[D] Is hatch first really more economical?

As for economy, a 2nd base doesn't start being more efficient than 1 base until you have >20 drones on minerals. So by this logic, you don't really need to start your 2nd hatch until about 21 food

On November 27 2010 08:50 Dragar wrote:
.

This logic is flawed. You want the second hatch to finish once you hit 21 drones, if efficient mining is your overall concern.

On November 27 2010 09:07 navara wrote:
maybe economically it's always better, but you want faster creep on your natural to defend it, don't forget that.

On November 27 2010 08:56 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
Pool first is 100% better than hatch first in every single scenario. Since there are pro gamers that hatch first, many people will mindlessly copy without question.

If you run a side-by-side comparison and race to 50 drones, you'll find that hatch first and pool first both reach it at about the same time. The only difference is, pool first grants you much more flexibility and is a safer opening build.

There is absolutely no reason to hatch first in any matchup, on any map, ever.

On November 27 2010 09:08 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
This argument is self-defeating. If your opponent is doing some sort of build that is SO intensive that you NEED that creep early, it probably would have been better not to have expanded early anyway. If you hatch first, you forfeit the ability to make that strategic decision without wasting minerals and delaying your spawning pool.

On November 27 2010 09:08 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
This argument is self-defeating. If your opponent is doing some sort of build that is SO intensive that you NEED that creep early, it probably would have been better not to have expanded early anyway. If you hatch first, you forfeit the ability to make that strategic decision without wasting minerals and delaying your spawning pool.

On November 27 2010 08:50 Dragar wrote:
.

This logic is flawed. You want the second hatch to finish once you hit 21 drones, if efficient mining is your overall concern.

On November 27 2010 09:02 Cambam wrote:

I agree with you, but I said 21 food, not 21 drones. 21 food would be 1 queen, 2 zerglings and 18 drones. If you have an extractor, that leaves only 15 drones on minerals. So if you start your hatch at 21, it will finish around the time you're at 26 food (20 drones on minerals), right on time to be efficient.

On November 27 2010 09:36 kineSiS- wrote:


1:1 Ratio of Minerals to Drones is always the most efficient. There will be a slight lull in your economy when you still have the lack of minerals/queen but early on you can't use the larvae given by the queen anyways. And which sufficient micro two hatcheries is easy to utilize all that larvae and barely have excess minerals.

On November 27 2010 09:08 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
This argument is self-defeating. If your opponent is doing some sort of build that is SO intensive that you NEED that creep early, it probably would have been better not to have expanded early anyway. If you hatch first, you forfeit the ability to make that strategic decision without wasting minerals and delaying your spawning pool.

On November 27 2010 09:51 MoreFasho wrote:

You're actually totally wrong. Look at 4-gate timing for protoss. You won't have had creep up for long enough to lay a tumor and expand from it if you expand at 20 food, but you will if you go 14/16 or hatch first. This is actually a huge deal against a 4-gate as if you lose your natural against a 4-gate you lose the game. Not saying a speedling expand can't hold, but its' much easier if you can spread your creep.

On November 27 2010 08:32 Cambam wrote:
TL;DR: 16 pool/15 hatch is more economical and safer than 15 hatch/14 pool

On November 27 2010 09:36 kineSiS- wrote:


1:1 Ratio of Minerals to Drones is always the most efficient.

On November 27 2010 10:34 Tachion wrote:

Is there a reason for such a late pool? You can do 14 pool 15 hatch without wasting any larva or cutting drones.

On November 27 2010 09:51 MoreFasho wrote:

You're actually totally wrong. Look at 4-gate timing for protoss. You won't have had creep up for long enough to lay a tumor and expand from it if you expand at 20 food, but you will if you go 14/16 or hatch first. This is actually a huge deal against a 4-gate as if you lose your natural against a 4-gate you lose the game. Not saying a speedling expand can't hold, but its' much easier if you can spread your creep.

16 pool
17 hatch
16 overlord
16 queen
21 gas

On November 27 2010 10:41 Cambam wrote:You have to cut drones to do a 14 pool. Cutting drones means interrupting constant drone production to save up for a structure. With a 16 pool, you never stop making drones and don't have to wait around to save up 200 minerals, you just have it after you make the 16th drone.

On November 27 2010 09:34 falstag wrote:

Okay hatch takes 100 secs to build, drone takes 25. Larva spawn every 15. Lets say we time this perfectly and drone 21 pops when the hatch finishs. Before we start the hatch we drop 2 gas. 100 secs - 25 for the 21st drone = 75sec. 15 secs per larva = 5 larva when the hatch is building. so when the hatch first begins you need 16 drones, or 17 before the hatch begins. 17 hatch seems really late for a hatch first build.

On November 27 2010 11:21 Hurkyl wrote:

You don't even have to cut drones for a 12 pool, let alone a 14 pool. The larvae mechanic let's you delay a drone without actually cutting it.

On November 27 2010 11:39 Cambam wrote:

...

That's what cutting means. Obviously you eventually build the drone later in the game, but you don't build it as soon as you possibly could in order to get the spawning pool at 12.

If you're saying you can get a 12/14 pool without letting your larva count reach 3 and thus become wasteful, that may be true (not sure), but even so, it's still worse for your economy than not cutting (delaying) drones at all.

