|
Obviously lots of the top zerg players utilize hatchery first builds. However, is there any real advantage to this or is it just a preference or old broodwar mentality?
Watching Destiny's stream last night (and confirming the results in my own games) we saw that doing a pool before hatchery build maintains the same economy (if not slightly better) than putting down a 14 or 15 hatchery first. The pool first can hang (or surpass) the economy of the hatchery first build up to 30 supply, and even further up to 50 supply.
With constant larvae injections and only creating mineral drones (ignoring other tech buildings or gas extraction), both builds get to the 50 supply mark just after 6 minutes.
So without having an economic advantage in going hatch first, why are top zergs doing this and giving up the safety net of the early pool (which would make dealing with early cheese/harass easier)?
|
Because it takes a hatchery a while to build. If you can do so safely, you have secured an expansion and creeps start spreading earlier too, which is helpful for your units.
I remember there being some talk about 14 pool 15 hatch vs 14 hatch because the earlier queen may give you more larva than an earlier hatch, but I think the fact that you can begin building two queens at just about the same time with a 14 hatch makes it that much better while you get a 3rd queen and tech to lair.
|
in a 2 queen race, the pool first build still produces more larvae and economy than getting 2 queens at the same time with a hatch first
by time you're considering a third queen or lair tech, both builds would be pretty much even so there's not a difference
it seems to me the hatch first really only lets you get creep flowing at your natural (since you wont be saturated at your main at this point, you're not getting a big econ advantage transferring drones on the early hatch)
so is it simply earlier creep at natural vs. being able to get zerglings/queen out faster to react to proxy bunkers or pylons?
|
On October 28 2010 23:54 Bitters wrote:
Obviously lots of the top zerg players utilize hatchery first builds. However, is there any real advantage to this or is it just a preference or old broodwar mentality?
Watching Destiny's stream last night (and confirming the results in my own games) we saw that doing a pool before hatchery build maintains the same economy (if not slightly better) than putting down a 14 or 15 hatchery first. The pool first can hang (or surpass) the economy of the hatchery first build up to 30 supply, and even further up to 50 supply.
With constant larvae injections and only creating mineral drones (ignoring other tech buildings or gas extraction), both builds get to the 50 supply mark just after 6 minutes.
So without having an economic advantage in going hatch first, why are top zergs doing this and giving up the safety net of the early pool (which would make dealing with early cheese/harass easier)?
You need to be more specific. Which matchup are you talking about? Regarding TvZ, the advantage of going hatch first is obvious; it lets you set up your expansion with creep, a sunken, and the like. As to ZvZ, the question is interesting.
|
I'm considering all races.. since I'm used to hatch first, I was really curious about the pool first seemingly matching or surpassing the economy of my build
In ZvP, I imagine a pool first build lets you deal with canon rush better than hatch first (or some possible two gate push) since you can get lings out faster
Similarly in ZvT, the pool first allows access to lings to stop any proxy bunker play. If you want to throw down a spine to prevent hellions at the natural... well is going something like 14p/15q/15hatch going to be too slow of timing to stop that?
|
Hatchery first is optimal for a few reasons
1 - Creep spread: It allows your zerglings and roaches to defend against hellions and early harass
2 - Larva: One of the resources that you are starved for in the beginning of the game is larva
3 - Early Static Defense: Since you need creep to build on the earlier you get your hatch up the earlier you can put down a spine crawler.
4 - Wall ins: Since everyone walls in vs zerg early pressure is very risky because it puts pressure on you to do dmg which is very hard to do against people with wall ins. Since early pressure is so risky many people decide to go for an economic opening and hatch first is the way as stated above.
|
On October 29 2010 00:37 bevey wrote:
Hatchery first is optimal for a few reasons
1 - Creep spread: It allows your zerglings and roaches to defend against hellions and early harass
2 - Larva: One of the resources that you are starved for in the beginning of the game is larva
3 - Early Static Defense: Since you need creep to build on the earlier you get your hatch up the earlier you can put down a spine crawler.
4 - Wall ins: Since everyone walls in vs zerg early pressure is very risky because it puts pressure on you to do dmg which is very hard to do against people with wall ins. Since early pressure is so risky many people decide to go for an economic opening and hatch first is the way as stated above.
1- could see faster creep at nat being beneficial
2- you don't get more larvae doing hatch before pool, that's why i made this thread
3- similar to 1, but you can get access to lings/queen faster for defense as well
4- my first post highlights that there is no economic benefit of hatch first
|
Hatch first makes it so that you have creep at your natural to lay down spine crawlers. The two queens can block the ramp while your spine crawlers protect the drones/hatchery.
|
With the exception of Bunkers/pylon+Cannon at ramp hatch first, lets you secure the expansion safer than going for the earlier pool. (For example if you scout a chronoed 10 gate you can still save your expansion with a 14 hatch, while a 14 pool would possibly result in having to delay the hatchery or risk getting it cancelled before it finishes)
|
so the consensus seems to be the early creep for faster spines?
|
The timings are amazingly more smooth with hatch first, and getting out those two queens in order to fend off any harassment is crucial. If you want to go an econ build there's no question on going hatch first. Quite simply you're going to have a harder time vs early aggression if you want to drone whore with a pool first. So if you pool first usually you end up making lings earlier to contain him early on, etc. The queen timings are also a lot more awkward.
|
For me hatch first is good because the hatch starts producing larva right away, while you need the queen and injection time to get an economical refund on 14 pool. Larva can be used for lings in case you need them and 2 fast queens help a lot in defence. In fact I dont know if 14 pool is safer. And if you like fast queen so much why dont you play 11 pool instead? You would be surprised how economical it is if you go drone heavy.
|
simply because you can
zvp and zvt at least
|
wtf apparently almost everyone in this thread didn't even read the OT. He said several times that you do NOt get more larva or economy from hatch first -.-'
so why is everyone mentioning larva and economy in favor of the hatch first build.
|
how can you not get more larva from a second hatch?
the difference is minimal, but you still get the larva earlier which means you can spend your minerals earlier and get more units out earlier.
also, if you wait before hatch there's a greater chance the opposing player can pressure and make it far more difficult to claim.
|
There's something to consider about early game larva -- it's not always as limiting as a lot of people make it out to be. Often, I find that if I hatch first and use all my energy on inject, I can't use all my larvae right away anyway -- I'm waiting on minerals.
It's not easy to measure this, but it seems that hatch first allows you to still have extra larvae early but use your queen's starting energy to get aggressive creep spread instead of injecting.
I'd say that the biggest benefit to hatch first is creep spread at almost no economical detriment (but the flip-side is that the build is mildly more vulnerable to committed pressure early on).
|
On October 29 2010 01:32 Brusko651 wrote:
wtf apparently almost everyone in this thread didn't even read the OT. He said several times that you do NOt get more larva or economy from hatch first -.-'
so why is everyone mentioning larva and economy in favor of the hatch first build.
Because if you read my post you'd see that trying to drone whore off a pool first build is much more dangerous than drone whore off a hatch first build. So if you want to play econ, if you can pull off the hatch first, it's going to set you better up for econ. If you go pool first but want to play econ, it's much riskier.
|
Perhaps you do not get more larvae, but you get more at one moment. When your two queens pop and if you choose to inject rather than spread immediately, that is 8 larvae at one moment, while the maximum you could have on one hatchery is 7 and thats if you pool your larvae for some reason. Having 8 larvae at one moment can be beneficial if you are under pressure as opposed to having 4 at one moment and then 1 at a time. All your units come out at once.
You also have an easier time choosing when to drone and when to make an army I find. If I have 2 bases worth of larvae in early game and am under pressure, I can still make some drones. If I have one base worth of larvae and only 1 queen thats not only less defense, but less drones.
|
hoove, the faster injection from the 13 or 14 pool queen makes up for not taking the slightly faster hatch... you guys can test this yourself, but as i said, you don't get more drones or larvae with hatch first. they are very very close, with the pool first sometimes edging it out SLIGHTLY.
and like i already said, im used to and usually go hatch first... but i'm trying to question my own play here and wanted some input.. i'm not trying to attack or advocate anything, just looking for some answers
a build like 14pool, 15 OL, 15 queen and hatch (start queen first then immediately put down hatch when you have the minerals, the timing is pretty close) matches (or slightly beats) doing a 15 hatch, 14 pool into queens when ready opener...
both builds are fast expanding (hatching before 18 food), so its not like you are one-basing
|
Another very large benefit is the option/freedom to drop your first 25 energy of your queen on a creep tumor. Because at the your first larva injection would pop you wouldn't be able to spend all your resources on a hatch first build, the first larva injection can go to a creep tumor further spreading your early defense as well as getting you a jump on later creep spread.
I think it ultimately comes down to a fully built hatch being much easier to defend due to creep spread and vision.
|
On October 28 2010 23:54 Bitters wrote:
Obviously lots of the top zerg players utilize hatchery first builds. However, is there any real advantage to this or is it just a preference or old broodwar mentality?
Watching Destiny's stream last night (and confirming the results in my own games) we saw that doing a pool before hatchery build maintains the same economy (if not slightly better) than putting down a 14 or 15 hatchery first. The pool first can hang (or surpass) the economy of the hatchery first build up to 30 supply, and even further up to 50 supply.
