EPT[D] Is hatch first really more economical? - Page 4
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
| ||
|
Cambam
United States360 Posts
On November 27 2010 13:38 Madkipz wrote: 16 pool 17 hatch: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked: 6 minutes in: 910 mineralzz and 41 supply. 15 hatch 14 pool: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked: 6 minutes in 690mineralzz and 43 supply made an extra overlord though, because almost reached cap. Bravo! Very interesting to see. | ||
|
Hurkyl
304 Posts
On November 27 2010 13:38 Madkipz wrote: 16 pool 17 hatch: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked: 6 minutes in: 910 mineralzz and 41 supply. 15 hatch 14 pool: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked: 6 minutes in 690mineralzz and 43 supply made an extra overlord though, because almost reached cap. Just for fun, same test: (except second queen is slightly delayed) 11 pool 10 overlord 14 queen 17 hatch 17 overlord 18 queen ... At 6:00, 353 minerals, 47/52 supply, with another overlord still in its egg. | ||
|
Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On November 27 2010 13:45 Dragar wrote: You made two queens asap when you didn't need the production with your 15 hatch. That's going to set you behind any build with a later second queen. There might be other factors too, but you should try to optimise when you make queens before drawing conclusions. i dont understand, i made the queens as fast as possible where it wouldnt interfere with supply or waste larvae, even if larvae from an entire vomit where not instantly consumed during the first round of vomits it quickly balanced itself out thats like saying your opponent is a factor so you should make zerglings at this and that time. Its never going to be realistic enough. | ||
|
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 27 2010 13:38 Madkipz wrote: 16 pool 17 hatch: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked: 6 minutes in: 910 mineralzz and 41 supply. 15 hatch 14 pool: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked: 6 minutes in 690mineralzz and 43 supply made an extra overlord though, because almost reached cap. 9pool without any lings 6 minutes in 48/52 with 2 hatch double Queen Seems like 9pool gets more total larvae than those builds? Hmmhmm... EDIT: Yep, 48/52 at 6:00 with 9pool 10ov 11extractor trick 11 queen -> 23 hatch Does any build have more drones than 9pool at 6:00? EDIT2: Well, its not exactly 44 drones because many are hatching, but supply count is still 48/52. And we all know about the safety of 9pool, I guess. | ||
|
FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
| ||
|
Hurkyl
304 Posts
Making an earlier pool is not the "I'm sacrificing early harvesting and production so that I can have early Zerglings" trade-off a lot of people seem to think it is. It is instead "I'm sacrificing early harvesting so that I can have early Zerglings and greater production". | ||
|
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
It really seems like... I might start using this as my standard ladder build. o_O | ||
|
Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On November 27 2010 14:40 Shikyo wrote: Hmm 10pool seems to get 50/52 supply at 6:03. You even get to hatch at 19 like normal. It really seems like... I might start using this as my standard ladder build. o_O however the 16 pool 17 hatch had alot of leftover mineralz. That means it will be the first hatch that can support 3 hatch off two base or go allinn zerglings, get a third earlier. This is also without gas and zerglings so ;/ | ||
|
FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On November 27 2010 14:35 Hurkyl wrote: This is the big thing that's different from SC/BW which I feel like not many people understand. Making an earlier pool is not the "I'm sacrificing early harvesting and production so that I can have early Zerglings" trade-off a lot of people seem to think it is. It is instead "I'm sacrificing early harvesting so that I can have early Zerglings and greater production". You're also wrong in that your not sacrificing early harvesting with pool first. 14 hatch 14 pool has to cut drones, and ultimately has FEWER drones mining early on compared to a 14 pool 16 hatch build, which has more drones mining earlier (16 as opposed to 14). | ||
|
denzelz
United States604 Posts
Hatch first is more economical and it will give you more larva. There is NO debate about this. The only debate is when and how to implement a hatch first build. | ||
|
Pax
United States175 Posts
Against Terran, 15 hatch 14 pool has been the most successful opening for me because of the extra queen. However, against a 2 gate, I have found that this opening doesn't get me enough lings to kill his initial zealots (you need ~4 lings per zealot to hold it off), while 14 pool 16 hatch does. I honestly don't see why people continue to argue about this. The solution is simple, just do what you're more comfortable with, as the more comfortable you are in the early game, the better off you'll be going into the mid. | ||
|
Lomilar
United States130 Posts
