• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:25
CEST 13:25
KST 20:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week1[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation14$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced6Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL67
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Season 1 - Final Week Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation TL Team Map Contest #4: Winners Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL [G] Progamer Settings ASL20 Preliminary Maps
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Positive Thoughts on Setting Up a Dual-Caliber FX
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 628 users

[D] Why would you ever hatch first?

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Bitters
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada303 Posts
October 28 2010 14:54 GMT
#1
Obviously lots of the top zerg players utilize hatchery first builds. However, is there any real advantage to this or is it just a preference or old broodwar mentality?

Watching Destiny's stream last night (and confirming the results in my own games) we saw that doing a pool before hatchery build maintains the same economy (if not slightly better) than putting down a 14 or 15 hatchery first. The pool first can hang (or surpass) the economy of the hatchery first build up to 30 supply, and even further up to 50 supply.

With constant larvae injections and only creating mineral drones (ignoring other tech buildings or gas extraction), both builds get to the 50 supply mark just after 6 minutes.

So without having an economic advantage in going hatch first, why are top zergs doing this and giving up the safety net of the early pool (which would make dealing with early cheese/harass easier)?
Coufu
Profile Joined July 2010
Guam137 Posts
October 28 2010 14:57 GMT
#2
Because it takes a hatchery a while to build. If you can do so safely, you have secured an expansion and creeps start spreading earlier too, which is helpful for your units.

I remember there being some talk about 14 pool 15 hatch vs 14 hatch because the earlier queen may give you more larva than an earlier hatch, but I think the fact that you can begin building two queens at just about the same time with a 14 hatch makes it that much better while you get a 3rd queen and tech to lair.

Bitters
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada303 Posts
October 28 2010 15:04 GMT
#3
in a 2 queen race, the pool first build still produces more larvae and economy than getting 2 queens at the same time with a hatch first

by time you're considering a third queen or lair tech, both builds would be pretty much even so there's not a difference

it seems to me the hatch first really only lets you get creep flowing at your natural (since you wont be saturated at your main at this point, you're not getting a big econ advantage transferring drones on the early hatch)

so is it simply earlier creep at natural vs. being able to get zerglings/queen out faster to react to proxy bunkers or pylons?
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
October 28 2010 15:06 GMT
#4
On October 28 2010 23:54 Bitters wrote:
Obviously lots of the top zerg players utilize hatchery first builds. However, is there any real advantage to this or is it just a preference or old broodwar mentality?

Watching Destiny's stream last night (and confirming the results in my own games) we saw that doing a pool before hatchery build maintains the same economy (if not slightly better) than putting down a 14 or 15 hatchery first. The pool first can hang (or surpass) the economy of the hatchery first build up to 30 supply, and even further up to 50 supply.

With constant larvae injections and only creating mineral drones (ignoring other tech buildings or gas extraction), both builds get to the 50 supply mark just after 6 minutes.

So without having an economic advantage in going hatch first, why are top zergs doing this and giving up the safety net of the early pool (which would make dealing with early cheese/harass easier)?


You need to be more specific. Which matchup are you talking about? Regarding TvZ, the advantage of going hatch first is obvious; it lets you set up your expansion with creep, a sunken, and the like. As to ZvZ, the question is interesting.
Bitters
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada303 Posts
October 28 2010 15:12 GMT
#5
I'm considering all races.. since I'm used to hatch first, I was really curious about the pool first seemingly matching or surpassing the economy of my build

In ZvP, I imagine a pool first build lets you deal with canon rush better than hatch first (or some possible two gate push) since you can get lings out faster