On November 27 2010 09:02 Cambam wrote:

I agree with you, but I said 21 food, not 21 drones. 21 food would be 1 queen, 2 zerglings and 18 drones. If you have an extractor, that leaves only 15 drones on minerals. So if you start your hatch at 21, it will finish around the time you're at 26 food (20 drones on minerals), right on time to be efficient.

If you're saying you can get a 12/14 pool without letting your larva count reach 3 and thus become wasteful, that may be true (not sure), but even so, it's still worse for your economy than not cutting (delaying) drones at all.

On November 27 2010 11:46 Tachion wrote:

Is that actually worse for your economy though? Let's say you delay making a drone for 10 seconds to get your 14 pool up, but then you get your queen out sooner, and suddenly you have 4 drones making after larva inject that much faster than a later pool. Doesn't delaying that first drone make up for it with a faster queen?

On November 27 2010 11:50 Dromar wrote:
In general, you may as well build your pool as late as humanly possible (with good scouting) without risking getting run over, as you'll have more time to mine with that drone if nothing else.

On November 27 2010 12:00 Hurkyl wrote:

No, it's merely different for your economy. When you build the Spawning Pool is a trade-off.

• Early pool = earlier queen = a couple larva
  
• Late pool = a couple drones hatch earlier = a couple bonus minerals

I'm having great difficulty imagining any case where 20 extra minerals at that point in the game could be worth sacrificing a not much later larva. (And I think you don't even get that much by choosing 16 pool over 14 pool)

On November 27 2010 12:12 Shikyo wrote:

Actually, if you do 14pool you won't have 150 min for the Queen right away assuming you did expand at around 16, so you won't get the Queen that much faster. You also lose the mining time from the drone building the pool as well as having slower consecutive drones. ALSO, with 14pool 16hatch, you will have 3 larvae sitting around for a LONG LONG TIME, since you can't make anything after the hatch because you must save for the Queen asap. You're going to waste about 2 full larvae like that. In theory you're correct, in practice it doesn't work like that.

On November 27 2010 12:12 Shikyo wrote:Actually, if you do 14pool you won't have 150 min for the Queen right away assuming you did expand at around 16, so you won't get the Queen that much faster. You also lose the mining time from the drone building the pool as well as having slower consecutive drones. ALSO, with 14pool 16hatch, you will have 3 larvae sitting around for a LONG LONG TIME, since you can't make anything after the hatch because you must save for the Queen asap. You're going to waste about 2 full larvae like that. In theory you're correct, in practice it doesn't work like that.

On November 27 2010 11:33 dementrio wrote:
I also played with the evochamber software after seeing the thread about a 10 pool eco build. I cant remember the exact goal I entered but 10pool, 12queen seems to be the fastest way to get 1 base saturated. What Ive been doing is getting a second queen right after the fist one, it can lay down 3-4 tumors before going to vomit on the second hatch if you decide to get one early (around 20 food). that means that typically you have creep at your nat before the hatch finishes; im not sure how that compares to a hatch first build but I honestly dont think creep is enough of a reason to go hatch first - esp since with an early pool its easier to defend early pressure without crawlers.

if you're interested the build evochamber gave is:

10pool
10overlord
10extractor trick
12queen

On November 27 2010 12:22 Hurkyl wrote:

I just did a test, and this doesn't seem to even resemble reality.

My comments aren't just theory -- they are the analysis of real world tests.

On November 27 2010 12:12 Shikyo wrote:

Actually, if you do 14pool you won't have 150 min for the Queen right away assuming you did expand at around 16, so you won't get the Queen that much faster. You also lose the mining time from the drone building the pool as well as having slower consecutive drones. ALSO, with 14pool 16hatch, you will have 3 larvae sitting around for a LONG LONG TIME, since you can't make anything after the hatch because you must save for the Queen asap. You're going to waste about 2 full larvae like that. In theory you're correct, in practice it doesn't work like that.

On November 27 2010 12:31 Shikyo wrote:

Ehh... It's like 10 seconds, then you will get supply capped right after making your Queen. Guess you only lose 1 larva, but I'm not sure how I'd weigh the supply cap.

On November 27 2010 12:35 Dragar wrote:


You're not suppply capped after making the queen. 16 hatch, 15 queen, takes you to 17/18. Have you actually tested this?

On November 27 2010 12:39 Shikyo wrote:
EDIT: Also doing what you suggested loses to 2 marines but okay

On November 27 2010 12:31 Shikyo wrote:Ehh... It's like 10 seconds, then you will get supply capped right after making your Queen. Guess you only lose 1 larva, but I'm not sure how I'd weigh the supply cap.

On November 27 2010 12:49 Hurkyl wrote:

I was able to do it with no time wasted at 3 larvae. And it's not a larva wasting supply cap -- as the others said you can build an overlord/zergling, or overlord/extractor/zergling/zergling.

On November 27 2010 12:50 Shikyo wrote:
Well according to this test I did now, 14pool 16hatch -> get to 18 supply with extractor and wait gets 250 minerals by 4 minutes, 16pool 16hatch doing the same thing and waiting at 18 supply gets 360 minerals by 4 minutes, so I'd say that the difference is kind of significant.