Now for the statement: You get an extra round of larva from *one* queen going pool before hatch. If you want to do the math, dont forget: It takes time to harvest minerals. 40 mpm * number of drones Second hatches produce larva (this is what makes it very close) Hatch takes 100 seconds, Spawning pools 65 seconds, and queens 50 seconds. The math is pretty damn close. I got more or less equal larva counts at the point when the two queens spit simultaneously. | ||
|
TheOvermind77
United States923 Posts
On November 27 2010 16:21 Lomilar wrote: First of all, thanks for using Now for the statement: You get an extra round of larva from *one* queen going pool before hatch. If you want to do the math, dont forget: It takes time to harvest minerals. 40 mpm * number of drones Second hatches produce larva (this is what makes it very close) Hatch takes 100 seconds, Spawning pools 65 seconds, and queens 50 seconds. The math is pretty damn close. I got more or less equal larva counts at the point when the two queens spit simultaneously. You know what some of us would do for a Protoss or Terran version of your masterpiece? : ) Most builds I mess with in the Evo chamber always go pool first. I don't think I have ever gotten a hatch first build as the final spit-out. It seems that 15/14 pool followed by 16 hatch gets that first queen under the 18 pop cap plus 2 scouting lings before 3:30... | ||
|
icezar
Germany240 Posts
http://sc2calc.org/build_order/ 10 Extractor trick 11 Overlord 14 spawning Pool 16 Hatchery > transfer 3 16 queen > spawn larvae [auto] 18 Overlord 21 queen > spawn larvae [auto] 23 Overlord 35 Drone 5:20 checkpoint I could not find any better build that would mine you more minerals until you have 2 base and 32 drones up. This was pretty easy to find, now the problem is if you take gas into account... i am lost Now i am debating how i should defend this: speedlings - i need 100Gas and is larva intensive Roach- i need Roach Warren fast so the roach have time to pop but is uses fewer larvae and i need the gas later Spines - i delay the gas, also not larvae intensive but have a long build time and sacrifice drones also immobile. | ||
|
SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
| ||
|
Cambam
United States360 Posts
On November 27 2010 15:13 denzelz wrote: Okay look. When you go pool first and say that you will have the same amount of larva as a hatch first build, you are not taking into account the time it takes for a queen to build. When you go hatch first (15 hatch 14 pool), you would have saved up enough minerals to build 4 lings + 2 queens right when Pool finishes. You get to have two queens in the time that it takes to build one queen if you only had 1 hatch all the while you get to benefit from the additional larvas from the expo hatch. Hatch first is more economical and it will give you more larva. There is NO debate about this. The only debate is when and how to implement a hatch first build. It is debatable, that's the point of this thread. 15 hatch/14 pool cuts more early drones, which slows down later drones. And you can't support the larva off 2 queens + 2 hatch that fast (though the creep tumors and defensive capabilities are definitely worth something). However, getting two queens quickly is a big investment, 300 minerals as opposed to 150. That's 3 drones and 120 minerals per minute your missing out on early game. So getting 2 fast queens isn't such an obvious decision. And lastly, even if pool first is only on par in economy with hatch first, pool first is still superior because it's more defensive. As for 15 hatch being unblockable, this hasn't really been my experience. 9 pylon scouts and 10 supply depot scouts seem to reach your natural in time to block on most maps. As for the 9/10 pool 12 queen builds people have been talking about, I've seen them too. If nothing else, they can confuse your opponent into preparing for early zerglings, which is awesome. However, I believe there is a thread about those early pool eco builds. This thread is about the pros and cons of 15 hatch/14 pool and 16 pool/15 hatch. | ||
|
UncleOwnage
Denmark36 Posts
If you can't secure an extra base, even if it's your natural, you have no way of knowing if you'll ever get those minerals. Usually, your main is secure by default, only in rare cases will you not be able to mine your main out. This brings me to the main point: 20 drones spread on your main and natural is better than 20 drones on your main, because with 10 drones on your natural, you will mine minerals you haven't (completely) secured yet. This will leave your "secured" mineral patches in your main left with more minerals, giving you more time mining there. It's a sort of meta-game theory, in that some would argue "minerals mined are minerals mined, no matter where from", but I feel (and this is very crucial, this thinking is VERY subjective) that mining from any other base than your main as early as possible is beneficial. If you later have to give up your natural, you will then have more minerals in your main to fall back on. This theory might also be more important for races that can one/two-base efficiently (I'm protoss, for the record). | ||
|
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
| ||
|
Throat
United States156 Posts
On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote: Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU. When do you put down your hatch in this build? | ||
| ||
