EPT[R] characteristics of a Master Zerg - Page 3
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
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ziggurat
Canada847 Posts
To put it another way, to get to diamond you need to be better than 93% of people. To get to masters you need to be better than 99.33% of people! Which is a big deal!! For those who are interested, here are the numbers for all the leagues: Bronze 46.1% Silver 18.9% Gold 15.9% Platinum 11.5% Diamond 6.9% Masters 0.67% | ||
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IndieFinch
United States124 Posts
I think one thing that really helped me over my last "hump" is just playing smarter. Hitting injects and managing larva is a big step, but after a while it becomes just the "thing you have to do." But actually being able to recognize your opponents build and make an educated guess, really helps you get really ahead. I got fed up with Z a few weeks back and switch to Protoss, after tanking a lot of games I began to win and get a feel for Protoss builds. But when I switched back to Z I began crushing protoss in a lot of the games. Mostly because I now realize the little things such as looking at their gas timing and how much chrono boost is saved up. I started winning because I just understood the game more no because my hands were faster. Also try to incorporate some drops into your play. While I was playing Protoss I had a Z just drop 5 or 6 OLs worth of Hydras / lings in my main...wiped out 3 gateways and by the time the protoss death ball made it back into the base, he just gathered up his units and flew away. Then once I switched back to Z I started trying to do this when I can, it really does help a ton. Just the idea of "Hey your army is stronger, I wont attack you head on" really sunk in with me and I have been playing fantastic since switching back to Z. | ||
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vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
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ShinyGerbil
Canada519 Posts
I miss injects (usually not too much in early game but sometimes) I get supply blocked (at 26 i swear like 30% of games it's so sad) My upgrades are late as hell, I have played 30 minute games at 0-0-0 I usually clump my overlords behind my natural because i'm scared to lose them I only sometimes have the xel'nagas but I forget them frequently with stuff like scouting lings I also commonly get caught way off guard by opponent's tech switches and army compositions that I didn't scout And finally my micro is pretty subpar (1 control group, attack move, yadda yadda) But I'm a master zerg ^_^. I'd say the biggest things you need to know are to be able to keep all these things in mind, not necessarily execute them perfectly. Oh and you need to drone hard as shit and keep your money low. tl;dr master zerg doesn't take any kind of pro skill, just predict when he probably won't attack you and drone really really hard at those times, and then spend your money (macro hatches galore!) and you'll get there. | ||
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ProtossGirl
England123 Posts
On February 11 2011 04:04 ShinyGerbil wrote: Idunno saracen... I miss injects (usually not too much in early game but sometimes) I get supply blocked (at 26 i swear like 30% of games it's so sad) My upgrades are late as hell, I have played 30 minute games at 0-0-0 I usually clump my overlords behind my natural because i'm scared to lose them I only sometimes have the xel'nagas but I forget them frequently with stuff like scouting lings I also commonly get caught way off guard by opponent's tech switches and army compositions that I didn't scout And finally my micro is pretty subpar (1 control group, attack move, yadda yadda) But I'm a master zerg ^_^. I'd say the biggest things you need to know are to be able to keep all these things in mind, not necessarily execute them perfectly. Oh and you need to drone hard as shit and keep your money low. tl;dr master zerg doesn't take any kind of pro skill, just predict when he probably won't attack you and drone really really hard at those times, and then spend your money (macro hatches galore!) and you'll get there. this is pretty true. Masters isn't really some beacon of skill. Compared to BW skill levels at least the average playerbase is "very bad" including myself, I make mistakes that should just not fly at the 0.67% of players. To me it feel as if the skill gap between Bronze-masters is less than the difference between the average master player, and someone of consistent tournament performance like NesTea. Theres still so much basic error at masters level, but i suppose i should be happy(?) if it wasn't for masters being relatively bad (compared to pro/bw) i'd not be able to "boast" to my friends about it  | ||
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
I understand my sample is pretty small, but I feel Zergs play a fundamentally different game in Masters league. They are not afraid to be the aggressor and don't feel the need to play your game, setting the tempo themselves. Honestly, it's kind of inspiring. It really shows how this game can be taken to a whole new level. | ||
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Crovea