Well I always send my 10th drone to scout in these so that might affect things

On November 27 2010 12:50 Shikyo wrote:
Well according to this test I did now, 14pool 16hatch -> get to 18 supply with extractor and wait gets 250 minerals by 4 minutes, 16pool 16hatch doing the same thing and waiting at 18 supply gets 360 minerals by 4 minutes, so I'd say that the difference is kind of significant.

On November 27 2010 13:38 Madkipz wrote:
16 pool 17 hatch: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked:

6 minutes in: 910 mineralzz and 41 supply.


15 hatch 14 pool: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked:

6 minutes in 690mineralzz and 43 supply made an extra overlord though, because almost reached cap.

On November 27 2010 13:38 Madkipz wrote:
16 pool 17 hatch: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked:

6 minutes in: 910 mineralzz and 41 supply.


15 hatch 14 pool: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked:

6 minutes in 690mineralzz and 43 supply made an extra overlord though, because almost reached cap.

On November 27 2010 13:45 Dragar wrote:
You made two queens asap when you didn't need the production with your 15 hatch. That's going to set you behind any build with a later second queen. There might be other factors too, but you should try to optimise when you make queens before drawing conclusions.

On November 27 2010 13:38 Madkipz wrote:
16 pool 17 hatch: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked:

6 minutes in: 910 mineralzz and 41 supply.


15 hatch 14 pool: Getting the fastest two queens, only making drones the bare minimum of overlords and never getting supply blocked:

6 minutes in 690mineralzz and 43 supply made an extra overlord though, because almost reached cap.

On November 27 2010 14:40 Shikyo wrote:
Hmm 10pool seems to get 50/52 supply at 6:03. You even get to hatch at 19 like normal.

It really seems like... I might start using this as my standard ladder build. o_O

On November 27 2010 14:35 Hurkyl wrote:
This is the big thing that's different from SC/BW which I feel like not many people understand.

Making an earlier pool is not the "I'm sacrificing early harvesting and production so that I can have early Zerglings" trade-off a lot of people seem to think it is. It is instead "I'm sacrificing early harvesting so that I can have early Zerglings and greater production".

On November 27 2010 16:21 Lomilar wrote:
First of all, thanks for using my our program to challenge the metagame. It is pretty flattering. :-)

Now for the statement:

You get an extra round of larva from *one* queen going pool before hatch. If you want to do the math, dont forget:

It takes time to harvest minerals. 40 mpm * number of drones
Second hatches produce larva (this is what makes it very close)
Hatch takes 100 seconds, Spawning pools 65 seconds, and queens 50 seconds.

The math is pretty damn close. I got more or less equal larva counts at the point when the two queens spit simultaneously.

On November 27 2010 15:13 denzelz wrote:
Okay look. When you go pool first and say that you will have the same amount of larva as a hatch first build, you are not taking into account the time it takes for a queen to build. When you go hatch first (15 hatch 14 pool), you would have saved up enough minerals to build 4 lings + 2 queens right when Pool finishes. You get to have two queens in the time that it takes to build one queen if you only had 1 hatch all the while you get to benefit from the additional larvas from the expo hatch.

Hatch first is more economical and it will give you more larva. There is NO debate about this. The only debate is when and how to implement a hatch first build.

On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU.

On November 28 2010 00:40 Throat wrote:


When do you put down your hatch in this build?

On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU.

On November 27 2010 15:13 denzelz wrote:
Okay look. When you go pool first and say that you will have the same amount of larva as a hatch first build, you are not taking into account the time it takes for a queen to build. When you go hatch first (15 hatch 14 pool), you would have saved up enough minerals to build 4 lings + 2 queens right when Pool finishes. You get to have two queens in the time that it takes to build one queen if you only had 1 hatch all the while you get to benefit from the additional larvas from the expo hatch.

Hatch first is more economical and it will give you more larva. There is NO debate about this. The only debate is when and how to implement a hatch first build.

On November 27 2010 18:58 icezar wrote:
From my tests the build that gets you the fastest minerals is:

http://sc2calc.org/build_order/
10 Extractor trick
11 Overlord
14 spawning Pool
16 Hatchery > transfer 3
16 queen > spawn larvae [auto]
18 Overlord
21 queen > spawn larvae [auto]
23 Overlord
35 Drone
5:20 checkpoint

I could not find any better build that would mine you more minerals until you have 2 base and 32 drones up.

This was pretty easy to find, now the problem is if you take gas into account... i am lost
Now i am debating how i should defend this:
speedlings - i need 100Gas and is larva intensive
Roach- i need Roach Warren fast so the roach have time to pop but is uses fewer larvae and i need the gas later
Spines - i delay the gas, also not larvae intensive but have a long build time and sacrifice drones also immobile.

On November 27 2010 20:35 Cambam wrote:

It is debatable, that's the point of this thread. 15 hatch/14 pool cuts more early drones, which slows down later drones.

And you can't support the larva off 2 queens + 2 hatch that fast (though the creep tumors and defensive capabilities are definitely worth something).

However, getting two queens quickly is a big investment, 300 minerals as opposed to 150. That's 3 drones and 120 minerals per minute your missing out on early game.

This thread is about the pros and cons of 15 hatch/14 pool and 16 pool/15 hatch.

On November 28 2010 01:54 shutdown_exploded wrote:

replay or it didn't happen?