With constant larvae injections and only creating mineral drones (ignoring other tech buildings or gas extraction), both builds get to the 50 supply mark just after 6 minutes.
So without having an economic advantage in going hatch first, why are top zergs doing this and giving up the safety net of the early pool (which would make dealing with early cheese/harass easier)?
With hatch-first, it's great to place 2 simultaneous creep tumors with both of your queens' first 25 energy since you don't really need to spawn larvae because of the 2-hatch larvae production. With a pool-first you only get one tumor early on. I'd say that's the thing that makes hatch-first the most comfortable to me.
|
On October 29 2010 01:50 Turkis wrote:
Another very large benefit is the option/freedom to drop your first 25 energy of your queen on a creep tumor. Because at the your first larva injection would pop you wouldn't be able to spend all your resources on a hatch first build, the first larva injection can go to a creep tumor further spreading your early defense as well as getting you a jump on later creep spread.
I think it ultimately comes down to a fully built hatch being much easier to defend due to creep spread and vision.
Exactly. In ZvT I always FE and when my queens pop I throw down a tumor at my nat and my main to connect the two. Then I can easily transfer queens back and forth and spine crawlers have a lot more room to work.
It's just safer.
I am pretty scared of FEing vs Toss though, I usually 15g-15p and then around 20-22 throw down my nat.
|
On October 29 2010 01:50 Turkis wrote:
Another very large benefit is the option/freedom to drop your first 25 energy of your queen on a creep tumor. Because at the your first larva injection would pop you wouldn't be able to spend all your resources on a hatch first build, the first larva injection can go to a creep tumor further spreading your early defense as well as getting you a jump on later creep spread.
I think it ultimately comes down to a fully built hatch being much easier to defend due to creep spread and vision.
this is exactly why i do it. use my queen for a creep tumor because i don't need to inject.
|
I hatch first for the two food 
|
The original post compares hatch first at the 6 minute mark getting to 50 supply. However, that's not the only point of measurement.
The biggest benefit I see is the earlier creep. Being able to get a spine down and built by the time early pressure arrives is huge. Otherwise it is quite difficult to react to pressure that is trying to contain you.
Furthermore, I find creep spread works better with 2 hatches. With pool first, all the first queen's energy goes into larva. However, with 2 hatches, you have enough larva to spend all of your money just from the hatches, freeing up energy to get an early creep tumor down. This makes a huge difference creep coverage at the 6 minute mark. Creep makes such a huge difference that I don't see why you would go pool first - it doesn't really buy you any benefit.
(EDIT - I see a couple of posts above already mentioned this - oops).
Also, in my experience, the timing works very well. Especially with the new patch changes, I have found it's very difficult to punish the early hatch on anything except the shortest maps. The only cases where I go pool first is vs Zerg (so many 6 pools or whatever) and/or if I scout some kind of all-in (cannon rush or some such).
Anyways - I think there are benefits to hatch first - mostly in terms of creep spread (allows you to get tumors started faster, and earlier spine crawlers) - and the benefits from earlier pool are just not really there to justify the pool first order.
Good luck...
|
tumors first is a good point on beginning creep spread (while having the second hatch still give some supplemental larvae)
|
Just curious about some of the details of your test such as which map you tested it on, lair timing* and whether or not you transfered drones.
*With hatch first and 2x queens you can lair once the queens finish. Depending on how you do pool->hatch the timings may be different, if you queue the 2nd queen from the main that delays your lair doesn't it?
Also with hatch first you lower the window where a player can block your hatchery. In addition you also have a backup plan. If you say 14 hatch and there's a probe there you can do 15 pool/14 hatch while you get rid of the probe with only a minor economic loss. If you go 15 pool then notice a blocking probe (that may not have been there earlier) you can compensate your build to handle it better really.
It's nice too because 14 hatch can be adjusted into 15pool/14hatch or 14gas/pool/20expand without a big loss. So it's flexible to things you may scout.
The #1 takeaway I'd have is that for a ZvZ FE I may want to pool first because it seems safer AND just as economical while creep spread isn't as important and there's less chance of a block.
|
Don't forget that hatch first will let you get more gas up for certain builds where you need it quickly.
|
Destiny/Steve Bonnell II (2200 diamond) was running the test on his stream
Simple test:
only make drones/overlords, don't take gas or do other tech (only dropping a pool for queen access). don't spread creep, only inject larvae.
as far as lair timing, if you queue your second queen at your first hatch, it shouldnt really delay your lair tech since a) you probably arent getting a lair before 20 supply anyway and b) you could always lair at your natural like some zergs have been doing
and with the expo blocking window, i disagree since most scouts arrive before your 14/15 hatch anyway and at my level (1600 diamond) they are blocking it then anyway... having a pool first allows you to make a pair of lings to chase them if needed (or kill pylons, etc, faster) or you can wait till they come to scout your main again since they didnt see you go for a 15 hatch
|
Question is, will you oversaturate your main in a 14 pool build? By oversaturate, I don't mean a true saturation, more like at the point where you get diminishing returns. With 2 bases, you can split 16 workers into 8 per base, with one base, that would be 16 on your main. A true saturation is like 24 drones, but I'm pretty sure 8 per base is more effective than 16 on one.
|
Hatcheries don't just pop up immediately, it has a build time before you can take advantage of its benefits. Why not get the 2nd one early when you don't need other kind of units other than drones/queens in the first 5 mins of the game? Plus this way your worker mining will be optimized sooner rather than becoming almost redundant in your first base.
By the time it's your theoretical optimal point(for 2nd hatch) you will be dealing with more problems since it's later on in the game and most likely pressured more.
|
jzerg, what games are you taking 3 gas before the 4 minute mark?
|
@ tobberoth, when testing we didnt reach over saturation at the main by time the second hatch was up
there is no point to split workers from the main if you are under 16 (no diminishing returns on mining under 16 i believe)
@ bubble, 15 hatch first finishes at 3:38, going 14pool/15ol/15queen/15hatch or something similar gets your second hatch done at around 4:15 the latest. the point originally was that you arent losing drones/econ doing the pool first, but you get the protection against bunker/canon proxies.
|
14 pool can transition to a roach rush, if you're feeling ballsy (or if his scout is dead/run away). Also, it might not be worth it to hatch first on maps where this "creep spread" doesn't ammount to an actual advantage. Delta Quadrant, where the enemy can go around your defensive crawlers and into your base comes to mind.
I usually do the 14 pool so I can "fake" the 15 hatch and do a 5RR with speedlings.
By "faking" the 15 hatch I mean sending a drone to your nat, where he will probably try to delay your hatch by being obnoxious. Attack his scv and act like you're being delayed by it. A few minutes later you'll attack and all he'll have are hellions and marines (or, as protoss, not enough stuff).
|
I'm a novice player, so my opinion doesn't really matter, but just in case you wanted to get into the minds of Zerg noobs....
To me, the virtue of having that second hatchery there is for the sake of more units and more economy...but not immediately. But, vs. T, that's not my problem. Your early lings are unneeded usually (and I mean very early lings, not after you Hatch + pool). Eventually, if I go a one base build, I need another hatchery (as spawning larvae with a queen with 1 hatch will quickly be inadequate), and I end up waiting for it to finish, whereas with a quick second hatchery it's easier for me to keep my minerals low. It's likely that this is an inadequacy in my timing...but my timing is better on a second hatch.
Since I'm a pretty hardcore noob, when I do start making units it's easier for me to begin making lings from my main while pumping drones from my nat, and that's usually enough of an early army. Also, if my opponent does something weird or has some weakness, it's much easier to transition from already having a second base with drones already working, for example, if I need to grab those extra gases to go with mutas or something.
So basically, if I build that hatchery when I do get the minerals instead of pumping out more drones and lings, from experience, it's easier to compensate for those 300 mins than it is to time a second hatchery WHILE defending the inevitable zealot/marine pushes. To me, a second early hatchery is slowing down your economy and military production momentarily so that in a few minutes the rate of increase of both is increased significantly. I've even used one queen early on if the nat base is really close to the main, to just hop back and forth to spawn larvae, although that puts you at risk for some cheeses:/ Again, this is noob stuff, so don't bite my head of ^_^
|
On October 29 2010 01:46 FabledIntegral wrote:
Because if you read my post you'd see that trying to drone whore off a pool first build is much more dangerous than drone whore off a hatch first build. So if you want to play econ, if you can pull off the hatch first, it's going to set you better up for econ. If you go pool first but want to play econ, it's much riskier.
well, why is it more dangerous to drone off pool first? I don't quite understand the difference. Your hatch isn't gonna defend you against attacks...
|
Well, just gonna make a simple input to this discussion. Let say you are going for a 14 hatch or 14 pool.
14 pool:
It takes 65 seconds for the pool to create.
50 seconds for the queen to spawn
25 seconds for larvae to spawn. (seconds here is real seconds not the actual game seconds there is a correlation there so it won't matter for my statement).
In total: 140 seconds for your extra larvae to spawn.