Similarly in ZvT, the pool first allows access to lings to stop any proxy bunker play. If you want to throw down a spine to prevent hellions at the natural... well is going something like 14p/15q/15hatch going to be too slow of timing to stop that?
bevey
Profile Joined April 2010
United States16 Posts
October 28 2010 15:37 GMT
#6
Hatchery first is optimal for a few reasons
1 - Creep spread: It allows your zerglings and roaches to defend against hellions and early harass
2 - Larva: One of the resources that you are starved for in the beginning of the game is larva
3 - Early Static Defense: Since you need creep to build on the earlier you get your hatch up the earlier you can put down a spine crawler.
4 - Wall ins: Since everyone walls in vs zerg early pressure is very risky because it puts pressure on you to do dmg which is very hard to do against people with wall ins. Since early pressure is so risky many people decide to go for an economic opening and hatch first is the way as stated above.
Bitters
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada303 Posts
October 28 2010 15:53 GMT
#7
On October 29 2010 00:37 bevey wrote:
Hatchery first is optimal for a few reasons
1 - Creep spread: It allows your zerglings and roaches to defend against hellions and early harass
2 - Larva: One of the resources that you are starved for in the beginning of the game is larva
3 - Early Static Defense: Since you need creep to build on the earlier you get your hatch up the earlier you can put down a spine crawler.
4 - Wall ins: Since everyone walls in vs zerg early pressure is very risky because it puts pressure on you to do dmg which is very hard to do against people with wall ins. Since early pressure is so risky many people decide to go for an economic opening and hatch first is the way as stated above.


1- could see faster creep at nat being beneficial
2- you don't get more larvae doing hatch before pool, that's why i made this thread
3- similar to 1, but you can get access to lings/queen faster for defense as well
4- my first post highlights that there is no economic benefit of hatch first
itsthewoo
Profile Joined October 2010
United States260 Posts
October 28 2010 16:10 GMT
#8
Hatch first makes it so that you have creep at your natural to lay down spine crawlers. The two queens can block the ramp while your spine crawlers protect the drones/hatchery.
Nafaltar
Profile Joined May 2008
Germany302 Posts
October 28 2010 16:14 GMT
#9
With the exception of Bunkers/pylon+Cannon at ramp hatch first, lets you secure the expansion safer than going for the earlier pool. (For example if you scout a chronoed 10 gate you can still save your expansion with a 14 hatch, while a 14 pool would possibly result in having to delay the hatchery or risk getting it cancelled before it finishes)
Bitters
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada303 Posts
October 28 2010 16:19 GMT
#10
so the consensus seems to be the early creep for faster spines?
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
October 28 2010 16:19 GMT
#11
The timings are amazingly more smooth with hatch first, and getting out those two queens in order to fend off any harassment is crucial. If you want to go an econ build there's no question on going hatch first. Quite simply you're going to have a harder time vs early aggression if you want to drone whore with a pool first. So if you pool first usually you end up making lings earlier to contain him early on, etc. The queen timings are also a lot more awkward.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-28 16:30:29
October 28 2010 16:28 GMT
#12
For me hatch first is good because the hatch starts producing larva right away, while you need the queen and injection time to get an economical refund on 14 pool. Larva can be used for lings in case you need them and 2 fast queens help a lot in defence. In fact I dont know if 14 pool is safer. And if you like fast queen so much why dont you play 11 pool instead? You would be surprised how economical it is if you go drone heavy.
jgreen46
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada94 Posts
October 28 2010 16:31 GMT
#13
simply because you can

zvp and zvt at least
Brusko651
Profile Joined August 2010
34 Posts
October 28 2010 16:32 GMT
#14
wtf apparently almost everyone in this thread didn't even read the OT. He said several times that you do NOt get more larva or economy from hatch first -.-'
so why is everyone mentioning larva and economy in favor of the hatch first build.
hoovehand
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-28 16:36:07
October 28 2010 16:34 GMT
#15
how can you not get more larva from a second hatch?

the difference is minimal, but you still get the larva earlier which means you can spend your minerals earlier and get more units out earlier.

also, if you wait before hatch there's a greater chance the opposing player can pressure and make it far more difficult to claim.
Toxigen
Profile Joined July 2010
United States390 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-28 16:44:41
October 28 2010 16:44 GMT
#16
There's something to consider about early game larva -- it's not always as limiting as a lot of people make it out to be. Often, I find that if I hatch first and use all my energy on inject, I can't use all my larvae right away anyway -- I'm waiting on minerals.

It's not easy to measure this, but it seems that hatch first allows you to still have extra larvae early but use your queen's starting energy to get aggressive creep spread instead of injecting.

I'd say that the biggest benefit to hatch first is creep spread at almost no economical detriment (but the flip-side is that the build is mildly more vulnerable to committed pressure early on).
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
October 28 2010 16:46 GMT
#17
On October 29 2010 01:32 Brusko651 wrote:
wtf apparently almost everyone in this thread didn't even read the OT. He said several times that you do NOt get more larva or economy from hatch first -.-'
so why is everyone mentioning larva and economy in favor of the hatch first build.