On November 28 2010 03:19 Shikyo wrote:

LOL Actually it was a 5gate wtf o_O I thought it was 3-gate, no wonder it was such a strong attack. But yeah :


http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169353

Feels soooo strong.

On November 28 2010 03:28 Darthturtle wrote:


Nothing against your play, but I'm watching this protoss go forge gate cannon in-base and then chrono his gate and not build anything from it.

On November 28 2010 03:55 Ksyper wrote:
If hatch first wasn't better pros wouldn't be doing it.
They get paid for playing, don't you think they would know if pool first was better?
I like to go hatch first whenever I can, and it feels much stronger.
I am to lazy to check, but does going pool first give you the larvae before hatch first, you have to take into account the fact that your pool needs to finish then your queen then the larvae need to pop.

On November 28 2010 03:55 Ksyper wrote:
If hatch first wasn't better pros wouldn't be doing it.
They get paid for playing, don't you think they would know if pool first was better?

I am to lazy to check, but does going pool first give you the larvae before hatch first, you have to take into account the fact that your pool needs to finish then your queen then the larvae need to pop.

On November 28 2010 03:59 Reptaur wrote:
Hatch first isnt economical until you have a certain number of dones but its irelevant, the biggest bonus of having an early hatch is having more larvae.

On November 28 2010 03:07 Hurkyl wrote:Yes you can. It only takes 24-25 drones on minerals for constant 2 hatch 2 queen Drone / Zergling production. You can* nearly have that by the time your Queens hatch, and the minerals you bank while waiting for the Queens to pop easily cover the deficit.

*: Whether you should have that is, of course, another question entirely.

On November 28 2010 06:06 Vaporized wrote:
i am now a 10 pool/17 hatch convert. won 4 in a row against ~2000 diamond. just dominated.

for the first time i beat a 15 nexus without early roach/ling pressure. this is how i want to play zerg. 17 hatch, and 25 hatch at a third. all three were saturated before he had sent one unit to my base. he brought 3 phoenix and 3 void ray. i had 6 hydras already, and 10 more producing. send the survivors + early lings i had, + ROACHES i rallied. my econ was so good, + larva on three hatches... i could pump ~20 roaches twice. the first wave +hydras took out the nat. the second wave + survivors of the first pushed into his main for the gg.

beat a marine/tank terran. stomped him, he was like wtf after each battle. my army was already rolling by the time he was ready to push, 12 mutas, 20 banelings, 40 lings.

the quicker saturation makes a world of difference in getting your early econ going. feels so much better then 14 hatch. yesterday i couldnt win 14 hatching. today i cant lose 10 pooling. so counterintuitive but i highly recommened trying it.

the one problem is the marine+scv rushes. the timing can be off for having a spine rdy at ur nat. their whole goal is to deny that expansion. maybe i should focus on saturating my main.defending my ramp, and then expanding when he is done sending marines. defending my ramp with spines+lings should completely shut down marine+scv rushes. i will have enough larva to make lings and get a nice drone count going. need to explore this further. but against normal play/ or any toss i will 10 pool.

On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU.

On November 28 2010 03:59 Shikyo wrote:

2100 diamonds are terrible yeah T_T Need to play more, 400 bonus pool -_-

On November 28 2010 06:15 navara wrote:



i'd like those replay if you don't mind =)

On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU.

On November 28 2010 08:05 Tachion wrote:
This is by no means definite or fool proof, but just in my own personal testing of 14 hatch 15 pool vs 16 pool 16 hatch I had a 12 mineral difference at the 6 min mark after getting queens out from the 2nd hatch asap. no gas. Stopped at 30 supply both times after my main was fully saturated.
...
the hatch first opening seemed to be a clear winner. More minerals and more larva. It'd be cool if other people could go test it themselves to compare results.

On November 28 2010 08:20 SlapMySalami wrote:God that's so dumb when would you get gas for ling bling ZvZ or would you just get a 10 roach warren??? A 10 pool is hard countered by a 14 pool and I or any other zerg could easily show you that.

On November 28 2010 08:20 SlapMySalami wrote:



God that's so dumb when would you get gas for ling bling ZvZ or would you just get a 10 roach warren??? A 10 pool is hard countered by a 14 pool and I or any other zerg could easily show you that.

On November 28 2010 08:20 SlapMySalami wrote:



God that's so dumb when would you get gas for ling bling ZvZ or would you just get a 10 roach warren??? A 10 pool is hard countered by a 14 pool and I or any other zerg could easily show you that.

On November 28 2010 09:16 Pwere wrote:
Only if you make 6 lings right away and send them to die or do absolutely nothing. If you only make a pair of lings and drone + deny OV scouting with early queen, you're ahead.

Iirc, 10trick -> 11pool was the best early pool build for larvae.

On November 28 2010 14:31 TheOvermind77 wrote:
BTW I just tested a 10pool variant against my standard 14pool/13extractor/15 hatch. My goal was to get two queens, and expo, two extractors, and to also throw down a roach warren around 23-25 supply.

10ov, 10 pool, 14 ext, 15 queen, 17 ling, 18 hatch
vs
14pool, 13 ext, 15 hatch, 15 queen, 17 ov 18 ling (A build I use often)

They came out nearly dead even (as in max 10 second difference) to 36 supply. Except the first one was totally 10 pool, which I know I hate seeing as toss. And is super safe vs cheese.

