EPT[G] Standard Play Part 2: PvT Colossus Pushing - Page 2
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
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hellohilo
United States68 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
1. Your build skips the zealot and goes for a very fast 2nd gas. This build will have 1 stalker and 2 sentries by the time warpgates finish. 2. The korean version of the 2/3 gate robo build gets a zealot and delays the gas slightly. This build will have 1 zealot, 1 stalker, and 2 sentries by the time warpgates finish. Users of this build include NexGenius and oGsMC. 3. The european version of this build gets a a zealot early and delays the gas a lot, around the same time as the robo facility. This build will have 2 zealots, 1 stalker, and 1 sentry by the time warpgates finish. Users of this build include Whitera and MouzMana. So basically it's a spectrum of builds with your build on one end and the european version on the other. I have experience with the 2 later builds and I used to do your build when the game was new. Now, I have 2 critiques about your version of the build and I'd like to hear your thoughts about them. First is that without a zealot, you can be very vulnerable to a variety of early game builds, specifically when you spawn in close positions. An example would be MKP vs oGsMC on delta quadrant in GSL 3 where MKP proxied a barracks in the middle of the map. oGsMC held but only because he made a zealot, pulled probes, and microed very well. The 2nd critque is that i feel as if you build would have a very hard time holding off a very fast marine/tank push, one that TSL_Rain has used and one that i hear is very popular on the Korean ladder. It's basically a 2 rax 1 fact push that moves out with 2 tanks. the purpose is to contain you with tanks and bunkers For an example of this push, refer to TSL_Rain vs TSL_Tester/Trickster in GSL 4. Basically gas units are close to useless in this situation beyond the first sentry for guardian shield. Because of your lack of the first zealot, your early gas, and your delayed 3rd gate, I believe you'd have a very difficult time breaking this push. When this push hits, you'll have 4 sentries, 3 of which will be dead weight. In fact, most europeans used to do the korean 3 gate robo, but I believe they switched partly because of this very reason. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On February 27 2011 09:59 4kmonk wrote: Great guide. I'm going to nitpick a bit about your build and hopefully bring up a very interesting discussion point (at least for me). As you may very well be aware of, your build isn't a standard robo build in that you skip the first zealot and go for a relatively fast gas. Now, i'm going to discuss the 3 different types of 2/3 gate robo builds that i've seen/heard of. They differ in terms of how gas heavy they are. 1. Your build skips the zealot and goes for a very fast 2nd gas. This build will have 1 stalker and 2 sentries by the time warpgates finish. 2. The korean version of the 2/3 gate robo build gets a zealot and delays the gas slightly. This build will have 1 zealot, 1 stalker, and 2 sentries by the time warpgates finish. Users of this build include NexGenius and oGsMC. 3. The european version of this build gets a a zealot early and delays the gas a lot, around the same time as the robo facility. This build will have 2 zealots, 1 stalker, and 1 sentry by the time warpgates finish. Users of this build include Whitera and MouzMana. So basically it's a spectrum of builds with your build on one end and the european version on the other. I have experience with the 2 later builds and I used to do your build when the game was new. Now, I have 2 critiques about your version of the build and I'd like to hear your thoughts about them. First is that without a zealot, you can be very vulnerable to a variety of early game builds, specifically when you spawn in close positions. An example would be MKP vs oGsMC on delta quadrant in GSL 3 where MKP proxied a barracks in the middle of the map. oGsMC held but only because he made a zealot, pulled probes, and microed very well. The 2nd critque is that i feel as if you build would have a very hard time holding off a very fast marine/tank push, one that TSL_Rain has used and one that i hear is very popular on the Korean ladder. It's basically a 2 rax 1 fact push that moves out with 2 tanks. the purpose is to contain you with tanks and bunkers For an example of this push, refer to TSL_Rain vs TSL_Tester/Trickster in GSL 4. Basically gas units are close to useless in this situation beyond the first sentry for guardian shield. Because of your lack of the first zealot, your early gas, and your delayed 3rd gate, I believe you'd have a very difficult time breaking this push. When this push hits, you'll have 4 sentries, 3 of which will be dead weight. In fact, most europeans used to do the korean 3 gate robo, but I believe they switched partly because of this very reason. I agree with this. The first zealot is usually very important and helpful; It can kill SCV's, marines, force bunkers along with a probe against tech builds (which they will need eventually, but this throws them off), etc. That zealot is really strong early-game. