were slightly behind on your third vs him was because you forgot to macro during your attack on his natural. He's ' always ahead in bases mid-game ' because you forgot to macro. At one point you had 8 starports making bcs vs his 4 stargates making carriers. Hmmm maybe BCs aren't the counter to carriers? Nah, let's make a TL thread. The reason the Protoss doesn't commit to an attack was because he doesn't split his templars and they pretty much got EMP'd every time. The first attack he tried with templars they were lagging way behind. There's no reason for him to commit. If he split his templars/avoided emp better I'm sure there would have been more attacks. You use incredible hyperbole to make it seem like the strats you lose to are unbeatable and have an excuse for every possible situation without actually playing them out in game. Then you tag on a ' discuss ' sentence to make it seem like you aren't crying imba. On January 31 2011 09:44 rycho wrote:
i watched the replay that you named "carriertemplarfaggot" and you sat around making only bcs and not attacking vs an army consisting of void rays and carriers and then complained a lot and called your opponent bad and apparently made a thread about it. i think its pretty clear who the faggot is. ^ pretty much sums up the end of the game. You whine a lot. You whine in your second paragraph more than you claim I did in my OP. I was not whining at all in the OP, I was asking for advice and wanted to generated discussion on how to beat this as it's very strong. And as mentioned, mass bio does not beat carriers, let alone templars, unless you hit clutch EMPs. Mech doesn't beat carriers either...that's why I chose bio into BCS. Could you give a couple replays of you playing mech and dying to carriers? I want to see what you're basing this statement on.
I'm basing it on experience playing this game...and it's also generally known knowledge among Terran players...I'm not going to post my entire replay folder, that's ridiculous. But I will post a few more later perhaps. The one I have in the OP is the pretty standard templar/carrier strat that I'm talking about tho.
|
Yap, I use this all the time against Terran, though I don't turtle up, I open with the phoenix, scouting, harassing, lifting tanks while I tech to storm, if storm alone can't cut it I trade the phoenix for the carrier and there is no real Terran answer I feel. The two things that spring to mind are marines and vikings, both die so easily to storm. Once they are killed, your carriers can go to work unchallenged, unless you want to rely on thors?
The point is that when I look back at the stats, what saves me from feeling guilty is that I was economically heavily ahead. I'm kind of like IdrA, I tend to throw a more costly army away into the meatgrinder because I tend to engage in bad positions. HT/carrier may be strong, but only if you have enough carriers for it to actually matter, and carriers are anything but cheap, ht's are also pretty expensive on the gas.
It may be nigh invincible against Terran, but only if you have a superior economy to support it, if the terran is on more bases and has a higher income you can forget it.
Another thing you have to realize is that an HT/carrier army is slow as fuck. You need to attack at multiple places and he can't do anything. You also can't split it up really, you need it in one giant ball. And if he just attacks you, you can be back in time to defend, because both carriers and HT's are pretty slow unit in contrast to the other protoss units.
On January 31 2011 10:37 Ack1027 wrote:
a some-what aggressive post Maybe the replay doesn't show it, but the composition is very powerful, you can't really beat it head-on, I think, you need to take advantage of the fact of how slow this deadball is.
|
On January 31 2011 09:15 avilo wrote:
i hate you.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
It may be nigh invincible against Terran, but only if you have a superior economy to support it, if the terran is on more bases and has a higher income you can forget it.
Another thing you have to realize is that an HT/carrier army is slow as fuck. You need to attack at multiple places and he can't do anything. You also can't split it up really, you need it in one giant ball. And if he just attacks you, you can be back in time to defend, because both carriers and HT's are pretty slow unit in contrast to the other protoss units.
But think about it, if you split the map, then you are on even income. It's hard for P to attack into PFs, but it's also hard for T to attack into storm.
BCs are just as slow as HTs actually, and carriers are faster than BCs and same speed as ghosts, so P army actually wins the mobility battle, even being super slow. Also defensive vortex against yamato + feedback.
If protoss actually switched to voidrays earlier, it would have been even worse imo.
|
The problem with BC and ghosts is that it is reactionary. HT and Carriers will kill everything you have, and any decent protoss will use that combination to destroy everything. BCs cannot exploit range to destroy anti air like carriers can, and ghosts do not have lethal AOE damage.
The only purpose of getting BC ghost is to beat Carrier / HT, you do not get it in any other situation, because BC/ghost is not as cost effective vs the anti air of protoss as ht/carrier is cost effective vs the anti air of Terran. Thus, going into the late game, the protoss will have the advantage no matter what in transitioning, because terran can only transition after the protoss.
