EPT[D/H] The end of Supply Depots? - Page 6
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
| ||
|
Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
Gotta love these 100% theorycraft 0% reality threads that proves mules are completely overpowered in a perfect world where the opponent never attacks. Seriously OP, what league are you in? The funniest thing is probably the people taking this thread seriously and shouting "I knew mules were OP!" A command center takes 400 minerals and 90 seconds to build and it takes another 150 minerals and 35 seconds to morph an OC. How are you going to get the minerals to make units? You know, as not to die immediately. And if you're building units, how are you going to keep up with supply building 400 mineral 90 second supply depots? I'm looking forward to your replays :DDDDDDDDDD PS. I see OP is a platinum Protoss, I hope you play some TvP at your level and rage at how every Toss rolls you with 4-gate while you're building CC's and theorycraft  | ||
|
goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
I'd like to see a replay of this working against someone with more than 20 synaptic connections. Seriously. You want to build command centers? I'll build ten lings, kill -all- of your small army, kill your mules as they land, force your CC's to lift, follow them around no matter where they go, put lings in every expansion to force you to land far away from the mineral line, kill those CC's when they get scouted by those lings, etc, etc. This could work against low league players, or people who turtle all day long, or those with severe brain damage. What are you going to defend with? Marines? Built with the minerals you got from high fives and unicorns? You're dumping them on CC's. One marine a second....every minute you can spam a 60 marine hit squad This pretty much sums up the entire thread. You're all being deluded by math. Terran can't pump 60 marines in a minute, unless he has a stupid amount of rax/reactors. If you're spamming rax/marines, you're not spamming OC's to get mules. You will die in the first ten minutes, using this build, against anyone besides The Scarecrow from The Wizard of Oz. | ||
|
Cerebrate.Monthly
United States21 Posts
As people have mentioned, it won't work in mirror situations and even in most TvZ or TvP unless you are considering mass OCs as a mid-game/late idea while playing standard open but that is still a huge timing window you opened up for yourself. Cute idea, but I'll hold back on stating that it's game changing until there's some actual replays (though TL asked for replays in general for posts of this nature). | ||
|
Msrobinson
United States138 Posts
It is interesting, where in the mid-game you could use extra orbital commands to maximize mining potential, but early game, you need supply depots. You can't stay above the supply cap with only command centers. | ||
|
etceteraetcetera
United States38 Posts
If one can put this to use in the MIDGAME while turtling vigorously, this could be very cool and probably really stupid. The biggest problem would be then keeping up production with this insane income. As someone else said, 60 marines every minute is not exactly viable. But with this, especially against zerg, you can prepare a huge midgame push to end the game, because everyone knows terran hates late game vs zerg. And yeah, I'm a zerg player, so don't take all of this as great knowledge. Just adding potential theory for others to test out. | ||
|
SCDebaser
34 Posts
| ||
|
HTX
Germany265 Posts
More solid would be to use it as a long term strategy to build up your army, expand and go every 5 depots for a new CC. After getting to 2 base and 4 CC you can stop SCV production and free to spend all your money on army and CCs. Thanks for the great idea! edit: 2000 D btw | ||
|
Cyclon
United States99 Posts
| ||
|
itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
| ||
|
itzjohnny
62 Posts
| ||
|
ledarsi
United States475 Posts
It seems that it is always better to expand aggressively using your orbital commands than it is to leave them in your main and use them for mules. You already have the infrastructure. SCV's will always be the bulk of your income, although if you manage to take the entire map, OC's give you the ability to mine one of those expansions out very rapidly, and move to a different base and proceed to mine that one out with mules. The best way to utilize such a base is to use a command center, no upgrade, with the Neosteel Frame upgrade, and use exactly 10 scvs and focus all your mules on that base. If it gets hairy, load up the scv's, lift off, and leave the mules to die. There is little to no reason to build an in-base orbital command, unless you intend to expand with it pretty soon. This sort of orbital command ownage comes into play once you have map-owned someone. Trying to force the issue and making in-base OC's is weak. You will get rolled by someone who makes troops with all that money you sunk into command centers. You cannot depend on mules for all your income. However, if you naturally expand and end up with a ton of orbital commands, having the entire map as a terran is much more powerful than it is with other races in terms of your income. Zerg's endgame is stronger due to increased production power with more hatcheries, and protoss' is stronger just because their units are suited for efficient end game masses. | ||
|
windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Really this should die to someone who scouts even a little. This is lie a P making an in base Nexus, yeah you may get double probe production and yeah, you can chronobost more stuff but its such a huge investment that it leaves you too vulnerable. Of course, if this goes unscouted and/or unanswered this will pay off, but its the same as early double expanding,a huge risk that may pay off against a passive opponent. | ||
