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On April 16 2011 13:42 dar0za wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 17:17 cheesemaster wrote:
Ugh with this build i still have problems transitioning into 6 gate against mutaling, getting up the 6 gate and enough units isnt the problem , its the stupid amount of spine crawlers they usually get usually when i go for a 6 gate push there will be something retarded like 10 spine crawlers up, even with the amount of units you get from a 6 gate push the few mutas they have and speedlings can easily clean it up with that many spines ive tried getting out immortals among other things, i just cant seem to deal with the massive amount of spines usually some are on the high ground and i cant even hit them, hmmm what i havent tried is just trying to walk up his ramp into his base to bypass most of the spines but the amount of free hits the spines will get as you do tihs + lings or queens blocking the ramp could prove to be difficult, any advice? >< i'm finding the same kind of problem playing standard, i think spotting the speedlings/spire alone isn't reason enough to decide to gateway-allin on 2 bases... a lot of the times you'll get crushed. i'm starting to avoid 2 base attacks all together vs zerg unless i've already dealt some damage and it's an absolute certainty. a lot of my losses are for moving in too far in around 10-11 min mark and losing my sentries. and if i confirm he's pumping muta/ling, i think dropping 2 stargates and turtling until your 3rd is a better option than 6gate. you can control the map and put on pressure with phoenix much safer than with your valuable sentries.
What I tend toward (for whatever it's worth) is, upon spotting spire and mass ling, head toward templar tech, researching blink along the way, add a couple cannons and delay the 3rd just a bit.
Follow-up I normally go into DT harass or warp prism harass, add colossi once 3rd gets up (3 or so colo + 4-6 templar is pretty solid against just about anything). Of course, this leads to turtle style, and has its vulnerabilities, but it's what I prefer over doing an all-in type of push. Of course, this can stress your gas pretty hard, so you end up being rather zealot or cannon heavy, which is why i tend toward warp prism + zealot drops...still kind of a work in progress.
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United States1210 Posts
On April 17 2011 01:36 Everhate wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 13:42 dar0za wrote:On April 09 2011 17:17 cheesemaster wrote:
Ugh with this build i still have problems transitioning into 6 gate against mutaling, getting up the 6 gate and enough units isnt the problem , its the stupid amount of spine crawlers they usually get usually when i go for a 6 gate push there will be something retarded like 10 spine crawlers up, even with the amount of units you get from a 6 gate push the few mutas they have and speedlings can easily clean it up with that many spines ive tried getting out immortals among other things, i just cant seem to deal with the massive amount of spines usually some are on the high ground and i cant even hit them, hmmm what i havent tried is just trying to walk up his ramp into his base to bypass most of the spines but the amount of free hits the spines will get as you do tihs + lings or queens blocking the ramp could prove to be difficult, any advice? >< i'm finding the same kind of problem playing standard, i think spotting the speedlings/spire alone isn't reason enough to decide to gateway-allin on 2 bases... a lot of the times you'll get crushed. i'm starting to avoid 2 base attacks all together vs zerg unless i've already dealt some damage and it's an absolute certainty. a lot of my losses are for moving in too far in around 10-11 min mark and losing my sentries. and if i confirm he's pumping muta/ling, i think dropping 2 stargates and turtling until your 3rd is a better option than 6gate. you can control the map and put on pressure with phoenix much safer than with your valuable sentries. What I tend toward (for whatever it's worth) is, upon spotting spire and mass ling, head toward templar tech, researching blink along the way, add a couple cannons and delay the 3rd just a bit. Follow-up I normally go into DT harass or warp prism harass, add colossi once 3rd gets up (3 or so colo + 4-6 templar is pretty solid against just about anything). Of course, this leads to turtle style, and has its vulnerabilities, but it's what I prefer over doing an all-in type of push. Of course, this can stress your gas pretty hard, so you end up being rather zealot or cannon heavy, which is why i tend toward warp prism + zealot drops...still kind of a work in progress.
Hey, I actually use hallucinations vs muta/ling. If it's too late to do the 6 gate, or I just don't have enough firepower, I hallucinate with ALL of my energy and have a crapload of hallucinated stalkers. These hallucinated stalkers tank A LOT of damage.
The thing is that, in that 17 seconds where the zerg can make overseers, you can destroy his base. Also, you can simply snipe the overseer and he'll have to morph another one or lose because of hallucinations.
So basically, if I scout too late (I have a replay of a zerg going proxy spire), I just attack with chronoed 3 gates + hallucinations.
It's basically a one-time use of a crapload of stalkers to protect your stalkers.
Will add replay upon request.
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Been practicing this build and using it as a good guide against Terran MMM pushes.