14 hatch:
You want to send your drone out at about 220-ish minerals the time for 13 drones to mine 80 minerals is about 12 seconds.
The hatch take 100 seconds to build.
In total: 112 seconds for your extra larva to spawn.
Considering the fact that larva take 15 seconds to spawn, you will have 3 extra larvae out when your first batch of spawned larvae pops. So in conclusion you will have 3 larvae out quicker with hatch first, but you will gain 1 larva with pool first.(well I am assuming you are playing perfectly of course).
So you can boost your economy slightly faster with hatch first and rely on spawn larvae to defend your hatch. But hatch first might make you more vulnerable against early attacks.(I am not saying that it is a clear timing window that you will lose if your opponent attacked but you might have a tough time dealing with it.)
And hatching first can give opportunity for faster drone satuartion at your expansion.
In general you should label pool first as the bit more safer build and hatch first the more economic build, both builds has pros and cons.
.
|
I see two primary reasons that isn't about creep or defensibility - in terms of economy
1. You get to use your second queen much more early and rapidly - at a certain point the returns of this will overcome the lost economy from going pool first.
2. Drones mine more efficiently at an empty mineral patch then one with multiple drones mining from. Therefore, the mineral return per drone is greater then staying on one base longer.
|
you guys don't seem to be understanding what the OP was talking about.
Destiny was trying to prove that a pool first build was not only safer but better than a hatch first build. Him and another player raced to 50 drones and each using a different build and Destiny with his pool first build actually got there faster. He stated because when you go pool first you get your queen out faster and that makes up for any loss you might of had when you went pool first. A hatch only spawns with one larva so you are not really gaining anything when it spawns.
I'll try to get Destiny to post himself so he can better explain why he feels you should always pool first when you FE.
|
Might I just mention the main reason why people expand, especially zerg.
The earlier a set number of workers is mining across more mineral fields, the later those fields will deplete. The fewer fields are depleted, the higher your mining efficiency.
Fast expanding is a strategy that emphasizes the late-game, as evidenced by this rule.
|
On October 29 2010 06:28 VelRa_G wrote:
Might I just mention the main reason why people expand, especially zerg.
The earlier a set number of workers is mining across more mineral fields, the later those fields will deplete. The fewer fields are depleted, the higher your mining efficiency.
Fast expanding is a strategy that emphasizes the late-game, as evidenced by this rule.
Very good point
I've never really thought of it like that. I guess if you don't make it past the early game though, it doesn't really matter.
|
I think its worth noting that you have slightly higher mining efficiency off the second base. I usually go 14 Hatch vs. P and T if I don't see like 2 gate or 3 raxxxuuuu. I never hatch first vs. Zerg. Thats just asking to get mass speedlingd.
|
Do you have a replays to prove your point. Because all your doing is making up unsupported claims.
If BW and SC2 so far has shown us the best economic build is always Expansion first builds.
|
On October 29 2010 06:33 DreamSailor wrote:
I think its worth noting that you have slightly higher mining efficiency off the second base. I usually go 14 Hatch vs. P and T if I don't see like 2 gate or 3 raxxxuuuu. I never hatch first vs. Zerg. Thats just asking to get mass speedlingd.
Why would you ever do that in a ZvZ. Were talking about ZvT and ZvP
|
On October 29 2010 06:28 VelRa_G wrote:
Might I just mention the main reason why people expand, especially zerg.
The earlier a set number of workers is mining across more mineral fields, the later those fields will deplete. The fewer fields are depleted, the higher your mining efficiency.
Fast expanding is a strategy that emphasizes the late-game, as evidenced by this rule.
Sorry but completely irrelevant. If you are so determined to not get mined out in your main you can transfer 16 drones to your natural off the pool first build since 16 drones has ZERO diminishing returns compared to <16 drones mining.
I think this is an EXTREMELY interesting discussion and i really wonder if people can come up with a reason to get that hatch first.
The larvae cannot be the reason as f.e. Idra uses his first 25 energy on BOTH queens for creep tumors since he cannot spend all the larvae he gets from 2 hatch+q.
The only thing i can think of is creep spread. You can really get the creep going with 2 queens and 2 hatches, compared to being strapped for larvae off of 1 hatch. However, I'd rather not die to early pressure more than to have better creep spread.
|
On October 29 2010 00:53 Bitters wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 00:37 bevey wrote:
Hatchery first is optimal for a few reasons
1 - Creep spread: It allows your zerglings and roaches to defend against hellions and early harass
2 - Larva: One of the resources that you are starved for in the beginning of the game is larva
3 - Early Static Defense: Since you need creep to build on the earlier you get your hatch up the earlier you can put down a spine crawler.
4 - Wall ins: Since everyone walls in vs zerg early pressure is very risky because it puts pressure on you to do dmg which is very hard to do against people with wall ins. Since early pressure is so risky many people decide to go for an economic opening and hatch first is the way as stated above. 1- could see faster creep at nat being beneficial 2- you don't get more larvae doing hatch before pool, that's why i made this thread 3- similar to 1, but you can get access to lings/queen faster for defense as well 4- my first post highlights that there is no economic benefit of hatch first
Im only in platinum, but i am definitely POSITIVE that goin hatch before pool gives you more larva. First off, you get double the hatcheries, which produces double the larva, and gives you 2 hatcheries to use inject larva. There is absolutely no way that you do not get more larva.
|
What's important to me is the timing of the larva - with the hatch first build the larva come one at a time every 10 seconds from both hatches, and the new hatch spawns WITH a larva. With the pool first build, I have to wait for all 4 to come at once 40 seconds after the first queen inject. Having those 2 larva 20 seconds earlier can make all the difference against early pressure.
|
Map presence/Map control.
Creep to make spines etc.
Creep spread for tumors etc.
More hatch = more queens faster if needed
More geyser access faster. Some of the maps have 1 or more badly placed geysers in the main and nats, so often times my 2nd gas will be at the nat where it's a better positioning.
also, 1 base with 30 drones is not as good as 2 bases with 15 drones. They mine more efficiently. And a side effect of this is the bases last longer.
|
Creep spread is huge for me, and I also think it's easier to defend early pushes, not like cheese rushes, but puhes that come around 30ish food. If you pool first, then the hatch at your natural is defendable only by lings and maybe 1 queen until it finishes and then the creep starts spreading out. If they attack before you can get spines up, then it usually takes a large amount of lings for you to be able to defend that. Also, without the creep between the two queens, then the 2nd queen at your main can't really help to defend early pushes. That's usually why I hatch first.
|
Overpool / 13 Queen + Scoutling / 18 OL + Extractor / 20 Hatchery
In my opinion superior to Hatch before pool. And the Hatchery + 2nd Queen should still be up in time for those pushes.
But I'm so used to 14 Hatch, most often I only think of other options when it's too late.
|
i think the advantage is at top level only, as usually the scout tries to deny the hatch. With 14 hatch you are mostly early enough to put the hatch before the scout arrives to block the hatch
|
i don't think the OP was clear in mentioning the BO's tested. perhaps if that was added as an edit it would help clarify his thinking. in the tests on destiny's stream, the 2nd hatch was still really early. it'd would have to be corrected if i'm wrong, but the BO's tested were:
FE - 15h/14p
pool - 13p/16h
the result of the tests in a race to 50 drones was clearly the extra queen and larvae from pool first was more than enough to compensate for the slightly delayed hatch. equal econ and "safer" early game.
it would be nice if OP or one of destiny's mods could have him post that replay
|
On October 29 2010 06:47 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Map presence/Map control.
Creep to make spines etc.
Creep spread for tumors etc.
More hatch = more queens faster if needed
More geyser access faster. Some of the maps have 1 or more badly placed geysers in the main and nats, so often times my 2nd gas will be at the nat where it's a better positioning.
also, 1 base with 30 drones is not as good as 2 bases with 15 drones. They mine more efficiently. And a side effect of this is the bases last longer.
sorry but with just a little blind hatch you will NOT establish map control. You essentially give it to the other player.
Why would you need a lot of queens before the 4 minute mark?
Why would you need more than 2 geysers before the 4 minute mark?
The only thing that is actually a legit reason up to now is creep spread.
The pool first only gets the second hatchery 40 seconds later, if you put more drones in your natural you can avoid getting mined out in the main. This is also irrelevant.
|
As a terran player I feel that why would you expend resources on going for a pool first versus terran against a now void cheese. As if you're facing a protoss player, I can understand going pool first, but versus terran now there is really no big point. The thing is a one basing protoss or terran player can easily get a scout to your natural at around the 15 food mark and see that yoru hatchery is not up yet, drawing the conclusion that they can tech up very quickly and get higher tech units while you're waiting for a second hatchery. Zerglings wont really help here defend against say, a banshee. Another thing they could do would be to be super aggressive against this build, while you wait for your 16 hatch to finish, we could be pushing out and the zerg doesnt have the creep up as fast as you would want. Droning up to 50 drones doesnt really matter when your base is getting owned by marine marauder.
|
The main reason for hatch first is creep spread without any real economic hit. When your 2 queens spawn, you can use their first 25 energy to lay down 2 creep tumors, as you have enough larva at that point. Earlier creep spread = more vision + faster units later in the the game.
|
I think the main advantage is for getting creep out faster. You can use creep tumor instead of larvae inject and creep spreads faster. It optimizes energy gain from queens but not wasting it on injects.
|
On October 29 2010 07:03 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 06:47 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Map presence/Map control.
