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[R] characteristics of a Master Zerg - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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DeCiBle
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States102 Posts
February 07 2011 23:19 GMT
#21
A few things I'd like to add:
1) good overlord spread
2) pre-emptive unit positioning for flanking incoming attacks
3) almost omni-present awareness of the map at all times
4) creative play, for unexpected tech switches (abusing the larvae mechanic late-game)
"You're a Scottish Noble Ribbon, and I am William fuckn Wallace" - ROOT.CatZ
mepho
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada9 Posts
February 08 2011 00:00 GMT
#22
1) Queen Inject timings

2) Macro - queen injections are worthless unless you are able to spend your money efficiently (time yourself, get the fastest 200/200 specific mixed army vs a computer... do it again beat your time)

3) Scouting / Map awareness - figure out enemy composition, don't be caught with your pants down. Sacrifice an overlord, leave a zergling near his ramp, find out when he is taking his next expo.
For me I still need to work on this... creep spread, ovi spread (this will help your drone production during early/mid game). If you know his army composition/position, you should know what units are needed or if your safe to drone.

4) Army position and movement, try not to have a stationary army go kill rocks, go harass, fake an attack. Think of your army power depreciating the more they stay still doing nothing, because they could all be drones.

5) Play games
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
February 08 2011 00:58 GMT
#23
    Macro
  • Never miss injects, especially early game.
  • Never get supply blocked.
  • Know when to take your gas (don't take it too early unless you plan on doing something with it, e.g. mutas, because it'll really hurt your drone count).
  • Know when/how to drone.
  • Always be on time with key upgrades (e.g. ling speed, baneling speed) and tech structures (e.g. roach warren), which comes with having a good build order.
    Scouting
  • Spread your overlords, especially along drop paths.
  • Spread your lings, one in front of his natural, one at each watchtower, and one at possible expos.
  • Always know where you're putting your first overlords (around his main to sac for scouting, above your nat to check for cheese, behind his nat to check for expo timing).
  • Always keep tabs on his army size and composition (with overlords, lings, changelings).
  • Know how to read your opponent based on limited information and how to react accordingly (if I don't see a constantly chrono'd warpgate and a zealot + 2 sentry + probe pushing out with a pylon at the nat, I know it's 3 warpgate expand and I can drone a ton before I need to make units).
    Micro
  • Always spread creep.
  • Don't be dumb about engagements (engage on creep, wait for reinforcements before you engage if your army is smaller, keep your army together and attack at once, avoid attacking into chokes).
Haggis`NZ
Profile Joined November 2009
New Zealand18 Posts
February 08 2011 01:23 GMT
#24
On February 08 2011 03:42 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Nothing, MMR gets you in masters, MMR is only controlled by how often you win and again whom, not how you win.

This whole myth that people have in leagues have some different fundamental play-style is pretty unfounded. It's not like the system promotes you when you learnt to scout, only when your MMR is high enough, and probably also a random factor.

You can get to masters on macro, awareness, micro, combination of both, being an excellent cheeser, maphacks, multitasking...

2% is also a pretty arbitrary number, could have been 2.5, could have been 1.5, could have been 1.


really this dumb or just troll?
Acridice
Profile Joined December 2010
United States298 Posts
February 08 2011 01:42 GMT
#25
On February 08 2011 03:42 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Nothing, MMR gets you in masters, MMR is only controlled by how often you win and again whom, not how you win.

This whole myth that people have in leagues have some different fundamental play-style is pretty unfounded. It's not like the system promotes you when you learnt to scout, only when your MMR is high enough, and probably also a random factor.

You can get to masters on macro, awareness, micro, combination of both, being an excellent cheeser, maphacks, multitasking...

2% is also a pretty arbitrary number, could have been 2.5, could have been 1.5, could have been 1.


I think he's just bitter because he's stuck in silver.
The superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions. - Confucius
eth3n
Profile Joined August 2010
718 Posts
February 08 2011 01:50 GMT
#26
On February 08 2011 09:58 Saracen wrote:
    Macro
  • Never miss injects, especially early game.
  • Never get supply blocked.
  • Know when to take your gas (don't take it too early unless you plan on doing something with it, e.g. mutas, because it'll really hurt your drone count).
  • Know when/how to drone.
  • Always be on time with key upgrades (e.g. ling speed, baneling speed) and tech structures (e.g. roach warren), which comes with having a good build order.
    Scouting
  • Spread your overlords, especially along drop paths.
  • Spread your lings, one in front of his natural, one at each watchtower, and one at possible expos.
  • Always know where you're putting your first overlords (around his main to sac for scouting, above your nat to check for cheese, behind his nat to check for expo timing).
  • Always keep tabs on his army size and composition (with overlords, lings, changelings).
  • Know how to read your opponent based on limited information and how to react accordingly (if I don't see a constantly chrono'd warpgate and a zealot + 2 sentry + probe pushing out with a pylon at the nat, I know it's 3 warpgate expand and I can drone a ton before I need to make units).
    Micro
  • Always spread creep.
  • Don't be dumb about engagements (engage on creep, wait for reinforcements before you engage if your army is smaller, keep your army together and attack at once, avoid attacking into chokes).

