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On November 27 2010 11:33 dementrio wrote:
I also played with the evochamber software after seeing the thread about a 10 pool eco build. I cant remember the exact goal I entered but 10pool, 12queen seems to be the fastest way to get 1 base saturated. What Ive been doing is getting a second queen right after the fist one, it can lay down 3-4 tumors before going to vomit on the second hatch if you decide to get one early (around 20 food). that means that typically you have creep at your nat before the hatch finishes; im not sure how that compares to a hatch first build but I honestly dont think creep is enough of a reason to go hatch first - esp since with an early pool its easier to defend early pressure without crawlers.
if you're interested the build evochamber gave is:
10pool
10overlord
10extractor trick
12queen
I've been wondering about early queens for awhile. I remember Lolimar took early early queen production off of his program. If I recall correctly, 6 pool -> queen was actually the fastest way to saturate a main. Just tried 12 queen in a game and I was really surprised with how fast I got a third.
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On November 27 2010 12:22 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 12:12 Shikyo wrote:Actually, if you do 14pool you won't have 150 min for the Queen right away assuming you did expand at around 16, so you won't get the Queen that much faster. You also lose the mining time from the drone building the pool as well as having slower consecutive drones. ALSO, with 14pool 16hatch, you will have 3 larvae sitting around for a LONG LONG TIME, since you can't make anything after the hatch because you must save for the Queen asap. You're going to waste about 2 full larvae like that. In theory you're correct, in practice it doesn't work like that. I just did a test, and this doesn't seem to even resemble reality. My comments aren't just theory -- they are the analysis of real world tests.
Ehh... It's like 10 seconds, then you will get supply capped right after making your Queen. Guess you only lose 1 larva, but I'm not sure how I'd weigh the supply cap.
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On November 27 2010 12:12 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 12:00 Hurkyl wrote:If you're saying you can get a 12/14 pool without letting your larva count reach 3 and thus become wasteful, that may be true (not sure), but even so, it's still worse for your economy than not cutting (delaying) drones at all. No, it's merely different for your economy. When you build the Spawning Pool is a trade-off. - Early pool = earlier queen = a couple larva
- Late pool = a couple drones hatch earlier = a couple bonus minerals
I'm having great difficulty imagining any case where 20 extra minerals at that point in the game could be worth sacrificing a not much later larva. (And I think you don't even get that much by choosing 16 pool over 14 pool) Actually, if you do 14pool you won't have 150 min for the Queen right away assuming you did expand at around 16, so you won't get the Queen that much faster. You also lose the mining time from the drone building the pool as well as having slower consecutive drones. ALSO, with 14pool 16hatch, you will have 3 larvae sitting around for a LONG LONG TIME, since you can't make anything after the hatch because you must save for the Queen asap. You're going to waste about 2 full larvae like that. In theory you're correct, in practice it doesn't work like that.
I just tested; it simply isn't true.
You have 3 larvae appear when you get are at 125 minerals (25 short of the queen), and 17/18 supply. So it will be spent in 75 minerals time, which appear very quickly from 15 mining drones. A nice way to proceed is to build a drone and then an ovelord, before an extractor and another drone (you will need the extractor now anyway, so it's the 'trick' without the cancel).
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On November 27 2010 12:31 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 12:22 Hurkyl wrote:On November 27 2010 12:12 Shikyo wrote:Actually, if you do 14pool you won't have 150 min for the Queen right away assuming you did expand at around 16, so you won't get the Queen that much faster. You also lose the mining time from the drone building the pool as well as having slower consecutive drones. ALSO, with 14pool 16hatch, you will have 3 larvae sitting around for a LONG LONG TIME, since you can't make anything after the hatch because you must save for the Queen asap. You're going to waste about 2 full larvae like that. In theory you're correct, in practice it doesn't work like that. I just did a test, and this doesn't seem to even resemble reality. My comments aren't just theory -- they are the analysis of real world tests. Ehh... It's like 10 seconds, then you will get supply capped right after making your Queen. Guess you only lose 1 larva, but I'm not sure how I'd weigh the supply cap.
You're not suppply capped after making the queen. 16 hatch, 15 queen, takes you to 17/18. Have you actually tested this?
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On November 27 2010 12:35 Dragar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 12:31 Shikyo wrote:On November 27 2010 12:22 Hurkyl wrote:On November 27 2010 12:12 Shikyo wrote:Actually, if you do 14pool you won't have 150 min for the Queen right away assuming you did expand at around 16, so you won't get the Queen that much faster. You also lose the mining time from the drone building the pool as well as having slower consecutive drones. ALSO, with 14pool 16hatch, you will have 3 larvae sitting around for a LONG LONG TIME, since you can't make anything after the hatch because you must save for the Queen asap. You're going to waste about 2 full larvae like that. In theory you're correct, in practice it doesn't work like that. I just did a test, and this doesn't seem to even resemble reality. My comments aren't just theory -- they are the analysis of real world tests. Ehh... It's like 10 seconds, then you will get supply capped right after making your Queen. Guess you only lose 1 larva, but I'm not sure how I'd weigh the supply cap. You're not suppply capped after making the queen. 16 hatch, 15 queen, takes you to 17/18. Have you actually tested this?
Oh, so you were planning on sitting on 3 larvae at 17/18? You make an overlord, you make a pair of lings, you're supply capped
EDIT: Also doing what you suggested loses to 2 marines but okay
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No, you make an overlord, an extractor and two drones. Then you wait for larvae to spawn.
