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[G] Standard Play Part 1: PvZ iNcontroL Style - Page 5

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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PointyHatBeast
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland21 Posts
February 25 2011 08:56 GMT
#81
Hello! Nice write up! I have been playing this strategy quite abit lately, but I have never defended fast burrowed roaches which hit before any colossus is able to pop. How am I supposed to react to this kind of play when I scout it? I usually build 2-3 canons at my base and wait for him to engage me at my natural. I usually start hallucination right after warpgate to scout these kind of things, I just don't know how to react. Should I be throwing 4th gateway down or robotics and do immortal? Should I try to engage him at my natural or before natural?
Lush
Profile Joined May 2010
United States657 Posts
February 25 2011 09:14 GMT
#82
Excellent post. Very heplful for my PvZ

Side note. I play random. Major facepalm on your jack of all trades comment. All it takes is more work, there's distinct advantages and disadvantages to playing random, as well as only playing one race.
"you play that nerdy game?"
dafnay
Profile Joined May 2010
Angola375 Posts
February 25 2011 09:26 GMT
#83
nice post , but i saw iNcontroL doing some 3 gate expand vs terran , basically it was mass sentries/stalkers , then expand while pressuring the terran with a proxy pylon if hes expanding ( ff to block reparing bunkers etc ) and I wanted to know if someone has some more precise info about that build cuz I want to work on it ( bored of that 2 gate robo ^^ ), thanks !
ImmortalTofu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1254 Posts
February 27 2011 19:23 GMT
#84
Thank you for this amazing guide! It has really improved my PvZ which has been really struggling lately.
"Friendship ain't a business deal"
jstar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada568 Posts
March 01 2011 06:36 GMT
#85
hmm nothing about broodlords.. by the time its 3rd base some Z's already have brood lords hidden then its GG
Shifft
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1085 Posts
March 01 2011 06:38 GMT
#86
On March 01 2011 15:36 jstar wrote:
hmm nothing about broodlords.. by the time its 3rd base some Z's already have brood lords hidden then its GG


Blink stalkers and good positioning deal with broodlords just fine.
=O
dre2k
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands215 Posts
March 01 2011 20:34 GMT
#87
One thing i struggle with when using this build is the lack of ability to scout after your expansion goes up.
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
March 01 2011 21:18 GMT
#88
On March 02 2011 05:34 dre2k wrote:
One thing i struggle with when using this build is the lack of ability to scout after your expansion goes up.


You can get around this by getting hallucination, but I feel like people shouldn't use it as a crutch when beginning to use the build. It makes you get less aggressive with shark mode, which you would otherwise be scouting with. That in turn lets your opponent drone a little harder and keep better map vision. But once you've gotten good at using shark mode, I think you really should be getting hallucination just for the occasional player who fakes the muta and actually goes roach, or the other way around.
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
Celerios
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada65 Posts
March 01 2011 22:25 GMT
#89
Thanks a lot for the thread ! Very Helpfull
I'm not poor... my macro is just good.
dre2k
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands215 Posts
March 01 2011 22:27 GMT
#90
On March 02 2011 06:18 iamke55 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2011 05:34 dre2k wrote:
One thing i struggle with when using this build is the lack of ability to scout after your expansion goes up.


You can get around this by getting hallucination, but I feel like people shouldn't use it as a crutch when beginning to use the build. It makes you get less aggressive with shark mode, which you would otherwise be scouting with. That in turn lets your opponent drone a little harder and keep better map vision. But once you've gotten good at using shark mode, I think you really should be getting hallucination just for the occasional player who fakes the muta and actually goes roach, or the other way around.

But what if i want to "scout" with shark mode and he runs with a ton of speedlings at me? And what if zerg opens with a ton of speedlings? Whenever a zerg does this and he harasses me a lot at my natural (just after/i'm about to expand) I just get overrun eventually.
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
March 01 2011 22:32 GMT
#91
Great thread, really. But I swear, the more popular this becomes, the more top Zergs are going to hit burrowed roach timings that demolish his opener
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
March 01 2011 23:25 GMT
#92
Burrowed roach shouldn't be hard to hold off considering you have a cannon, stalkers, and a ton of force fields to push roaches out of range of both. Then you have immortals coming very soon as you make a robo around the time you have 5 stalkers.
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
milfhunter
Profile Joined February 2011
45 Posts
March 03 2011 00:35 GMT
#93
Tehemperer and iamke55, you guise are ballers so was wondering if I can get your oppinion on shark mode.

I am at low master, and seems like zergs have a tendency to just drone like crazy anyway so from time to time I just assume they are whoring drones, so I PUSH RIGHT IN with my initial zealot or two and sentries only to find that they have a fuck ton of lings that do a nice surround on me.

I have tried getting a hallucinated pheonix to scout how exactly how much speedlings he got before going in to pressure but by then, he would have already COMPLETELY saturated his two bases and can easily churn out 2 loads of lings instantly, so I guess pressuring at that point is meaningless because I am not stopping him from whoring drones and even taking a fucking 3rd.

Sure there has been times when I have just push in and killed him REAL early because there is like 6 lings there, but more often I have just been back stabbed in with speed lings or just killed as soon as I get there.

What would you say is the best way to pressure with the shark mode? How do you tell how many lings he got before hallucination. It just feels like a freaking coin flip.
Outtawack311
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-04 04:23:06
March 04 2011 04:18 GMT
#94
On March 03 2011 09:35 milfhunter wrote:


What would you say is the best way to pressure with the shark mode? How do you tell how many lings he got before hallucination. It just feels like a freaking coin flip.


