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Hi guys!
First i want to point out that i am not only doing this because i want to become a master, I found out that my old thread ("Characteristics of a Diamond zerg" will post link below) not only helped me alot, but also got alot of great response from other people. When i started the old thread i was desperatly stuck at 1600 platinum, but climbed my way all up to where im currently at, 2700 diamond. Thanks to you
So basically this thread it for those who feel like they dont improve their gameplay and need help from the forums.
So forum. What do you guys think seperate the diamonds from the masters? Share your thoughts about the master league and how you got there
Best regards, Mythol
Link to the old thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170781
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Master League Zerg Players:
1. Can't afford to miss injects, it seriously costs you the game.
2. Never lose scouting Overlords early on and know the best positions for them.
3. Know when to build harvesters or combat units based upon good scouting.
4. Spread creep in every direction with ease.
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5. Macro like a son of a bitch because you're going to need it!
6. Picks the right tech units to counter opponents based off of scouting information
7. Constant scouting throughout the entire game
8. Isn't afraid to play off of and manage 5+ bases
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I am a low masters Zerg. And I think te biggest thing that separated zergs in that are and those directly above and below them is good scouting and acting on that scouting. Understanding when you are safe and when you can drone. By about low diamond I think most players have reasonabl mechanics, so what really takes you to the next level is just having a good understanding of te matchups that allows you to put those mechanics to good use.
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It's sometimes hard to recognize the things that you do well, but I find the things that make the biggest difference at Master level in each of the MUs are:
ZvZ, good scouting, careful balancing of army, don't force attacks, but still try to be aggressive to keep an initiative.
ZvT: creep spread, creep spread, creep spread. I cannot stress how important it is in this matchup to have amazing map control as slowing down marine tank pushes are the only way to get a strong economy going to crush an attack.
ZvP: known all your timings cold and know what you're scouting
More generally though the difference between masters and diamond is smoothness a lot of the time.
Does your pool start right at 200 minerals, do all your drones start either right when you have 50 minerals or right when you have a new larva, does your queen start asap, zergling speed right at 100 gas, lair (whenever you go for it), right when you have your next 100 gas, tech buildings as soon as they can go down, etc. The difference between diamond-level execution of that and master-level can be 10+ food in the first 5-6 minutes and that just cascades for the rest of the game.
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Nothing, MMR gets you in masters, MMR is only controlled by how often you win and again whom, not how you win.
This whole myth that people have in leagues have some different fundamental play-style is pretty unfounded. It's not like the system promotes you when you learnt to scout, only when your MMR is high enough, and probably also a random factor.
You can get to masters on macro, awareness, micro, combination of both, being an excellent cheeser, maphacks, multitasking...
2% is also a pretty arbitrary number, could have been 2.5, could have been 1.5, could have been 1.
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I'd say the two most important things would be:
1.) Creep spread (usually it's good to get a 3rd queen for spreading creep somewhere between 30 and 60 food)
2.) Keeping your money low after the 2 base point.
Creep spread is very important for playing defensively. It makes such a huge difference for how effective your flanks and surrounds are. It's huge for banelings chasing marines. Later in the game, it gives you good scouting information. Also, it's hard, but try to replace creep that's been destroyed once your opponent gets detection.
Most non-masters can keep their money low up until two bases, but then it falls apart when they take a third (or are supposed to take a third but don't). A lot of times the player has 2000 minerals and 0 gas. This can be corrected by taking your third earlier and/or by throwing down a macro hatch in one of your existing bases. Especially when going mutaling, you need the extra hatches for larva for your lings. Watch Idra's stream and you'll see he often times has 4 hatches by the 15 minute mark (usually 3 bases and 1 macro hatch).
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What seperates the men from the boys in the zerg department is mostly mechanics, in diamond you know what to do to counter the enemy build, but you just can't perform it, atleast that's my case, missing injects once in a while, making drones and attacking units at the wrong times, getting your bling nest, roach warren, spire, baneling speed whatever a few seconds too late, these things costs you games.
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I'd think that, other than the obvious creep spread, larvae injects, when to drone / make units ( which are all zerg fundamentals ), the thing that I have seen a lot from master players is the decision making
and overall feel of the gameplay of every matchups
Knowing how to deal with any pressure / scouting info you get, but most importantly apllying it int he game
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I wud say unit control, macro, and game sense seperates diamond from masters. A master player will generally pick a better time to engage then a diamond would, as well as missing less injects&overlords. People in diamond know what units are good, they just don't understand completely how to use them ( like flanking with banelings, roach positioning, and zergling counter attacks )
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Would you say that master league is when you require micro?
The reason I ask is because before the patch, I was what was considered to be "high diamond" playing on dial-up internet (multi-second latency.) Should I be able to get into masters? Or is the cut-off too high for "pure macro" players?
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On February 08 2011 03:42 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Nothing, MMR gets you in masters, MMR is only controlled by how often you win and again whom, not how you win.
This whole myth that people have in leagues have some different fundamental play-style is pretty unfounded. It's not like the system promotes you when you learnt to scout, only when your MMR is high enough, and probably also a random factor.
Did you seriously just write that? I hope this was supposed to be a trolling type of joke. The OP is clearly asking for the tips that Masters level Zergs use to win, which got them there. It is basically a "what should I do to hone the skills needed to play at that level.
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Pray to God that the toss/terran opponent didnt position smartly some marines/stalkers around the limits of their base so that when you decide to scout with your overlord it gets sniped in 3 seconds, leaving you with a very nice and warm "he can push with 5 different unit combs" mood
D:
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Hmm, lemme think
1) Get your BOs down perfectly, follow up correctly depending on what you scout
2) Know when you're able to drone (esp in ZvZ), be as greedy as possible
3) Always check out for the newest metagame change (watch gsl, streams, replays etc.)
4) Get practice partners for all match-ups!
5) Be prepared to get frustrated, masters is where you start to feel the imbalances (and Zerg is shit)
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On February 08 2011 03:42 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Nothing, MMR gets you in masters, MMR is only controlled by how often you win and again whom, not how you win.
This whole myth that people have in leagues have some different fundamental play-style is pretty unfounded. It's not like the system promotes you when you learnt to scout, only when your MMR is high enough, and probably also a random factor.
You can get to masters on macro, awareness, micro, combination of both, being an excellent cheeser, maphacks, multitasking...