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I'm curious about hatch-gas-pool --> Lair & Queen. Just building an early hatch for creep/larva seems rather weak since a Queen performs the same tasks better for less money.
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On November 27 2010 12:39 Shikyo wrote:
EDIT: Also doing what you suggested loses to 2 marines but okay
Hatching so early is in trouble against an awful lot of builds. We're not discussing that. We're discussing economy.
Edit: But if you want to feel safer, putting down a spinecrawler at 18/18 and pumping another drone while waiting for the overlord to pop is pretty good, as you can wander it down to the natural immediately. It finishes within a second or two of the hatchery. It would be interesting to see marine timings on this.
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On November 27 2010 12:31 Shikyo wrote:Ehh... It's like 10 seconds, then you will get supply capped right after making your Queen. Guess you only lose 1 larva, but I'm not sure how I'd weigh the supply cap.
I was able to do it with no time wasted at 3 larvae. And it's not a larva wasting supply cap -- as the others said you can build an overlord/zergling, or overlord/extractor/zergling/zergling.
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Well according to this test I did now, 14pool 16hatch -> get to 18 supply with extractor and wait gets 250 minerals by 4 minutes, 16pool 16hatch doing the same thing and waiting at 18 supply gets 360 minerals by 4 minutes, so I'd say that the difference is kind of significant.
On November 27 2010 12:49 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 12:31 Shikyo wrote:Ehh... It's like 10 seconds, then you will get supply capped right after making your Queen. Guess you only lose 1 larva, but I'm not sure how I'd weigh the supply cap. I was able to do it with no time wasted at 3 larvae. And it's not a larva wasting supply cap -- as the others said you can build an overlord/zergling, or overlord/extractor/zergling/zergling.
Well I always send my 10th drone to scout in these so that might affect things
What I like about 16p 16h is that I can build overlord before Queen and not need to build the extractor yet, since that timing for extractor is imo a bit too early if you're planning on using Roaches to defend, which I almost always do. I also am able to build a pair of lings the second the pool finishes unlike with 14p.
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On November 27 2010 12:50 Shikyo wrote:Well according to this test I did now, 14pool 16hatch -> get to 18 supply with extractor and wait gets 250 minerals by 4 minutes, 16pool 16hatch doing the same thing and waiting at 18 supply gets 360 minerals by 4 minutes, so I'd say that the difference is kind of significant. Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 12:49 Hurkyl wrote:On November 27 2010 12:31 Shikyo wrote:Ehh... It's like 10 seconds, then you will get supply capped right after making your Queen. Guess you only lose 1 larva, but I'm not sure how I'd weigh the supply cap. I was able to do it with no time wasted at 3 larvae. And it's not a larva wasting supply cap -- as the others said you can build an overlord/zergling, or overlord/extractor/zergling/zergling. Well I always send my 10th drone to scout in these so that might affect things
14 hatch 16 pool is a terrible build. dont do that, you wont have the zerglings out to get the hatch down against a worker block at 16 supply and usually you get to expand at the exact same time as a 14 gas, 14 pool, speedling opener.
guys for mineral measurements use the ingame clock not supply.
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On November 27 2010 12:50 Shikyo wrote:
Well according to this test I did now, 14pool 16hatch -> get to 18 supply with extractor and wait gets 250 minerals by 4 minutes, 16pool 16hatch doing the same thing and waiting at 18 supply gets 360 minerals by 4 minutes, so I'd say that the difference is kind of significant.
I'm not sure what you're doing wrong -- I get the same for both of them. Actually, I had 494 minerals with the 14 pool and 489 minerals with the 16 pool.
Finishing with 16 drones, queen, 18/26 supply, pool, extractor, and some unspent larvae right?
Edit: Actually I did 15 pool not 16 pool -- I was able to harvest fast enough that I would have had 250 minerals when the larvae for the 16th drone popped.
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How on earth would you have 489 or 494 minerals when I only barely got 390 and did the build exactly <_<
Well maybe its because I send a drone to chill in the middle of the map at 10 supply
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That would do it -- 2 and a half minutes of a drone not harvesting works out to about 100 minerals.
I usually include when to scout in a build, because it really does make a big difference like that if you're trying to really optimize timings.
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Well, I scout with my 10/10 drone and ended up with 450 at 4 minutes, though I did use that same drone to drop the hatch.
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To go off in a slight tangent... what are you looking for with your scouting drone? If you're mainly checking to see if it's safe to drone up, you might be better off with an early pool (say, 11 overlord 12 pool, or even 11 pool 10 overlord) and just build a couple extra Zerglings.
Both ways deprive you of early minerals, but the latter gives you an early queen and some zerglings as compensation.
(This ides is still in the brainstorming stage)
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Hatch first does give a small window where the opponent can cheese you, but if you can hold it off with minimal losses you're usually going to come out ahead. It also allows you to get the double queen right away and spread creep earlier, which helps tremendously against 4gate and stuff like that.
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I don't play zerg... but I'm guessing part of it has to do with making sure the hatch doesn't get blocked. Making it early assures it doesn't get blocked by an ebay or pillon... which makes a massive difference in production long-term.
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Yes, that's the main hatch-first reason I think. Avoiding the block. Not economy.
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16 pool 17 hatch: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked:
6 minutes in: 910 mineralzz and 41 supply.
15 hatch 14 pool: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked:
6 minutes in 690mineralzz and 43 supply made an extra overlord though, because almost reached cap.
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EPT