Creep to make spines etc.
Creep spread for tumors etc.
More hatch = more queens faster if needed
More geyser access faster. Some of the maps have 1 or more badly placed geysers in the main and nats, so often times my 2nd gas will be at the nat where it's a better positioning.
also, 1 base with 30 drones is not as good as 2 bases with 15 drones. They mine more efficiently. And a side effect of this is the bases last longer. sorry but with just a little blind hatch you will NOT establish map control. You essentially give it to the other player. Why would you need a lot of queens before the 4 minute mark? Why would you need more than 2 geysers before the 4 minute mark? The only thing that is actually a legit reason up to now is creep spread.The pool first only gets the second hatchery 40 seconds later, if you put more drones in your natural you can avoid getting mined out in the main. This is also irrelevant.
Once again the non specifics of comparing the hatch first to which build produces some assumptions you are making.
Second good players (which you obviously don't face or you'd understand) love to deny a zerg an early expansion either through an engineering bay(which has become popular thanks to GSL overadvertising it) or a pylon and canon trap, the difference between hatch first and pool first can be that you don't get an expansion until almost 25-30 food if that early, try that comparison and tell me the difference.
|
On October 29 2010 01:34 hoovehand wrote:
how can you not get more larva from a second hatch?
the difference is minimal, but you still get the larva earlier which means you can spend your minerals earlier and get more units out earlier.
also, if you wait before hatch there's a greater chance the opposing player can pressure and make it far more difficult to claim.
queen's inject larvae is better than the hatcheries own larvae spawn. so a pool first, queen, then hatchery would end up in more larvae than hatchery, pool, queen
|
After reading this thread I began studying the idea of pool first with the intent on abusing the earlier queen.
My standard play has always been as follows: 14 hatch, 13 pool, 16 overlord, 2 queens, 2 sets of zerglings, 25 gas 1 & 2, 23 overlord, drones, scout with zerglings.
My variation of the pool first play went as follows: 14 pool, 16 overlord, 18 queen, 20 hatchery, 2nd queen after first, 6 drones after you place down pool then zerglings, scout with zerglings, 25 gas 1 & 2, 23 overlord, drones.
After those guidelines, I go into my standard midgame with both.
After playing several different games with 14 pool, I've concluded that I will get into the same exact mid game as my 14 hatch.
I feel the differences between the builds are how they cope with early pressure. The creep at the expansion is late so therefore spine crawlers are late and that allows for stronger earlier attacks. I feel as though 14 hatch is stronger at dealing with all the pressure thrown at you because 14 pool comes too late to really deny allins, both plays suggest the use of drones to stop cannon rushes and bunker rushes, and neither play has a good answer to a surprise ebay at your natural. 14 hatch can be placed before a terran has an opportunity to ebay while with a 14 pool you are forced to build zerglings which defeats the purpose of the build. I feel as though there is no point in doing this build if you're making lings as soon as the pool pops or getting supply blocked as it will harm your economy more than with a standard 14 hatch. I feel both styles are viable and that 14 pool is a harder and slightly more flexible opening to utilize properly.
Another point I'd like to cover is there shouldn't be any room for you to creep tumor on your first 25 energy on the first two queens, you will generate enough minerals to spend on the larvae and you will eventually have a surplus in minerals rather an inability to use larvae. The only time that made sense to get an early creep tumor is after your one spawn larvae you get ONE creep tumor and return to spawning larvae.
My final conclusion is that neither build is completely better than the other, it is all preference and your ability to play that matters.
|
There are 3 reasons to go hatch first.
1.) Getting your hatchery down before early pressure, especially hellions. Once a hatchery is up at lot of early pressure can't take it down before you can push them back. If you wait, you put yourself at more risk.
2.) Creep spread, being able to get good creep spread early on and not being bottle necked at your ramp substantially speeds up the rate that your creep gets out, basically the radius of a single creep tumour in all directions.
3.) Queens are awesome. With an early hatchery you can get craploads of queens out, like Dimaga does. When you get 6 queens out off two bases, you don't spend any larva on them, all your larva bar 1 for a couple zerglings goes into drones. You get extra creep spread really fast so that your zerglings are more efficient holding off a push when it does come, and when you have that many they store up enough energy to transfuse each other.
If you go pool first you can't get enough queens out and you generally need lair tech for decent anti air, without being pinned down under the cover of your spore crawlers while the terran player dances around your base with his banshees.
So yeah hatch first in ZvT or ZvP is way better if it's not blocked, but you just send the drone before you have enough minerals to buy it anyway and if you can get the probe off the spot before you get enough you can always go pool instead.
|
This may not mean much but.. the buildtime of a spawning pool plus a queen is 105 while as the buildtime of just a hatchery is 100. Both effectively give you the same larva. This means a later pool but faster double queen so it is faster in the longrun.
|
Why is everyone going for 14 hatch etc.? Most of the time i can get away with 16 hatch, its pretty nice start for the economy, thanks dimaga for showing us how to do it ^_^
Well and as already mentioned 20+ times, you get your sunken at a better position, better creep spread and IMO you have the opportunity to take the battle away from your main base towards the natural, providing more safety to your drones at the main.
|
On October 29 2010 06:47 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Map presence/Map control.
Creep to make spines etc.
Creep spread for tumors etc.
More hatch = more queens faster if needed
More geyser access faster. Some of the maps have 1 or more badly placed geysers in the main and nats, so often times my 2nd gas will be at the nat where it's a better positioning.
also, 1 base with 30 drones is not as good as 2 bases with 15 drones. They mine more efficiently. And a side effect of this is the bases last longer.
Map control ? What a joke. 2 glings is better than having a blind expanding hatch unless maybe you use ur 2nd overlord near it.
Creep to make spines. Ok that's the ONLY pro i could have got from all my experiences.
Creep spread for tumors. What ? you can also do it with pool first. Hell you can have 1 additionnal creep tumor by going pool first.
More queens ? If a 3 sec (in game, real game is like 1,5 sec) later 2nd queen from pool first's build is having slower queens then ok. After the 2nd queen, more queens is just the same from both builds. Just that hatch first get queens 1,5 real sec earlier.
About gas, like someone mentionned above, you don't need a 2nd gas relatively early in 99 of most Z's opening. Debattable.
About saturation. Again you won't have 30 drones before you get ur 2nd hatch ready. You can easily maynard the drones before reaching saturation.
I'm sorry if i'm really upset, but what i want to point it out is that if the progamers are doing it, it's not because of economy or larvaes management. There must be probably something we aren't aware of, which i'm pretty sure this include 99% of the TL.net's ppl.
And i'm pretty sure some of the progamers doesn't know exactly why they're doing it, beside maybe for not having ur expand delayed.
Meh.
I'm tired, good night.
But plz before making any theorycrafting argument, try the builds yourself before saying what are the pros and cons cauz most of the statements are simply false.
|
Test this. Getting a Hatch at 13/14 before a scout reaches your base.
And then, test getting Pool first and then Hatch. But then oh wait, it's not only 40 seconds later due to that stupid Pylon/Engineering Bay blocking the expansion. While that is happening, damn, my opponent's Nexus and 1 rax FE is 1/4 done.
|
On October 29 2010 12:52 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 06:47 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Map presence/Map control.
Creep to make spines etc.
Creep spread for tumors etc.
More hatch = more queens faster if needed
More geyser access faster. Some of the maps have 1 or more badly placed geysers in the main and nats, so often times my 2nd gas will be at the nat where it's a better positioning.
also, 1 base with 30 drones is not as good as 2 bases with 15 drones. They mine more efficiently. And a side effect of this is the bases last longer. And i'm pretty sure some of the progamers doesn't know exactly why they're doing it, beside maybe for not having ur expand delayed.Meh. I'm tired, good night. But plz before making any theorycrafting argument, try the builds yourself before saying what are the pros and cons cauz most of the statements are simply false.
Ding ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner, hatch first makes it very hard for a Terran or toss to deny said expansion, whereas expansion later can be denied by a manner pylon or engineering bay or even bunker depending on hatch timing. Sure you can eventually kill said building with the lings you went first but that takes more time and DELAYS you, and if its a cannon contain, then you need more than lings, which takes even more time.
Hatch first is safe and is equal with pool first and GUARANTEES an early expansion.
|
I'll give you 2 great reasons why I fast hatch as a 1000 pt diamond player..(I know not impressive. js)
1) You are able to make a defense of a couple spine crawlers to prevent early harass
2) Speedlings arent necessary too early when the zerglings are playing defensively on cliffs.
Theres also the extra larva. I know the earlier queen can inject larva but why not have the fast hatch and then fast creep tumor to help see early harass.. earlier. And more speed to the speedlings as well as more mobility for the queens.
Btw i fast hatch against 1800 point Zerg players and win constantly.