2% is also a pretty arbitrary number, could have been 2.5, could have been 1.5, could have been 1.
I had to...
The system doesn't promote you when you start scouting because scouting is an arbitrary tactic that could be good or bad in a given circumstance, and the rating system has no reliable way of knowing what those circumstances are.
However: if beginning to scout is a tactic that leads to you winning more games, your MMR will increase, and the matchmaking system will then promote you because you started scouting. By way of comparison, if you start scouting and don't begin winning more games, the matchmaking system won't promote you, it's true, but objectively, you're not any better of a player if you're doing something and you aren't winning more games in the long run, and thus the matchmaking system has no business promoting you.
To generalize, no, the matchmaking system doesn't promote you directly for doing good things, but by doing good things, you will win more, because a good thing is a thing that makes you win more, definitively. The original poster could have rephrased the question as something along the lines of "what kinds of good things are most likely to translate into winning more games and thus a higher MMR?", but since everyone else understood that the two statements are equivalent, it was largely unnecessary.
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i play protoss but it seems master league zerg players are alot more aggressive early-mid game and macro better late game.
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there needs to be a terran version of this  ... should i make one. yes i might.
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I'm around same rating as you OP and I'm trying to get into master's as well. While I think that I have pretty good macro, game sense, and adequate micro, what seems to be holding me back is not having enough knowledge of the match-ups. I don't really keep up with prevailing strategies, timings beyond (warpgate research), and am probably too content to be a passive player.
I'm also pretty bad at reacting to unfamiliar situations and tend to get rolled over by fast terran or protoss pushes. The threshold between higher diamond and low master's seems to me to be very fine, and resides in extremely minute particulars (1 round of drones and you are dead).
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On February 08 2011 06:47 Dman wrote:
Would you say that master league is when you require micro?
The reason I ask is because before the patch, I was what was considered to be "high diamond" playing on dial-up internet (multi-second latency.) Should I be able to get into masters? Or is the cut-off too high for "pure macro" players?
In ZvZ and ZvT you generally need to be able to control your baneling and zerglings pretty well. I can think of some "master-level" styles of ZvZ where the micro might not be that hard, but ZvT you're going to need at least one of mutalisks or banelings (likely both) and both require you to be able to react relatively quickly, but I don't have experience playing on dial up to know what it's like, I know it's very frustrating/ impossible when I'm lagging in ZvT.
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On February 08 2011 03:25 Sajuuk7 wrote:
Master League Zerg Players:
1. Can't afford to miss injects, it seriously costs you the game.
I truly believe this is the most important, worthy of being #1.
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A few things I'd like to add:
1) good overlord spread
2) pre-emptive unit positioning for flanking incoming attacks
3) almost omni-present awareness of the map at all times
4) creative play, for unexpected tech switches (abusing the larvae mechanic late-game)
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1) Queen Inject timings
2) Macro - queen injections are worthless unless you are able to spend your money efficiently (time yourself, get the fastest 200/200 specific mixed army vs a computer... do it again beat your time)
3) Scouting / Map awareness - figure out enemy composition, don't be caught with your pants down. Sacrifice an overlord, leave a zergling near his ramp, find out when he is taking his next expo.
For me I still need to work on this... creep spread, ovi spread (this will help your drone production during early/mid game). If you know his army composition/position, you should know what units are needed or if your safe to drone.
4) Army position and movement, try not to have a stationary army go kill rocks, go harass, fake an attack. Think of your army power depreciating the more they stay still doing nothing, because they could all be drones.
5) Play games
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Macro
- Never miss injects, especially early game.
- Never get supply blocked.
- Know when to take your gas (don't take it too early unless you plan on doing something with it, e.g. mutas, because it'll really hurt your drone count).
- Know when/how to drone.
- Always be on time with key upgrades (e.g. ling speed, baneling speed) and tech structures (e.g. roach warren), which comes with having a good build order.
Scouting
- Spread your overlords, especially along drop paths.
- Spread your lings, one in front of his natural, one at each watchtower, and one at possible expos.
- Always know where you're putting your first overlords (around his main to sac for scouting, above your nat to check for cheese, behind his nat to check for expo timing).
- Always keep tabs on his army size and composition (with overlords, lings, changelings).
- Know how to read your opponent based on limited information and how to react accordingly (if I don't see a constantly chrono'd warpgate and a zealot + 2 sentry + probe pushing out with a pylon at the nat, I know it's 3 warpgate expand and I can drone a ton before I need to make units).
Micro
- Always spread creep.
- Don't be dumb about engagements (engage on creep, wait for reinforcements before you engage if your army is smaller, keep your army together and attack at once, avoid attacking into chokes).
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On February 08 2011 03:42 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Nothing, MMR gets you in masters, MMR is only controlled by how often you win and again whom, not how you win.
This whole myth that people have in leagues have some different fundamental play-style is pretty unfounded. It's not like the system promotes you when you learnt to scout, only when your MMR is high enough, and probably also a random factor.
You can get to masters on macro, awareness, micro, combination of both, being an excellent cheeser, maphacks, multitasking...
2% is also a pretty arbitrary number, could have been 2.5, could have been 1.5, could have been 1.
really this dumb or just troll?
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On February 08 2011 03:42 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Nothing, MMR gets you in masters, MMR is only controlled by how often you win and again whom, not how you win.
This whole myth that people have in leagues have some different fundamental play-style is pretty unfounded. It's not like the system promotes you when you learnt to scout, only when your MMR is high enough, and probably also a random factor.
You can get to masters on macro, awareness, micro, combination of both, being an excellent cheeser, maphacks, multitasking...
2% is also a pretty arbitrary number, could have been 2.5, could have been 1.5, could have been 1.
I think he's just bitter because he's stuck in silver.
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On February 08 2011 09:58 Saracen wrote:Macro
- Never miss injects, especially early game.
- Never get supply blocked.
- Know when to take your gas (don't take it too early unless you plan on doing something with it, e.g. mutas, because it'll really hurt your drone count).
- Know when/how to drone.
- Always be on time with key upgrades (e.g. ling speed, baneling speed) and tech structures (e.g. roach warren), which comes with having a good build order.
Scouting
- Spread your overlords, especially along drop paths.
- Spread your lings, one in front of his natural, one at each watchtower, and one at possible expos.