Its funny, with high master/semi-pro zerg streamers it always seems to be their creativity that wins the day (with the obvious exception of zvz, and grack, that standard mfer), not to say that your list isn't what a zerg should aspire to do saracen.
Idra Potter: I don't use avada kedavra because i have self-respect.
Hummingb1rd
Profile Joined December 2010
United States97 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-08 02:00:52
February 08 2011 01:58 GMT
#27
Personally, being a masters zerg, I agree with eth3n. Creativity, along with gamesense, is the way to go with zerg. My mechanics are subpar, averaging around 70-80 APM, but effective usage of my limited APM, along with superior gamesense and strategy allows zergs to rack up wins.
imareaver3
Profile Joined June 2010
United States906 Posts
February 08 2011 03:11 GMT
#28
On February 08 2011 10:50 eth3n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2011 09:58 Saracen wrote:
    Macro
  • Never miss injects, especially early game.
  • Never get supply blocked.
  • Know when to take your gas (don't take it too early unless you plan on doing something with it, e.g. mutas, because it'll really hurt your drone count).
  • Know when/how to drone.
  • Always be on time with key upgrades (e.g. ling speed, baneling speed) and tech structures (e.g. roach warren), which comes with having a good build order.
    Scouting
  • Spread your overlords, especially along drop paths.
  • Spread your lings, one in front of his natural, one at each watchtower, and one at possible expos.
  • Always know where you're putting your first overlords (around his main to sac for scouting, above your nat to check for cheese, behind his nat to check for expo timing).
  • Always keep tabs on his army size and composition (with overlords, lings, changelings).
  • Know how to read your opponent based on limited information and how to react accordingly (if I don't see a constantly chrono'd warpgate and a zealot + 2 sentry + probe pushing out with a pylon at the nat, I know it's 3 warpgate expand and I can drone a ton before I need to make units).
    Micro
  • Always spread creep.
  • Don't be dumb about engagements (engage on creep, wait for reinforcements before you engage if your army is smaller, keep your army together and attack at once, avoid attacking into chokes).

Its funny, with high master/semi-pro zerg streamers it always seems to be their creativity that wins the day (with the obvious exception of zvz, and grack, that standard mfer), not to say that your list isn't what a zerg should aspire to do saracen.


I'd expect that to be because a top-level Z player does these things so automatically that they can afford to focus mots of their effort on strategy.
imareaver3
Profile Joined June 2010
United States906 Posts
February 08 2011 03:11 GMT
#29
On February 08 2011 12:11 imareaver3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2011 10:50 eth3n wrote:
On February 08 2011 09:58 Saracen wrote:
    Macro
  • Never miss injects, especially early game.
  • Never get supply blocked.
  • Know when to take your gas (don't take it too early unless you plan on doing something with it, e.g. mutas, because it'll really hurt your drone count).
  • Know when/how to drone.
  • Always be on time with key upgrades (e.g. ling speed, baneling speed) and tech structures (e.g. roach warren), which comes with having a good build order.
    Scouting
  • Spread your overlords, especially along drop paths.
  • Spread your lings, one in front of his natural, one at each watchtower, and one at possible expos.
  • Always know where you're putting your first overlords (around his main to sac for scouting, above your nat to check for cheese, behind his nat to check for expo timing).
  • Always keep tabs on his army size and composition (with overlords, lings, changelings).
  • Know how to read your opponent based on limited information and how to react accordingly (if I don't see a constantly chrono'd warpgate and a zealot + 2 sentry + probe pushing out with a pylon at the nat, I know it's 3 warpgate expand and I can drone a ton before I need to make units).
    Micro
  • Always spread creep.
  • Don't be dumb about engagements (engage on creep, wait for reinforcements before you engage if your army is smaller, keep your army together and attack at once, avoid attacking into chokes).