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On February 27 2011 09:59 4kmonk wrote: Great guide. I'm going to nitpick a bit about your build and hopefully bring up a very interesting discussion point (at least for me). As you may very well be aware of, your build isn't a standard robo build in that you skip the first zealot and go for a relatively fast gas. Now, i'm going to discuss the 3 different types of 2/3 gate robo builds that i've seen/heard of. They differ in terms of how gas heavy they are. 1. Your build skips the zealot and goes for a very fast 2nd gas. This build will have 1 stalker and 2 sentries by the time warpgates finish. 2. The korean version of the 2/3 gate robo build gets a zealot and delays the gas slightly. This build will have 1 zealot, 1 stalker, and 2 sentries by the time warpgates finish. Users of this build include NexGenius and oGsMC. 3. The european version of this build gets a a zealot early and delays the gas a lot, around the same time as the robo facility. This build will have 2 zealots, 1 stalker, and 1 sentry by the time warpgates finish. Users of this build include Whitera and MouzMana. So basically it's a spectrum of builds with your build on one end and the european version on the other. I have experience with the 2 later builds and I used to do your build when the game was new. Now, I have 2 critiques about your version of the build and I'd like to hear your thoughts about them. First is that without a zealot, you can be very vulnerable to a variety of early game builds, specifically when you spawn in close positions. An example would be MKP vs oGsMC on delta quadrant in GSL 3 where MKP proxied a barracks in the middle of the map. oGsMC held but only because he made a zealot, pulled probes, and microed very well. The 2nd critque is that i feel as if you build would have a very hard time holding off a very fast marine/tank push, one that TSL_Rain has used and one that i hear is very popular on the Korean ladder. It's basically a 2 rax 1 fact push that moves out with 2 tanks. the purpose is to contain you with tanks and bunkers For an example of this push, refer to TSL_Rain vs TSL_Tester/Trickster in GSL 4. Basically gas units are close to useless in this situation beyond the first sentry for guardian shield. Because of your lack of the first zealot, your early gas, and your delayed 3rd gate, I believe you'd have a very difficult time breaking this push. When this push hits, you'll have 4 sentries, 3 of which will be dead weight. In fact, most europeans used to do the korean 3 gate robo, but I believe they switched partly because of this very reason. Two very valid criticisms. Yes I am a little uncomfortable skipping the zealot on small maps and close positions due to the any kind of early poke with 2 SCVs, so it may be a good idea to revise the build and add a zealot. The zealot isn't free, however: it delays my 2nd gateway and robo by 100 minerals, which means I'd rather skip the zealot vs anything that hits late enough where I can stall with force fields until I get another production build online. Maybe you could skip the stalker and go straight for sentries when going zealot first, in order to get more production buildings as fast as possible. As for fast tanks, yes my build is the weakest 2 gate robo in that situation for sure. I made a compromise though: 2 Sentries after Warpgates are done: if you saw a bunker and know it’s a tech build, you may want to think about think before you warp. This 1 stalker 4 sentry opening is fine vs MM and banshee builds, but if his tech build turned out to be a tank rush, then you’re really wishing you made mineral units instead of sentries here. Unless someone does a tank rush that looks just like a marauder build from the start, my stalker poke would reveal a tech build before I warp in the 3rd and 4th sentries. There's still a gas build-up I can't spend which may or may not be game breaking for me, but I won't know for sure until I face someone doing Rain's build perfectly. | ||
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Kogut
United States147 Posts
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Terranist