Unless they 6-7 pool which hasnt ever happened in league play.
|
The answer should be dependent on the map.
|
not sure why people just blindly believe you without a replay. destiny amuses me with his roach builds but frankly he's the last person i'm looking to learn things from, so the fact that you just mention his name and assume i'm going to not ask for confirmation of how exactly it's better is funny. so with that said, replay/vod or your newfound understanding is worth as much to me as any other theorycraft.
i'm of the assumption that hatch first gives you an expansion faster, before the non-zerg can do silly expansion blocking trickery, because it does. i prefer to be ahead of a non-zerg in expansions, because no matter what, i lose my macro advantage (see: the advantage that matters most) if i'm not. as long as i can hatch ASAP, and i can defend that hatch well, give me an expansion over being safe. sure, you don't die *now* with pool, but if he blocks your expansion, and then starts expanding before you do, you die later, which is still dying.
|
On October 29 2010 13:03 Killerbot wrote:
Ding ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner, hatch first makes it very hard for a Terran or toss to deny said expansion, whereas expansion later can be denied by a manner pylon or engineering bay or even bunker depending on hatch timing. Sure you can eventually kill said building with the lings you went first but that takes more time and DELAYS you, and if its a cannon contain, then you need more than lings, which takes even more time.
Hatch first is safe and is equal with pool first and GUARANTEES an early expansion.
Why did i say "beside not having our expo delayed" ?
I dunno about you but i always send my 2nd ovi near T or P's base along with the first. So having no visions against bunk reaper or canon behind natural mineral's line isn't nice when you go hatch first.
|
More queens ? If a 3 sec (in game, real game is like 1,5 sec) later 2nd queen from pool first's build is having slower queens then ok. After the 2nd queen, more queens is just the same from both builds. Just that hatch first get queens 1,5 real sec earlier.
Wait what? You only build two queens in ZvP and ZvT?
|
1700~ z here and i think that progamers do it because they just carried it on from bw, i sure did. It helps me alot because it is much smoother in transition also with more minerals to mine from. i tend to play greedy while the opponent tries to finish off my manner gas with 1 unit while i drone whore with 2 bases full of drones mining. That doesn't come from 1 mineral line from 1 base and a slower second. If you're thinking 'yea thats only one situation' you're right. But keep in mind that most of the progamers in sc2 all played sc1 extensively and they've been accustomed to the 12 hat build that we know and love that's become more of a standard build against t and p. as for zvz, before i used to do it but i like 14gas13pool now because its easier to harras and on a micro level will not be beat by a lesser zerg that way.
|
I ran some tests of my usual 16 hatch, 15 pool build against a 15 pool, 16 hatch. The numbers were very similar at time 6:30 . That is taking into account number of drones, amount of minerals and queued production at that time.
I've always believed hatch first is best but this is making me strongly reconsider.
I don't understand the few comments that said, when going hatch first, the queens are free to place a creep tumor. I find there is enough minerals to keep creating drones out of the larvae using constant injection from the start. Although there are some 1 - 2 second pauses occasionally when waiting for 50 minerals.
The build exact build order is:
9 overlord
13 scout
16 hatch
15 pool
18 extractor
17 overlord
25 overlord
All larvae are converted to drones except for a zergling at 19. It also includes getting zergling speed as soon as 100 gas arrives (and not taking the drones off gas afterwards).
|
On October 29 2010 13:38 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +More queens ? If a 3 sec (in game, real game is like 1,5 sec) later 2nd queen from pool first's build is having slower queens then ok. After the 2nd queen, more queens is just the same from both builds. Just that hatch first get queens 1,5 real sec earlier. Wait what? You only build two queens in ZvP and ZvT?
No. I'm saying that both build have 2 queens at almost the same time, hatch first getting the 2nd queen from 1 to 5 ingame second earlier than pool first. After that it doesn't matter, you get ur 3rd or 4th queens the same time just that hatch first will still get them 1,5 sec earlier in general assuming you don't stop building queens.
That's why i prefer building pool first for every matchup since i see almost no advantages from going hatch first.
|
hmm a lot of people here mentioned that a later hatch might get delayed by engineering bay and such. But isn't this danger even greater for hatch-first? If you build the pool first, you can at least have two zerglings and possibly more to defend against those kinds of cheese.
|
On October 29 2010 19:37 Brusko651 wrote:
hmm a lot of people here mentioned that a later hatch might get delayed by engineering bay and such. But isn't this danger even greater for hatch-first? If you build the pool first, you can at least have two zerglings and possibly more to defend against those kinds of cheese.
Exactly.
Everyone saying ... ohhhh... pool first builds can get their hatch blocked.
Yeah. And if you get your hatch first build blocked you're screwed since you have 200-400 minerals when your pool goes down at 14-16. Sometimes if your opponent sees your pool first he will cancel his warping in pylon because he's greedy.
Also with pool first you get your hatch down FASTER if you get your natural blocked since you have lings SOONER to destroy the blocking building.
in terms of getting your hatch down as soon and as reliably as possible pool first is DEFINITELY better since almost every player knows that Z like to hatch first and will be aware of the drone coming down or will just blindly put something there.
I will test both builds economy-, creep and early pressure-wise once i get home, but so far it really looks like hatch first is - even though hatch first should give more eco, right? RIGHT? - actually inferior to pool first in terms of an opening-
|
~2150 zerg here...
The only 2 real benefits from the 15hatch/14 pool are
a) Harder (or a lesser chance) that your hatchery will be blocked with a pylon/engie bay
b) faster creep spread at your expo (very small I think)
The benefit from the 14pool/15 hatch is that you are able to deal with cheesey play earlier (cannons, proxies, or very early pressure).
I would 14pool/15 hatch if I knew I could get my hatch down 100% every game, yet now I am beginning to wonder how often the delay will actually delay your 2nd hatch into 20+ supply (from blocks).
Even in tourney play, cheese is always a possibility which makes me think the 14pool/15hatch is safer. Yet, in reality if they aren't cheesing, the 15hatch/14 pool is a better bet because you have less of a chance that your hatch will be blocked.
On a 2 player map they will most likely block even the 15hatch (a good player should know the timings on all the maps - sure they might have to send out an earlier scout on Jungle/Xel`Naga, but if they want to block, they can), so pool first is probably better (also because of a higher chance of cheese/very early pressure).
On a 4 player map 15 hatch may be the way to go because there is a good chance you wont be scouted first, meaning they would have to send out a very early probe/scv in order to get a block off against a 15hatch. Although, there is still the chance you will get cheesed/early pressured here, so it is more of a question on a 4 player map. In this case it's very hard to tell which is better because you're comparing the chance of cheese to the chance of getting scouted early/blocked. Even still, I am not sure about the timings on the 4player maps. What I mean by this is, how early do they have to send out a scout in order to block in these 3 scenarios:
a) 3rd base scouted he finds you
b) 2nd base scouted he finds you
c) 1st base scouted he finds you
The other points are negligible/don't make sense imo.
|
The only reason to go hatch first are:
- lower chance of it getting blocked by a scout. (this is the biggest reason to go 14 hatch imo)
- hatchery finishes earlier which can make it easier to defend in some cases. (against early pressure it will have more hitpoints, your creep is spread faster and you can put down a spine earlier)
There seriously are hardly any other reasons to go hatch first except that perhaps some people find it fits with certain builds better. The 2nd queen finishes at almost the same time in both builds and the creep tumor spread is virtually the same as well really. Hatch first you can put a creep tumor at the natural straight away a bit easier, pool first is slightly easier for a fast creep tumor at the main.
I think 14 hatch is a bit better if you are not being scouted yet or are fairly certain you can put the hatch down without it being blocked. 14 pool is better in other cases imo (such as 2 player maps) because it's safer against cheeses, stops their scouting earlier and most importantly makes it harder to guess for the opponent what you are doing.
Against 14 hatch I find it much easier to do a greedy expansion build whereas vs 14 pool the threat of early lings is much better and thus you can't expand as easily.
|
Ehmm, is everyone forgetting that you can get
more gas? This is needed if you want to go
muta or any other gas expensive build..
|
There is no situation where getting even your 2nd gas before your 2nd hatch finishes is a good idea. You will simply get run over due to lack of spines/lings
|
I think this may be relevant to the thread.
I ran some tests using the build order tester, and it turns out that you lose almost nothing in terms of speed if you're going pure drones, if you 10 pool
link to thread/discussion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164575¤tpage=2#37
I'm not sure what this implies, being a big fan of hatch first v terran and pool first v toss... but I think I'll start experimenting with the 10pool/16hatch opening. It greatly increases flexibility in dealing with cheese and early attacks. If the economy loss is as little as those very narrow results seem to indicate, then it's worth it on the cesspool of random all-ins and cheese that is ~1600 diamond.
