EPT[D] Why would you ever hatch first? - Page 4
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
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drsnuggles
Korea (South)362 Posts
Well and as already mentioned 20+ times, you get your sunken at a better position, better creep spread and IMO you have the opportunity to take the battle away from your main base towards the natural, providing more safety to your drones at the main. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On October 29 2010 06:47 CharlieMurphy wrote: Map presence/Map control. Creep to make spines etc. Creep spread for tumors etc. More hatch = more queens faster if needed More geyser access faster. Some of the maps have 1 or more badly placed geysers in the main and nats, so often times my 2nd gas will be at the nat where it's a better positioning. also, 1 base with 30 drones is not as good as 2 bases with 15 drones. They mine more efficiently. And a side effect of this is the bases last longer. Map control ? What a joke. 2 glings is better than having a blind expanding hatch unless maybe you use ur 2nd overlord near it. Creep to make spines. Ok that's the ONLY pro i could have got from all my experiences. Creep spread for tumors. What ? you can also do it with pool first. Hell you can have 1 additionnal creep tumor by going pool first. More queens ? If a 3 sec (in game, real game is like 1,5 sec) later 2nd queen from pool first's build is having slower queens then ok. After the 2nd queen, more queens is just the same from both builds. Just that hatch first get queens 1,5 real sec earlier. About gas, like someone mentionned above, you don't need a 2nd gas relatively early in 99 of most Z's opening. Debattable. About saturation. Again you won't have 30 drones before you get ur 2nd hatch ready. You can easily maynard the drones before reaching saturation. I'm sorry if i'm really upset, but what i want to point it out is that if the progamers are doing it, it's not because of economy or larvaes management. There must be probably something we aren't aware of, which i'm pretty sure this include 99% of the TL.net's ppl. And i'm pretty sure some of the progamers doesn't know exactly why they're doing it, beside maybe for not having ur expand delayed. Meh. I'm tired, good night. But plz before making any theorycrafting argument, try the builds yourself before saying what are the pros and cons cauz most of the statements are simply false. | ||
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FPSKeNz
91 Posts
And then, test getting Pool first and then Hatch. But then oh wait, it's not only 40 seconds later due to that stupid Pylon/Engineering Bay blocking the expansion. While that is happening, damn, my opponent's Nexus and 1 rax FE is 1/4 done. | ||
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Killerbot
United States106 Posts
On October 29 2010 12:52 RaiZ wrote: And i'm pretty sure some of the progamers doesn't know exactly why they're doing it, beside maybe for not having ur expand delayed. Meh. I'm tired, good night. But plz before making any theorycrafting argument, try the builds yourself before saying what are the pros and cons cauz most of the statements are simply false. Ding ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner, hatch first makes it very hard for a Terran or toss to deny said expansion, whereas expansion later can be denied by a manner pylon or engineering bay or even bunker depending on hatch timing. Sure you can eventually kill said building with the lings you went first but that takes more time and DELAYS you, and if its a cannon contain, then you need more than lings, which takes even more time. Hatch first is safe and is equal with pool first and GUARANTEES an early expansion. | ||
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TheHit
United States36 Posts
1) You are able to make a defense of a couple spine crawlers to prevent early harass 2) Speedlings arent necessary too early when the zerglings are playing defensively on cliffs. Theres also the extra larva. I know the earlier queen can inject larva but why not have the fast hatch and then fast creep tumor to help see early harass.. earlier. And more speed to the speedlings as well as more mobility for the queens. Btw i fast hatch against 1800 point Zerg players and win constantly. Unless they 6-7 pool which hasnt ever happened in league play. | ||
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TooL
Canada275 Posts
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