The way to beat protoss with mech is to FORCE him into maxing out on gateway/robo units ONLY. This is the only way to stop transitions from protoss with mech. Then you will have one single huge encounter where mech destroys the gateway units, and terran's mech rolls through everything protoss has. If you do not force protoss into maxing on gateway/robo units ONLY until you push, you lose, because any air transition with HT support will defeat mech.
|
On January 31 2011 09:56 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 09:45 Zarahtra wrote:
How about emping your bcs? those feedbacks just seem so painful. In those numbers BCs are rough to deal with even without the yamatos... In the battle at the 40min mark you took 2k dmg from feedbacks, that's around 40% of the dmg you took in that fight. I don't know, just an idea. Your offensive capabilities would drop, but your units would be a lot beefier as a result. I was thinking about that. In the game I was going for trying to emp the templars so I could maintain yamatos. I think if you EMP the BCS, they will just use storm instead...so i'm not sure. Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 09:47 Alejandrisha wrote:
an avilo qq thread about me? i am honored! gg. i really should have been able to close it out on 3 bases but i forgot my hts.. i think after the fight at my nat you were a lititle behind so it's not the craziest thing in the world that I could outexpo in the mid late game Thread isn't about you. It's to discuss the turtle templar/carrier strategy. The thing with the game is, when you reach that point, I can't attack you cost efficiently as you'll just decimate my army with templar warp-ins. I believe I even EMP'd a huge clump of templar at one point, attacked, and the entire bio ball ends up being decimated with carriers re-joining the fight again after that. And the reason I fought at the natural is I realized you were stopping collosus and going for templar turtle...I had more vikings at the time to be able to kill you then, but storms changed the fight. Maybe I should have waited and played defensive...but that plays into turtle templar/carrier's hands... It seems you have to suicide bio as cost effectively as possible, and then get the BCS up.
im 99% sure you cant emp ur own units
I am truely amazed of how many Avilo haters there are.
i personally love him 
even tho i have to listen the same song 90 times when watching his low quality stream
edit: obviously, i was wrong. You can EMP ur own units.
Btw, what about mass Thor&Viking with ghosts.
Thors dont do great vs carriers but in critical mass with Viking support?
|
Late game toss is very good that why as a toss i would tell you to stay very agressive and keep his numbers low. Both of the units mentioned require a good critical mass, 4 carrier is more then 2x better then 2 carriers. An agressive terran is almost impossible to beat. Dropping poking and proding etc... Protoss wants to be passive and mass up dont let it happen
|
On January 31 2011 11:02 Reptilia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 09:56 avilo wrote:On January 31 2011 09:45 Zarahtra wrote:
How about emping your bcs? those feedbacks just seem so painful. In those numbers BCs are rough to deal with even without the yamatos... In the battle at the 40min mark you took 2k dmg from feedbacks, that's around 40% of the dmg you took in that fight. I don't know, just an idea. Your offensive capabilities would drop, but your units would be a lot beefier as a result. I was thinking about that. In the game I was going for trying to emp the templars so I could maintain yamatos. I think if you EMP the BCS, they will just use storm instead...so i'm not sure. On January 31 2011 09:47 Alejandrisha wrote:
an avilo qq thread about me? i am honored! gg. i really should have been able to close it out on 3 bases but i forgot my hts.. i think after the fight at my nat you were a lititle behind so it's not the craziest thing in the world that I could outexpo in the mid late game Thread isn't about you. It's to discuss the turtle templar/carrier strategy. The thing with the game is, when you reach that point, I can't attack you cost efficiently as you'll just decimate my army with templar warp-ins. I believe I even EMP'd a huge clump of templar at one point, attacked, and the entire bio ball ends up being decimated with carriers re-joining the fight again after that. And the reason I fought at the natural is I realized you were stopping collosus and going for templar turtle...I had more vikings at the time to be able to kill you then, but storms changed the fight. Maybe I should have waited and played defensive...but that plays into turtle templar/carrier's hands... It seems you have to suicide bio as cost effectively as possible, and then get the BCS up. im 99% sure you cant emp ur own units I am truely amazed of how many Avilo haters there are. i personally love him even tho i have to listen the same song 90 times when watching his low quality stream
99 is not enough, you are actually wrong.. You can emp own units.
|
LOL@all the children in this thread getting banned.
My biggest issues with this kind of style is just MASS ghost with marines, so many that you'll never ever get a storm off unless you get lucky, and you can't feedback all the ghosts. Now of course, you'd just want to make more colossi to deal with that kind of army, but it's not like you can just warp in 6 colossi.
I definitely understand your frustration Avilo, it's not easy to deal with HT+carriers, especially if you're not ahead. The best option I can say is get ahead before storm is out by taking a fast 3rd. I do think T should be able to be ahead of protoss if he opens with bio-centric play.
Ideally, you might want to consider doing more of a slowpush with turrets/tanks/vikings/hellions. I've never seen it, but imagine if you can pull it off it's much sturdier/more stable than marines.
If you want work on this stuff I'll play some games, as I definitely agree that T right now has a lot of issues vs HT/carrier.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