- Always know where you're putting your first overlords (around his main to sac for scouting, above your nat to check for cheese, behind his nat to check for expo timing).
- Always keep tabs on his army size and composition (with overlords, lings, changelings).
- Know how to read your opponent based on limited information and how to react accordingly (if I don't see a constantly chrono'd warpgate and a zealot + 2 sentry + probe pushing out with a pylon at the nat, I know it's 3 warpgate expand and I can drone a ton before I need to make units).
Micro
- Always spread creep.
- Don't be dumb about engagements (engage on creep, wait for reinforcements before you engage if your army is smaller, keep your army together and attack at once, avoid attacking into chokes).
Its funny, with high master/semi-pro zerg streamers it always seems to be their creativity that wins the day (with the obvious exception of zvz, and grack, that standard mfer), not to say that your list isn't what a zerg should aspire to do saracen.
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Personally, being a masters zerg, I agree with eth3n. Creativity, along with gamesense, is the way to go with zerg. My mechanics are subpar, averaging around 70-80 APM, but effective usage of my limited APM, along with superior gamesense and strategy allows zergs to rack up wins.
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On February 08 2011 10:50 eth3n wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 09:58 Saracen wrote:Macro
- Never miss injects, especially early game.
- Never get supply blocked.
- Know when to take your gas (don't take it too early unless you plan on doing something with it, e.g. mutas, because it'll really hurt your drone count).
- Know when/how to drone.
- Always be on time with key upgrades (e.g. ling speed, baneling speed) and tech structures (e.g. roach warren), which comes with having a good build order.
Scouting
- Spread your overlords, especially along drop paths.
- Spread your lings, one in front of his natural, one at each watchtower, and one at possible expos.
- Always know where you're putting your first overlords (around his main to sac for scouting, above your nat to check for cheese, behind his nat to check for expo timing).
- Always keep tabs on his army size and composition (with overlords, lings, changelings).
- Know how to read your opponent based on limited information and how to react accordingly (if I don't see a constantly chrono'd warpgate and a zealot + 2 sentry + probe pushing out with a pylon at the nat, I know it's 3 warpgate expand and I can drone a ton before I need to make units).
Micro
- Always spread creep.
- Don't be dumb about engagements (engage on creep, wait for reinforcements before you engage if your army is smaller, keep your army together and attack at once, avoid attacking into chokes).
Its funny, with high master/semi-pro zerg streamers it always seems to be their creativity that wins the day (with the obvious exception of zvz, and grack, that standard mfer), not to say that your list isn't what a zerg should aspire to do saracen.
I'd expect that to be because a top-level Z player does these things so automatically that they can afford to focus mots of their effort on strategy.
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On February 08 2011 12:11 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 10:50 eth3n wrote:On February 08 2011 09:58 Saracen wrote:Macro
- Never miss injects, especially early game.
- Never get supply blocked.
- Know when to take your gas (don't take it too early unless you plan on doing something with it, e.g. mutas, because it'll really hurt your drone count).
- Know when/how to drone.
- Always be on time with key upgrades (e.g. ling speed, baneling speed) and tech structures (e.g. roach warren), which comes with having a good build order.
Scouting
- Spread your overlords, especially along drop paths.
- Spread your lings, one in front of his natural, one at each watchtower, and one at possible expos.
- Always know where you're putting your first overlords (around his main to sac for scouting, above your nat to check for cheese, behind his nat to check for expo timing).
- Always keep tabs on his army size and composition (with overlords, lings, changelings).
- Know how to read your opponent based on limited information and how to react accordingly (if I don't see a constantly chrono'd warpgate and a zealot + 2 sentry + probe pushing out with a pylon at the nat, I know it's 3 warpgate expand and I can drone a ton before I need to make units).
Micro
- Always spread creep.
- Don't be dumb about engagements (engage on creep, wait for reinforcements before you engage if your army is smaller, keep your army together and attack at once, avoid attacking into chokes).
Its funny, with high master/semi-pro zerg streamers it always seems to be their creativity that wins the day (with the obvious exception of zvz, and grack, that standard mfer), not to say that your list isn't what a zerg should aspire to do saracen. I'd expect that to be because a top-level Z player does these things so automatically that they can afford to focus most of their effort on strategy.
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I printed Saracen's advice. Ty.
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Execution of Zergs key mechanics is what separates diamond and masters IMO. Unit Control(mobility/micro), scouting(ovies,lings,creep), reaction and timing (injects, droning, supply, correct counters)
and probably the most important two aspects a master zerg understands is a strong economy and great macro.
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OP here
Thanks for all the great posts :3
lets keep em coming and get players into masters!
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One important thing is recognizing the importance of drops and nydus worms. Too many players think they're used for gimmicky stuff when in actuality they have legitimate mid/late game purposes that are very important and should be used well. Especially ZvP the use of drops to snipe tech and/or buy time for more corruptors is very important and nydus worms can be used to abuse the immobility of Protoss armies.
Too many people think nydus networks are only meant for islands or in base worms and that all drops have to be doom drops.
I guess to say it more generically a Master level zerg needs to understand the importance of buying time and abusing immobility rather than trying to win with brute force (which doesn't work when P/T's get close to perfect macro).
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On February 09 2011 00:34 Logo wrote:
One important thing is recognizing the importance of drops and nydus worms. Too many players think they're used for gimmicky stuff when in actuality they have legitimate mid/late game purposes that are very important and should be used well. Especially ZvP the use of drops to snipe tech and/or buy time for more corruptors is very important and nydus worms can be used to abuse the immobility of Protoss armies.
Too many people think nydus networks are only meant for islands or in base worms and that all drops have to be doom drops.
I guess to say it more generically a Master level zerg needs to understand the importance of buying time and abusing immobility rather than trying to win with brute force (which doesn't work when P/T's get close to perfect macro).
Not necessarily. I'm a master zerg and very very rarely do I use drops or nydrus. There are more crucial upgrades and other points to focus on (until late game and using them as money dumps).
My addition would be the use of deductive scouting/reasoning. Knowing when you can expand, drone, upgrade tech all rely on scouting and what you take away from it (seeing when it's safe to do so and what tech you should be pursuing). Most know about poking up ramps with lings and pushing in with an overlord at certain times, but looking for more subtle cues provides better information.