i'm of the assumption that hatch first gives you an expansion faster, before the non-zerg can do silly expansion blocking trickery, because it does. i prefer to be ahead of a non-zerg in expansions, because no matter what, i lose my macro advantage (see: the advantage that matters most) if i'm not. as long as i can hatch ASAP, and i can defend that hatch well, give me an expansion over being safe. sure, you don't die *now* with pool, but if he blocks your expansion, and then starts expanding before you do, you die later, which is still dying. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On October 29 2010 13:03 Killerbot wrote: Ding ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner, hatch first makes it very hard for a Terran or toss to deny said expansion, whereas expansion later can be denied by a manner pylon or engineering bay or even bunker depending on hatch timing. Sure you can eventually kill said building with the lings you went first but that takes more time and DELAYS you, and if its a cannon contain, then you need more than lings, which takes even more time. Hatch first is safe and is equal with pool first and GUARANTEES an early expansion. Why did i say "beside not having our expo delayed" ? I dunno about you but i always send my 2nd ovi near T or P's base along with the first. So having no visions against bunk reaper or canon behind natural mineral's line isn't nice when you go hatch first. | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
More queens ? If a 3 sec (in game, real game is like 1,5 sec) later 2nd queen from pool first's build is having slower queens then ok. After the 2nd queen, more queens is just the same from both builds. Just that hatch first get queens 1,5 real sec earlier. Wait what? You only build two queens in ZvP and ZvT? | ||
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itsme
Canada46 Posts
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LegendLength
19 Posts
I've always believed hatch first is best but this is making me strongly reconsider. I don't understand the few comments that said, when going hatch first, the queens are free to place a creep tumor. I find there is enough minerals to keep creating drones out of the larvae using constant injection from the start. Although there are some 1 - 2 second pauses occasionally when waiting for 50 minerals. The build exact build order is: 9 overlord 13 scout 16 hatch 15 pool 18 extractor 17 overlord 25 overlord All larvae are converted to drones except for a zergling at 19. It also includes getting zergling speed as soon as 100 gas arrives (and not taking the drones off gas afterwards). | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On October 29 2010 13:38 Ziggitz wrote: Wait what? You only build two queens in ZvP and ZvT? No. I'm saying that both build have 2 queens at almost the same time, hatch first getting the 2nd queen from 1 to 5 ingame second earlier than pool first. After that it doesn't matter, you get ur 3rd or 4th queens the same time just that hatch first will still get them 1,5 sec earlier in general assuming you don't stop building queens. That's why i prefer building pool first for every matchup since i see almost no advantages from going hatch first. | ||
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Brusko651
34 Posts
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On October 29 2010 19:37 Brusko651 wrote: hmm a lot of people here mentioned that a later hatch might get delayed by engineering bay and such. But isn't this danger even greater for hatch-first? If you build the pool first, you can at least have two zerglings and possibly more to defend against those kinds of cheese. Exactly. Everyone saying ... ohhhh... pool first builds can get their hatch blocked. Yeah. And if you get your hatch first build blocked you're screwed since you have 200-400 minerals when your pool goes down at 14-16. Sometimes if your opponent sees your pool first he will cancel his warping in pylon because he's greedy. Also with pool first you get your hatch down FASTER if you get your natural blocked since you have lings SOONER to destroy the blocking building. in terms of getting your hatch down as soon and as reliably as possible pool first is DEFINITELY better since almost every player knows that Z like to hatch first and will be aware of the drone coming down or will just blindly put something there. I will test both builds economy-, creep and early pressure-wise once i get home, but so far it really looks like hatch first is - even though hatch first should give more eco, right? RIGHT? - actually inferior to pool first in terms of an opening- | ||
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sycknesS
United States83 Posts
