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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On February 20 2011 00:45 unit wrote: with the push, how do you deal with mass infestor play? as equal infestor to colossus with neural parasite will win as all the colossus will be dead Infestor range is too short to harm colossi. | ||
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ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
Usually my goal is the Colossi/Void Ray deathball though, so I cut the 4th gate altogether and build more cannons instead to stay safe while getting the Robo up earlier, and the Robo bay when I have confirmed that he is not going Mutas. I feel that Zealots are just dead weight and eat into my supply against the usual Roach/Hydra/Corruptor composition, and that is all the 4th gate has to offer if I don't miss my warpins. So basically, I am trying to be greedy and get my 3rd base off 3 gates + robo and cannons. Then I will add some Gates and 2 Stargates, which is where I stop having a streamlined plan and just try to deny expansions/expand myself. | ||
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FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
On February 19 2011 23:36 bleu329 wrote: he is putting VODs of his streams on http://www.youtube.com/incontroltv awesome, thank you too  | ||
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BadWolf0
United States300 Posts
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Mithriel
Netherlands2969 Posts
So big thanks for the write up and big cheer to iNcontroL for being a baller with an awesome stream. ps: cant wait for your next part | ||
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JDM.s2000
United States122 Posts
its crazy how i do exactly what u do, but i never watch replays, streams, or anything. lol i just did exactly what kept winning me games. | ||
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thekoven
United States128 Posts
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
since by that time zerg just will have lingz and roach, this way u can punish him if he tries to presure with lingz + roaches early on | ||
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Cow
Canada1104 Posts
On February 19 2011 22:09 sleepingdog wrote: Really well done write-up, this should help many toss-players at refining their PvZ playstyle. Although I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the very fast 4th gate, I found that I'm never really able to support the 4 gates at this point in time. Considering you want to build a cannon, start the +1 weapons upgrade, chrono-boost probes and constantly add pylons (you mustn't trade armies at this point). Unless the zerg goes really speedling-heavy I prefer throwing down the robotics earlier after the hallucinated phoenix has confirmed roach-play and then add my 4th gate. But that's obviously just a personal preference. I had the same issues as you mentioned, I was never able to support the 4th Gateway while keeping on top of everything else. My preferred 4th Gateway timing is about the same as yours as well. After scouting what the Zerg is doing with my Hallucinated Phoenix, I either take that time to add 3 Gateways to 6 Gate against Mutas, or drop my Robo and the 4th Gateway against Roaches. | ||
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Kahmoon
Sweden135 Posts
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ccJroy
United States483 Posts
Thank you. | ||
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hellohilo
United States68 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
In cross positions on a map such as Lost Temple or Shakuras, should you use 15 nex or 3 gate expo (assuming the zerg is going to FE or just 14 gas 14 pool). What about close-air where zerg can go hydra drops? That would kill 15 nex (air, lost temple) so would 3 gate expo be better? | ||
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Mirror0423
United States175 Posts
If incontrol at almost any point before he got his 5 collossi, didn't pay attention to his army when Ret attacked it seemed like he wasgoing to be dead. Also he had some ridiculouse FFs. FFing that well is not easy AT ALL, and that strategy seems very very unforgiving. You use your FF and run, but if you make a mistake (such as zerg attacks your army while you were microing/upgrading/teching) and lose a significant amount of sentries, there seems to be almost no way to hold off the zerg macro. It seems like a very solid, strong build assuming you have the basic mechanics to back it up, but for most of us who don't have the mechanics ability that InControl has, it seems pretty difficult. I've tried the strategy, and got mauled multiple times by either a zreg opponent who used burrow very well against me, or where i missed a couple FFs and my army got surrounded very quickly. So i guess my question is, is this build viable for someone who doesn't have the high level mechanics that InControl shows? FF is very strong but it does require the mechanics to use, and the collossi seems to come out a bit late that even a small mismicro seems it'll be very unforgiving untill you get the collossi out. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On February 20 2011 10:36 TossNub wrote: Does this sentry heavy build depend a lot on have ridiculously solid basics? If incontrol at almost any point before he got his 5 collossi, didn't pay attention to his army when Ret attacked it seemed like he wasgoing to be dead. Also he had some ridiculouse FFs. FFing that well is not easy AT ALL, and that strategy seems very very unforgiving. You use your FF and run, but if you make a mistake (such as zerg attacks your army while you were microing/upgrading/teching) and lose a significant amount of sentries, there seems to be almost no way to hold off the zerg macro. It seems like a very solid, strong build assuming you have the basic mechanics to back it up, but for most of us who don't have the mechanics ability that InControl has, it seems pretty difficult. I've tried the strategy, and got mauled multiple times by either a zreg opponent who used burrow very well against me, or where i missed a couple FFs and my army got surrounded very quickly. So i guess my question is, is this build viable for someone who doesn't have the high level mechanics that InControl shows? FF is very strong but it does require the mechanics to use, and the collossi seems to come out a bit late that even a small mismicro seems it'll be very unforgiving untill you get the collossi out. Unfortunately, great forcefields are going to be necessary at almost every level. This is what makes playing Protoss hard. Other races will complain that Protoss is too easy to play, but they generally don't understand that if we're half a second late on a forcefield, it can easily cost us the game. This build is particularly reliant on forcefields tho. If you want something that's a little more robust in the face of small micro lapses, you can use 4 gate, 6 gate or 2 base blink timings. | ||