One question I had after watching an oGSMC game (forgot which one exactly) was given that more n more Terrans are expecting Colossus and almost overproducing on the Vikings, is it easier to transition to High Templar?? If so, how would I transition (like the best time to start building twighlit etcc)....HT seem much more effective against MMM and also harder to counter too.
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Had a question about applying this build:
The OP says how during shark mode, we should build up more n more stalkers as we wait for 4 Colossus to make that push. I have had games where I tried to push in front of the zerg's base for some pressure with just a sentry/stalker army, with no intention of making a full-on attack but in the end got surrounded and smashed by roaches/hydra.
BUT i have had games where after watching the reply, I clearly had a much bigger economy (like 10-20probes more, same amount of bases) and bigger army and COULD have crushed them tehre and then, but instead, I just kept sharking around until 5 Colossus came, then pushed out...but by then he had brood lords and that was it...
So my question is basically....how do you know if you should just do an earlier push with mainly sentries/stalkers (before Colossus come out) or just wait an keep building up an army?? Should I just halluncinate?? Im afraid that even if Zerg has only 10roaches, and i push, then another 30 roaches pops up all of a sudden and crushes me!
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Canada13378 Posts
On April 18 2011 09:38 bankai wrote:
Had a question about applying this build:
The OP says how during shark mode, we should build up more n more stalkers as we wait for 4 Colossus to make that push. I have had games where I tried to push in front of the zerg's base for some pressure with just a sentry/stalker army, with no intention of making a full-on attack but in the end got surrounded and smashed by roaches/hydra.
BUT i have had games where after watching the reply, I clearly had a much bigger economy (like 10-20probes more, same amount of bases) and bigger army and COULD have crushed them tehre and then, but instead, I just kept sharking around until 5 Colossus came, then pushed out...but by then he had brood lords and that was it...
So my question is basically....how do you know if you should just do an earlier push with mainly sentries/stalkers (before Colossus come out) or just wait an keep building up an army?? Should I just halluncinate?? Im afraid that even if Zerg has only 10roaches, and i push, then another 30 roaches pops up all of a sudden and crushes me!
Get hallucination as an upgrade and ALWAYS ALWAYS use a pheonix to scout them out. And By always I mean every 2 minutes in game. With 10 sentries, spending 100 energy every minute or two is not a big deal but the most useful spell protoss has. You can scout whenever they are doing a tech switch and respond accordingly. If you see a spire starting to morph into a greater spire you can push in and do quite some damage or force them to not get broodlords as quickly as they want. You can also shut down expos that are starting to go up since you know where they are.
That is in my opinion the best response assuming you are macroing decently.
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On April 18 2011 09:48 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 09:38 bankai wrote:
Had a question about applying this build:
The OP says how during shark mode, we should build up more n more stalkers as we wait for 4 Colossus to make that push. I have had games where I tried to push in front of the zerg's base for some pressure with just a sentry/stalker army, with no intention of making a full-on attack but in the end got surrounded and smashed by roaches/hydra.
BUT i have had games where after watching the reply, I clearly had a much bigger economy (like 10-20probes more, same amount of bases) and bigger army and COULD have crushed them tehre and then, but instead, I just kept sharking around until 5 Colossus came, then pushed out...but by then he had brood lords and that was it...
So my question is basically....how do you know if you should just do an earlier push with mainly sentries/stalkers (before Colossus come out) or just wait an keep building up an army?? Should I just halluncinate?? Im afraid that even if Zerg has only 10roaches, and i push, then another 30 roaches pops up all of a sudden and crushes me! Get hallucination as an upgrade and ALWAYS ALWAYS use a pheonix to scout them out. And By always I mean every 2 minutes in game. With 10 sentries, spending 100 energy every minute or two is not a big deal but the most useful spell protoss has. You can scout whenever they are doing a tech switch and respond accordingly. If you see a spire starting to morph into a greater spire you can push in and do quite some damage or force them to not get broodlords as quickly as they want. You can also shut down expos that are starting to go up since you know where they are. That is in my opinion the best response assuming you are macroing decently.
Thanks a lot, will def have to incorporate Halluncination scouting mroe often. My problme is I use it but scout only once or twice to decide if they are going muta/ling or roach/hydra.
Is the most optimal time to research Hallu as your expansion goes up and after you buiild forge/4th gateway (assuming constant unit and probe production)?
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How would you deal with ling infestor ultra? Having a bit of hard time here
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I am playing a friend at masters lvl and having trouble with sling bling multiple queens with maybe infestors and teching fast to ultras. It's so hard to deal with drops so I try to not go robo as much to get blink out during mid game. Do you have any suggestions? or even replays. I also tried to get multiple cannons at my mineral line but that doesn't work too well. thx!
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i talked to a zerg at masterlvl and if you open with 3 gate sentry fe you have and you scout sling/bling/infestor you have to finish with 6 gates +1 or do significant amount of dmg.