Things like where the chronoboosts are going in the early game or what's the second unit out of the gateway and the timing of his second gas.
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On February 08 2011 09:58 Saracen wrote:Macro
- Never miss injects, especially early game.
- Never get supply blocked.
- Know when to take your gas (don't take it too early unless you plan on doing something with it, e.g. mutas, because it'll really hurt your drone count).
- Know when/how to drone.
- Always be on time with key upgrades (e.g. ling speed, baneling speed) and tech structures (e.g. roach warren), which comes with having a good build order.
Scouting
- Spread your overlords, especially along drop paths.
- Spread your lings, one in front of his natural, one at each watchtower, and one at possible expos.
- Always know where you're putting your first overlords (around his main to sac for scouting, above your nat to check for cheese, behind his nat to check for expo timing).
- Always keep tabs on his army size and composition (with overlords, lings, changelings).
- Know how to read your opponent based on limited information and how to react accordingly (if I don't see a constantly chrono'd warpgate and a zealot + 2 sentry + probe pushing out with a pylon at the nat, I know it's 3 warpgate expand and I can drone a ton before I need to make units).
Micro
- Always spread creep.
- Don't be dumb about engagements (engage on creep, wait for reinforcements before you engage if your army is smaller, keep your army together and attack at once, avoid attacking into chokes).
Of course all those things people post in this thread gonna help to get in masters but they does not mean you can't be in master's w/o them.
Master players miss injects all the time (I don't mean crucial first 7min injects), they poorly spread creep (look at some GSL players who does not know that creep exists), getting supply blocked, etc, etc...
Btw I don't disagree with you Saracen, just you can't define what you need to be in masters.
Masters are just a little bit better at everything compared to diamonds.
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As a Terran player, the first thing I noticed when I climbed the ladder (somewhat recently went up around 300-400~ points) is that the better Zerg players understand how to get ahead.
All decent Zergs can fast expand, which is the first step to getting ahead. It is only the better ones that really know how to capitalize on it. For example, when I know I'm playing against a good Zerg player, I'm constantly worried that if I leave him alone for even a short amount of time, he'll be unreachable ahead of me in base/army count.
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On February 09 2011 01:13 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 09:58 Saracen wrote:Macro
- Never miss injects, especially early game.
- Never get supply blocked.
- Know when to take your gas (don't take it too early unless you plan on doing something with it, e.g. mutas, because it'll really hurt your drone count).
- Know when/how to drone.
- Always be on time with key upgrades (e.g. ling speed, baneling speed) and tech structures (e.g. roach warren), which comes with having a good build order.
Scouting
- Spread your overlords, especially along drop paths.
- Spread your lings, one in front of his natural, one at each watchtower, and one at possible expos.
- Always know where you're putting your first overlords (around his main to sac for scouting, above your nat to check for cheese, behind his nat to check for expo timing).
- Always keep tabs on his army size and composition (with overlords, lings, changelings).
- Know how to read your opponent based on limited information and how to react accordingly (if I don't see a constantly chrono'd warpgate and a zealot + 2 sentry + probe pushing out with a pylon at the nat, I know it's 3 warpgate expand and I can drone a ton before I need to make units).
Micro
- Always spread creep.
- Don't be dumb about engagements (engage on creep, wait for reinforcements before you engage if your army is smaller, keep your army together and attack at once, avoid attacking into chokes).
Of course all those things people post in this thread gonna help to get in masters but they does not mean you can't be in master's w/o them. Master players miss injects all the time (I don't mean crucial first 7min injects), they poorly spread creep (look at some GSL players who does not know that creep exists), getting supply blocked, etc, etc... Btw I don't disagree with you Saracen, just you can't define what you need to be in masters. Masters are just a little bit better at everything compared to diamonds.
It's exceedingly unlikely that every player in Masters is better at everything than ever player in Diamond. It would seem extremely likely, then, that some things are more valuable than others. As I understood this thread, it was more of an inquiry into which things are the most important traits to get one into Masters, as opposed to a list of everything that's good.
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has the ability to stop 4gate
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On February 09 2011 01:45 artosisporn wrote:
has the ability to stop 4gate
LOL. depressingly true. everytime i see a 4gate i think to myself "free win".
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On February 08 2011 10:42 Acridice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 03:42 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Nothing, MMR gets you in masters, MMR is only controlled by how often you win and again whom, not how you win.
This whole myth that people have in leagues have some different fundamental play-style is pretty unfounded. It's not like the system promotes you when you learnt to scout, only when your MMR is high enough, and probably also a random factor.
You can get to masters on macro, awareness, micro, combination of both, being an excellent cheeser, maphacks, multitasking...
2% is also a pretty arbitrary number, could have been 2.5, could have been 1.5, could have been 1. I think he's just bitter because he's stuck in silver.
Actually his statement seems pretty accurate. Some guys in masters have great mechanics, some guys have lousy mechanics and 60 apm. Some guys are relentless with their scouting, others almost never scout but compensate with better game sense. Some guys have great micro, other guys have shitty micro but have stronger macro and great unit comps. Some guys are pretty mediocre all around but have a few very solid builds and pushes that are much harder to defend than they are to execute (applies more to masters toss/terran than zerg). And yes, there are some people that probably have maphacks which would make getting into masters very, very easy.
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According to sc2ranks, about 6.9% of players are in diamond, while only .67% are in masters. I can't comment on specifically what it takes to go from one ot the other, but I think the numbers make it clear that it's a pretty significant difference!
To put it another way, to get to diamond you need to be better than 93% of people. To get to masters you need to be better than 99.33% of people! Which is a big deal!!
For those who are interested, here are the numbers for all the leagues:
Bronze 46.1%
Silver 18.9%
Gold 15.9%
Platinum 11.5%
Diamond 6.9%
Masters 0.67%
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Lots of good information in this thread, I am about the same spot as you are Mythol. Currently around 2900 diamond.
I think one thing that really helped me over my last "hump" is just playing smarter. Hitting injects and managing larva is a big step, but after a while it becomes just the "thing you have to do." But actually being able to recognize your opponents build and make an educated guess, really helps you get really ahead. I got fed up with Z a few weeks back and switch to Protoss, after tanking a lot of games I began to win and get a feel for Protoss builds. But when I switched back to Z I began crushing protoss in a lot of the games. Mostly because I now realize the little things such as looking at their gas timing and how much chrono boost is saved up. I started winning because I just understood the game more no because my hands were faster.