I am not as high up as you, but the trick seems to be to always assume if you shark close to his base he won't be droning. As long as you are on at least equal bases, macroing correctly, and denying expansions you don't have to worry about pushing into his base. Most of the time you can read what he is doing by sharking the front of his base. If I see any normal build its usually pretty easy to stop.

The beauty of this build is the ability to run away, while still hitting their econ. The 2 things that help me vs zerg who mass speedling the most are leaving one zeal behind to block the ramp from run bys in the beginning and to never push excessively. I sometimes throw up a couple cannons to fight off mutas when I see this because its usually the next step. The cannons also help me shark without worrying as much..

If I don't gather the info I need from poking the front of their base I do add Hallucination or just get some extra obs.

The one ridiculous build that actually got me was an ultra/ling some guy threw at me. I was sharking and saw what I thought was enough info to get ready for mutas. 2 did actually come to my base, so I wasn't far off. It was the instant tech switch to ultras after those 2 got there that destroyed me. I coulda used another obs or hal that game..ugh.



Edit: One more thing, if you watch replays zerg almost always stops droning when you shark. If you feel the need to push into their base wait for a little more tech then the 2 zeal and 6-8 sentry.
CountBarq
Profile Joined February 2011
United States45 Posts
March 04 2011 04:33 GMT
#95
as a zerg I have to find a way to punish you tosses for goign mass sentry. i will find it. I swear I will!
We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
March 04 2011 22:17 GMT
#96
On March 04 2011 13:33 CountBarq wrote:
as a zerg I have to find a way to punish you tosses for goign mass sentry. i will find it. I swear I will!


Massing speedlings without letting the toss knows work. When he goes in shark-mode, all you gotta do is flank him, preferrably in open area. This is "blind", though, since if the protoss goes stargate, you'll be in trouble. Also, if the protoss stays defensive because he sees all your lings going towards him, then you have "wasted" larvae.

Basically, a surprise attack that requires a lot of larvae.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
SaJa
Profile Joined November 2010
France84 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 00:29:15
March 05 2011 00:28 GMT
#97
Don't need any pvsz Bo since P>Z we just need to play properly to rape them, everything works anyway lol..

And dunno why you talking about incontrol ~~ he didn't invent the build you talking about, and he is neither someone who wins any tournaments, but still a good thread
Spitmode
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany1510 Posts
March 05 2011 07:39 GMT
#98
I'm a 2500 Diamond Protoss on the european servers and I play this build a lot in PvZ. I like the early investment into the mid/late game (sentries) and its also pretty safe against 1 base all ins from the zerg (if you scout it in time).

What I dont really understand or rather what I dont think works well if the zerg player knows that im 3 gate sentry fast expanding (which of course any diamond+ zerg should know) is that shark mode does not really work in my opinion. Sure you can "pressure" abit meaning move out, dance around the watch towers, maybe even poke on the zergs front door a little bit, but you have to be so damn careful because it only takes 1 good surround of zerglings and your complete late game investment (the sentries) is gone in less than 5 seconds.

and even if the zerg doesnt surround you, you can't put on any real pressure. if the zerg is good he knows the build which also means that he knows that theres no way on earth that P could kill him right now. in the early stages of shark mode it just takes a few roaches to deal with it combined with a few zerglings and then the zerg can drone up hard again and take a 3rd base really really really easily and theres nothing the protoss can do about it. absolutely nothing.

in the later stages of the pre-colossus shark mode (when you have like a few immortals and you just started robotics bay) zerg will already have hydras which absolutely destroy your army, if you would engage them. sure you poke a bit, limit his creep spread killing off some creep tumors etc but again, you have to be so careful not to get caught off guard, if you see his army engaging you absolutely have to forcefield it off because thats the stage of the game where you're waiting for your colossi. of course in the meantime zerg is already safely on at least 3 bases (if not 4) and you can't really take your 3rd until you have 2-3 colossi.

i had my fair share of success with this build and im not saying its bad but i dont really like the shark mode thing. i dont think it works very well against a good zerg, because it doesnt apply any real pressure and your "shark mode" army is pretty weak in my opinion and the zerg is free to expand and drone up.

of course when youre on 3 base and you got 4-5 colossi + blink stalkers and upgrades and a maxed out army its not that bad anymore, with good forcefield control and good blinks you can put on some real pressure, but again, in my opinion its far from over even then. zerg has such a good economy that he can throw wave after wave after wave at you, and your colossi get sniped anyways by corruptors, at least in most cases they do.

what are your thoughts about this? especially shark mode?
"Make house -> Robots come out of house -> Robots shoot lazers -> Someone wins"
Quochobao
Profile Joined October 2010
United States350 Posts
March 05 2011 07:54 GMT
#99
I have had great success with this build, except on backwater gulch.

There are two pathways into the natural - sentries and canon cannot cover them all. The main entrance into both natural and main is huge - sentry expand is not feasible, either, imho.

How do you toss deal with expanding on backwater gulch?
Best or nothing.
Outtawack311
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4 Posts
March 05 2011 19:12 GMT
#100
On March 05 2011 16:54 Quochobao wrote:
I have had great success with this build, except on backwater gulch.

There are two pathways into the natural - sentries and canon cannot cover them all. The main entrance into both natural and main is huge - sentry expand is not feasible, either, imho.

How do you toss deal with expanding on backwater gulch?


I can't.. I have won only 2 games I can remember vs zerg on that map. I hate it with a passion.
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