The only 2 real benefits from the 15hatch/14 pool are a) Harder (or a lesser chance) that your hatchery will be blocked with a pylon/engie bay b) faster creep spread at your expo (very small I think) The benefit from the 14pool/15 hatch is that you are able to deal with cheesey play earlier (cannons, proxies, or very early pressure). I would 14pool/15 hatch if I knew I could get my hatch down 100% every game, yet now I am beginning to wonder how often the delay will actually delay your 2nd hatch into 20+ supply (from blocks). Even in tourney play, cheese is always a possibility which makes me think the 14pool/15hatch is safer. Yet, in reality if they aren't cheesing, the 15hatch/14 pool is a better bet because you have less of a chance that your hatch will be blocked. On a 2 player map they will most likely block even the 15hatch (a good player should know the timings on all the maps - sure they might have to send out an earlier scout on Jungle/Xel`Naga, but if they want to block, they can), so pool first is probably better (also because of a higher chance of cheese/very early pressure). On a 4 player map 15 hatch may be the way to go because there is a good chance you wont be scouted first, meaning they would have to send out a very early probe/scv in order to get a block off against a 15hatch. Although, there is still the chance you will get cheesed/early pressured here, so it is more of a question on a 4 player map. In this case it's very hard to tell which is better because you're comparing the chance of cheese to the chance of getting scouted early/blocked. Even still, I am not sure about the timings on the 4player maps. What I mean by this is, how early do they have to send out a scout in order to block in these 3 scenarios: a) 3rd base scouted he finds you b) 2nd base scouted he finds you c) 1st base scouted he finds you The other points are negligible/don't make sense imo. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
- lower chance of it getting blocked by a scout. (this is the biggest reason to go 14 hatch imo) - hatchery finishes earlier which can make it easier to defend in some cases. (against early pressure it will have more hitpoints, your creep is spread faster and you can put down a spine earlier) There seriously are hardly any other reasons to go hatch first except that perhaps some people find it fits with certain builds better. The 2nd queen finishes at almost the same time in both builds and the creep tumor spread is virtually the same as well really. Hatch first you can put a creep tumor at the natural straight away a bit easier, pool first is slightly easier for a fast creep tumor at the main. I think 14 hatch is a bit better if you are not being scouted yet or are fairly certain you can put the hatch down without it being blocked. 14 pool is better in other cases imo (such as 2 player maps) because it's safer against cheeses, stops their scouting earlier and most importantly makes it harder to guess for the opponent what you are doing. Against 14 hatch I find it much easier to do a greedy expansion build whereas vs 14 pool the threat of early lings is much better and thus you can't expand as easily. | ||
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Tef
Sweden443 Posts
more gas? This is needed if you want to go muta or any other gas expensive build.. | ||
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sycknesS
United States83 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
I ran some tests using the build order tester, and it turns out that you lose almost nothing in terms of speed if you're going pure drones, if you 10 pool link to thread/discussion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164575¤tpage=2#37 I'm not sure what this implies, being a big fan of hatch first v terran and pool first v toss... but I think I'll start experimenting with the 10pool/16hatch opening. It greatly increases flexibility in dealing with cheese and early attacks. If the economy loss is as little as those very narrow results seem to indicate, then it's worth it on the cesspool of random all-ins and cheese that is ~1600 diamond. The build order to have 50 drones and 4 lings as fast as possible is: 10 SpawningPool M:204 G:0 10 Overlord M:100 G:0 13 Queen M:153 G:0 16 Hatchery M:305 G:0 17 Overlord M:108 G:0 19 Queen M:202 G:0 22 Overlord M:103 G:0 35 Overlord M:327 G:0 36 Overlord M:489 G:0 36 Queen M:605 G:0 39 Overlord M:405 G:0 40 Queen M:255 G:0 45 Zergling M:286 G:0 49 Zergling M:199 G:0 50 Overlord M:149 G:0 You can shave off a second using 3hatches and some weird timings, but this is the intermediate result that intrigued me... and the final result of the optimizer was only a second better than this (6:17 vs 6:18). oh, and obviously you want your lings out much earlier in a standard game, but the mineral loss from slightly slower drones is not going to slow you down too much. I also realize this is a simple test, and not an actual build. 50 drones blind is a terrible idea, this is just for discussion. | ||
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