Also try to incorporate some drops into your play. While I was playing Protoss I had a Z just drop 5 or 6 OLs worth of Hydras / lings in my main...wiped out 3 gateways and by the time the protoss death ball made it back into the base, he just gathered up his units and flew away. Then once I switched back to Z I started trying to do this when I can, it really does help a ton. Just the idea of "Hey your army is stronger, I wont attack you head on" really sunk in with me and I have been playing fantastic since switching back to Z.
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They have superior macro... that's really it
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Idunno saracen...
I miss injects (usually not too much in early game but sometimes)
I get supply blocked (at 26 i swear like 30% of games it's so sad)
My upgrades are late as hell, I have played 30 minute games at 0-0-0
I usually clump my overlords behind my natural because i'm scared to lose them
I only sometimes have the xel'nagas but I forget them frequently with stuff like scouting lings
I also commonly get caught way off guard by opponent's tech switches and army compositions that I didn't scout
And finally my micro is pretty subpar (1 control group, attack move, yadda yadda)
But I'm a master zerg ^_^. I'd say the biggest things you need to know are to be able to keep all these things in mind, not necessarily execute them perfectly. Oh and you need to drone hard as shit and keep your money low.
tl;dr master zerg doesn't take any kind of pro skill, just predict when he probably won't attack you and drone really really hard at those times, and then spend your money (macro hatches galore!) and you'll get there.
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On February 11 2011 04:04 ShinyGerbil wrote:
Idunno saracen...
I miss injects (usually not too much in early game but sometimes)
I get supply blocked (at 26 i swear like 30% of games it's so sad)
My upgrades are late as hell, I have played 30 minute games at 0-0-0
I usually clump my overlords behind my natural because i'm scared to lose them
I only sometimes have the xel'nagas but I forget them frequently with stuff like scouting lings
I also commonly get caught way off guard by opponent's tech switches and army compositions that I didn't scout
And finally my micro is pretty subpar (1 control group, attack move, yadda yadda)
But I'm a master zerg ^_^. I'd say the biggest things you need to know are to be able to keep all these things in mind, not necessarily execute them perfectly. Oh and you need to drone hard as shit and keep your money low.
tl;dr master zerg doesn't take any kind of pro skill, just predict when he probably won't attack you and drone really really hard at those times, and then spend your money (macro hatches galore!) and you'll get there.
this is pretty true.
Masters isn't really some beacon of skill. Compared to BW skill levels at least the average playerbase is "very bad" including myself, I make mistakes that should just not fly at the 0.67% of players.
To me it feel as if the skill gap between Bronze-masters is less than the difference between the average master player, and someone of consistent tournament performance like NesTea.
Theres still so much basic error at masters level, but i suppose i should be happy(?) if it wasn't for masters being relatively bad (compared to pro/bw) i'd not be able to "boast" to my friends about it 
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So far a lot of good information in this thread. I play in high diamond(Protoss mostly although I offrace every now and then and sometimes go random), and I find the difference between Masters Zerg and diamond Zerg TREMENDOUS. I have beaten many Protoss and Terran Masters, but I think I'm something like 1/9 against Masters Zergs. One thing I notice is against Zerg players my own skill it is a battle of unit composition and a macro race that ends through one or two mostly even pushes. However, when I play against a Masters Zerg I feel pressure ALWAYS. Zergs don't give their opponent a break when in the highest league, constantly throwing me off my macro game when usually it's the other way around.
I understand my sample is pretty small, but I feel Zergs play a fundamentally different game in Masters league. They are not afraid to be the aggressor and don't feel the need to play your game, setting the tempo themselves.
Honestly, it's kind of inspiring. It really shows how this game can be taken to a whole new level.
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Knows specific timings for when a push can be affective, or when to scout for opponents builds.
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On February 11 2011 04:25 Venomsflame wrote:
So far a lot of good information in this thread. I play in high diamond(Protoss mostly although I offrace every now and then and sometimes go random), and I find the difference between Masters Zerg and diamond Zerg TREMENDOUS. I have beaten many Protoss and Terran Masters, but I think I'm something like 1/9 against Masters Zergs. One thing I notice is against Zerg players my own skill it is a battle of unit composition and a macro race that ends through one or two mostly even pushes. However, when I play against a Masters Zerg I feel pressure ALWAYS. Zergs don't give their opponent a break when in the highest league, constantly throwing me off my macro game when usually it's the other way around.
I understand my sample is pretty small, but I feel Zergs play a fundamentally different game in Masters league. They are not afraid to be the aggressor and don't feel the need to play your game, setting the tempo themselves.
Honestly, it's kind of inspiring. It really shows how this game can be taken to a whole new level.
This is pretty cool to hear, i have a personal theory that Zerg is the race that can most obviously show player skill. Not saying that i think it takes the most skill, but it's VERY easy to tell the difference between a bad zerg, a decent zerg a good zerg and a great zerg.
The lines of skill for terran i feel can be very muddied, high ratings off of very simple to execute builds that they run every single time no matter what, at first glance they seem like good players, but then you realise how shallow their ability is.
On the flipside you see some absolute genius terran players that just shock and awe you with ridiculous multitasking and amazing gamesense (or sensor towers w/e) ;D
In longer games this is true for all races as more and more skill becomes required to manage the lategame situation (unless toss deathball).
The way I differentiate between 'required' skill at masters level for the average T/Z is with a little (maybe bad) analogy:
Hitting a bullseye, not easy not always going to happen.
For a Timing push teamliquid strategy thread build order Terran they have to hit bullseye once to win.
For the Zerg to hold this push and then win the game, they have to hit bullseye 10 times in a row.
They both require the same skill "can you hit bullseye?" the difference i see is that Zerg has to consistently hit it to win, whereas T only has to manage it once to end the game.
For example, how many times have you seen a Zerg player crush a terran push, only to lose in the next 2-3 minutes to the next push.
This is one of the reasons i have loved watching games on the new community and GSL maps, and the GSTL games in general. Separating the men from the boys, timing pushes can still work but they have to be perfectly executed, and in most of these games the safer bet is to do more strategical pushes + multidrops whilst expanding, which just makes for such action orientated games, that at times the casters can't even get the words out fast enough to describe it.
so much cooler than seeing a 10 year old walk across a 5 second map after being unscoutable due to a patrolling marine at the edge of a base/
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Being creative or being consistent. One of those two things.
