EPT[G] Standard Play Part 1: PvZ iNcontroL Style - Page 7
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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AirbladeOrange
United States2573 Posts
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gdroxor
United States639 Posts
On March 15 2011 16:29 AirbladeOrange wrote: How do you prefer to use the chronoboost? I have been using it on warpgate research (3 I think) and it seems to finish right as the second and third gateways do if they are put down by 26-27 supply. I have seen iNcontrol not use any chrono on the research but instead throws down earlier gateways and uses it on sentry production. Watching his stream leads me to believe that using CB on the sentries is the smarter option since you get the critical amount earlier as well as begin to gain map control. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On March 15 2011 18:39 gdroxor wrote: Watching his stream leads me to believe that using CB on the sentries is the smarter option since you get the critical amount earlier as well as begin to gain map control. Boosting sentries at first is the better choice because your sentries will finish earlier then which allows them to build up energy. Afterwards it is useful to synchronize warpgate finishing and your gateways just being idle. For this strat I believe boosting your first gate twice and your warpgate tech 3x is best. This means you´re first gate will make 3 sentries with 2x CB = 126 - 20 = 106 secs. Warpgate tech will take 140 - 30 = 110 secs. Since your first zealot usually finishes just a bit after your cyber does this will line up exactly. Your 2nd and 3rd gate will then finish about the same time as warpgate tech does. Overall boosting warpgate tech is a bit more efficient then boosting gateways itself when you use 3+ gateways like this build does. Every round of units you warp in instead of just making them saves you 10 secs on each warpgate. Boosting a gateway only saves you 10 secs on that single gateway. Also warpgates have the advantage of getting a unit instantly and then having to wait whereas with gateways you have to wait first and then get the unit, with sentries this gives warpgates a specific advantage of your sentries having a bit more energy. Conclusion: focussing more chrono on warpgates then on gateways is more efficient with this build. Synchronizing your timings is also important to not have idle time on your gates so that is important too. Overall I think the most efficient is 2 boost on first gate and 3 on the warpgate. This does mean you can only afford 3 (i think) boosts on the nexus but this will be compensated by being able to get your natural faster since you reach a good enough sentry level faster. 1 boost on gate, 2 on WG and 5 on your nexus can also be fine but makes getting your nexus a bit less safe, perhaps an option for bigger maps. edit: i don't know how incontrol is doing it but if he spends all chrono on the gate's he is doing it wrong. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Question #1 - Do you think it is useful to delay getting/mining your first gas so you can get your second gas faster? I've been experimenting with this and it has some benefits to the traditional get your first gas when you can. Note that it doesn't matter for your total gas & mineral income if you get your first gas 20 secs later but your 2nd gas 20 secs faster. It also doesn't matter for your total mineral income as long as you make sure you don't get oversaturated at first, which happens at 18 probes (17 isn't saturated because of 1 scouting probe). Because you mine a bit more minerals early on due to not getting gas yet you will have just a tad more income early (and less later). This allows you to go gas-gas-cyber instead of gas-cyber-gas while still having the cyber ASAP when the gate finishes. Note that it doesn't really matter when you make the first gas but only when you start mining it. The benefits of getting your first gas later and 2nd gas faster are these: 1. you can switch plans later since you haven't commited to gas yet. For example if you scout a 14 hatch around the 15 probe mark you can put down a forge and go for the zealot + cannon rush on their expo. If you have already gotten gas you missed the oppurtunity for this as your cannons will be late. You can also defend against 6,7 or 8 pools more comfortably because you can get a forge or cyber+zealot faster delaying gas alltogether. 2. because of point 1 you can afford to scout later on some 2 player maps like xel naga. You will be able to pressure a 14 hatch with the zealot+cannon rush and you can be safe against a 6 pool by putting up forge and 2nd pylon ASAP when seeing it coming. 3. you are much less likely to be gas stolen because you will be putting up the 2nd gas much faster or even at the same time. Disadvantages may be: 1. if you do get gas stolen it is much worse for you. However that generally shouldn't happen. You can always get the first gas quickly but delay mining from it UNLESS you see a drone coming in. 2. they can scout your build slightly faster, however basically ANY build in PvZ has 2 gas so they won't get that too much from that. Overall I think it is worth it for improved versatility and much less chance to be gas stolen. I've always found getting gas stolen to be terrible with this sentry style as it immediately makes your build impossible. Switching to a 4 gate is also a crappy answer as the gas they've stolen actually reveals the nexus (most of the time?) so they can see if your massively boosting something and not making probes -> they easily counter your 4 gate. Question #2 - How do you feel this standard PvZ style holds up at some of the new ladder maps? For me I've been having trouble with this style at Typhon peaks, Slagpits and to a lesser extent Backwater gulch. Key aspects of this strategy are being able to defend your natural with a cannon and sentries, which requires a somewhat closed natural, and being able to (fake) pressure so they can't completely outmacro you. At Typhon peaks and Slagpits especially I see problems with both of these points. First of all the naturals on those maps are very open which makes it difficult to stop roach/ling pushes. Xel naga still has some chokes you can ff to buy time and a ramp close to your natural. On typhon peaks and slagpits you have problems protecting both your ramp and your natural imo. Also on those maps the natural to natural distance can be quite long (especially cross spawn) which makes it much harder to pressure them with your so-called 'shark mode'. They can drone up more freely because of that and crush you later on much easier. Finally colossus / sentry / stalker seems to be much less viable in general on those maps. This leaves me to wonder if this style is even worth it at all on those maps. For example stargate strats are relatively better on those maps then the old ones because of the increased distance between natural and main (they can't juggle queens as easily between main and natural). Finally last question, #3: - Do you think FFE style (for example what Ace showed at IEM) is better then this standard style if the maps allow it? I've always found this standard style a bit weak on the classic easy to expo maps like LT, shattered temple, scrap station etc. Not only is FFE relatively easy on those maps, the (fake) pressure you can do is also much less on those maps because spine crawlers and 14 hatch work great on those. Overall it just seems this style should only be standard on the smaller and more difficult to expo maps such as metalopolis, xel naga etc. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 18 2011 21:36 Warrior Madness wrote: Very helpful thread! I just have a question about transitions. Off three bases you can get a second robo and a DT shrine. But versus broodlords I find that archons/blink stalkers/collosus becomes pretty ineffecient if the zerg properly controls his army. Just wondering what other players experiences are on getting say two stargates instead, or even a templar archives. Seems like either of those would be quite good particularly a templar archives since VRs take a pretty long time to mass. Even without the amulet upgrade I think hts might be good. I always get a stargate on my 3rd because a) it defends you from ultralisks and b) it defends you from broodlords. Also, it's an addition to the protoss deathball. Stargate is worth it, and you can get 3 if you want (to replenish faster). Blink under broodlords, kill, colossi kills everything else, void rays provide huge dps from behind (try to upgrade air attack once you're on 3 bases and you get a a stargate). Oh, and true story, once upon a time I got a 3rd base and got void rays. I killed the zerg army. All of a sudden, he reinforced with ultralisks from every direction, and my army was purely armored! Stalkers and colossi and dead sentries. Void rays save lives. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Key to beating those baneling bombs is to avoid letting them hit your sentries imo, when the ovies come flying in you need to put up a FF wall immediately and then pull back your sentries. The stalkers can take some baneling hits and then you can blink them back. The real problem if any for this strat is that more and more zerg are realizing that hydra's are a bad unit in general. Pure roach corruptor is most difficult to beat with this strat imo. | ||
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Gaslo
Finland951 Posts
I have some biiiiiig problems against mutaplay, it seems that when i try to use my blink stalkers, to buy me enough time to get storms, he just expands expands expands, and i have no idea how to handle mutas after the patch.  | ||
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familyguy123
92 Posts
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
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bankai
362 Posts
Does anyone have any tips in holding this off?? Its hard to hold off ALL banelings, if just one gets through and explodes, all my sentries/zealots are badly damaged! | ||
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Cent
Canada155 Posts
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Twiggs
United States600 Posts
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
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Elothis
111 Posts
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dar0za
Canada74 Posts
On April 09 2011 17:17 cheesemaster wrote: Ugh with this build i still have problems transitioning into 6 gate against mutaling, getting up the 6 gate and enough units isnt the problem , its the stupid amount of spine crawlers they usually get usually when i go for a 6 gate push there will be something retarded like 10 spine crawlers up, even with the amount of units you get from a 6 gate push the few mutas they have and speedlings can easily clean it up with that many spines ive tried getting out immortals among other things, i just cant seem to deal with the massive amount of spines usually some are on the high ground and i cant even hit them, hmmm what i havent tried is just trying to walk up his ramp into his base to bypass most of the spines but the amount of free hits the spines will get as you do tihs + lings or queens blocking the ramp could prove to be difficult, any advice? >< i'm finding the same kind of problem playing standard, i think spotting the speedlings/spire alone isn't reason enough to decide to gateway-allin on 2 bases... a lot of the times you'll get crushed. i'm starting to avoid 2 base attacks all together vs zerg unless i've already dealt some damage and it's an absolute certainty. a lot of my losses are for moving in too far in around 10-11 min mark and losing my sentries. and if i confirm he's pumping muta/ling, i think dropping 2 stargates and turtling until your 3rd is a better option than 6gate. you can control the map and put on pressure with phoenix much safer than with your valuable sentries. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On April 16 2011 13:42 dar0za wrote: i'm finding the same kind of problem playing standard, i think spotting the speedlings/spire alone isn't reason enough to decide to gateway-allin on 2 bases... a lot of the times you'll get crushed. i'm starting to avoid 2 base attacks all together vs zerg unless i've already dealt some damage and it's an absolute certainty. a lot of my losses are for moving in too far in around 10-11 min mark and losing my sentries. and if i confirm he's pumping muta/ling, i think dropping 2 stargates and turtling until your 3rd is a better option than 6gate. you can control the map and put on pressure with phoenix much safer than with your valuable sentries. I don't think I've ever seen a phoenix response work vs mutas in a game with good players. Do you have any evidence? Also, updating OP further. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On April 17 2011 01:01 iamke55 wrote: I don't think I've ever seen a phoenix response work vs mutas in a game with good players. Do you have any evidence? Also, updating OP further. Well, if you get phoenixes early or right after your nexus, you can get enough in time. However, infestors will ruin your day, but the phoenixes are really strong and can kill mutas quite easily when the phoenixes reach their own "critical mass". Dropping 2 stargates ONCE you see a spire is usually an auto-lose from my own experiences. | ||
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