Definitely going to try some 10pool eco on ladder, now.

That's wrong, do 10pool 10double extractor trick 12ov 12queen, it's amazing(with perfect extractor trick ov finishes the same millisecond as your pool does, but you can just chill and place the pool at 225 or so minerals for a tiny(not even 5 minerals) bit better econ and more reliable timing).

On November 28 2010 14:49 TheOvermind77 wrote:


Let me give it a try vs the build I tried. Is everything else similar after that point?

On November 28 2010 14:55 Shikyo wrote:

I do 12queen 14drone 15drone 16extractor at earliest(ofc you can get this right after queen at 14 supply if needed but it won't be as smooth) etc, a pair of lings at 16-18 supply as needed. You can get the ov at 17 supply and it'll be fine, and expansion hatch at 18 if I expand, if not Roach warren or something.

On November 28 2010 15:01 TheOvermind77 wrote:


Beautiful, just gave it a shot vs an AI while you were probably typing a reply.

I have a feeling this might change zerg quite a bit if it catches on. 10pool feinting gives some amazing options!

I decided to test this just because the notion that hatch first wasn't more economical sounded absurd to me. Note: I ONLY tested the builds trying to maximize economy (building two queens as soon as possible, spending all energy on larva, all larva on drones and overs, maynarding etc.) so this says nothing about which is better strategy, safer, or creep friendly.
I performed both builds as efficiently as possible multiple times and took the average of each after pausing each game at exactly 6:20. I picked this time because I noted in each build it was the moment with the least units in production, right after drone pops. Here are the results:

14 pool 15 hatch:
Minerals: 590
Drones: 44
Overlords: 7

14 hatch 14 pool:
Minerals: 735
Drones: 48
Overlords: 7

Edit: Added previous posters build
10 pool 16 hatch:
Minerals: 640
Drones: 44
Overlords: 6

I know everyone likes to get caught up on technicalities, but my tests seem to confirm the assumption, that hatch first is more economical. The 10pool build actually did surprisingly well, perhaps we should focus on this fact more. If anyone wants to debate this or suggest a better method of testing, please do.

On November 28 2010 09:02 Hurkyl wrote:
(P.S. a very late pool like 16 pool is not very representative of pool-first builds)

On November 28 2010 15:36 jdseemoreglass wrote:
This topic has already been discussed and hatch first has repeatedly been shown to be more economical.

On November 28 2010 15:36 jdseemoreglass wrote:
This topic has already been discussed and hatch first has repeatedly been shown to be more economical. Whether it is better strategically I will not argue. Here are the previous tests I ran along with a link to the original thread for your viewing:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164559

On November 28 2010 15:49 Nemireck wrote:

None of your tests include the 16pool builds that OP has listed. This has been tested by posters within THIS thread, and it's been proven that you're actually wrong.

Whether or not the most economical build is STRATEGICALLY viable, is a question of time and practice.

On November 28 2010 15:36 jdseemoreglass wrote:
This topic has already been discussed and hatch first has repeatedly been shown to be more economical. Whether it is better strategically I will not argue. Here are the previous tests I ran along with a link to the original thread for your viewing:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164559

On November 28 2010 08:05 Tachion wrote:
This is by no means definite or fool proof, but just in my own personal testing of 14 hatch 15 pool vs 16 pool 16 hatch I had a 12 mineral difference at the 6 min mark after getting queens out from the 2nd hatch asap. no gas. Stopped at 30 supply both times after my main was fully saturated.
the 10 pool 17/18 hatch was about 350 minerals behind those at the same point.

Edit: just did it a 2nd time with cleaner build times and here were my results

http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/14hatch15pool.jpg
http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/16pool16hatch.jpg
http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/10pool18hatch.jpg

the hatch first opening seemed to be a clear winner. More minerals and more larva. It'd be cool if other people could go test it themselves to compare results.

On November 27 2010 22:06 UncleOwnage wrote:
There's one factor nobody takes into consideration; minerals aren't yours until mined/secured. This of course, requires a bit of explanation.
If you can't secure an extra base, even if it's your natural, you have no way of knowing if you'll ever get those minerals. Usually, your main is secure by default, only in rare cases will you not be able to mine your main out.
This brings me to the main point: 20 drones spread on your main and natural is better than 20 drones on your main, because with 10 drones on your natural, you will mine minerals you haven't (completely) secured yet. This will leave your "secured" mineral patches in your main left with more minerals, giving you more time mining there.
It's a sort of meta-game theory, in that some would argue "minerals mined are minerals mined, no matter where from", but I feel (and this is very crucial, this thinking is VERY subjective) that mining from any other base than your main as early as possible is beneficial.
If you later have to give up your natural, you will then have more minerals in your main to fall back on. This theory might also be more important for races that can one/two-base efficiently (I'm protoss, for the record).

On November 28 2010 16:13 Ryukku wrote:



i think this post is probably the most impt post of the thread so far. if everyone was playing greed mode, then fine. i completely agree with all the number cruchers, but the biggest benefit i see in hatch first is ure securing minerals mined that might not be yours in the later part of the game.

On November 28 2010 15:25 Voros wrote:
...