Its funny, with high master/semi-pro zerg streamers it always seems to be their creativity that wins the day (with the obvious exception of zvz, and grack, that standard mfer), not to say that your list isn't what a zerg should aspire to do saracen.


I'd expect that to be because a top-level Z player does these things so automatically that they can afford to focus most of their effort on strategy.

TheRealzz
Profile Joined November 2010
150 Posts
February 08 2011 04:15 GMT
#30
I printed Saracen's advice. Ty.
One-base play is aggression ?
Juice303
Profile Joined December 2010
United States42 Posts
February 08 2011 04:45 GMT
#31
Execution of Zergs key mechanics is what separates diamond and masters IMO. Unit Control(mobility/micro), scouting(ovies,lings,creep), reaction and timing (injects, droning, supply, correct counters)
and probably the most important two aspects a master zerg understands is a strong economy and great macro.
Juicey Juice!
Mythol
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden24 Posts
February 08 2011 15:17 GMT
#32
OP here

Thanks for all the great posts :3
lets keep em coming and get players into masters!
"We cant stop here, this is bat-country!"
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
February 08 2011 15:34 GMT
#33
One important thing is recognizing the importance of drops and nydus worms. Too many players think they're used for gimmicky stuff when in actuality they have legitimate mid/late game purposes that are very important and should be used well. Especially ZvP the use of drops to snipe tech and/or buy time for more corruptors is very important and nydus worms can be used to abuse the immobility of Protoss armies.

Too many people think nydus networks are only meant for islands or in base worms and that all drops have to be doom drops.

I guess to say it more generically a Master level zerg needs to understand the importance of buying time and abusing immobility rather than trying to win with brute force (which doesn't work when P/T's get close to perfect macro).
Logo
Bitters
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada303 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-08 16:18:05
February 08 2011 16:07 GMT
#34
On February 09 2011 00:34 Logo wrote:
One important thing is recognizing the importance of drops and nydus worms. Too many players think they're used for gimmicky stuff when in actuality they have legitimate mid/late game purposes that are very important and should be used well. Especially ZvP the use of drops to snipe tech and/or buy time for more corruptors is very important and nydus worms can be used to abuse the immobility of Protoss armies.

Too many people think nydus networks are only meant for islands or in base worms and that all drops have to be doom drops.

I guess to say it more generically a Master level zerg needs to understand the importance of buying time and abusing immobility rather than trying to win with brute force (which doesn't work when P/T's get close to perfect macro).


Not necessarily. I'm a master zerg and very very rarely do I use drops or nydrus. There are more crucial upgrades and other points to focus on (until late game and using them as money dumps).

My addition would be the use of deductive scouting/reasoning. Knowing when you can expand, drone, upgrade tech all rely on scouting and what you take away from it (seeing when it's safe to do so and what tech you should be pursuing). Most know about poking up ramps with lings and pushing in with an overlord at certain times, but looking for more subtle cues provides better information.

Things like where the chronoboosts are going in the early game or what's the second unit out of the gateway and the timing of his second gas.
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-08 16:14:44
February 08 2011 16:13 GMT
#35
On February 08 2011 09:58 Saracen wrote:
    Macro
  • Never miss injects, especially early game.
  • Never get supply blocked.
  • Know when to take your gas (don't take it too early unless you plan on doing something with it, e.g. mutas, because it'll really hurt your drone count).
  • Know when/how to drone.
  • Always be on time with key upgrades (e.g. ling speed, baneling speed) and tech structures (e.g. roach warren), which comes with having a good build order.
    Scouting
  • Spread your overlords, especially along drop paths.
  • Spread your lings, one in front of his natural, one at each watchtower, and one at possible expos.
  • Always know where you're putting your first overlords (around his main to sac for scouting, above your nat to check for cheese, behind his nat to check for expo timing).
  • Always keep tabs on his army size and composition (with overlords, lings, changelings).
  • Know how to read your opponent based on limited information and how to react accordingly (if I don't see a constantly chrono'd warpgate and a zealot + 2 sentry + probe pushing out with a pylon at the nat, I know it's 3 warpgate expand and I can drone a ton before I need to make units).
    Micro
  • Always spread creep.
  • Don't be dumb about engagements (engage on creep, wait for reinforcements before you engage if your army is smaller, keep your army together and attack at once, avoid attacking into chokes).


Of course all those things people post in this thread gonna help to get in masters but they does not mean you can't be in master's w/o them.