The build order to have 50 drones and 4 lings as fast as possible is:
10 SpawningPool M:204 G:0
10 Overlord M:100 G:0
13 Queen M:153 G:0
16 Hatchery M:305 G:0
17 Overlord M:108 G:0
19 Queen M:202 G:0
22 Overlord M:103 G:0
35 Overlord M:327 G:0
36 Overlord M:489 G:0
36 Queen M:605 G:0
39 Overlord M:405 G:0
40 Queen M:255 G:0
45 Zergling M:286 G:0
49 Zergling M:199 G:0
50 Overlord M:149 G:0
You can shave off a second using 3hatches and some weird timings, but this is the intermediate result that intrigued me... and the final result of the optimizer was only a second better than this (6:17 vs 6:18).
oh, and obviously you want your lings out much earlier in a standard game, but the mineral loss from slightly slower drones is not going to slow you down too much. I also realize this is a simple test, and not an actual build. 50 drones blind is a terrible idea, this is just for discussion.
|
Canada1637 Posts
On October 29 2010 14:40 LegendLength wrote:
I ran some tests of my usual 16 hatch, 15 pool build against a 15 pool, 16 hatch. The numbers were very similar at time 6:30 . That is taking into account number of drones, amount of minerals and queued production at that time.
I've always believed hatch first is best but this is making me strongly reconsider.
I don't understand the few comments that said, when going hatch first, the queens are free to place a creep tumor. I find there is enough minerals to keep creating drones out of the larvae using constant injection from the start. Although there are some 1 - 2 second pauses occasionally when waiting for 50 minerals.
The build exact build order is:
9 overlord
13 scout
16 hatch
15 pool
18 extractor
17 overlord
25 overlord
All larvae are converted to drones except for a zergling at 19. It also includes getting zergling speed as soon as 100 gas arrives (and not taking the drones off gas afterwards).
The reason you can use up all your larva is because 16 hatch means the hatch is up later than 14 hatch -> less larva, also later pool -> later queen -> less larva. If you go for 14 hatch and pool after the queens will have spare mana from not needing to inject because of more natural larva generation, and I believe slightly weaker econ, basically 14 hatch compared to 16 hatch has more natural larva with a weaker early econ.
I'm pretty sure at least o.o.
|
I recommend pool first for getting these two zerglings out. For chasing scouts, get some information yourself and shutting down brazen stuff the enemy can throw at you. 15 hatch is also more vulnerable to 2 gate pressure. Maybe hatch first is recommendable on cross positions on large maps like shakuras plateau and metalopolis.
edit: I also remember my 15 hatch getting busted by a 12 p against my 9 z on delta quadrant. The distance was just too short.
|
On October 29 2010 21:09 Palmar wrote:I think this may be relevant to the thread. I ran some tests using the build order tester, and it turns out that you lose almost nothing in terms of speed if you're going pure drones, if you 10 pool link to thread/discussion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164575¤tpage=2#37I'm not sure what this implies, being a big fan of hatch first v terran and pool first v toss... but I think I'll start experimenting with the 10pool/16hatch opening. It greatly increases flexibility in dealing with cheese and early attacks. If the economy loss is as little as those very narrow results seem to indicate, then it's worth it on the cesspool of random all-ins and cheese that is ~1600 diamond. The build order to have 50 drones and 4 lings as fast as possible is: 10 SpawningPool M:204 G:0 10 Overlord M:100 G:0 13 Queen M:153 G:0 16 Hatchery M:305 G:0 17 Overlord M:108 G:0 19 Queen M:202 G:0 22 Overlord M:103 G:0 35 Overlord M:327 G:0 36 Overlord M:489 G:0 36 Queen M:605 G:0 39 Overlord M:405 G:0 40 Queen M:255 G:0 45 Zergling M:286 G:0 49 Zergling M:199 G:0 50 Overlord M:149 G:0 You can shave off a second using 3hatches and some weird timings, but this is the intermediate result that intrigued me... and the final result of the optimizer was only a second better than this (6:17 vs 6:18). oh, and obviously you want your lings out much earlier in a standard game, but the mineral loss from slightly slower drones is not going to slow you down too much. I also realize this is a simple test, and not an actual build. 50 drones blind is a terrible idea, this is just for discussion.
mind = blown, so excited to test this out when i get home :D
|
I go hatch first to prevent my opponent from preventing my expo with a scout.
|
The current test I'm running is twofold:
First test simply finds the fastest way to 40 drones, 2 hatches, 1 geyser, metabolic boost and at least 1 queen + 4 lings
Second test does the same, except it forces a 10pool and then proceeds with the same final goal. I'll give you the time difference when both tests have had an hour or so to run.
|
An hour to run? Do you test this out with the real game or just in the simulator? I'd prefer the first one.
|
I'm using the zerg build order optimizer.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160231
It doesn't simulate a predefined build, rather optimizes a build given some predetermined constricting factors.
I have finished the unrestricted test, it managed to achieve the end result in 6:02 using the following build
9 Overlord M:105 G:0
13 Hatchery M:308 G:0
14 SpawningPool M:201 G:0
14 Overlord M:108 G:0
14 Extractor M:55 G:0
17 +1 Drone on gas M:114 G:0
17 +1 Drone on gas M:114 G:0
17 +1 Drone on gas M:152 G:4
18 Queen M:204 G:24
23 Queen M:158 G: 72
25 Overlord M:111 G:89
25 +1 Drone on minerals M:11 G:89
25 MetabolicBoost M:117 G:100
30 +1 Drone on minerals M:10 G:25
31 +1 Drone on gas M:191 G:36
31 Overlord M:191 G:36
31 Queen M:155 G:41
35 Overlord M:181 G:63
36 Queen M:156 G: 73
41 Zergling M:59 G:88
47 Zergling M:61 G:109
50 +1 Drone on gas M:106 G:122
Full details here:
+ Show Spoiler +@0:00 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:6/10 BuildDrone @0:13 M:51 G:0 L:2 S:7/10 BuildDrone @0:15 Spawned: Larva+1 @0:17 Spawned: Drone+1 @0:24 M:52 G:0 L:2 S:8/10 BuildDrone @0:30 Spawned: Drone+1 @0:30 Spawned: Larva+1 @0:41 Spawned: Drone+1 @0:43 M:105 G:0 L:2 S  /10 BuildOverlord @0:45 Spawned: Larva+1 @0:51 M:56 G:0 L:2 S /10 BuildDrone @1:00 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:08 Spawned: Overlord+1 @1:08 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:08 M:114 G:0 L:2 S:10/18 BuildDrone @1:08 M:64 G:0 L:1 S:11/18 BuildDrone @1:15 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:15 M:63 G:0 L:1 S:12/18 BuildDrone @1:25 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:25 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:30 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:32 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:45 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:50 M:308 G:0 L:2 S:13/18 BuildHatchery @1:55 M:51 G:0 L:2 S:12/18 BuildDrone @2:00 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:01 M:53 G:0 L:2 S:13/18 BuildDrone @2:12 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:15 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:18 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:23 M:201 G:0 L:2 S:14/18 BuildSpawningPool @2:29 M:57 G:0 L:2 S:13/18 BuildDrone @2:30 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:40 M:108 G:0 L:2 S:14/18 BuildOverlord @2:45 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:45 M:55 G:0 L:2 S:14/18 BuildExtractor @2:46 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:48 M:56 G:0 L:2 S:13/18 BuildDrone @2:53 M:52 G:0 L:1 S:14/18 BuildDrone @3:00 Spawned: Larva+1 @3:00 M:67 G:0 L:1 S:15/18 BuildDrone @3:05 Spawned: Overlord+1 @3:05 Spawned: Drone+1 @3:10 Spawned: Drone+1 @3:15 Spawned: Extractor+1 @3:15 Spawned: Larva+1 @3:15 M:164 G:0 L:1 S:16/26 BuildDrone @3:15 M:114 G:0 L:0 S:17/26 MineGas @3:15 M:114 G:0 L:0 S:17/26 MineGas @3:17 Spawned: Drone+1 @3:17 Mining: +1 on gas @3:17 Mining: +1 on gas @3:19 M:152 G:4 L:0 S:17/26 MineGas @3:21 Mining: +1 on gas @3:28 Spawned: Spawning Pool+1 @3:30 Spawned: Hatchery+1 @3:30 Spawned: Larva+1 @3:30 M:254 G:24 L:2 S:17/28 BuildDrone @3:30 M:204 G:24 L:1 S:18/28 BuildQueen @3:30 M:54 G:24 L:1 S:20/28 BuildDrone @3:32 Spawned: Drone+1 @3:45 Spawned: Larva+1 @3:45 M:150 G:53 L:2 S:21/28 BuildDrone @3:45 M:100 G:53 L:1 S:22/28 BuildDrone @3:47 Spawned: Drone+1 @3:47 Spawned: Drone+1 @3:55 M:158 G:72 L:0 S:23/28 BuildQueen @4:00 Spawned: Larva+1 @4:02 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:02 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:04 M:111 G:89 L:2 S:25/28 BuildOverlord @4:04 M:11 G:89 L:1 S:25/28 MineMineral @4:06 Mining: +1 on mineral @4:12 M:117 G:100 L:1 S:25/28 Metabolic Boost @4:15 Spawned: Larva+1 @4:15 M:58 G:4 L:3 S:25/28 BuildDrone @4:19 M:62 G:10 L:2 S:26/28 BuildDrone @4:20 Spawned: Queen+1 @4:22 M:52 G:14 L:1 S:27/28 BuildDrone @4:29 Spawned: Overlord+1 @4:30 Spawned: Larva+1 @4:30 M:110 G:25 L:2 S:28/36 BuildDrone @4:30 M:60 G:25 L:1 S:29/36 BuildDrone @4:30 M:10 G:25 L:0 S:30/36 MineMineral @4:32 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:32 Mining: +1 on mineral @4:36 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:39 