I've won multiple games from people that say I'm "cheesing", when in reality I see their build and just build a unique counter.
Terran going 2 rax rush followed by 6 rax expo?
Make 15 drones, do a baneling bust build and continually build lings and banelings. Wait for his CC to lift and his army to move out, attack en masse and just decimate his army and economy with 40 more supply of lings and banelings than he has marines. It works every time because it's creative and they don't see it coming. They just think "I can get an expo up" and expand because they're used to being able to. Since I know exactly what they are doing, it isn't much of an all-in but more of a counter.
Zerg slightly ahead in drone count, slightly behind on roaches? Suicide rush and kill their queens, kill multiple drones. Rebuild a roach force while doing so so he cannot counter attack. Build two overseers and contaminate their structures. Continue roach production, outproducing him by leaps and bounds and making him choose between drones or roaches (they always choose drones). Attack, win with superior numbers, get called out on "cheese" when in actuality you just understand they're forced into a bad position and you can win on either option.
Other games I win by being eerily consistent.
Having trouble with 4 gate? If you get all your injects, get that extra queen for tanking/damage/transfusion and those spine crawlers up in time to stop the warp gate, you'll find you can stop it every time regardless of their zealot/stalker ratio.... and with minimal lings. Then you're ahead.
Have trouble with that pesky void ray rush? Well, if you're consistently getting 3 or 4 queens in ZvP, you no longer will and can't be surprised by it. Ta-da! A simple consistent addition to your play eliminates an entire strategy that Toss players use to win in diamond quickly and doesn't hurt your normal game!
Have trouble with baneling busts as Terran? Set up your wall so that they can't bust it down. Wall off with two barracks and a factory or something until you are expanding. This doesn't hurt you at all, yet... you've elminated a strong strategy.
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Its the feeling of they have way more stuff than me at all times that is overwhelming.
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On February 11 2011 04:42 Overswarm wrote:
Being creative or being consistent. One of those two things.
I've won multiple games from people that say I'm "cheesing", when in reality I see their build and just build a unique counter.
Terran going 2 rax rush followed by 6 rax expo?
Make 15 drones, do a baneling bust build and continually build lings and banelings. Wait for his CC to lift and his army to move out, attack en masse and just decimate his army and economy with 40 more supply of lings and banelings than he has marines. It works every time because it's creative and they don't see it coming. They just think "I can get an expo up" and expand because they're used to being able to. Since I know exactly what they are doing, it isn't much of an all-in but more of a counter.
Zerg slightly ahead in drone count, slightly behind on roaches? Suicide rush and kill their queens, kill multiple drones. Rebuild a roach force while doing so so he cannot counter attack. Build two overseers and contaminate their structures. Continue roach production, outproducing him by leaps and bounds and making him choose between drones or roaches (they always choose drones). Attack, win with superior numbers, get called out on "cheese" when in actuality you just understand they're forced into a bad position and you can win on either option.
Other games I win by being eerily consistent.
Having trouble with 4 gate? If you get all your injects, get that extra queen for tanking/damage/transfusion and those spine crawlers up in time to stop the warp gate, you'll find you can stop it every time regardless of their zealot/stalker ratio.... and with minimal lings. Then you're ahead.
Have trouble with that pesky void ray rush? Well, if you're consistently getting 3 or 4 queens in ZvP, you no longer will and can't be surprised by it. Ta-da! A simple consistent addition to your play eliminates an entire strategy that Toss players use to win in diamond quickly and doesn't hurt your normal game!
Have trouble with baneling busts as Terran? Set up your wall so that they can't bust it down. Wall off with two barracks and a factory or something until you are expanding. This doesn't hurt you at all, yet... you've elminated a strong strategy.
wow thanks alot!
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On February 08 2011 07:26 ayababa wrote:there needs to be a terran version of this ... should i make one. yes i might.
are we question talkers? Yes, yes we are.
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I'd also like to add to this...
A lot of Masters League players have strategies that shouldn't work, but do by surprise. The "clever" plays. Some of them they have really well figured out and can have a lot of wiggle room, but most are things like a terran going one rax to dual starport banshee rush (and getting them out by 6 minutes!)
You'll lose if you just "play standard", so scouting is important. But once you experience these kinds of non-standard plays, you'll realize several things about them. Terran going 2 rax with no gas? You have an idea of what he's doing. Terran walling off with 2 depots and 1 rax, getting 2 early gas? You have an idea of what he's doing.
It's important to have one or two "counter cheese" strategies of your own that are more indepth than "build drones and counter". While you COULD get multiple queens, expand and make 6 spore crawlers when you see a banshee rush coming.... that has a lot of room for error, and you're eliminating the weakness the Terran has. Specifically, lack of a powerful force. By doing all that to "prepare" for his eventual tech jump, you're telling him "it's okay to only have 5 marines defending your main until you get your banshees out".
Yes, you could easily defend against a banshee rush with queens and spores and have a kickass economy. But now you're just in a different situation, just as bad; he's got tech, you've got economy. You've put yourself back in the original situation, except now you're committed to a path.
Instead of playing it uber safe all the time, take a win when you see one.
Terran gets 2 gas and builds 2 depots to wall? Baneling bust him. Drone to 15, build baneling nest at the same time as your first inject, spend all your gas on banelings and all your $ on lings. When you run out of gas, bust with the banelings and kill his workers. You just won the game!
A lot of zergs have this "I'm weak" approach; they turtle until they can produce tons of units all at once, and don't realize what options they have.
You know what terran would do if they were going into a game thinking "I'm going to go marine/tank and fast expand" and then saw you fast teching to broodlords? He'd forego the expansion and just kill you. Because he could do that.
A lot of zerg players refuse to do this and it ends up hurting them in the long run; they let people cheese them and walk all over them because they're not used to just taking a win when their opponent plays poorly.
You'd be surprised how many protoss, even at masters level, won't make more than one zealot and one sentry prior to warp gate finishing. Then they get confused when you put an OL over their ramp and attack with roaches, or just baneling through the zealot.
Take a win when you see one.
Most importantly, know HOW you're going to do it in advance.
