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[G] Standard Play Part 1: PvZ iNcontroL Style - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Crushgroove
Profile Joined July 2010
United States793 Posts
February 19 2011 11:53 GMT
#21
As a zerg player, I hate you. Nice thread.
[In Korea on Vaca] "Why would I go to the park and climb a mountain? There are video games on f*cking TV!" - Kazuke
.Enigma.
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden1461 Posts
February 19 2011 12:06 GMT
#22
Very well written guide, I'm sure Inc would be proud!
"Jupiters c*ck!" - Quintus Lentulus Batiatus
junemermaid
Profile Joined September 2006
United States981 Posts
February 19 2011 12:20 GMT
#23
On February 19 2011 20:52 andrewwiggin wrote:
Just a question but, do you need 3 saturated bases for the heavy colossi push?

I thought two was plenty enough?


2 gets the job done, but its easier to replenish your armies and set up for the late game & adjust for transitions if you do get the 3rd down.
the UMP says YER OUT
junemermaid
Profile Joined September 2006
United States981 Posts
February 19 2011 12:29 GMT
#24
This strategy is pretty solid, I've used it multiple times. What works just as well against denying expansions (in lieu of DT) is getting a warp prism after your 2nd or 3rd colossus. It lets you easily direct off-base expansions without investing into the dark shrine + DT, and provides a mineral only solution to keep expansions in check.
the UMP says YER OUT
b_unnies
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
3579 Posts
February 19 2011 12:51 GMT
#25
eh i dont think u should call it the incontrol style because this general idea was done all the way back pre-roach buff patch
FliedLice
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany7494 Posts
February 19 2011 12:56 GMT
#26
Oh wow I love you...

I have been struggling with PvZ for a while now and was looking for a way to pimp my play up Incontrol style but couldn't find anything really... His stream seems to be at impossible times for europeans and I don't know of any VODs (are there VODs?!)

Going to look into it more deeply lateron..

again, thank you <3
Kevmeister @ Dota2
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-19 13:10:33
February 19 2011 13:09 GMT
#27
Really well done write-up, this should help many toss-players at refining their PvZ playstyle.

Although I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the very fast 4th gate, I found that I'm never really able to support the 4 gates at this point in time. Considering you want to build a cannon, start the +1 weapons upgrade, chrono-boost probes and constantly add pylons (you mustn't trade armies at this point). Unless the zerg goes really speedling-heavy I prefer throwing down the robotics earlier after the hallucinated phoenix has confirmed roach-play and then add my 4th gate. But that's obviously just a personal preference.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
wonderwall
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
New Zealand695 Posts
February 19 2011 13:20 GMT
#28
This might be a bit of an obvious/noob question but in regards to probes/economy. What do we call 3 saturated bases? Is that the complete 30 probes at every base? As that seems like slight overkill or is it 16 probes on minerals per base and take all gases?
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-19 14:05:45
February 19 2011 14:02 GMT
#29
On February 19 2011 22:09 sleepingdog wrote:
Really well done write-up, this should help many toss-players at refining their PvZ playstyle.

Although I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the very fast 4th gate, I found that I'm never really able to support the 4 gates at this point in time. Considering you want to build a cannon, start the +1 weapons upgrade, chrono-boost probes and constantly add pylons (you mustn't trade armies at this point). Unless the zerg goes really speedling-heavy I prefer throwing down the robotics earlier after the hallucinated phoenix has confirmed roach-play and then add my 4th gate. But that's obviously just a personal preference.


Roach- Roach/Ling all-ins tend to happen before Hallucinate is finished
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
February 19 2011 14:03 GMT
#30
On February 19 2011 21:51 b_unnies wrote:
eh i dont think u should call it the incontrol style because this general idea was done all the way back pre-roach buff patch


He did it pre-roach aswell. I'm pretty sure he's the inventor of the build, at least he optimized and popularized it.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
February 19 2011 14:07 GMT
#31
On February 19 2011 23:02 Dommk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2011 22:09 sleepingdog wrote:
Really well done write-up, this should help many toss-players at refining their PvZ playstyle.

Although I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the very fast 4th gate, I found that I'm never really able to support the 4 gates at this point in time. Considering you want to build a cannon, start the +1 weapons upgrade, chrono-boost probes and constantly add pylons (you mustn't trade armies at this point). Unless the zerg goes really speedling-heavy I prefer throwing down the robotics earlier after the hallucinated phoenix has confirmed roach-play and then add my 4th gate. But that's obviously just a personal preference.


Roach- Roach/Ling all-ins tend to happen before Hallucinate is finished

with 1 or 2 canons and tones of forcefields u should be good even without that quicker 4th gate
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-19 14:19:53
February 19 2011 14:18 GMT
#32
On February 19 2011 23:07 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2011 23:02 Dommk wrote:
On February 19 2011 22:09 sleepingdog wrote:
Really well done write-up, this should help many toss-players at refining their PvZ playstyle.

Although I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the very fast 4th gate, I found that I'm never really able to support the 4 gates at this point in time. Considering you want to build a cannon, start the +1 weapons upgrade, chrono-boost probes and constantly add pylons (you mustn't trade armies at this point). Unless the zerg goes really speedling-heavy I prefer throwing down the robotics earlier after the hallucinated phoenix has confirmed roach-play and then add my 4th gate. But that's obviously just a personal preference.


