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On March 05 2011 16:54 Quochobao wrote:
I have had great success with this build, except on backwater gulch.
There are two pathways into the natural - sentries and canon cannot cover them all. The main entrance into both natural and main is huge - sentry expand is not feasible, either, imho.
How do you toss deal with expanding on backwater gulch?
You can 3 gate expand on that map, although it is a bit awkward. Wall the farther path with gateway/forge or any two 3x3 buildings and put a cannon behind, then position your units in the closer path while being ready to forcefield your ramp against a run-by. I also like to make a cannon in the closer pathway just for the extra damage.
You probably also want to power gateway units harder after expanding than you would on other maps.
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For those who are interested, I've created a YABOT build order for this here. I'm by no means a pro player, so if anyone with more experience finds any issues with the timings or the actual build order (I sure hope not, I pretty much transcribed it straight from this thread), post here, or better yet, leave a comment on the build order and I'll try to fix it asap. I watched the replays a time or two and tested the build myself to try to make the timings as accurate as possible, but I'll defer to someone with more experience on the matter.
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On March 04 2011 13:18 Outtawack311 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 09:35 milfhunter wrote:
What would you say is the best way to pressure with the shark mode? How do you tell how many lings he got before hallucination. It just feels like a freaking coin flip. I am not as high up as you, but the trick seems to be to always assume if you shark close to his base he won't be droning. As long as you are on at least equal bases, macroing correctly, and denying expansions you don't have to worry about pushing into his base. Most of the time you can read what he is doing by sharking the front of his base. If I see any normal build its usually pretty easy to stop. The beauty of this build is the ability to run away, while still hitting their econ. The 2 things that help me vs zerg who mass speedling the most are leaving one zeal behind to block the ramp from run bys in the beginning and to never push excessively. I sometimes throw up a couple cannons to fight off mutas when I see this because its usually the next step. The cannons also help me shark without worrying as much.. If I don't gather the info I need from poking the front of their base I do add Hallucination or just get some extra obs. The one ridiculous build that actually got me was an ultra/ling some guy threw at me. I was sharking and saw what I thought was enough info to get ready for mutas. 2 did actually come to my base, so I wasn't far off. It was the instant tech switch to ultras after those 2 got there that destroyed me. I coulda used another obs or hal that game..ugh. Edit: One more thing, if you watch replays zerg almost always stops droning when you shark. If you feel the need to push into their base wait for a little more tech then the 2 zeal and 6-8 sentry.
Actually I found that wound sharking around the front of the base, if there is 1 or 2 spines there, that is most than enough to stop any sort of pokage, because there is a real danger of a munch of lings from in from the back. Also sharking needs to start so early in order to stop the zerg from saturating both bases, and thats just impossible to do when you have a group of speedlings that can potentially run into your nat and clean it up, and this is before you have the cannons up.
If you wait until the cannons are up THEN start sharking, they have already saturated, or they have started roaches already. Sorry I don't have specific times.... but thats just generally what I have felt when sharking and I feel like its a risky move for next to no gain.
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The game is even if they saturate both bases and have roaches already, since you also have both bases saturated. Sharking is there to make sure they don't skip the roach part and go 70 drones before any units.
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On March 07 2011 09:02 iamke55 wrote:
The game is even if they saturate both bases and have roaches already, since you also have both bases saturated. Sharking is there to make sure they don't skip the roach part and go 70 drones before any units.
I think I just suck then, or I am just doing something completely wrong. I feel like I am following the BO to the dot. But it has never been even, not even close. They seem to just be able to whore drones so very quick betwen two spines.
Any reason why the pros don't even move out and just stay at the nat?
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For reference, here are the probe vs drone counts I usually see in replays vs good zergs, which I would consider an even game:
26 probes vs 20 drones on 1 base
31 probes vs 30 drones as nexus is building
33 probes vs 40 drones as nexus finishes
36 probes vs 45 drones shortly afterward
Shark mode begins and Zerg usually is anywhere from 10-15 workers ahead until he reaches 70 when you're around 55-60.
Zerg needs more income because they don't have force field.
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On March 07 2011 10:02 iamke55 wrote:
For reference, here are the probe vs drone counts I usually see in replays vs good zergs, which I would consider an even game:
26 probes vs 20 drones on 1 base
31 probes vs 30 drones as nexus is building
33 probes vs 40 drones as nexus finishes
36 probes vs 45 drones shortly afterward
Shark mode begins and Zerg usually is anywhere from 10-15 workers ahead until he reaches 70 when you're around 55-60.
Zerg needs more income because they don't have force field.
Ok it looks like I just suck... comparing mine to this. I think i need to have more consistent production.
BTW, are these the numbers for if the zerg is making lings at all?