"Oh, I see two depots at their ramp, two gas, and they are building their tech structures away from the ramp" should allow you to do your baneling bust build without much thought.
I use baneling bust as an example a lot, but there are many varieties you can think up.
Is protoss expanding with cannons and stalkers faster than they should?
What happens if you just make lings? Tons and tons of lings? You can support 5 hatcheries of lings off of two bases and get a ton of lings very, very fast. Why not just overswarm them? :B
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I actually find that masters zergs are by far the least afraid to be aggressive.
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Im 2900 diamond zerg and yesterday the automatch hooked me up with a master terran. So I am glad to know I have a shot at getting a promotion in the near future. My win ratio has gone up the last couple of weeks and reason is that I started to play more aggressively. I no longer fear the opponent as much as I did a couple of months ago so I would say confidence is also an important characteristic of any master player. When I play against lower ranked players I notice that they are often intimidated by ranks and generaly have the feeling that the opponent they are playing against is so good that they probably have a counter for whatever they are doing. This sometimes make their game worse than it should have been.
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aside from mechanics (larva inject, etc) knowing how to react to what you scout is pretty important i'd say. also, know when to take another expansion
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On February 11 2011 10:54 koveras wrote:
Im 2900 diamond zerg and yesterday the automatch hooked me up with a master terran. So I am glad to know I have a shot at getting a promotion in the near future. My win ratio has gone up the last couple of weeks and reason is that I started to play more aggressively. I no longer fear the opponent as much as I did a couple of months ago so I would say confidence is also an important characteristic of any master player. When I play against lower ranked players I notice that they are often intimidated by ranks and generaly have the feeling that the opponent they are playing against is so good that they probably have a counter for whatever they are doing. This sometimes make their game worse than it should have been.
This is so key. I truly feel that the real difference between Masters league and everyone else is fear. When gold and plat and any player plays, they are constantly worrying about reacting and not dying. Zergs in Masters league say "no, screw that, I'M going to be the one to dictate the game. I'M going to make YOU worry about what I have." It's a completely different mindset and it is brutal and effective.
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On February 11 2011 04:04 ShinyGerbil wrote:
Idunno saracen...
I miss injects (usually not too much in early game but sometimes)
I get supply blocked (at 26 i swear like 30% of games it's so sad)
My upgrades are late as hell, I have played 30 minute games at 0-0-0
I usually clump my overlords behind my natural because i'm scared to lose them
I only sometimes have the xel'nagas but I forget them frequently with stuff like scouting lings
I also commonly get caught way off guard by opponent's tech switches and army compositions that I didn't scout
And finally my micro is pretty subpar (1 control group, attack move, yadda yadda)
But I'm a master zerg ^_^. I'd say the biggest things you need to know are to be able to keep all these things in mind, not necessarily execute them perfectly. Oh and you need to drone hard as shit and keep your money low.
tl;dr master zerg doesn't take any kind of pro skill, just predict when he probably won't attack you and drone really really hard at those times, and then spend your money (macro hatches galore!) and you'll get there.
LOL I was going to say something along these lines. Basically, improving with zerg is all about doing all the things you know you should be doing, plus gaining experience about other races' builds from playing a lot of games so that you can react properly. A plat zerg and a masters zerg both know that spreading creep is good, and that injecting is really important, but the masters zerg is just better at it. I guarantee that if you made a list of things that you think you need to be doing as zerg, it would be very similar if not identical to that of a masters zerg. Again though, the only difference is that you're worse at doing all the things you need to be doing.
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On February 11 2011 09:24 Overswarm wrote:
A lot of zerg players refuse to do this and it ends up hurting them in the long run; they let people cheese them and walk all over them because they're not used to just taking a win when their opponent plays poorly.
:B
YES! I've had an inordinate amount of success on the ladder by just executing various types of rushes, especially against Protoss. Against Terran I find I can often throw the tempo of their game off just by sending 2 - 4 drones very early to harass their scvs while they try to make a rax.
I can see how doing unexpected things to throw your opponent off can be really successful. A lot of times it doesn't work out, but its surprising how often it does. All of this comes from understanding the game, and predicting your opponent's reactions.
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Early game map control, whether it's the positioning of your lings or overlords or grabbing the towers. The placement / scouting path of your early lings will allow you to drone up or give you the time you need to defend early pressure. In addition, your ability to react to what you scout. The toughest part about playing Z is that you need to worry about what your opponent is doing much more than he worries about your unit composition. Sometimes T and P can get away with playing blind for certain parts of the game, as a Z if you play blind, it's gg. Therefore your ability to adequately scout and react is crucial. Lastly, I'd say knowing your timings. So that if you end up in a situation where you are blind, you can at least make an educated guess as to what to do.
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Great thread, has really made me think about how to improve.
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OP here
rly glad that people post such great tips. I feel like this thread is helping people alot! Please send it to all of your zerg buddies 
I would love to see you post how this thread has improved YOUR gameplay
And to keep you updated, I got to 3000 pts tonight!
<3 from sweden
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IMO zerg is the easiest to understand. They do not have any complicated stuffs like build order losses, refining of builds etc like other races. Their play only revolves around 3 main things: scouting, economy, army. The idea is to scout constantly, get as greedy as possible with your economy, which in turn boost your army production later on.
This is how i improve my zerg from the bottom leagues (silver). I will not talk about the basic mechanics like overlord placements, not getting supply blocked etc. since it's already mentioned. Some of you might not agree to it, but i tend to take things 1 step at a time. You will improve and understand matchups much more if you take the long route =)
Always refer back to replays after every game, they are your best tools to improve. They tell you all the information that you need to know. There are only 2 tabs that are important. Income tab: Check if your economy is keeping up or even better than the enemy's. Army tab: Check if your army value is about the same as the enemy at the point of ENGAGEMENT. If your army value is way lesser than his during engagement, it means you have drone way too much. Always scout in the game, poke up the ramp with your lings to see the structures and their unit compositions. Sac overlords when you cannot infer from the limited information. It is fine if you do not understand what you are scouting. When referring back to replays, look at the limited information that you have scouted from your POV: Gas, strutures, chronoboost, units etc, and compare to their actual tech route. You will learn how to infer better after many games. Just constantly take note of when you can kill them straight up by busting if they go greedy on tech/economy but you do not want to do that until you are have almost perfected your mechanics. Even if you win, take note of timing windows that enemy can exploit and kill you straight up, but they are not good enough to realize that.
