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On October 29 2010 06:28 VelRa_G wrote:
Might I just mention the main reason why people expand, especially zerg.
The earlier a set number of workers is mining across more mineral fields, the later those fields will deplete. The fewer fields are depleted, the higher your mining efficiency.
Fast expanding is a strategy that emphasizes the late-game, as evidenced by this rule.
Very good point 
I've never really thought of it like that. I guess if you don't make it past the early game though, it doesn't really matter.
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I think its worth noting that you have slightly higher mining efficiency off the second base. I usually go 14 Hatch vs. P and T if I don't see like 2 gate or 3 raxxxuuuu. I never hatch first vs. Zerg. Thats just asking to get mass speedlingd.
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Do you have a replays to prove your point. Because all your doing is making up unsupported claims.
If BW and SC2 so far has shown us the best economic build is always Expansion first builds.
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On October 29 2010 06:33 DreamSailor wrote:
I think its worth noting that you have slightly higher mining efficiency off the second base. I usually go 14 Hatch vs. P and T if I don't see like 2 gate or 3 raxxxuuuu. I never hatch first vs. Zerg. Thats just asking to get mass speedlingd.
Why would you ever do that in a ZvZ. Were talking about ZvT and ZvP
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On October 29 2010 06:28 VelRa_G wrote:
Might I just mention the main reason why people expand, especially zerg.
The earlier a set number of workers is mining across more mineral fields, the later those fields will deplete. The fewer fields are depleted, the higher your mining efficiency.
Fast expanding is a strategy that emphasizes the late-game, as evidenced by this rule.
Sorry but completely irrelevant. If you are so determined to not get mined out in your main you can transfer 16 drones to your natural off the pool first build since 16 drones has ZERO diminishing returns compared to <16 drones mining.
I think this is an EXTREMELY interesting discussion and i really wonder if people can come up with a reason to get that hatch first.
The larvae cannot be the reason as f.e. Idra uses his first 25 energy on BOTH queens for creep tumors since he cannot spend all the larvae he gets from 2 hatch+q.
The only thing i can think of is creep spread. You can really get the creep going with 2 queens and 2 hatches, compared to being strapped for larvae off of 1 hatch. However, I'd rather not die to early pressure more than to have better creep spread.
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On October 29 2010 00:53 Bitters wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 00:37 bevey wrote:
Hatchery first is optimal for a few reasons
1 - Creep spread: It allows your zerglings and roaches to defend against hellions and early harass
2 - Larva: One of the resources that you are starved for in the beginning of the game is larva
3 - Early Static Defense: Since you need creep to build on the earlier you get your hatch up the earlier you can put down a spine crawler.
4 - Wall ins: Since everyone walls in vs zerg early pressure is very risky because it puts pressure on you to do dmg which is very hard to do against people with wall ins. Since early pressure is so risky many people decide to go for an economic opening and hatch first is the way as stated above. 1- could see faster creep at nat being beneficial 2- you don't get more larvae doing hatch before pool, that's why i made this thread 3- similar to 1, but you can get access to lings/queen faster for defense as well 4- my first post highlights that there is no economic benefit of hatch first
Im only in platinum, but i am definitely POSITIVE that goin hatch before pool gives you more larva. First off, you get double the hatcheries, which produces double the larva, and gives you 2 hatcheries to use inject larva. There is absolutely no way that you do not get more larva.
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What's important to me is the timing of the larva - with the hatch first build the larva come one at a time every 10 seconds from both hatches, and the new hatch spawns WITH a larva. With the pool first build, I have to wait for all 4 to come at once 40 seconds after the first queen inject. Having those 2 larva 20 seconds earlier can make all the difference against early pressure.
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Map presence/Map control.
Creep to make spines etc.
Creep spread for tumors etc.
More hatch = more queens faster if needed
More geyser access faster. Some of the maps have 1 or more badly placed geysers in the main and nats, so often times my 2nd gas will be at the nat where it's a better positioning.
also, 1 base with 30 drones is not as good as 2 bases with 15 drones. They mine more efficiently. And a side effect of this is the bases last longer.
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Creep spread is huge for me, and I also think it's easier to defend early pushes, not like cheese rushes, but puhes that come around 30ish food. If you pool first, then the hatch at your natural is defendable only by lings and maybe 1 queen until it finishes and then the creep starts spreading out. If they attack before you can get spines up, then it usually takes a large amount of lings for you to be able to defend that. Also, without the creep between the two queens, then the 2nd queen at your main can't really help to defend early pushes. That's usually why I hatch first.
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Overpool / 13 Queen + Scoutling / 18 OL + Extractor / 20 Hatchery
In my opinion superior to Hatch before pool. And the Hatchery + 2nd Queen should still be up in time for those pushes.
But I'm so used to 14 Hatch, most often I only think of other options when it's too late.
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i think the advantage is at top level only, as usually the scout tries to deny the hatch. With 14 hatch you are mostly early enough to put the hatch before the scout arrives to block the hatch
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i don't think the OP was clear in mentioning the BO's tested. perhaps if that was added as an edit it would help clarify his thinking. in the tests on destiny's stream, the 2nd hatch was still really early. it'd would have to be corrected if i'm wrong, but the BO's tested were:
FE - 15h/14p
pool - 13p/16h
the result of the tests in a race to 50 drones was clearly the extra queen and larvae from pool first was more than enough to compensate for the slightly delayed hatch. equal econ and "safer" early game.
it would be nice if OP or one of destiny's mods could have him post that replay
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On October 29 2010 06:47 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Map presence/Map control.
Creep to make spines etc.
Creep spread for tumors etc.