Denmark100 Posts
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ProtossGirl
England123 Posts
On February 11 2011 04:25 Venomsflame wrote: So far a lot of good information in this thread. I play in high diamond(Protoss mostly although I offrace every now and then and sometimes go random), and I find the difference between Masters Zerg and diamond Zerg TREMENDOUS. I have beaten many Protoss and Terran Masters, but I think I'm something like 1/9 against Masters Zergs. One thing I notice is against Zerg players my own skill it is a battle of unit composition and a macro race that ends through one or two mostly even pushes. However, when I play against a Masters Zerg I feel pressure ALWAYS. Zergs don't give their opponent a break when in the highest league, constantly throwing me off my macro game when usually it's the other way around. I understand my sample is pretty small, but I feel Zergs play a fundamentally different game in Masters league. They are not afraid to be the aggressor and don't feel the need to play your game, setting the tempo themselves. Honestly, it's kind of inspiring. It really shows how this game can be taken to a whole new level. This is pretty cool to hear, i have a personal theory that Zerg is the race that can most obviously show player skill. Not saying that i think it takes the most skill, but it's VERY easy to tell the difference between a bad zerg, a decent zerg a good zerg and a great zerg. The lines of skill for terran i feel can be very muddied, high ratings off of very simple to execute builds that they run every single time no matter what, at first glance they seem like good players, but then you realise how shallow their ability is. On the flipside you see some absolute genius terran players that just shock and awe you with ridiculous multitasking and amazing gamesense (or sensor towers w/e) ;D In longer games this is true for all races as more and more skill becomes required to manage the lategame situation (unless toss deathball). The way I differentiate between 'required' skill at masters level for the average T/Z is with a little (maybe bad) analogy: Hitting a bullseye, not easy not always going to happen. For a Timing push teamliquid strategy thread build order Terran they have to hit bullseye once to win. For the Zerg to hold this push and then win the game, they have to hit bullseye 10 times in a row. They both require the same skill "can you hit bullseye?" the difference i see is that Zerg has to consistently hit it to win, whereas T only has to manage it once to end the game. For example, how many times have you seen a Zerg player crush a terran push, only to lose in the next 2-3 minutes to the next push. This is one of the reasons i have loved watching games on the new community and GSL maps, and the GSTL games in general. Separating the men from the boys, timing pushes can still work but they have to be perfectly executed, and in most of these games the safer bet is to do more strategical pushes + multidrops whilst expanding, which just makes for such action orientated games, that at times the casters can't even get the words out fast enough to describe it. so much cooler than seeing a 10 year old walk across a 5 second map after being unscoutable due to a patrolling marine at the edge of a base/ | ||
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Overswarm
United States62 Posts
I've won multiple games from people that say I'm "cheesing", when in reality I see their build and just build a unique counter. Terran going 2 rax rush followed by 6 rax expo? Make 15 drones, do a baneling bust build and continually build lings and banelings. Wait for his CC to lift and his army to move out, attack en masse and just decimate his army and economy with 40 more supply of lings and banelings than he has marines. It works every time because it's creative and they don't see it coming. They just think "I can get an expo up" and expand because they're used to being able to. Since I know exactly what they are doing, it isn't much of an all-in but more of a counter. Zerg slightly ahead in drone count, slightly behind on roaches? Suicide rush and kill their queens, kill multiple drones. Rebuild a roach force while doing so so he cannot counter attack. Build two overseers and contaminate their structures. Continue roach production, outproducing him by leaps and bounds and making him choose between drones or roaches (they always choose drones). Attack, win with superior numbers, get called out on "cheese" when in actuality you just understand they're forced into a bad position and you can win on either option. Other games I win by being eerily consistent. Having trouble with 4 gate? If you get all your injects, get that extra queen for tanking/damage/transfusion and those spine crawlers up in time to stop the warp gate, you'll find you can stop it every time regardless of their zealot/stalker ratio.... and with minimal lings. Then you're ahead. Have trouble with that pesky void ray rush? Well, if you're consistently getting 3 or 4 queens in ZvP, you no longer will and can't be surprised by it. Ta-da! A simple consistent addition to your play eliminates an entire strategy that Toss players use to win in diamond quickly and doesn't hurt your normal game! Have trouble with baneling busts as Terran? Set up your wall so that they can't bust it down. Wall off with two barracks and a factory or something until you are expanding. This doesn't hurt you at all, yet... you've elminated a strong strategy. | ||
