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[G] Standard Play Part 1: PvZ iNcontroL Style - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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CaptainHaz
Profile Joined December 2010
United States240 Posts
February 21 2011 01:40 GMT
#61
I feel this expo style may be a bit too slow on maps like shakuras or cross positions LT. It almost seems more efficient to just forge FE/15 nex, whichever term you prefer. Outside of that and the slight bump mutas can cause, this build/style/term of choice, is amazingly stable.

Thanks for the writeup <3
All of us warned you of the big white face.
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
February 21 2011 01:52 GMT
#62
On February 21 2011 10:40 CaptainHaz wrote:
I feel this expo style may be a bit too slow on maps like shakuras or cross positions LT. It almost seems more efficient to just forge FE/15 nex, whichever term you prefer. Outside of that and the slight bump mutas can cause, this build/style/term of choice, is amazingly stable.

Thanks for the writeup <3


Yes, for some reason iNControl is so freaking good that even on cross he can use this build and still win. I used 3 gate expo on cross/shakuras and most of the time, got owned, because sentries are too slow (and with speedlings+overlords, he knows everything) and not "threatening" until there are the stalkers for shark mode.

I faced this zerg on cross and I knew my zealot wouldn't be able to get there before he has zerglings so I just left it at the wall and so once I started getting sentries (he saw this with a cliff ov), he droned like he never did before.

He obviously knew that I would never be able to reach him in time, and even if I did, he can create proper defenses. Also, there are potential back-stabs as well during shark mode.

This is 2900 masters, by the way.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
Mystogun
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States392 Posts
February 21 2011 02:31 GMT
#63
Ever since I saw my first iNcontroL coaching VOD from Zomax, my PvZ win rate and matchup understanding have both skyorcketed. Thanks for posting this guide =D Definitely a wonderful place to look in case I forgot a timing or something
"What I'm sayin' is that there are known knowns and there are known unknowns, but there's also unknown unknowns, things that we don't know we don't know." | SC2: NoiSe.730 | LoL: Galladiator
Gator
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States3432 Posts
February 21 2011 02:37 GMT
#64
awesome write-up, has helped my PvZ immensely. maybe zergs will have a better chance against iNcontrol after seeing his build analyzed so thoroughly
TSM
Helicopter
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada39 Posts
February 21 2011 03:41 GMT
#65
On February 20 2011 00:53 archwaykitten wrote:
I think that while sticking to one build will almost certainly lead to better results (ie you'll win more games and climb the ladder faster), I don't think it is necessarily the best way to improve. Is a diamond player who experiments with multiple builds across all of the races less skilled at the game than a master league player who perfects one build and then sticks to it? I would argue no. The master level player would win in a "best of 7" tournament if both players chose their races, but the more well rounded player would probably win in a "best of 7" tournament where both players were forced to choose random.


All you basically said here is that a random player is better at playing random than a non-random player. Think before you post please.
SkyLurker
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1 Post
February 21 2011 07:42 GMT
#66
This was so helpful. Its been a struggle for me to find a strategy that is solid. Can't wait for the PvT and hopefully PvP threads. Keep up the good work
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein
b_unnies
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
3579 Posts
February 21 2011 08:00 GMT
#67
the biggest problem with this build is banes/speedling early game. from the start of the game to the time u start setting up ur expo, you essentially give up map control to the zerg. any decent zerg would have 1 ling at each watchtowers and a group of lings to roam the map. if you use probe to scout, speedlings can easily chase the probe down. when you enter "shark mode" your army will mostly consists of sentries, 1-2 zealots, and a couple stalks which is also around the time that Z's attacks u with banes+lings (9~ mins into the game)
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
February 21 2011 08:04 GMT
#68
On February 21 2011 10:52 iChau wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2011 10:40 CaptainHaz wrote:
I feel this expo style may be a bit too slow on maps like shakuras or cross positions LT. It almost seems more efficient to just forge FE/15 nex, whichever term you prefer. Outside of that and the slight bump mutas can cause, this build/style/term of choice, is amazingly stable.