United States2496 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Observer sees starport producing without a tech lab: it’s a fast drop. Check for a tech lab on the factory to determine what kind of drop it is. If it’s blue flame hellions, get ready to play the best Starcraft of your life because that’s what it’ll take to win. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On February 26 2011 10:18 Techno wrote: This build order should be obsolete within a couple weeks. Terran's are learning time and time again that Bio past the 10 minute mark is a waste. My recommendation for Terrans: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-192071.jpg) I think the new hotness for Protoss will be Starport openings. Oh dear I want my 20 minutes back. This is a good example as to why GSL maps would be bad for SC2 ladder right now. Two players sitting in their base for 20 minutes just expanding and not interacting. One player leaves all units in a ball for an easy EMP. This replay isnt indicative of anything other than that we need to keep these small maps because players aren't ready for the grown up big kid maps | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
http://www.justin.tv/kesc2/b/280680470 | ||
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dunc
Netherlands1105 Posts
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
good job anyway. | ||
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Azuroz
Sweden1630 Posts
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milfhunter
45 Posts
Was wondering if you guys would ever add an extra gate to make it 3 gate robo to bust down a 1 rax or 2 rax FE? Also even if he is going to some early aggression, wouldn't the extra gate mean that you can comfortably hold the expo without having to cancle in case of 3 rax? Also the guide says to crono out a colosus first but I have al;ways felt that a colosus with no range seems SO DAMN vulnerable to stimmed marauder. Another question for the ballers, I know this is slightly off topic but in what situation would you opt to use the 3 gate expo as oposed to gate robo gate. I ask because 3 gate seem to be so standard now at the low master level. Thanks a lot. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
vs any kind of build with marauders, you're not going to take the expo before you have an immortal. Maybe I should leave that part outside of the spoiler to make it easier to see. I get colossus first without range because 200/200 is too expensive to pay for a single unit. It feels very vulnerable dropping 500/400 the instant my robo bay finishes, so I'd rather save the range upgrade for later when I have 2-3 colossi so it's more worth the resources. 3 gate expo is the other standard pvt build and probably the better choice on maps with vulnerable expansions. You go stalker, 3 sentries, then more stalkers and deny the terran's expansion while expanding yourself, then either add a robo and play with the econ advantage, or make 6 more gates and all-in to take advantage of the other guy's delayed additional barracks resulting from his delayed expo. On another note, I just beat SiN so I think adding that replay to the OP would give this guide a lot more credibility! | ||
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
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milfhunter
45 Posts
Sorry if this is a noob ass question. It just feels like I am not delaying the expo by much at all. iamke55 Also would you ever concider making a guide for 3 gate expo too? All the maps that comes to mind has very open expos anyway. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
I won't write a guide for 3 gate expo because Alejandrisha already has one, and there's another version on Liquipedia. Not to mention I don't understand the build well enough, as I've only practiced the 3 gate -> 6 gate transition. If you choose to make a robo right after expanding, then it becomes the same thing as this build so everything in this guide after the opening applies to that situation too. | ||
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milfhunter
45 Posts
All these awesome guides are and advise is making me quit 4 gate for good. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
The 3 gate robo immortal allin is quite good vs tech lab expands if they don't prepare for it well. As terran, you want at least 2 bunkers to defend it and stim finished if possible. You'd want 3 bunkers to be super safe, especially on maps like xelnaga. Also, I'd like to note that out of the 3 robo builds i've described before, iamke's is the weakest if you want to 3 gate robo allin. As for 2/3 gate robo vs 3 gate builds, i would only recommend a 3 gate build only if you're quite certain your opponent is going for a bio based build. The 3 main standard protoss builds are 1 gate fe, 2/3 gate robo, and 3 gate expand. The advantage the 3 gate has over the other 2 is that it's slightly better vs early bio aggression and that it has more potential for aggression after an expansion. Imo it is the worst build of the 3 if your opponent is going a tech route. | ||
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