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On October 30 2010 09:13 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I decided to test this just because the notion that hatch first wasn't more economical sounded absurd to me. Note: I ONLY tested the builds trying to maximize economy (building two queens as soon as possible, spending all energy on larva, all larva on drones and overs, maynarding etc.) so this says nothing about which is better strategy, safer, or creep friendly.
I performed both builds as efficiently as possible multiple times and took the average of each after pausing each game at exactly 6:20. I picked this time because I noted in each build it was the moment with the least units in production, right after drone pops. Here are the results:
14 pool 15 hatch:
Minerals: 590
Drones: 44
Overlords: 7
14 hatch 14 pool:
Minerals: 735
Drones: 48
Overlords: 7
Edit: Added previous posters build
10 pool 16 hatch:
Minerals: 640
Drones: 44
Overlords: 6
I know everyone likes to get caught up on technicalities, but my tests seem to confirm the assumption, that hatch first is more economical. The 10pool build actually did surprisingly well, perhaps we should focus on this fact more. If anyone wants to debate this or suggest a better method of testing, please do.
I would appreciate it if you would test out the variation I thought that would maximize the bonus of the first queen without sacrificing early economy for useless zerglings you don't need against non-cheesy play, especially a Terran who isn't pressuring. If you don't delay the hatchery you WILL get supply blocked and have less drones mining minerals than you could have etc... try slightly different timings if you must but in general if you get 2-4 early zerglings out with that pool first you are defeating the purpose of the argument against hatchery first. There is no way pool first can be as economical as a hatchery first if you start zerglings as soon as the pool finishes.
My variation of the pool first play went as follows: 14 pool, 16 overlord, 18 queen, 20 hatchery, 2nd queen after first, 6 drones after you place down pool then zerglings, scout with zerglings, 25 gas 1 & 2, 23 overlord, drones.
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You are not assuming the point that 15 hathcery is not only economical but safe and the best way into mid game, dont forget the queen on your base is for creep at the beginning and the natural for injections as you cant support all the larva production with such a low income basically 15 hathc its better in every aspect not only economical but for evolving when facing an enemy
you can make armies fast, switch between bases if agression have your creep fast for the 3rd base etc etc etc
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Obviously, the mineral income of hatch builds is superior to the slow hatch player as soon as you reach 16 drones, which is a lot, lot faster than 50 supply or 6 minutes...
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B12ad's numbers look ok to me. He didn't do 15 hatch but I feel like 15 hatch 14 pool feels even better than 14 hatch 14 pool even if the numbers on paper are small. I feel like I have more econ with hatch first so I'm skeptical of op's assumption that hatch first doesn't give more econ than pool first. I would need some a lot of evidence proving otherwise to change my mind.
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A huge benefit to getting creep at ur Natural, and throwing down a spine crawler in a nice location is better early defense then queen and lings, because a spine crawler cost 1 larva, and will be as effective as 6 or so zerglings(3 larva) early on. So, a spine crawler with a couple of zerglings can allow u to hold off pressure well using other larva to power drones.
Also, read Turkis above (page 1) - u can use your second queens first 25 energy to throw down that creep tumor and start spreading creep like MAD right away. while ur first queen (in main) injects her heart out.
Because u began spreading creep so fast you will see any further pressure coming (also with nice overlord placement) and have adequate time to prepare.
Me personally, I go hatch first if its long distance between bases (xel'naga caverns) and i go pool first if its a shorter distance (steppes of war).
Of course this is all MU dependant as well...
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According to the build order calculator, a spawning pool on 14 will finish at 2:48 while 14 hatch 14 pool will let the spawning pool finish at 3:25 (14 hatch, 13 pool would be 3:20). This only applies in the model of that webside, but it's quite accurate.
How do you defend your hatchery first opening for example on xel'naga caverns against a Protoss, who went forge first and blocks your ramp with two pylons?
I fear that you can only go hatchery first on extreme long ways, e. g. cross positions on big maps like metalopolis and shakuras plateau.
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On October 30 2010 21:07 Perscienter wrote:
How do you defend your hatchery first opening for example on xel'naga caverns against a Protoss, who went forge first and blocks your ramp with two pylons?
The short answer is don't let that happen. When you make the hatch, send out a drone to stand in the way of where the pylons would build. Also, as soon as you see that scout probe, have a drone follow it until you have lings out.
Also, your scouting drone should give you notice of whether he's building a forge or not.
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From seeing the statistics provided by posters it seems FE (14 hatch) is just a matter of preference rather than basis of solid proof of its advantages.
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I'd like to make a point that anything later than a 14 hatch seems way too risky to consider unless you're banking on your opponent not cheesing you.
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I caught Destiny's stream that he did this and what i took away from it is using liquipedia's 15 pool FE build you have the same eco and food as 14 hatch while giving you the ability to clear any sort of probe/scv harrass with a couple early zerglings. i mean no one here has never been blocked before the 14 hatch? srsly wtf :D
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Usually when the queen pops, Idra puts down creep tumors and that lets him spread creep alot earlier/quicker. Also, you get your natural up faster so that helps you since you reach mini saturation once u get 2 drones per patch or around 16, which is relatively quick.
I go 14 pool then 15 hatch against zerg/random and 15 hatch against terran/toss
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On October 31 2010 06:50 Azn_Christian wrote:
Usually when the queen pops, Idra puts down creep tumors and that lets him spread creep alot earlier/quicker. Also, you get your natural up faster so that helps you since you reach mini saturation once u get 2 drones per patch or around 16, which is relatively quick.
I go 14 pool then 15 hatch against zerg/random and 15 hatch against terran/toss
Yeah with 14 Hatch 14 Pool, you can use use your first 25 on BOTH Queens on creep tumours and not have any left over minerals to spend on larvae. The intial larvae count from 2 Hatcheries is more than you need that early on. You can connect your main and nat, as well as have creep starting to spread out from your nat. And once you start injecting both Hatches you can have both bases saturated incredibly fast.
So yeah. What you said, 100%.
On October 31 2010 05:29 B12ad wrote:
I'd like to make a point that anything later than a 14 hatch seems way too risky to consider unless you're banking on your opponent not cheesing you.
I once went Hatch first, and due to being distracted by my roommate, accidently forgot to drop a Pool until 20 supply. 
Luckily my opponent forge expanded despite seeing my stupidly late Pool hahaha.
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As a toss player i feel like pool first is a better choice, coz what i like to do against zerg is scout early, and if see no pool i send my probe to block the expo by building a pylon there.
After tht the zerg player is stuck with 300 minerals , nothing 2 spend it on untill you get your pool done and couple of lings out to take care of the pylon.
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United States11637 Posts
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EPT