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Any advice on Slag Pits; I can't win vs Zerg on that map at all. The expo is incredibly hard to defend. I'm assuming a 3 Gate FE is still possible on Typhon and Shattered? I haven't had much success doing it on either of those maps. Do you need to make your gates on the bottom of the ramp already? There's been a trend in a lot of my losses where Zerg pumps up to 25-30 drones and then just rolls me over. I can't defend my expo on any of those new maps.
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On March 09 2011 06:30 Supah wrote:
Any advice on Slag Pits; I can't win vs Zerg on that map at all. The expo is incredibly hard to defend. I'm assuming a 3 Gate FE is still possible on Typhon and Shattered? I haven't had much success doing it on either of those maps. Do you need to make your gates on the bottom of the ramp already? There's been a trend in a lot of my losses where Zerg pumps up to 25-30 drones and then just rolls me over. I can't defend my expo on any of those new maps.
I am not in a much of a position to give advice cuz I suck dick, but i found making a wall from one end to the other connecting with the nexus is good, any holes can be plugged by a forcefield or two. But yeah I have lost so many fucking times to ling floods. Sim city is probably the answer.
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On March 07 2011 10:10 milfhunter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 10:02 iamke55 wrote:
For reference, here are the probe vs drone counts I usually see in replays vs good zergs, which I would consider an even game:
26 probes vs 20 drones on 1 base
31 probes vs 30 drones as nexus is building
33 probes vs 40 drones as nexus finishes
36 probes vs 45 drones shortly afterward
Shark mode begins and Zerg usually is anywhere from 10-15 workers ahead until he reaches 70 when you're around 55-60.
Zerg needs more income because they don't have force field. Ok it looks like I just suck... comparing mine to this. I think i need to have more consistent production. BTW, are these the numbers for if the zerg is making lings at all?
Just assuming a standard greedy zerg who makes as few lings as possible to survive and goes straight to roaches. If they get a ton of lings early on, they have to kill some probes or delay your expo to not fall behind in econ.
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On March 09 2011 06:30 Supah wrote:
Any advice on Slag Pits; I can't win vs Zerg on that map at all. The expo is incredibly hard to defend. I'm assuming a 3 Gate FE is still possible on Typhon and Shattered? I haven't had much success doing it on either of those maps. Do you need to make your gates on the bottom of the ramp already? There's been a trend in a lot of my losses where Zerg pumps up to 25-30 drones and then just rolls me over. I can't defend my expo on any of those new maps.
I have it thumbed down just because of these attacks. You have to either 4 gate expo or put a ton of buildings on the low ground.
I lost a few times to roach/speedling timing attacks just as my expo goes up so I updated the OP to describe how to deal with this.
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On March 14 2011 17:48 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 06:30 Supah wrote:
Any advice on Slag Pits; I can't win vs Zerg on that map at all. The expo is incredibly hard to defend. I'm assuming a 3 Gate FE is still possible on Typhon and Shattered? I haven't had much success doing it on either of those maps. Do you need to make your gates on the bottom of the ramp already? There's been a trend in a lot of my losses where Zerg pumps up to 25-30 drones and then just rolls me over. I can't defend my expo on any of those new maps. I have it thumbed down just because of these attacks. You have to either 4 gate expo or put a ton of buildings on the low ground. I lost a few times to roach/speedling timing attacks just as my expo goes up so I updated the OP to describe how to deal with this.
Hi iamke55,
I been following the exact build order as the one on the OP but I've found that before my 1st round of warp in (when I only have the 1 zealot and a couple of senties) my minerals go as high as 550, is that normal?
If course the minerals goes right down as I warp stuff in but even as I am moving out, the minerals are always over 500. I was thinking if it was worthwhile just going 4 gate expand anyway, because the timing of the expo going down dosn't seem to differ all that much, or am I doing something wrong?
The way I was thinking, if you can 4 gate every time like this and do a slighly delayed 4 gate push with heaps of sentries, would it make a zerg react more and put down more spines as soon as they see your 4 gates?
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[Quot]
Hi iamke55,
I been following the exact build order as the one on the OP but I've found that before my 1st round of warp in (when I only have the 1 zealot and a couple of senties) my minerals go as high as 550, is that normal?
If course the minerals goes right down as I warp stuff in but even as I am moving out, the minerals are always over 500. I was thinking if it was worthwhile just going 4 gate expand anyway, because the timing of the expo going down dosn't seem to differ all that much, or am I doing something wrong?
The way I was thinking, if you can 4 gate every time like this and do a slighly delayed 4 gate push with heaps of sentries, would it make a zerg react more and put down more spines as soon as they see your 4 gates?[/QUOTE]
I'm not iamke, but an over 3k Masters Toss, accept my help if you so please.