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On April 25 2011 16:18 Trakky wrote:
I am playing a friend at masters lvl and having trouble with sling bling multiple queens with maybe infestors and teching fast to ultras. It's so hard to deal with drops so I try to not go robo as much to get blink out during mid game. Do you have any suggestions? or even replays. I also tried to get multiple cannons at my mineral line but that doesn't work too well. thx!
i think blink stalkers/sentrys and inmortals to suck the banelings work fairly well vs this (if you did the build suggested in this guide you should have 8 sentrys and shouldn't need to produce more unless you have to replace some lost in battles), also blink can help you vs drops. You do all this while you get a third up (spending your extra minerals in zealots, the third nexus, pylons and cannons in your mineral lines and your third), after that, you should transition into zealot/archon/templar (archons in the front sucking up the banelings, zealots attack after the banelings are gone), feedback those infestors with the templars and storm the mass of lings/blings (if you stay with blink stalkers, you are gonna die to fungal and ling/bling surround really fast). You can start producing inmortals again in case of ultralisks for support or add blink stalkers again in case of brood lords, i think upgrades are really important along with force fields. Just gotta keep scouting with hallucinations or observers, also since he doesn't have mutalisks you can try to get a warp prism and drop zealots or use storm drops to buy you time to get a 4th base or as a distraction while you are pushing. I hope this helped ^^.
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With the new patch 98% of Protoss players are going to have to use a new build. This is a great starting point.
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On May 04 2011 00:41 NTGKOA wrote:
With the new patch 98% of Protoss players are going to have to use a new build. This is a great starting point.
Do you mean in regards to 3 gate sentry expand or something further down the line?
If the former, that build doesn't really change at all, the timings could be kept the exact same without much difference.
If the latter, you have to elaborate further beyond "new build" since 3 gate expand is still fine and safe. Or maybe you are referring to some kind of 2 gate build.
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United States16 Posts
Great guide, looking forward to part 3 so I can learn some PVP and stop 4-gating.
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On May 09 2011 10:19 theFBI wrote:
Great guide, looking forward to part 3 so I can learn some PVP and stop 4-gating.
You may be waiting a long time for that. Not only am I terrible at PvP, everything about the matchup will reset when the patch comes out. At that point it could return to mass colossus like it was before people discovered that 4 gate beats everything, or the archon could make DT builds incredibly powerful and make 3 gate robo + twilight the only build.
But if by some incredible miracle I do get good at PvP and understand the matchup, I will definitely make a part 3!
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So I was toying around with ways to scout + defend against the roach/ling attack that leaves the zerg base around 7:00, and it seems that if you spend two chronoboosts on probes, and the the rest on warpgate followed immediately by hallucinate, you will get a hallu phoenix out in plenty of time to see if it's coming or not.
If you get hallucinate ASAP, that's 100 gas meaning 1 less sentry, so I figured instead of having an idle gateway I'd just build my nexus OR forge faster, nexus if he expands and is droning, forge if he is 1-basing or has a large group of speedlings before 6:00.
After starting the nexus, build a forge (so you have the option to build cannons ASAP if he IS attacking), build the third gateway, and be prepared to build a 4th (5th? untested) gateway if your hallucinated phoenix see that he's pure droning with no defense. If he's roach/ling busting (your hallu should be alive in his base watching them hatch), immediately build 2-3 cannons and you are safe. If he's not, decide to either chrono probes, or lay down the extra gate(s) and chrono your warpgates to go attack him. Building a single cannon while you attack or getting +1 attack may be useful, but I haven't tested that.
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if my opponent plays mass roaches he sustain mapcontrol, what is my time to move out to kill his expos ?
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If my opponet goes mass roaches , i just play defensive, try to grab my 4th, and try to get a 200/200 with Colossi and Void Rays , but i am only a Platin Player so better wait for a better player to answer that question ^^
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On May 10 2011 21:47 spawnferkel wrote:
if my opponent plays mass roaches he sustain mapcontrol, what is my time to move out to kill his expos ?
move out at 200/200 +3 weapons and kill anything in your way en route to his main.
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Lately in platinum when I block their expo, they mass roach off one base and I can't hold it. What would you guys recommend for that? I usually block it while going 3-gate sentry expand, but can't hold roaches if he responds to me blocking his expo.
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Canada13378 Posts
On May 10 2011 22:52 FederigoEU wrote:
If my opponet goes mass roaches , i just play defensive, try to grab my 4th, and try to get a 200/200 with Colossi and Void Rays , but i am only a Platin Player so better wait for a better player to answer that question ^^
Thats basically what you do but I dont like the voidrays their gas cost really slows your production down unless you make zeaolts. I prefer straight stalkers instead of void rays with blink for the stalkers anyway .
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EPT