Master players miss injects all the time (I don't mean crucial first 7min injects), they poorly spread creep (look at some GSL players who does not know that creep exists), getting supply blocked, etc, etc...

Btw I don't disagree with you Saracen, just you can't define what you need to be in masters.

Masters are just a little bit better at everything compared to diamonds.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
Gravan
Profile Joined October 2010
59 Posts
February 08 2011 16:24 GMT
#36
As a Terran player, the first thing I noticed when I climbed the ladder (somewhat recently went up around 300-400~ points) is that the better Zerg players understand how to get ahead.

All decent Zergs can fast expand, which is the first step to getting ahead. It is only the better ones that really know how to capitalize on it. For example, when I know I'm playing against a good Zerg player, I'm constantly worried that if I leave him alone for even a short amount of time, he'll be unreachable ahead of me in base/army count.
Dominator1370
Profile Joined November 2010
United States111 Posts
February 08 2011 16:43 GMT
#37
On February 09 2011 01:13 Alpina wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2011 09:58 Saracen wrote:
    Macro
  • Never miss injects, especially early game.
  • Never get supply blocked.
  • Know when to take your gas (don't take it too early unless you plan on doing something with it, e.g. mutas, because it'll really hurt your drone count).
  • Know when/how to drone.
  • Always be on time with key upgrades (e.g. ling speed, baneling speed) and tech structures (e.g. roach warren), which comes with having a good build order.
    Scouting
  • Spread your overlords, especially along drop paths.
  • Spread your lings, one in front of his natural, one at each watchtower, and one at possible expos.
  • Always know where you're putting your first overlords (around his main to sac for scouting, above your nat to check for cheese, behind his nat to check for expo timing).
  • Always keep tabs on his army size and composition (with overlords, lings, changelings).
  • Know how to read your opponent based on limited information and how to react accordingly (if I don't see a constantly chrono'd warpgate and a zealot + 2 sentry + probe pushing out with a pylon at the nat, I know it's 3 warpgate expand and I can drone a ton before I need to make units).
    Micro
  • Always spread creep.
  • Don't be dumb about engagements (engage on creep, wait for reinforcements before you engage if your army is smaller, keep your army together and attack at once, avoid attacking into chokes).


Of course all those things people post in this thread gonna help to get in masters but they does not mean you can't be in master's w/o them.

Master players miss injects all the time (I don't mean crucial first 7min injects), they poorly spread creep (look at some GSL players who does not know that creep exists), getting supply blocked, etc, etc...

Btw I don't disagree with you Saracen, just you can't define what you need to be in masters.

Masters are just a little bit better at everything compared to diamonds.

It's exceedingly unlikely that every player in Masters is better at everything than ever player in Diamond. It would seem extremely likely, then, that some things are more valuable than others. As I understood this thread, it was more of an inquiry into which things are the most important traits to get one into Masters, as opposed to a list of everything that's good.
artosisporn
Profile Joined February 2011
5 Posts
February 08 2011 16:45 GMT
#38
has the ability to stop 4gate
apalemorning
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada509 Posts
February 08 2011 17:30 GMT
#39
On February 09 2011 01:45 artosisporn wrote:
has the ability to stop 4gate

LOL. depressingly true. everytime i see a 4gate i think to myself "free win".
immortal/roach is pretty good against stalkers
tskarzyn
Profile Joined July 2010
United States516 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-08 17:50:50
February 08 2011 17:50 GMT
#40
On February 08 2011 10:42 Acridice wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2011 03:42 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Nothing, MMR gets you in masters, MMR is only controlled by how often you win and again whom, not how you win.

This whole myth that people have in leagues have some different fundamental play-style is pretty unfounded. It's not like the system promotes you when you learnt to scout, only when your MMR is high enough, and probably also a random factor.

You can get to masters on macro, awareness, micro, combination of both, being an excellent cheeser, maphacks, multitasking...

2% is also a pretty arbitrary number, could have been 2.5, could have been 1.5, could have been 1.


I think he's just bitter because he's stuck in silver.


Actually his statement seems pretty accurate. Some guys in masters have great mechanics, some guys have lousy mechanics and 60 apm. Some guys are relentless with their scouting, others almost never scout but compensate with better game sense. Some guys have great micro, other guys have shitty micro but have stronger macro and great unit comps. Some guys are pretty mediocre all around but have a few very solid builds and pushes that are much harder to defend than they are to execute (applies more to masters toss/terran than zerg). And yes, there are some people that probably have maphacks which would make getting into masters very, very easy.
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