Because if you read my post you'd see that trying to drone whore off a pool first build is much more dangerous than drone whore off a hatch first build. So if you want to play econ, if you can pull off the hatch first, it's going to set you better up for econ. If you go pool first but want to play econ, it's much riskier.
MorsCerta
Profile Joined October 2010
United States234 Posts
October 28 2010 16:47 GMT
#18
Perhaps you do not get more larvae, but you get more at one moment. When your two queens pop and if you choose to inject rather than spread immediately, that is 8 larvae at one moment, while the maximum you could have on one hatchery is 7 and thats if you pool your larvae for some reason. Having 8 larvae at one moment can be beneficial if you are under pressure as opposed to having 4 at one moment and then 1 at a time. All your units come out at once.

You also have an easier time choosing when to drone and when to make an army I find. If I have 2 bases worth of larvae in early game and am under pressure, I can still make some drones. If I have one base worth of larvae and only 1 queen thats not only less defense, but less drones.
If I was you then I would prolly hate on me too. http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MorsCerta
Bitters
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada303 Posts
October 28 2010 16:48 GMT
#19
hoove, the faster injection from the 13 or 14 pool queen makes up for not taking the slightly faster hatch... you guys can test this yourself, but as i said, you don't get more drones or larvae with hatch first. they are very very close, with the pool first sometimes edging it out SLIGHTLY.

and like i already said, im used to and usually go hatch first... but i'm trying to question my own play here and wanted some input.. i'm not trying to attack or advocate anything, just looking for some answers

a build like 14pool, 15 OL, 15 queen and hatch (start queen first then immediately put down hatch when you have the minerals, the timing is pretty close) matches (or slightly beats) doing a 15 hatch, 14 pool into queens when ready opener...

both builds are fast expanding (hatching before 18 food), so its not like you are one-basing
Turkis
Profile Joined September 2010
United States11 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-28 16:51:17
October 28 2010 16:50 GMT
#20
Another very large benefit is the option/freedom to drop your first 25 energy of your queen on a creep tumor. Because at the your first larva injection would pop you wouldn't be able to spend all your resources on a hatch first build, the first larva injection can go to a creep tumor further spreading your early defense as well as getting you a jump on later creep spread.

I think it ultimately comes down to a fully built hatch being much easier to defend due to creep spread and vision.
1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RSL Revival
10:00
Season 1: Playoffs Day 5
ByuN vs SHINLIVE!
Clem vs Reynor
Crank 1391
Tasteless971
ComeBackTV 753
IndyStarCraft 148
Rex122
3DClanTV 94
IntoTheiNu 52
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Crank 1391
Tasteless 971
RotterdaM 156
IndyStarCraft 148
Rex 122
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 23201
Sea 19344
Rain 5241
Bisu 2754
Jaedong 899
Light 817
Hyuk 763
Pusan 602
firebathero 423
Mini 397
[ Show more ]
Stork 288
actioN 263
Zeus 219
EffOrt 203
Backho 179
Hyun 162
ToSsGirL 128
Soulkey 109
hero 69
Mind 60
JYJ41
sSak 36
Aegong 26
Shinee 25
Sharp 24
Sacsri 23
Snow 23
Rush 23
JulyZerg 21
sorry 20
Icarus 18
Noble 16
Free 15
Sea.KH 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 12
IntoTheRainbow 11
yabsab 11
Hm[arnc] 9
Sexy 8
NaDa 7
sas.Sziky 5
Movie 5
SilentControl 5
ivOry 4
Dota 2
Gorgc6550
XaKoH 497
XcaliburYe363
League of Legends
singsing1703
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss787
x6flipin500
allub260
flusha1
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor144
Other Games
tarik_tv23874
B2W.Neo568
shahzam541
crisheroes517
DeMusliM352
Fuzer 263
Liquid`RaSZi160
Pyrionflax145
SortOf98
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick27074
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 660
lovetv 10
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• tankgirl 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2131
League of Legends
• Stunt516
Upcoming Events
OSC
1h 35m
Replay Cast
12h 35m
RSL Revival
22h 35m
Classic vs Cure
FEL
1d 4h
OSC
1d 8h
RSL Revival
1d 22h
FEL
2 days
FEL
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.