You would want to start out with FD's style of droning, lose by over-droning. Get a feel of how much you can drone each game, push your drone production to the limit. If you think you lost by over-droning, please confirm through replays that its not due to other reasons like scouting. For example, theres a huge difference when your ling scout sees the enemy moving out at the bottom at his ramp instead of seeing them only at xel'nega towers. This is also an opportunity to polish up your drone micro. Many battles will happen just at your natural, requiring the need to pull drones to kill them off. Win games by starving them out for now. Go crazy on your expansions. Use this chance to practice your mechanics. Use replays to check out how fast you can get away with your expansion to 3rd base based on the opponent's build. For ZvZ, it's a bit different. I would approach this match up from the opposite direction. Unlike other matchups, army that you spawn can actually be used for attacking. So it's fine to overproduce you army and squeeze in the production of drones here and there based on what u scout. Cut down your army production each game and increase the number of drones. The idea is to get a feel when you can kill them straight up or just play the most economical way possible when you want to.
After you feel you have polished up your mechanics, you can try to start playing more aggressively. For me i like to produce way more on army, as a larger army is more cost efficient which in turn save more larvae in the long run to power drone. I am more comfortable with the idea of using the whole map as my battlefield, able to kill my opponent once they move out instead of waiting for my units to spawn and fight beside my natural. I feel it's a safer way to play this way on ladder too. However it requires a bit more game sense in a way, since you need to predict and produce your units at the 2nd last min instead of the last min in order to keep up with economy.
Lastly, you would want to figure out your own style of playing. Which units you are more comfortable with, playing passively or aggressively. I find it more fun and effective to keep your options open and play unpredictably. Adapt to your opponent, kill him straight up when he's playing greedily. Mind f**k him by over-droning like a mad man when you play him the next time instead of the usual aggressive play-style.
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On February 11 2011 04:25 Venomsflame wrote:
So far a lot of good information in this thread. I play in high diamond(Protoss mostly although I offrace every now and then and sometimes go random), and I find the difference between Masters Zerg and diamond Zerg TREMENDOUS. I have beaten many Protoss and Terran Masters, but I think I'm something like 1/9 against Masters Zergs. One thing I notice is against Zerg players my own skill it is a battle of unit composition and a macro race that ends through one or two mostly even pushes. However, when I play against a Masters Zerg I feel pressure ALWAYS. Zergs don't give their opponent a break when in the highest league, constantly throwing me off my macro game when usually it's the other way around.
I understand my sample is pretty small, but I feel Zergs play a fundamentally different game in Masters league. They are not afraid to be the aggressor and don't feel the need to play your game, setting the tempo themselves.
Honestly, it's kind of inspiring. It really shows how this game can be taken to a whole new level.
I remember before I was in master league I was on a really good run ZvP like 15-2 or something like that. Then they started putting me against master league tosses and things changed ridiculously quick. When a diamond toss went forge fast expand I was thrilled, but when the master league guys did it I was getting outdroned... so I would have to say the difference between diamond and master toss is macro macro macro.
I think the biggest thing for me getting to master was scouting. When I was low diamond my scouting was terrible and I didn't really know what I was looking for anyway. After watching all of the Mr. Bitter VOD's my ZvP scouting is insanely good (and I usually win ZvP). However, I have no idea what to look for when scouting T and my ZvT is VERY bad.... if you could have different ratings for different matchups I'd probably be 3000 master ZvP and 3000 Diamond ZvT honestly.
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Not master but Always balance your mineral and gas. Try to always have 1000mineral and 1000gas even if it's late game wtih 5+ base.
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i wish there was a list of timings for zvp and zvt. as far as i know there isn't, but could anyone make a quick list?
like, when does 6 gate pressure come if they went 3gate expand, when to overlord scout in the beginning (to see what route they're going), when to expect a 4rax all in after scouting it, 2base banshee, blue flame hellion, etc.
these to me seem like the real difference between diamond and masters. zerg is all about staying alive and if you dont know the timings (which is what makes scouting useful) then you will die.
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A master zerg is better at chosing when to build drones, and when to build army.
That's basically it.
Build army as needed. Otherwise, build drones.
I have low APM, low skill. But, I manage to get two bases saturated pretty well most games.
When watching diamond replays, it's depressing how often they end up playing a fair bit of the game with two bases, and .. somewhere between 18 and 28 drones. On two bases. Without being aggressive. Just ... being safe from whatever could maybe happen.
A master zerg knows that yeah, it's good to have 32-48 drones mining minerals from two bases. And manage to do so quite early in the game.
That's ... mostly it. Oh, and I used to not be able to do so ... when I was stuck in diamond.
Underdroning combined with too defensive a mindset is mostly the problem.
If you are making an army, you should use it as zerg. It's nearly always better for a zerg to kill off his whole army, if he kills off the whole army of the opponent as the same time. T and P get stronger in stronger balls. Zergs like surround. If you are going to mass up an army to defend, and you note he is not attacking ... then you need to attack, because you are now behind since you were building army and not economy. At least pressure some.
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this is more zvt related. At masters lvl I see mostly 2 raxx or helion openings(reactor or blue flame) into expansion. But that doesn't mean the Terran opponent can't still open banshee, open tank/marine, open 15 CC. They have lots and lots of opening is my point .
so your a Zerg , IMO standard opening consist of always finding a way to get that hatchery down ASAP. sometimes 14gas/14pool is needed, mostly its 14 or 15 hatch tho. Your real opening comes after these Pre-openings IMO
- helions, pressure back with roaches instead of just dropping static D and playing defensive
- 2 raxx, get a decent amount of lings, don't try to break his main but hold his natural and delay expansion as long as possible, maybe force a All in if you delay it long enough.
- 1/1/1 banshees, pressure with enough banes to knock down a supply depot + enough lings to clean up the 4-5 marines at his wall and a few workers.
these are ways to put pressure back on a terrans opener instead of just sitting back defensively and defending their opening. They will force the Meta game you want in the mid game and make terrans get unit comps they or extra defense they did not plan, hence not allowing them to execute their cookie cutter builds perfectly. Or the terran is simply not ready for it and dies.
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EPT