Given that EC is currently English-only and not exactly accessible to Korean progamers, we may soon witness the unusual phenomenon of western build orders trickling down to Korean zergs.

On November 28 2010 16:13 Ryukku wrote:



i think this post is probably the most impt post of the thread so far. if everyone was playing greed mode, then fine. i completely agree with all the number cruchers, but the biggest benefit i see in hatch first is ure securing minerals mined that might not be yours in the later part of the game.

On November 27 2010 09:16 QuakerOats wrote:


What if it's ZvT and the T is doing a 2rax build? On maps with a small choke building 1 or 2 sunkens shortly after the hatch finishes leaves you free to drone up on 2 bases and for the most part shuts down your opponent's ability to rush. If you pool first you won't be able to have a sunk in time, so you won't be able to expo for a while, and there's no way that massing lings off one base to defend is better than having the early hatch and sunkens.

On November 28 2010 16:04 jdseemoreglass wrote:


So far this is the only post in the entire thread that posted side-by-side comparisons and it shows hatch first to be favored. All the theorycrafting and build "optimizers" really don't count for much until we actually get some comparative evidence here. And for the last time, drone count is not the only criteria necessary here. Resource count, overlord count, game clock time, and units in production are all relevant as well.

On November 28 2010 16:22 Lomilar wrote:


:-x (pardon my off-topic)

Coming soon.

On November 29 2010 23:14 Phrencys wrote:
I don't see any reason to delay pool up to 16. At this point you'll be larva starved and have about 350 mineral when you reach 16, so I think 15 should be your target. And at this point, the difference between 15pool/17hatch and a more "standard" 14pool/16 hatch is negligible.

On November 30 2010 01:05 ZomgTossRush wrote:
For you number crunchers out there, here is another point you might want to consider.

If you are hatching late, shouldn't you assume some sort of natural block, dismissing the exact timing of your hatch timing anyways? And if you pool first shouldn't you automatically include a pair of lings in your build orders to help take out that bunker/pylon? Normally I wouldn't suggest something that happens in game to use for number crunching, but nat blocks are almost a standard in most games, ALWAYS on 2 player maps, and often on 4 player maps.

On November 30 2010 01:51 Phrencys wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/35o22a5

9 Overlord
14 Spawning Pool
16 Hatchery (send @200 mineral) > +5 (10 sec)
15 Queen > Spawn Larvae[auto]
17 Overlord
18 Extractor > +3 (2 sec)
20 Overlord
20 Queen > Creep Tumor
32 Overlord
40 Overlord
48 Overlord
56 Overlord
7:00 Checkpoint

I've yet to find a hatch first BO that can match the economy of the above BO.

On November 27 2010 08:56 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
Pool first is 100% better than hatch first in every single scenario. Since there are pro gamers that hatch first, many people will mindlessly copy without question.

If you run a side-by-side comparison and race to 50 drones, you'll find that hatch first and pool first both reach it at about the same time. The only difference is, pool first grants you much more flexibility and is a safer opening build.

There is absolutely no reason to hatch first in any matchup, on any map, ever.

On November 30 2010 07:29 CarbonTwelve wrote:
I've been using my app (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168348) to try and get a hatch first build and similar to Lomilar's it almost never uses it. I think the reason is that having your queen out early compensates for the larva & hence gives you more drones faster, as such making the economics for it better. I'm guessing others have said as much in the thread already, just wanted to point out that my app basically confirms the results seen in Lomilar's app.

Now i tend to believe that pros are correct in doing this build but the commentators are wrong in calling it the more economic build.

On November 30 2010 07:39 Cambam wrote:
Good to know that another BO optimizer agrees. Btw, I didn't know your app did zerg too, I'll have to check it out.

On November 30 2010 08:26 jgreen46 wrote:
14 hatch 15 pool is way better than these builds you're doing...

nobody does these builds cause you lose to rush

On November 30 2010 07:29 CarbonTwelve wrote:
I've been using my app (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168348) to try and get a hatch first build and similar to Lomilar's it almost never uses it. I think the reason is that having your queen out early compensates for the larva & hence gives you more drones faster, as such making the economics for it better. I'm guessing others have said as much in the thread already, just wanted to point out that my app basically confirms the results seen in Lomilar's app.

On November 30 2010 07:39 Cambam wrote:
Good to know that another BO optimizer agrees. Btw, I didn't know your app did zerg too, I'll have to check it out.

Does it have creep tumor available as a requirement? I'd really like to see what BO optimizer thinks if you require a creep tumor by 4:30 or something. After watching Ret's game this morning where he had 75% of metalopolis covered in creep, I really think getting that early tumor is significant and would cause the BO optimizer to maybe consider going hatch first to get a 2nd queen faster. Right now, it just spits as soon as each queen spawns, but if it had to use a creep tumor with the first 25 energy, it would probably either get the first queen sooner or get a second queen sooner.

On November 30 2010 07:53 Skrag wrote:
There are a lot of problems with build order optimizers, meaning that real, actual, in-game testing is important.

An optimizer can give you ideas, or starting points, but you cannot simply take its results at face value without doing your own in-game testing

On November 30 2010 09:10 icezar wrote:
Yes, but that is exactly the problem with you apps, they give you the fastest way to something.
But how a bout the most economic build that can also hold a rush? Something versatile...
If you say, i need a BO but i know what i want to build only after i scout, i might want 10 lings ASAP, i might want strong economy or, i don`t know, i have not played so much as a pro does...