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:45 Spawned: Queen+1 @4:45 Spawned: Larva+1 @4:45 M:241 G:36 L:2 S:30/36 BuildDrone @4:45 M:191 G:36 L:1 S:31/36 MineGas @4:45 M:191 G:36 L:1 S:31/36 BuildOverlord @4:47 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:47 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:47 Mining: +1 on gas @4:49 M:155 G:41 L:0 S:31/36 BuildQueen @5:00 Spawned: Larva+1 @5:00 M:194 G:56 L:2 S:33/36 BuildDrone @5:00 M:144 G:56 L:1 S:34/36 BuildDrone @5:02 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:05 Spawned: Larva+4 @5:05 M:181 G:63 L:4 S:35/36 BuildOverlord @5:05 M:81 G:63 L:3 S:35/36 BuildDrone @5:10 Spawned: Overlord+1 @5:12 M:156 G:73 L:2 S:36/44 BuildQueen @5:15 Spawned: Larva+1 @5:15 M:60 G:77 L:4 S:38/44 BuildDrone @5:17 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:17 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:18 M:63 G:81 L:3 S:39/44 BuildDrone @5:20 M:52 G:84 L:2 S:40/44 BuildDrone @5:22 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:23 M:59 G:88 L:1 S:41/44 BuildZergling @5:30 Spawned: Larva+4 @5:30 Spawned: Overlord+1 @5:30 Spawned: Larva+1 @5:30 M:148 G 8 L:6 S:42/52 BuildDrone @5:30 M 8 G 8 L:5 S:43/52 BuildDrone @5:31 M:68 G 9 L:4 S:44/52 BuildDrone @5:32 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:33 M:57 G:102 L:3 S:45/52 BuildDrone @5:35 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:36 M:68 G:106 L:2 S:46/52 BuildDrone @5:37 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:38 M:61 G:109 L:1 S:47/52 BuildZergling @5:39 Spawned: Queen+1 @5:45 Spawned: Larva+1 @5:45 M:163 G:119 L:2 S:48/52 BuildDrone @5:45 M:113 G:119 L:1 S:49/52 BuildDrone @5:47 Spawned: Zergling+2 @5:47 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:47 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:47 M:106 G:122 L:0 S:50/52 MineGas @5:48 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:49 Mining: +1 on gas @5:50 Spawned: Larva+4 @5:50 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:53 Spawned: Drone+1 @6:00 Spawned: Larva+1 @6:02 Evolved: Metabolic Boost @6:02 Spawned: Queen+1 @6:02 Spawned: Zergling+2 @6:02 Spawned: Drone+1 @6:02 Spawned: Drone+1 Satisfied. Number of actions in build order: 76 ---Final Output--- At time: 6:02 Minerals: 448 Gas: 150 Supply: 50/52 Drones: 40 Overlords: 6 Queens: 4 Zerglings: 4 Hatcheries: 2 Gas Extractors: 1 Spawning Pools: 1 Metabolic Boost ------------------ Fri Oct 29 16:14:45 GMT 2010: 431818.23382857675
|
If u make spawning pool first then hatcery ( for example 14 pool 15 hatch) u wont have any money to use that spawning pool when it finishes so its basically the same zergling/queen production wise if u go hatch first or pool first but with pool first u have one hatchery more.
|
1400+ D Zerg.
Everyone is forgetting a HUGE REASON. Only 1 person has mentioned so far... the hatch first will provide 2 Extra supply upon creation.
|
Why are people even bothered with what build reaches 50 pop the fastest?? It's completely irrelevant...
The real thing that matters is what gets more larva and what collects more minerals. 10 pool is horrible for your economy by delaying drones unneccesary long and just collecting less minerals.
Using the time to reach 50 pop as benchmark is completely retarded.
That said it's a known fact that 14 pool is just a little bit better economy wise then 14 hatch but the difference is nearly negligible. The reason most pro's 14 hatch is that it's just way harder to probe block that way and makes it quite easy to defend as well.
|
|
|
On October 30 2010 01:50 Markwerf wrote:
Why are people even bothered with what build reaches 50 pop the fastest?? It's completely irrelevant...
The real thing that matters is what gets more larva and what collects more minerals. 10 pool is horrible for your economy by delaying drones unneccesary long and just collecting less minerals.
Using the time to reach 50 pop as benchmark is completely retarded.
That said it's a known fact that 14 pool is just a little bit better economy wise then 14 hatch but the difference is nearly negligible. The reason most pro's 14 hatch is that it's just way harder to probe block that way and makes it quite easy to defend as well.
wait... so you're saying that who can mine 50 drones worth of minerals and overlords and get the larvae for it all is "completely retarded"
then follow it up by saying what gets more minerals is important?
can't say I follow what you're getting at.
on topic... I'm hella enticed by this. really want to start playing around with pool first builds. see how our terran and protoss counterparts respond.
|
On October 29 2010 21:09 Palmar wrote:
[...] it turns out that you lose almost nothing in terms of speed if you're going pure drones, if you 10 pool
[...]
10 SpawningPool M:204 G:0
10 Overlord M:100 G:0
13 Queen M:153 G:0
16 Hatchery M:305 G:0
17 Overlord M:108 G:0
19 Queen M:202 G:0
22 Overlord M:103 G:0
35 Overlord M:327 G:0
36 Overlord M:489 G:0
36 Queen M:605 G:0
39 Overlord M:405 G:0
40 Queen M:255 G:0
45 Zergling M:286 G:0
49 Zergling M:199 G:0
50 Overlord M:149 G:0
I tried testing a rough version of that build, doing 10 pool then hatch as soon as you have too much income. I didn't do it cleanly but it did seem to fall about 500 minerals short at 6:30 compared to the normal builds (16 hatch or 14-16 pool) for the same time reference.
I get the feeling the difference is a lot smaller than 500 minerals though and would like someone more competent to test it. Just to see what the trade off is for the earlier zergling potential (and I guess earlier speedling too?).
|
the problem with testing how to get 50 drones the fastest is that it is just that. 50 drones the fastest. the ZBOO doesn't care how much mineral surplus you wind up with (since droning off of 1 base takes way less than full saturation to do perfectly) and thus readily sacrifices early dronage for faster larvae (since that is what it needs to get the 50 drones ASAP).
With the current form of the ZBOO i think it's pretty good to find the optimal rush builds (f.e. 1 ultralisk rush off 1 base :D) and one shouldn't try to get the best economy with it since those two are generally exclusive with Zerg (you can either go crazy on drones or tech/units)
|
The reason to go hatch first is because of larva, but you guys are looking at it the wrong way.
It's not that going hatch first magically makes more larva.
By going hatch first, you have 2 hatcheries by the time the pool finishes. That means you can get TWO queens earlier, and you also have creep at your nat faster, allowing you to put down spine crawlers.
Queens don't use up any larva. 2 spine crawlers = 2 larva, but they do sooo much damage.
Defending early pushes with 2 queens and 2 spine crawlers means you used only 2 larva to defend, while if you used speedlings instead, you would need 5+ larva to do the same amount of damage. Therefore by going hatch first you are saving up at the very least 3 larva, which can be used for drones. And drones are your priority when you FE, because getting a better economy is the whole point of fast expanding!
|
On October 30 2010 04:42 LWr wrote:
Defending early pushes with 2 queens and 2 spine crawlers means you used only 2 larva to defend, while if you used speedlings instead, you would need 5+ larva to do the same amount of damage. Therefore by going hatch first you are saving up at the very least 3 larva, which can be used for drones. And drones are your priority when you FE, because getting a better economy is the whole point of fast expanding!
After a certain amount of time both builds have 2 queens. I'm not sure which gets both queens out earliest but the pool first obviously gets the first queen out earliest.
So it's still doesn't sway me to go hatch first except for the case where you want to defend very early with that first queen.
The original poster is saying both builds have the same end result once both hatches are running at capacity. But the pool first allows you to get a few zerglings out earlier if necessary.
|
I think like any expansion it primarily boils down to getting it started and getting it defended.
As for getting it planted, I guess the logic is you might as well do it super fast if you have a chance to. If they build something there or micro a worker around in circles, that costs them time and resources. If you wait around there's more time for them to attack or put something in the way.
On the defense side of things, it's very difficult to kill it with tiny amounts of early units and zerg's reactive production mechanics are a big deal with the army sizes are so small that a zerg can build a larger army than the attacker in less time than it will take to kill the hatch. If you wait a bit you end up with a situation where attackers can really threaten it when it's building and obviously it's easier to defend a completed hatch than one under construction.
|
This is one of perhaps the most valuable threads for zergs on tl right now and I'm noticing a lot of garbage in here
thank you to the op for bringing this up, and thank you for everyone who is actually running tests, assuming my sc2 was fuctional I'd be doing the same right now.