|
TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On December 02 2010 17:12 30to1 wrote: Mules Mules are incredible. So incredible that I think they may legitimately break the game if used to their fullest potential. When Huk was on the Day9 Daily a week or two ago, he was talking about Mule issues too. Apparently some non-terran pro players are beginning to have problems in the late game because terran can continue to call down Mules instead of building supply consuming SCVs; allowing terran to devote much more supply to their army. If what you have suggested would be possible, even only to a small degree, it could give terran a HUGE advantage in supply-maxed battles. Even if you could cut SCVs in half, that's possibly an extra 30 supply to your army in the late game. I'm interested to see how this turns out. I really hope blizzard changes Mules to consume supply though, the current system as you correctly pointed out is broken. | ||
|
michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
14CC is not efficient for mass CC build. In fact, with ideal timing, I don't think you should even start your 2nd cc until your first OC starts at 16 supply. Then, instead of going double rax or gas, get your 2nd (and possibly 3rd and 4th). in team games, this is really good and a lot of fun. Might sit down and try to iron out some kind of build order in a bit. For just massing pure marines, the only issue I've really been having is whether to build a rax or OC at time X. Should be some simple math though. In the games I've been playing, I do something like: standard opener, but instead of gas, I save for 2nd CC. I rush 4 CC's while maintaining constant marine production from 1 barracks, cut scv production at 16 completely, then just build CC's and Barracks throughout the game. I move OC's to gold's or islands or whenever and I just pump marines. And my army of 184 max upped marines is pretty good 20 minutes in the game. -On a funny note, in one game I had a gold island completely mined out at the 14 minute mark, when I saw a terran opponent trying to expand there. He must have been like "wtf". In sum, I think this can be completely viable in 1's, but at the least it's sure a lot of fun in big games. | ||
|
Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
Sure it might not ever be a completely viable standard build, but if you play someone that you've played before in ladder and know he doesn't push early, or goes tech heavy, try it out. Marines are so ridiculously useful that your basically never going to be just "suiciding" them unless you're intentionally doing so. Imagine having a typical TvX late macro game, only instead of 60 SCVs, and a 140 supply army, you have 18 SCVs on gas, 4-8 constantly building random buildings and random groups of 30 hellions/marines to do whatever the fark you want with while you still have your normal supply army out battling. And you don't care what happens to that 30 supply group, because you have more minerals than you can possibly use. Now imagine a 2 v 2 ZT vs XX, where your teamate, the T, leaves, you go mass CC with his units while still building normal Z army. Also build an inbase hatch or three in every normal expo and extra queens so you can send a constant stream of zerglings off 9 hatcheries to your opponents base, lol. Imagine 300 strong army of zerglings popping out of your base every 30 seconds, lol. /theory crafting All-in-all, I don't see this being the end of supply depots or anything else drastic, but I definitely do see T late games transforming into mass CC/planetary to eat up minerals and free up supply. | ||
|
goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
I feel that the objective of this is not exactly to break the game with some superb early build as everyone's talking about with why it won't work. Yes, you can get rushed early because you're not building a supply depot. To use this exactly as was stated in the OP is basically.. stupid. stupid as hell. But if you can get past early game with a standard build and then go back to some good ol brood war style and play like everyone's favorite cartoon Franklin the turtle, I feel like this could be viable, especially since everyone knows bunkers don't cost money. If one can put this to use in the MIDGAME while turtling vigorously, this could be very cool and probably really stupid. The biggest problem would be then keeping up production with this insane income. As someone else said, 60 marines every minute is not exactly viable. But with this, especially against zerg, you can prepare a huge midgame push to end the game, because everyone knows terran hates late game vs zerg. And yeah, I'm a zerg player, so don't take all of this as great knowledge. Just adding potential theory for others to test out. I suppose this wouldn't exactly the opener to the build, but in any event, you are still going to have to halt army production to start pumping out 550 mineral/125 second OC's. I don't know about you, but it's not like terrans can just faceroll through the midgame with ten marines, or something. They have to build units, multiple production facilities, etc. to stay alive in the first place. It's not like all the terran players in the world are sitting on 600 minerals in the mid game all the time. The benefits will take a while to come in, as well. There are simply going to be times that you can be crushed, by an opponent with half a brain, because you simply won't have the production facilities to supplement a large force to counter a push that's coming to your base. I also enjoy how nobody has mentioned how hard this would be to actually build in one base/natural. Command centers aren't the same size as a supply depot, and terran armies are pretty immobile, so it's not like you can just put these CC's down at random expansions, the opposing player will just punish you for it. | ||