Thanks for the writeup <3


Yes, for some reason iNControl is so freaking good that even on cross he can use this build and still win. I used 3 gate expo on cross/shakuras and most of the time, got owned, because sentries are too slow (and with speedlings+overlords, he knows everything) and not "threatening" until there are the stalkers for shark mode.

I faced this zerg on cross and I knew my zealot wouldn't be able to get there before he has zerglings so I just left it at the wall and so once I started getting sentries (he saw this with a cliff ov), he droned like he never did before.

He obviously knew that I would never be able to reach him in time, and even if I did, he can create proper defenses. Also, there are potential back-stabs as well during shark mode.

This is 2900 masters, by the way.

You could at that stage, skip the third gateway to expand earlier and just chrono boost your nexus non stop, that is what I have been doing everytime I see a 14/15 Hatch. You have the mineral income from chrono boosting to drop your other two gateways and forge right after the expo
falstag
Profile Joined November 2010
United States55 Posts
February 21 2011 08:24 GMT
#69
Good thread and good ideas

The shark mode is new to me need to try it out.
If he looks weird, its his placement match
Dhalphir
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1305 Posts
February 21 2011 08:35 GMT
#70
On February 20 2011 00:53 archwaykitten wrote:
One criticism:

I think that while sticking to one build will almost certainly lead to better results (ie you'll win more games and climb the ladder faster), I don't think it is necessarily the best way to improve. Is a diamond player who experiments with multiple builds across all of the races less skilled at the game than a master league player who perfects one build and then sticks to it? I would argue no. The master level player would win in a "best of 7" tournament if both players chose their races, but the more well rounded player would probably win in a "best of 7" tournament where both players were forced to choose random.


This is a pretty dumb post.

"Someone who plays random more often than someone who does not play random will be better at situations where they are forced to play random"

NO WAY

Can you name a single memorable or significant tournament, ever, in the history of Brood War, or SC2, where participants were forced to choose Random?

Key word there, significant. "Some tournament" run by "some guy" does not count.
Supporting TypeII Gaming - www.typeii.net - TypeReaL, TypePhoeNix, TypeSuN, TypeDBS!!
TomTomTom.965
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany62 Posts
February 21 2011 15:33 GMT
#71
are u sure about the build??
i thougt second gas -> zealot
and forge after 4 gate
You just need a mule ti be succesful
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
February 21 2011 15:59 GMT
#72
On February 22 2011 00:33 TomTomTom.965 wrote:
are u sure about the build??
i thougt second gas -> zealot
and forge after 4 gate


Yes, people have discussed this already.

Second gas --> zealot if he hatches first, and zealot --> second gas if he pools faster than normal or just 14 gas 14 pools.

Forge after 4 gate is correct, but some people like forge first to enter shark mode more quickly or to get the +1 attack faster.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-21 16:02:02
February 21 2011 16:01 GMT
#73
I'm curious - for our 3rd base, when we add a load of gates - why not replace one of the gates with a robo, not for more Colossi, but for Immortals? We're gonna have tonnes of Stalkers anyway with 6-7 gates in total, so wouldn't, say, having 3-4 immortals just be a nice extra touch compared to 6-8 stalkers?

Or is it really just about the speed of reinforcement, or blink stalker mobility? Even so, like I said you'll be having tonnes of Stalkers in any case.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
February 21 2011 16:44 GMT
#74
about the ordering- i still have qualms about the 4th gate right after the nexus but I'm still waiting to hear geoff's thoughts on this ^^
watching him do this and talk about it on a coaches corner is pretty much how i began to beat any decent zerg ever. so if you are struggling with pvz this is the best style, hands down.
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
Khaladas
Profile Joined May 2010
United States223 Posts
February 21 2011 17:25 GMT
#75
I can tell you that this build has helped out my PvZ tremendously since I had my coaching session with InControl.

I love the concept of having one general opening and then adapting from there, and it is indeed easier to focus on a small # of builds you plan to use and learn how to adapt them based on scouting.

I'm a huge fan of getting hallucinate right after warpgates finished. Even if you are sharking around the map I find myself needing a more firm scouting information to make good decisions. The last thing you want to do ( especially on big maps ) is overextend your army trying to figure out their tech path.