OP questioning the common assuption that hatch first is better eco, and he is hit with a bunch of people just blindly saying the those same assumptions.
|
In ZvZ i've found on most maps (steppes doesn't work) that the distances are simply too big for early aggression and the difference between 14 hatch and 14 pool 15 hatch is kind of big. The 14 hatcher can get his defense out before speed kicks in for the 14 pooler with two queens and a couple lings which is more than enough to stop early ling aggression. I've been finding it extremely risky to expand around 21 supply because during hatch building, this is generally when roaches come for a timing attack. I find that an earlier hatch (as long as you aren't getting 6 or 8 pooled) works to your advantage because you can secure a defensive position faster than you normally would. The earlier the better, because you can use all the larve for drones and an army when facing against a 1 basing Zerg. I also like the quick expand because you can use both your queens to spread creep rather than inject larve because your larve count is still high with two hatches. If you don't expand quickly, then your expansion will have to be delayed until you defend their inevitable timing attack.
ZvT and ZvP are situational depending on the map and location. Close posistions on Metalopolis or LT can be scary and I'll generally do 14 extractor 14 pool into safe speedling/baneling or speedling/roaches against Protoss. On 2 player maps like blistering sands, scrap station I'll FE always. On far distance maps, if you go for a speedling build into a later expansion, you'll end up behind and most of the time your harass attacks will get defended quite easily, so it's really a waste of money. What else would you be doing with a speedling build? It's a complete waste of money against competent T or P players, it's almost always better to get less gas for more drones, and spines for defense rather than more lings.
|
I decided to test this just because the notion that hatch first wasn't more economical sounded absurd to me. Note: I ONLY tested the builds trying to maximize economy (building two queens as soon as possible, spending all energy on larva, all larva on drones and overs, maynarding etc.) so this says nothing about which is better strategy, safer, or creep friendly.
I performed both builds as efficiently as possible multiple times and took the average of each after pausing each game at exactly 6:20. I picked this time because I noted in each build it was the moment with the least units in production, right after drone pops. Here are the results:
14 pool 15 hatch:
Minerals: 590
Drones: 44
Overlords: 7
14 hatch 14 pool:
Minerals: 735
Drones: 48
Overlords: 7
Edit: Added previous posters build
10 pool 16 hatch:
Minerals: 640
Drones: 44
Overlords: 6
I know everyone likes to get caught up on technicalities, but my tests seem to confirm the assumption, that hatch first is more economical. The 10pool build actually did surprisingly well, perhaps we should focus on this fact more. If anyone wants to debate this or suggest a better method of testing, please do.
|
On October 30 2010 09:13 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I decided to test this just because the notion that hatch first wasn't more economical sounded absurd to me. Note: I ONLY tested the builds trying to maximize economy (building two queens as soon as possible, spending all energy on larva, all larva on drones and overs, maynarding etc.) so this says nothing about which is better strategy, safer, or creep friendly.
I performed both builds as efficiently as possible multiple times and took the average of each after pausing each game at exactly 6:20. I picked this time because I noted in each build it was the moment with the least units in production, right after drone pops. Here are the results:
14 pool 15 hatch:
Minerals: 590
Drones: 44
Overlords: 7
14 hatch 14 pool:
Minerals: 735
Drones: 48
Overlords: 7
Edit: Added previous posters build
10 pool 16 hatch:
Minerals: 640
Drones: 44
Overlords: 6
I know everyone likes to get caught up on technicalities, but my tests seem to confirm the assumption, that hatch first is more economical. The 10pool build actually did surprisingly well, perhaps we should focus on this fact more. If anyone wants to debate this or suggest a better method of testing, please do.
I would appreciate it if you would test out the variation I thought that would maximize the bonus of the first queen without sacrificing early economy for useless zerglings you don't need against non-cheesy play, especially a Terran who isn't pressuring. If you don't delay the hatchery you WILL get supply blocked and have less drones mining minerals than you could have etc... try slightly different timings if you must but in general if you get 2-4 early zerglings out with that pool first you are defeating the purpose of the argument against hatchery first. There is no way pool first can be as economical as a hatchery first if you start zerglings as soon as the pool finishes.
My variation of the pool first play went as follows: 14 pool, 16 overlord, 18 queen, 20 hatchery, 2nd queen after first, 6 drones after you place down pool then zerglings, scout with zerglings, 25 gas 1 & 2, 23 overlord, drones.
|
You are not assuming the point that 15 hathcery is not only economical but safe and the best way into mid game, dont forget the queen on your base is for creep at the beginning and the natural for injections as you cant support all the larva production with such a low income basically 15 hathc its better in every aspect not only economical but for evolving when facing an enemy
you can make armies fast, switch between bases if agression have your creep fast for the 3rd base etc etc etc
|
Obviously, the mineral income of hatch builds is superior to the slow hatch player as soon as you reach 16 drones, which is a lot, lot faster than 50 supply or 6 minutes...
|
B12ad's numbers look ok to me. He didn't do 15 hatch but I feel like 15 hatch 14 pool feels even better than 14 hatch 14 pool even if the numbers on paper are small. I feel like I have more econ with hatch first so I'm skeptical of op's assumption that hatch first doesn't give more econ than pool first. I would need some a lot of evidence proving otherwise to change my mind.
|
A huge benefit to getting creep at ur Natural, and throwing down a spine crawler in a nice location is better early defense then queen and lings, because a spine crawler cost 1 larva, and will be as effective as 6 or so zerglings(3 larva) early on. So, a spine crawler with a couple of zerglings can allow u to hold off pressure well using other larva to power drones.
Also, read Turkis above (page 1) - u can use your second queens first 25 energy to throw down that creep tumor and start spreading creep like MAD right away. while ur first queen (in main) injects her heart out.
Because u began spreading creep so fast you will see any further pressure coming (also with nice overlord placement) and have adequate time to prepare.
Me personally, I go hatch first if its long distance between bases (xel'naga caverns) and i go pool first if its a shorter distance (steppes of war).
Of course this is all MU dependant as well...
|
According to the build order calculator, a spawning pool on 14 will finish at 2:48 while 14 hatch 14 pool will let the spawning pool finish at 3:25 (14 hatch, 13 pool would be 3:20). This only applies in the model of that webside, but it's quite accurate.
How do you defend your hatchery first opening for example on xel'naga caverns against a Protoss, who went forge first and blocks your ramp with two pylons?
I fear that you can only go hatchery first on extreme long ways, e. g. cross positions on big maps like metalopolis and shakuras plateau.
|
On October 30 2010 21:07 Perscienter wrote:
How do you defend your hatchery first opening for example on xel'naga caverns against a Protoss, who went forge first and blocks your ramp with two pylons?
The short answer is don't let that happen. When you make the hatch, send out a drone to stand in the way of where the pylons would build. Also, as soon as you see that scout probe, have a drone follow it until you have lings out.
Also, your scouting drone should give you notice of whether he's building a forge or not.
|
From seeing the statistics provided by posters it seems FE (14 hatch) is just a matter of preference rather than basis of solid proof of its advantages.
|
I'd like to make a point that anything later than a 14 hatch seems way too risky to consider unless you're banking on your opponent not cheesing you.
|
I caught Destiny's stream that he did this and what i took away from it is using liquipedia's 15 pool FE build you have the same eco and food as 14 hatch while giving you the ability to clear any sort of probe/scv harrass with a couple early zerglings. i mean no one here has never been blocked before the 14 hatch? srsly wtf :D
|
Usually when the queen pops, Idra puts down creep tumors and that lets him spread creep alot earlier/quicker. Also, you get your natural up faster so that helps you since you reach mini saturation once u get 2 drones per patch or around 16, which is relatively quick.
I go 14 pool then 15 hatch against zerg/random and 15 hatch against terran/toss
|
On October 31 2010 06:50 Azn_Christian wrote:
Usually when the queen pops, Idra puts down creep tumors and that lets him spread creep alot earlier/quicker. Also, you get your natural up faster so that helps you since you reach mini saturation once u get 2 drones per patch or around 16, which is relatively quick.
I go 14 pool then 15 hatch against zerg/random and 15 hatch against terran/toss
Yeah with 14 Hatch 14 Pool, you can use use your first 25 on BOTH Queens on creep tumours and not have any left over minerals to spend on larvae. The intial larvae count from 2 Hatcheries is more than you need that early on. You can connect your main and nat, as well as have creep starting to spread out from your nat. And once you start injecting both Hatches you can have both bases saturated incredibly fast.
So yeah. What you said, 100%.
On October 31 2010 05:29 B12ad wrote:
I'd like to make a point that anything later than a 14 hatch seems way too risky to consider unless you're banking on your opponent not cheesing you.
I once went Hatch first, and due to being distracted by my roommate, accidently forgot to drop a Pool until 20 supply. 
Luckily my opponent forge expanded despite seeing my stupidly late Pool hahaha.
|
As a toss player i feel like pool first is a better choice, coz what i like to do against zerg is scout early, and if see no pool i send my probe to block the expo by building a pylon there.
After tht the zerg player is stuck with 300 minerals , nothing 2 spend it on untill you get your pool done and couple of lings out to take care of the pylon.
|
United States11637 Posts
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