|
itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
On December 03 2010 01:29 TheToast wrote: When Huk was on the Day9 Daily a week or two ago, he was talking about Mule issues too. Apparently some non-terran pro players are beginning to have problems in the late game because terran can continue to call down Mules instead of building supply consuming SCVs; allowing terran to devote much more supply to their army. If what you have suggested would be possible, even only to a small degree, it could give terran a HUGE advantage in supply-maxed battles. Even if you could cut SCVs in half, that's possibly an extra 30 supply to your army in the late game. I'm interested to see how this turns out. I really hope blizzard changes Mules to consume supply though, the current system as you correctly pointed out is broken. Can't see how this breaks anything since Zerg larva inject overload and the fact that a maxed out Protoss army beats a "normal" maxed out Terran army with mass colossi and psi storm. Not to mention Terran is the slowest at replenishing and reinforcing their armies. Already there are complaints of lategame woes against Zerg from Terran so MULE abuse seems to be a recent solution. Honestly changing the MULE would be tough as it changes the entirety of playing from early to late game. Just like adjusting chronoboosts or larva inject. | ||
|
deji
Estonia46 Posts
TvT I lost, I forgot about 10 marines at the main entrance on Shakuras while he knocked the backdoor down. And I positioned poorly. TvZ I won on Blistering Sands. He scouted me, saw I was turtling hard on just marines, so he went for a baneling bust. The bust did minor damage and I rolled the rest of his army. Game lasted for 11 minutes, at which point I was basically mined out from my main and was setting up to take the natural along with the push. Going for no SCVs and no supply depots obviously doesn't work. But, you may get away with a 2Rax no gas build and THEN start following it up with more barracks and CCs, while producing marines. You want all your resources to go on minerals until you have saturation, then get gas. You do have to produce some depots to keep constant SCV+marine production up, it's not possible otherwise. If you don't overdo it, this build might be possible if your opponent does not go for an early allin type build, like 4Gate or 3Rax. | ||
|
Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On December 03 2010 01:41 Sm3agol wrote: Some of you people need to....ummmmmm, wake up? All you people bashing it are bashing it off of a pure no supply depot, no SCV build conception. If you mix it in gently with a more normal turtlish T build, I think it will do just fine. Obviously this is all still theory-crafting, but I think the concept has massive potential. Just do a more or less standard build, work in another CC or two into a normal build, turtle a bit more than usual, then when you get your massive mineral pile going start massing CCs, rax, marines, hellion, whatever eats through your minerals. Just because you have a crap ton of minerals doesn't mean you won't have any scvs mining gas or w/e. You'll just have a mega-ton of minerals. Build about 10 reactored rax mid-game, and start suiciding groups of 30 marines at his base every minute or so while your more normal army gets up to strength. Sure it might not ever be a completely viable standard build, but if you play someone that you've played before in ladder and know he doesn't push early, or goes tech heavy, try it out. Marines are so ridiculously useful that your basically never going to be just "suiciding" them unless you're intentionally doing so. Imagine having a typical TvX late macro game, only instead of 60 SCVs, and a 140 supply army, you have 18 SCVs on gas, 4-8 constantly building random buildings and random groups of 30 hellions/marines to do whatever the fark you want with while you still have your normal supply army out battling. And you don't care what happens to that 30 supply group, because you have more minerals than you can possibly use. Now imagine a 2 v 2 ZT vs XX, where your teamate, the T, leaves, you go mass CC with his units while still building normal Z army. Also build an inbase hatch or three in every normal expo and extra queens so you can send a constant stream of zerglings off 9 hatcheries to your opponents base, lol. Imagine 300 strong army of zerglings popping out of your base every 30 seconds, lol. /theory crafting All-in-all, I don't see this being the end of supply depots or anything else drastic, but I definitely do see T late games transforming into mass CC/planetary to eat up minerals and free up supply. Lol, people aren't bashing it for the no supply depot, no-scv build alone, they are also bashing it because it implies Terran can just build mass Command Centers and survive. Instead of proposing how OP it would be in a late-game situation, come with some suggestions or replays showing how you get to that point without them killing you with a handful of zealots or lings. The funny thing is that your opponent can take another base for every in-base CC you build, Zergs might even be able to take 2. Maybe you need to wake up? | ||
| ||