You propably understand the build other than I, since for me it is a way to get an ok fast expansion with 0 risk lots of probes and Sentries. Not an zomg ima rush for FE GOOGOOGOGO build
I can barely afford the Nexus when I'm at about 6-7 Sentrys and a zealot (Nexus being Nexus+1-2Pylons, for better positioning, future Cannon and Warpin)
What Is your second Gas timing? I get mine at 18-19. Is that early? Yes but I will not Chronoboost WG research so I get a few more Probes and Sentries faster wich allows me to have just as good of an Eco and be completely safe.
So, get your Gas earlier and spend your Chrono on Gates/Nexus, not on Warpgate technology. Unless you are under heavy preassure and feel like you have to.
Remember spending Chrono on WG research early is just wasted, it is not any more effective than doing it right before the end (Making 40 seconds 20 e.g.) but limits your options of chronoing probes/sentries.
My first round of warpin is 3 Sents, but at that point I already have one or two Zeals (depends on scouting) and 4-5 Sentries.
So when my Nexus gets planted I have a strong enough army to deal with any push that might accur at that time. that is between 45 and 55 food (again situational)
Just delay your Nexus and tech a little, since I do that I hardly ever lose against Zerg.
only lost one PvZ within the last 15 or so. In that one my opponent was masters with 3k and about 100 games, wich is clearly a smurf of someone really good. <- lost due to having too few Gates at 5 Bases.
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rEalGuapo !!!
Sick advice ! thanks man I have ALWAYS cronoed my warp tech, this is the 1st time someone has told me not to, I am going to give that a go.
i fucking BEG you can you please share all your reps, the more the better. I am low masters but my win ratio against zerg is 1 - 2, unless I am 4 gating which brings it up to 2 - 1 lol.
oh and do you shark at all with your first lot of units?
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In your opening you missed the nexus
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seems like almost all toss do this build now. i play zerg and follow muck's zvp build which is ling/bling/hydra/infestor/ultra (only a handful of infestors and hydras as needed for vr). this build in my experience owns 3 gate expo.
my general gameplan is mass lings on 3 hatch/2 base, double evo upgrades. and when you expo come try to kill u. i put down my third base when i move out and with 3 hatches already can drone like crazy. honestly unless u specifically plan your base to withstand this ling assault its not possible to hold it. no one, not one person has saved their expo. lings are so fast you can dance in and out of ff's, and then when he is out of ff's blings mop up.
i think the zvp meta will shift to ling/bling for the map control (speaking only for myself i havent made a roach in zvp in 2 weeks, and my % against toss is very high atm) and synergy with ultras. i dont know what the proper toss response is to double evo ling swarms. feels very strong to me.
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This kind of mentality only works on the NA-EU server where players arent proactive. Pretty much all of the zerg all ins squash that. The fast Hydra build by nexCoCa destroys that. If you arent against a macro Zerg,your dead. If he plays the Losira style, that way of playing isnt good fly high....if you time your overseers around the time that the Collosi needs to come out....yeah get it...OGSJookTo muta build crush that as well...
....basically any proactive zerg can crush that build. The weakness is that ``shark mode`` crap and the thought that the zerg will use any calm moments to drone up, which starts to not be the case anymore.
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On March 15 2011 09:36 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:
This kind of mentality only works on the NA-EU server where players arent proactive. Pretty much all of the zerg all ins squash that. The fast Hydra build by nexCoCa destroys that. If you arent against a macro Zerg,your dead. If he plays the Losira style, that way of playing isnt good fly high....if you time your overseers around the time that the Collosi needs to come out....yeah get it...OGSJookTo muta build crush that as well...
....basically any proactive zerg can crush that build. The weakness is that ``shark mode`` crap and the thought that the zerg will use any calm moments to drone up, which starts to not be the case anymore.
As much as I love this build I am going to second this, that asrk mode is complete utter rubbish. Sure he will work against a macroing zerg, but you have no idea what he is doing. for all you know he could have done a fast hydra build or just mass all in speedlings and you are fuked.
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On March 15 2011 09:48 lexingtonsteel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 09:36 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:
This kind of mentality only works on the NA-EU server where players arent proactive. Pretty much all of the zerg all ins squash that. The fast Hydra build by nexCoCa destroys that. If you arent against a macro Zerg,your dead. If he plays the Losira style, that way of playing isnt good fly high....if you time your overseers around the time that the Collosi needs to come out....yeah get it...OGSJookTo muta build crush that as well...
....basically any proactive zerg can crush that build. The weakness is that ``shark mode`` crap and the thought that the zerg will use any calm moments to drone up, which starts to not be the case anymore. As much as I love this build I am going to second this, that asrk mode is complete utter rubbish. Sure he will work against a macroing zerg, but you have no idea what he is doing. for all you know he could have done a fast hydra build or just mass all in speedlings and you are fuked.
What league are you guys in?
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Judging by how superior they think they are to inControl's build, they must be GSL code S players!
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EPT