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OriginalBeast
United States709 Posts
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Mythol
Sweden24 Posts
On February 11 2011 04:42 Overswarm wrote: Being creative or being consistent. One of those two things. I've won multiple games from people that say I'm "cheesing", when in reality I see their build and just build a unique counter. Terran going 2 rax rush followed by 6 rax expo? Make 15 drones, do a baneling bust build and continually build lings and banelings. Wait for his CC to lift and his army to move out, attack en masse and just decimate his army and economy with 40 more supply of lings and banelings than he has marines. It works every time because it's creative and they don't see it coming. They just think "I can get an expo up" and expand because they're used to being able to. Since I know exactly what they are doing, it isn't much of an all-in but more of a counter. Zerg slightly ahead in drone count, slightly behind on roaches? Suicide rush and kill their queens, kill multiple drones. Rebuild a roach force while doing so so he cannot counter attack. Build two overseers and contaminate their structures. Continue roach production, outproducing him by leaps and bounds and making him choose between drones or roaches (they always choose drones). Attack, win with superior numbers, get called out on "cheese" when in actuality you just understand they're forced into a bad position and you can win on either option. Other games I win by being eerily consistent. Having trouble with 4 gate? If you get all your injects, get that extra queen for tanking/damage/transfusion and those spine crawlers up in time to stop the warp gate, you'll find you can stop it every time regardless of their zealot/stalker ratio.... and with minimal lings. Then you're ahead. Have trouble with that pesky void ray rush? Well, if you're consistently getting 3 or 4 queens in ZvP, you no longer will and can't be surprised by it. Ta-da! A simple consistent addition to your play eliminates an entire strategy that Toss players use to win in diamond quickly and doesn't hurt your normal game! Have trouble with baneling busts as Terran? Set up your wall so that they can't bust it down. Wall off with two barracks and a factory or something until you are expanding. This doesn't hurt you at all, yet... you've elminated a strong strategy. wow thanks alot! | ||
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Guppers
United States94 Posts
On February 08 2011 07:26 ayababa wrote: there needs to be a terran version of this  ... should i make one. yes i might.are we question talkers? Yes, yes we are. | ||
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Overswarm
United States62 Posts
A lot of Masters League players have strategies that shouldn't work, but do by surprise. The "clever" plays. Some of them they have really well figured out and can have a lot of wiggle room, but most are things like a terran going one rax to dual starport banshee rush (and getting them out by 6 minutes!) You'll lose if you just "play standard", so scouting is important. But once you experience these kinds of non-standard plays, you'll realize several things about them. Terran going 2 rax with no gas? You have an idea of what he's doing. Terran walling off with 2 depots and 1 rax, getting 2 early gas? You have an idea of what he's doing. It's important to have one or two "counter cheese" strategies of your own that are more indepth than "build drones and counter". While you COULD get multiple queens, expand and make 6 spore crawlers when you see a banshee rush coming.... that has a lot of room for error, and you're eliminating the weakness the Terran has. Specifically, lack of a powerful force. By doing all that to "prepare" for his eventual tech jump, you're telling him "it's okay to only have 5 marines defending your main until you get your banshees out". Yes, you could easily defend against a banshee rush with queens and spores and have a kickass economy. But now you're just in a different situation, just as bad; he's got tech, you've got economy. You've put yourself back in the original situation, except now you're committed to a path. Instead of playing it uber safe all the time, take a win when you see one. Terran gets 2 gas and builds 2 depots to wall? Baneling bust him. Drone to 15, build baneling nest at the same time as your first inject, spend all your gas on banelings and all your $ on lings. When you run out of gas, bust with the banelings and kill his workers. You just won the game! A lot of zergs have this "I'm weak" approach; they turtle until they can produce tons of units all at once, and don't realize what options they have. You know what terran would do if they were going into a game thinking "I'm going to go marine/tank and fast expand" and then saw you fast teching to broodlords? He'd forego the expansion and just kill you. Because he could do that. A lot of zerg