On November 30 2010 09:30 CarbonTwelve wrote:


Yeah, I need to find a mod to change the thread title. It'll support Terran too soon (hopefully soon, working on it now).



You can specify the number of creep tumors you want. I think there's a bug with it though as requesting say 5 creep tumors and 10 drones works fine, but if you do 5 creep tumors and 30 drones it starts going crazy and never satisfies the target. Will play with that one a bit more...

On November 30 2010 09:30 CarbonTwelve wrote:


Yeah, I need to find a mod to change the thread title. It'll support Terran too soon (hopefully soon, working on it now).



You can specify the number of creep tumors you want. I think there's a bug with it though as requesting say 5 creep tumors and 10 drones works fine, but if you do 5 creep tumors and 30 drones it starts going crazy and never satisfies the target. Will play with that one a bit more...

On November 30 2010 09:36 jdseemoreglass wrote:
How about a relevant question that is being ignored?
Do all these "optimizers" and "build testers" value drone mining equally, or do they factor in diminishing marginal value relative to increasing marginal saturation?

If they do not do this, then all of these pool first results are wrong. In the testing I have done so far, hatch first is ALWAYS ahead in total minerals mined. Unless someone can produce a replay that can surpass 2710 minerals mined or 44.58 drones by the 6 minute mark, then all of these discussed builds are inferior to the builds leading on my thread.

On November 30 2010 07:50 Skrag wrote:
I just tested 14pool/16hatch vs 15hatch/15pool vs 16pool/16hatch, on lost temple at 9oclock. (Yes, map and start position do make a difference, you can't directly compare numbers from different maps or even different starting spots)

In each build, I built an extractor at 18, although I think in the 16pool version I ordered it a little differently putting it slightly later, and therefore with more gas.

At the 7 minute mark, this is what they all had:

14pool 16 hatch
625/340 58/60
6 drones 3/17
1 OL 17/25
Spawn 36/40 & 8/40
1 larva

...

On November 30 2010 09:58 CarbonTwelve wrote:
...

It's interesting, the exact number of drones you request seems to give quite different results. For instance, 44 drones does indeed go for hatch before pool (however it does 11 hatch 10 pool and completes at 5:49), but if you go for 40 drones it does a 10 pool 16 hatch build (completes 5:32), or 42 drones does 11 pool 17 hatch (5:39).

I suspect that the answer is that both builds give you good economies, just at slightly different points in time.

On November 30 2010 10:12 icezar wrote:
But again that is just the fastest way to get x drones, i can guarantee you that 11hatch 10 pool is very behind in minerals mined even if at 5:49 it has more drones and will never catch on an normal build.

On November 30 2010 10:06 Cambam wrote:
I like the idea of finely specifying waypoint requirements. I think it would be cool to do something like an earlier poster did and note the timings that a pro like fruitdealer gets his zerglings and creep tumors and drones and such and plug those timings in as waypoints and see if the optimizer can improve. CarbonTwelve's app allows you to require creep tumors.

This will give us a much more realistic BO instead of "fastest way to get 50 drones mining only minerals".

On November 30 2010 10:19 CarbonTwelve wrote:


Yeah, I was thinking it'd be a good idea to set minerals mined as a target. Will add that to the list...

On November 27 2010 09:12 IcyPringle wrote:
Instead of debating and rambling on why doesn't a zerg player or op just test out the 3 builds and give us some times/data so we can look at and actually KNOW which build is the best.

On November 30 2010 09:10 icezar wrote:
Yes, but that is exactly the problem with you apps, they give you the fastest way to something.

On November 30 2010 09:58 CarbonTwelve wrote:
It's interesting, the exact number of drones you request seems to give quite different results. For instance, 44 drones does indeed go for hatch before pool (however it does 11 hatch 10 pool and completes at 5:49), but if you go for 40 drones it does a 10 pool 16 hatch build (completes 5:32), or 42 drones does 11 pool 17 hatch (5:39).

I suspect that the answer is that both builds give you good economies, just at slightly different points in time.

On November 30 2010 10:01 icezar wrote:

You did something wrong, i just tested this exactly how you said and i get:
14pool 16hatch
734/368 60/60
2 drones 12/17
2 OL 9/25
Spawn 3/40 $ just finished
6 larva

On November 30 2010 11:55 Skrag wrote:
And this is why I have no faith in the optimizers for this sort of thing. It's very easy to demonstrate that any 10pool is easily surpassed economically. The faster queen simply does not make up for the fact that you're wasting larvae spawn time, and slowing everything else down.

As my 11Overpool example showed, it's not nearly as bad as people thing, but those builds *will* be at an economic disadvantage, and the fact that the optimizer says different doesn't make it so.

On November 30 2010 12:15 CarbonTwelve wrote:


Personally I'd like to see proof that it's 'easily surpassed economically' before dismissing the optimiser so readily. At the moment I don't have enough time to do any testing or calculations of my own, but I do have a lot of faith in the optimiser I've built, and if it finds that 10 pool 16 hatch allows it to achieve the result faster, I'm fairly confident that that is indeed the case, or at the very least it isn't a significant disadvantage.