I typically hold off on building support bay until I see a hydra den. You really don't need colossi for roaches, and you certainly don't need them if they are going for mutas. If you get hallucinate out quickly, you can wait on that scouting before dropping your robo. A quick 6 gate push with a lot of stalkers after scouting spire is a very strong play.

The other thing I would add that I don't see in this guide is that you will probably want to start working void rays into the mix after your initial colossi push.



time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a bananna
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-21 21:01:56
February 21 2011 20:51 GMT
#76
On February 22 2011 02:25 Khaladas wrote:
I'm a huge fan of getting hallucinate right after warpgates finished. Even if you are sharking around the map I find myself needing a more firm scouting information to make good decisions. The last thing you want to do ( especially on big maps ) is overextend your army trying to figure out their tech path.


Also phoenix-scouting alternative attack-paths while "sharking" around is a really good approach to not die repeatedly vs counter-run-bys. Nothing more annoying than to clear one xel naga-tower on xel naga caverns just to find out that lings have run along the other side and are now happily crunching probes. (Obviously you can't split your army at that point).

Furthermore, the hallucinated phoenix can tell you if you even need to move out at all - some zergs just build enough units early on so that you can stay defensive and gear up to take an earlier third yourself. Or tech more quickly.
I'm always quite disappointed to see players only using one phoenix early on and then the next one in mid-game to check for a third. With 7+ sentries you really can afford 1-2 more hallucinations earlier. Unless you are going for a massive timing push with multiple rows of force-fields to both split and trap everything of course.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
February 21 2011 21:30 GMT
#77
On February 22 2011 02:25 Khaladas wrote:
I can tell you that this build has helped out my PvZ tremendously since I had my coaching session with InControl.

I love the concept of having one general opening and then adapting from there, and it is indeed easier to focus on a small # of builds you plan to use and learn how to adapt them based on scouting.

I'm a huge fan of getting hallucinate right after warpgates finished. Even if you are sharking around the map I find myself needing a more firm scouting information to make good decisions. The last thing you want to do ( especially on big maps ) is overextend your army trying to figure out their tech path.

I typically hold off on building support bay until I see a hydra den. You really don't need colossi for roaches, and you certainly don't need them if they are going for mutas. If you get hallucinate out quickly, you can wait on that scouting before dropping your robo. A quick 6 gate push with a lot of stalkers after scouting spire is a very strong play.

The other thing I would add that I don't see in this guide is that you will probably want to start working void rays into the mix after your initial colossi push.


I find that getting colossi forces him to get less mutas for more (useless) corruptors since colossi + upgrades one shot lings
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
awwnuts07
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States621 Posts
February 21 2011 21:34 GMT
#78
Great write-up. Like Kcdc's FE PvT, I feel like this is really going to guide me in the right direction. So far my PvZ plan has consisted of: Make sure I'm using the fundamentals, get 2 bases, get a lot of blink stalkers and colossi. Attack. I've gotta keep concepts simple since I'm a bronze. But I feel like I've progressed enough to start learning a build's full game arc.

I doubt I'll be able to use the build exactly as outlined here, but I think I'll be able to use a lot of it and tailor it to my preferences. Thanks a bunch
I'm a noob
bankai
Profile Joined November 2010
362 Posts
February 24 2011 04:08 GMT
#79
I think its really interesting analysing korean vs foreigner play style and artosis' argument for practicing one build seems to make sense.

A stupid question though...when you say just practice 1 build and learn to tweak it for different scenarios, does this essentially mean u just change the timing of your each building/unit or do you actually change what you build?? If you change what you build, isnt that essentially a different BO ur learning?? E.g. Say I practice 2 gate robo, but need to tweak for defending a 6 pool, normally i build a forge/cannons. So going by artosis' argument, should i instead just build my 2 gate earlier??

So basically my question is, does tweaking mean changing ur timings or is it actually learning slight modifications of ur standard build (i.e. building different things to adjust)?
TheAwesomeAll
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands1609 Posts
February 24 2011 17:28 GMT
#80
make such a thread for pvp
I think the safest build in pvp is the 3 stalker to 3gate robo build but i cant wait to hear your opinion about that.
dr Helvetica <3
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