players refuse to do this and it ends up hurting them in the long run; they let people cheese them and walk all over them because they're not used to just taking a win when their opponent plays poorly. You'd be surprised how many protoss, even at masters level, won't make more than one zealot and one sentry prior to warp gate finishing. Then they get confused when you put an OL over their ramp and attack with roaches, or just baneling through the zealot. Take a win when you see one. Most importantly, know HOW you're going to do it in advance. "Oh, I see two depots at their ramp, two gas, and they are building their tech structures away from the ramp" should allow you to do your baneling bust build without much thought. I use baneling bust as an example a lot, but there are many varieties you can think up. Is protoss expanding with cannons and stalkers faster than they should? What happens if you just make lings? Tons and tons of lings? You can support 5 hatcheries of lings off of two bases and get a ton of lings very, very fast. Why not just overswarm them? :B | ||
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
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koveras
163 Posts
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Atila
Cuba122 Posts
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
On February 11 2011 10:54 koveras wrote: Im 2900 diamond zerg and yesterday the automatch hooked me up with a master terran. So I am glad to know I have a shot at getting a promotion in the near future. My win ratio has gone up the last couple of weeks and reason is that I started to play more aggressively. I no longer fear the opponent as much as I did a couple of months ago so I would say confidence is also an important characteristic of any master player. When I play against lower ranked players I notice that they are often intimidated by ranks and generaly have the feeling that the opponent they are playing against is so good that they probably have a counter for whatever they are doing. This sometimes make their game worse than it should have been. This is so key. I truly feel that the real difference between Masters league and everyone else is fear. When gold and plat and any player plays, they are constantly worrying about reacting and not dying. Zergs in Masters league say "no, screw that, I'M going to be the one to dictate the game. I'M going to make YOU worry about what I have." It's a completely different mindset and it is brutal and effective. | ||
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
On February 11 2011 04:04 ShinyGerbil wrote: Idunno saracen... I miss injects (usually not too much in early game but sometimes) I get supply blocked (at 26 i swear like 30% of games it's so sad) My upgrades are late as hell, I have played 30 minute games at 0-0-0 I usually clump my overlords behind my natural because i'm scared to lose them I only sometimes have the xel'nagas but I forget them frequently with stuff like scouting lings I also commonly get caught way off guard by opponent's tech switches and army compositions that I didn't scout And finally my micro is pretty subpar (1 control group, attack move, yadda yadda) But I'm a master zerg ^_^. I'd say the biggest things you need to know are to be able to keep all these things in mind, not necessarily execute them perfectly. Oh and you need to drone hard as shit and keep your money low. tl;dr master zerg doesn't take any kind of pro skill, just predict when he probably won't attack you and drone really really hard at those times, and then spend your money (macro hatches galore!) and you'll get there. LOL I was going to say something along these lines. Basically, improving with zerg is all about doing all the things you know you should be doing, plus gaining experience about other races' builds from playing a lot of games so that you can react properly. A plat zerg and a masters zerg both know that spreading creep is good, and that injecting is really important, but the masters zerg is just better at it. I guarantee that if you made a list of things that you think you need to be doing as zerg, it would be very similar if not identical to that of a masters zerg. Again though, the only difference is that you're worse at doing all the things you need to be doing. | ||
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Johnny_Vegas
United States239 Posts
On February 11 2011 09:24 Overswarm wrote: A lot of zerg players refuse to do this and it ends up hurting them in the long run; they let people cheese them and walk all over them because they're not used to just taking a win when their opponent plays poorly. :B YES! I've had an inordinate amount of success on the ladder by just executing various types of rushes, especially against Protoss. Against Terran I find I can often throw the tempo of their game off just by sending 2 - 4 drones very early to harass their scvs while they try to make a rax. I can see how doing unexpected things to throw your opponent off can be really successful. A lot of times it doesn't work out, but its surprising how often it does. All of this comes from understanding the game, and predicting your opponent's reactions. | ||
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