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plagiarisedwords
United Kingdom138 Posts
To beat this exact build they go 15 pool into expand and get speed. A heavy sentry force cannot put pressure on him vs speedlings so he buys himself droning time and he might even double expand at this point. Then they follow up with early hydra den which shuts down a gateway push. Again, they can do crazy droning or expand. The way I realised I could beat this was to get more stalkers and zealots out early and use this to push. This deals with speedlings which forces the zerg to start getting roaches and if he double expand you can just drop another gate and go kill him right away. With the gas that I saved, I get robo bay out before I expand. This means i have access to immortals if he goes crazy with roaches or I have collossus if he goes hydra. This is important as it makes pushing out vs a zerg who has teched fast to hydra possible. Essentially this still arrives at the final unit composition of stalkers, collossus, 8-9 sentries and good upgrades so is the same style of play but the timings are different in reaction to what the zerg does. I think timing your teching / expanding in line with the zergs is important in PvZ as it means you can always pressure them and there are no periods where he can crush you if you push out against him. This means zerg is never safe from you and "shark mode" becomes effective. If you "shark" with 8-9 sentries and 1 zealot vs mass speedlings your opponent just laughs and kills you. You have to shark with something that genuinely scares the zerg! In effect, protoss dictates the unit composition with zerg reacting but zerg dictactes expo / tech timings and protoss has to react. | ||
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Mirror0423
United States175 Posts
On February 20 2011 10:47 kcdc wrote: Unfortunately, great forcefields are going to be necessary at almost every level. This is what makes playing Protoss hard. Other races will complain that Protoss is too easy to play, but they generally don't understand that if we're half a second late on a forcefield, it can easily cost us the game. This build is particularly reliant on forcefields tho. If you want something that's a little more robust in the face of small micro lapses, you can use 4 gate, 6 gate or 2 base blink timings. I'm just saying for the sake of this discussion, i feel like the reason a lot of people don't do this is because of how exact of FFs are needed. InControl's build seems too unforgiving for it to be used at lower level play, so it seems a bit demanding to ask a bronze/silver player to use a build like that even more so on some maps with a relatively wide open center. InControl's build is awesome, and I really wish i could use it, but i know that trying to use this in a ranked game i will get ROLLED for making a couple small mistakes in the early game. | ||
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plagiarisedwords
United Kingdom138 Posts
On February 20 2011 17:45 TossNub wrote: I'm just saying for the sake of this discussion, i feel like the reason a lot of people don't do this is because of how exact of FFs are needed. InControl's build seems too unforgiving for it to be used at lower level play, so it seems a bit demanding to ask a bronze/silver player to use a build like that even more so on some maps with a relatively wide open center. InControl's build is awesome, and I really wish i could use it, but i know that trying to use this in a ranked game i will get ROLLED for making a couple small mistakes in the early game. I was in Diamond when I switched to this style of play and got rolled A LOT! However, only way to get better is to practice and be willing to lose matches. Trying this has made my FF so much better! A lot of it is actually how to allocate your attention rather than having fast reactions. Anyway, for lower level players this style or that style doesnt matter so much. Just counter cheese, have good macro, get good expand timings. Thats it really. As a side not. People love to jump on the bandwagon of pointing at P and saying it is easy to play but just because certain pro players made a show about how it is imba. It might be imba at THEIR level of play where everyone has excellent micro but from Gold - Low diamond, Protoss is really tough to play mainly because all your gateway units are fundamentally weaker on their own. Its the combination of stalker zealot and FF that makes you even with MM or speedling roach. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On February 20 2011 17:45 TossNub wrote: I'm just saying for the sake of this discussion, i feel like the reason a lot of people don't do this is because of how exact of FFs are needed. InControl's build seems too unforgiving for it to be used at lower level play, so it seems a bit demanding to ask a bronze/silver player to use a build like that even more so on some maps with a relatively wide open center. InControl's build is awesome, and I really wish i could use it, but i know that trying to use this in a ranked game i will get ROLLED for making a couple small mistakes in the early game. It all depends on the level of play you eventually want to reach - if you plan on playing on higher level eventually it is definitely worth getting rolled in bronze/silver multiple times because on this level it's much more easy to practice this stuff. And forcefields are always necessary in mid/lategame both vs zerg and vs terran...therefore the sentry-expo is even a great way to "force" yourself to practice force-field-placement each and every game. | ||
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