On November 30 2010 12:22 jdseemoreglass wrote:unless you think there is a significant flaw in our testing methods.

On November 30 2010 12:22 jdseemoreglass wrote:
uh, hey guys... I've pointed you in the direction of tests and results several times now. We have significant data on 10 pool, overpool, 14 pool, 16 pool, 14 hatch, 16 hatch, and more... You can use this to compare to the results of the optimizers, unless you think there is a significant flaw in our testing methods.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481

On November 27 2010 22:06 UncleOwnage wrote:
There's one factor nobody takes into consideration; minerals aren't yours until mined/secured. This of course, requires a bit of explanation.
If you can't secure an extra base, even if it's your natural, you have no way of knowing if you'll ever get those minerals. Usually, your main is secure by default, only in rare cases will you not be able to mine your main out.
This brings me to the main point: 20 drones spread on your main and natural is better than 20 drones on your main, because with 10 drones on your natural, you will mine minerals you haven't (completely) secured yet. This will leave your "secured" mineral patches in your main left with more minerals, giving you more time mining there.
It's a sort of meta-game theory, in that some would argue "minerals mined are minerals mined, no matter where from", but I feel (and this is very crucial, this thinking is VERY subjective) that mining from any other base than your main as early as possible is beneficial.
If you later have to give up your natural, you will then have more minerals in your main to fall back on. This theory might also be more important for races that can one/two-base efficiently (I'm protoss, for the record).

On November 30 2010 12:22 jdseemoreglass wrote:


uh, hey guys... I've pointed you in the direction of tests and results several times now. We have significant data on 10 pool, overpool, 14 pool, 16 pool, 14 hatch, 16 hatch, and more... You can use this to compare to the results of the optimizers, unless you think there is a significant flaw in our testing methods.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481

On November 30 2010 12:50 CarbonTwelve wrote:


Yeah, and this basically confirms that the economy of 11 pool 18 hatch is pretty close to 16 hatch 15 pool (based on there being slightly fewer minerals mined, but more drones meaning higher income, which should balanced out the minerals mined), which is what I was suggesting. That's why I say I'd like to see some proof from Skrag that 10 or 11 pool is 'easily surpassed economically'.

On November 30 2010 12:05 Skrag wrote:


Ok, beyond the obvious questions (did you do it on lost temple at the 9 oclock position? 12oclock will give different results), it just doesn't matter if I did something wrong compared to you. I did things the same way for *myself* in every game, down to making sure I got the same split at the beginning (and restarting yabot if I misclicked), which still leaves a valid comparison between *my* 14pool 16hatch and *my* 15hatch 15pool.

If you're slightly more optimal in doing everything than I am, that really just doesn't matter. Because whatever inefficiencies I have as a player will be consistent from game to game. Although to be perfectly honest, I'm really suspecting you played at 12-oclock or on a different map altogether, because I'm not 100% on the ball, but there's no way I'm *that* far off.

On November 30 2010 18:43 icezar wrote:
I think what you did wrong in your test is you wait for your queen at expansion while i build my second queen asap on base an move my first queen to natural.

On November 30 2010 18:51 Skrag wrote:
Still, though, what you're showing is that 14pool/16hatch is *equal* to 15hatch/15pool (and after some more testing, I suspect 14hatch/14pool will do slightly better), where the original claim is that it was better.

On November 30 2010 20:00 CarbonTwelve wrote:


While it might not necessarily be 'better' in terms of economy, you have to admit that it's certainly a LOT safer due to having the pool out much earlier. Given relatively equal economies I can't see any significant advantage for hatch before pool. The only one I can think of is avoiding being blocked, but then having the pool out earlier would deal with that anyway.

On November 30 2010 18:40 Skrag wrote:
What we truly care about is "what opening lets me best execute A, B, or C, because it gets X resources the fastest", which is a very different question, and one that can't be answered by a simple drone race.

On November 30 2010 21:51 icezar wrote:
I do not agree totally. Hatch first has more larvae or at least faster at the beginning this helps you to hold any attacks.

On November 30 2010 21:51 icezar wrote:
I think the problem with your app is that it is not real enough, if you test a build from it you cannot do it exactly, you will always be a few seconds behind, and Hatch first does not require drone transfer, with pool first you have to transfer some drones and this is not taking into consideration.

Edit: a good example is 9 OV, your app alawys thinks 10 OV ExtrTrick is better but if you test it in game it is not if you pool later than 13

While it might not necessarily be 'better' in terms of economy, you have to admit that it's certainly a LOT safer due to having the pool out much earlier. Given relatively equal economies I can't see any significant advantage for hatch before pool. The only one I can think of is avoiding being blocked, but then having the pool out earlier would deal with that anyway.

On November 27 2010 08:56 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
Pool first is 100% better than hatch first in every single scenario. Since there are pro gamers that hatch first, many people will mindlessly copy without question.

If you run a side-by-side comparison and race to 50 drones, you'll find that hatch first and pool first both reach it at about the same time. The only difference is, pool first grants you much more flexibility and is a safer opening build.

There is absolutely no reason to hatch first in any matchup, on any map, ever.

On December 14 2010 21:03 Ghad wrote:



Wow, this makes me take notice at least, as I remember you going fast expo every single game some times back on your stream.