Roach- Roach/Ling all-ins tend to happen before Hallucinate is finished

with 1 or 2 canons and tones of forcefields u should be good even without that quicker 4th gate

Should be fine yes, but you tend to get a lot of your Sentries sniped in the process, really need to reinforce quickly. Staying back, letting the nexus take damage while you chrono 4 gates, that extra gate is pretty noticeable
bleu329
Profile Joined September 2010
United States16 Posts
February 19 2011 14:36 GMT
#33
On February 19 2011 21:56 FliedLice wrote:
Oh wow I love you...

I have been struggling with PvZ for a while now and was looking for a way to pimp my play up Incontrol style but couldn't find anything really... His stream seems to be at impossible times for europeans and I don't know of any VODs (are there VODs?!)

Going to look into it more deeply lateron..

again, thank you <3


he is putting VODs of his streams on http://www.youtube.com/incontroltv

zooalt
Profile Joined July 2010
104 Posts
February 19 2011 15:14 GMT
#34
n1 writeup. Thx man.
Some say I'm crazy, I guess I'll always be.
hardethanolninja
Profile Joined October 2010
United States22 Posts
February 19 2011 15:16 GMT
#35
Having only really heard of iNcontroL's PvZ style, and never seeing it, this was a really nice post. PvZ is my favorite match-up because if I lose, I know that I lost a good game, and not to making one tiny scouting mistake or one tiny build order choice error. PvZ has the best progression of any other matchup for me.

The variation on this that I prefer, is to get a forge after my first gateway and delay gas a bit. It gives you the option to harass a zerg fast expand with cannons, or possibly fast expand yourself. Also, if you scout a really early pool, it makes you a bit more robust against that too. I usually have +1 weapons before I start "sharking."

All-in-all, a great write-up. I wish we had more "standard" play against Terran too...I'm tired of being nervous the entire matchup =).
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
February 19 2011 15:21 GMT
#36
If this will make less people voidray/collosus it will be an indirect buff to zerg.
Therefore, thank you.

Also, excellent write up I can definitely see some quality in this.
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
February 19 2011 15:32 GMT
#37
What's the advantages of 15 nexus vs 3 gate expo?

It's kinda obvious, but just making sure.

Economy vs Stability?

Well, which build do you think is better in close air such as Lost Temple?
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-19 15:46:57
February 19 2011 15:44 GMT
#38
Very well-written guide. It'll help a lot of players.

This build is a little too conservative for my taste in that it's safe against everything, but doesn't try to squeeze out every possible edge against what Z is actually doing, so I don't use this build per se, but I do use a lot of its concepts. For example, I believe you can safely 1-gate expand while skipping your first zealot against hatch first. Just note the gas timing and go straight for 1-gate stalker pressure and get your nexus and a wall-off up while you pressure. This opening seems much stronger economically than the 2-gas sentry expand and also forces Zerg to make some early defense. IMO, the 2-gas sentry expand falls behind hatch first economically, so if you aren't able to block Z's expo, you might switch openings.

Because I typically expand off of 1 gas, I only make 5 sentries whereas iNc says he likes 8. IMO, 5 gives you plenty of energy to forcefield what you need to forcefield, but the 2-gas sentry expand gives you an excess of gas early when you can only spend it on sentries. I suspect this gas excess is where the magic #8 came from, but I don't know if sentries #6-8 are a good reason to get that extra gas. It's something worth discussing anyway.

I focus on immortals more than collosi. I might be the only P player in the world who isn't crazy about collosi, but when a good Z player has time to get a balanced army with corruptors, collosi just feel like a liability that gives you a short-lived and expensive DPS burst. I typically get a few collosi eventually, but I like to apply pressure with gateway+immortal and take my third before getting my support bay. I believe I typically start blink and +2 weapons before I make my first collosus. This feels like it lets me apply better pressure and get a faster 3rd, but maybe I'm just wrong.
unit
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2621 Posts
February 19 2011 15:45 GMT
#39
with the push, how do you deal with mass infestor play? as equal infestor to colossus with neural parasite will win as all the colossus will be dead
archwaykitten
Profile Joined May 2010
90 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-19 16:10:15
February 19 2011 15:53 GMT
#40
One criticism:

I think that while sticking to one build will almost certainly lead to better results (ie you'll win more games and climb the ladder faster), I don't think it is necessarily the best way to improve. Is a diamond player who experiments with multiple builds across all of the races less skilled at the game than a master league player who perfects one build and then sticks to it? I would argue no. The master level player would win in a "best of 7" tournament if both players chose their races, but the more well rounded player would probably win in a "best of 7" tournament where both players were forced to choose random.

Also, "standard play" advocates say things like "once you know your build in and out, you won't have to think about it when playing" and "you won't need to make decisions on the fly". However, no matter how standard you try to keep things, situations are going to arise where your plan has gone off the rails and you have to think on your feet. I think it is precisely in those situations where the non-standard players excel. They spend every game training how to think on their feet and make good decisions in weird situations. That skill might be useful less often than having really crisp macro, but it's a skill nonetheless.

One race, one build is the best way to win, not the best way to improve. A jack of all trades is exactly what a lot of players want to be.
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