More hatch = more queens faster if needed
More geyser access faster. Some of the maps have 1 or more badly placed geysers in the main and nats, so often times my 2nd gas will be at the nat where it's a better positioning.
also, 1 base with 30 drones is not as good as 2 bases with 15 drones. They mine more efficiently. And a side effect of this is the bases last longer.
sorry but with just a little blind hatch you will NOT establish map control. You essentially give it to the other player.
Why would you need a lot of queens before the 4 minute mark?
Why would you need more than 2 geysers before the 4 minute mark?
The only thing that is actually a legit reason up to now is creep spread.
The pool first only gets the second hatchery 40 seconds later, if you put more drones in your natural you can avoid getting mined out in the main. This is also irrelevant.
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As a terran player I feel that why would you expend resources on going for a pool first versus terran against a now void cheese. As if you're facing a protoss player, I can understand going pool first, but versus terran now there is really no big point. The thing is a one basing protoss or terran player can easily get a scout to your natural at around the 15 food mark and see that yoru hatchery is not up yet, drawing the conclusion that they can tech up very quickly and get higher tech units while you're waiting for a second hatchery. Zerglings wont really help here defend against say, a banshee. Another thing they could do would be to be super aggressive against this build, while you wait for your 16 hatch to finish, we could be pushing out and the zerg doesnt have the creep up as fast as you would want. Droning up to 50 drones doesnt really matter when your base is getting owned by marine marauder.
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The main reason for hatch first is creep spread without any real economic hit. When your 2 queens spawn, you can use their first 25 energy to lay down 2 creep tumors, as you have enough larva at that point. Earlier creep spread = more vision + faster units later in the the game.
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I think the main advantage is for getting creep out faster. You can use creep tumor instead of larvae inject and creep spreads faster. It optimizes energy gain from queens but not wasting it on injects.
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On October 29 2010 07:03 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 06:47 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Map presence/Map control.
Creep to make spines etc.
Creep spread for tumors etc.
More hatch = more queens faster if needed
More geyser access faster. Some of the maps have 1 or more badly placed geysers in the main and nats, so often times my 2nd gas will be at the nat where it's a better positioning.
also, 1 base with 30 drones is not as good as 2 bases with 15 drones. They mine more efficiently. And a side effect of this is the bases last longer. sorry but with just a little blind hatch you will NOT establish map control. You essentially give it to the other player. Why would you need a lot of queens before the 4 minute mark? Why would you need more than 2 geysers before the 4 minute mark? The only thing that is actually a legit reason up to now is creep spread.The pool first only gets the second hatchery 40 seconds later, if you put more drones in your natural you can avoid getting mined out in the main. This is also irrelevant.
Once again the non specifics of comparing the hatch first to which build produces some assumptions you are making.
Second good players (which you obviously don't face or you'd understand) love to deny a zerg an early expansion either through an engineering bay(which has become popular thanks to GSL overadvertising it) or a pylon and canon trap, the difference between hatch first and pool first can be that you don't get an expansion until almost 25-30 food if that early, try that comparison and tell me the difference.
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On October 29 2010 01:34 hoovehand wrote:
how can you not get more larva from a second hatch?
the difference is minimal, but you still get the larva earlier which means you can spend your minerals earlier and get more units out earlier.
also, if you wait before hatch there's a greater chance the opposing player can pressure and make it far more difficult to claim.
queen's inject larvae is better than the hatcheries own larvae spawn. so a pool first, queen, then hatchery would end up in more larvae than hatchery, pool, queen
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After reading this thread I began studying the idea of pool first with the intent on abusing the earlier queen.
My standard play has always been as follows: 14 hatch, 13 pool, 16 overlord, 2 queens, 2 sets of zerglings, 25 gas 1 & 2, 23 overlord, drones, scout with zerglings.
My variation of the pool first play went as follows: 14 pool, 16 overlord, 18 queen, 20 hatchery, 2nd queen after first, 6 drones after you place down pool then zerglings, scout with zerglings, 25 gas 1 & 2, 23 overlord, drones.
After those guidelines, I go into my standard midgame with both.
After playing several different games with 14 pool, I've concluded that I will get into the same exact mid game as my 14 hatch.
I feel the differences between the builds are how they cope with early pressure. The creep at the expansion is late so therefore spine crawlers are late and that allows for stronger earlier attacks. I feel as though 14 hatch is stronger at dealing with all the pressure thrown at you because 14 pool comes too late to really deny allins, both plays suggest the use of drones to stop cannon rushes and bunker rushes, and neither play has a good answer to a surprise ebay at your natural. 14 hatch can be placed before a terran has an opportunity to ebay while with a 14 pool you are forced to build zerglings which defeats the purpose of the build. I feel as though there is no point in doing this build if you're making lings as soon as the pool pops or getting supply blocked as it will harm your economy more than with a standard 14 hatch. I feel both styles are viable and that 14 pool is a harder and slightly more flexible opening to utilize properly.
Another point I'd like to cover is there shouldn't be any room for you to creep tumor on your first 25 energy on the first two queens, you will generate enough minerals to spend on the larvae and you will eventually have a surplus in minerals rather an inability to use larvae. The only time that made sense to get an early creep tumor is after your one spawn larvae you get ONE creep tumor and return to spawning larvae.
My final conclusion is that neither build is completely better than the other, it is all preference and your ability to play that matters.
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There are 3 reasons to go hatch first.
1.) Getting your hatchery down before early pressure, especially hellions. Once a hatchery is up at lot of early pressure can't take it down before you can push them back. If you wait, you put yourself at more risk.
2.) Creep spread, being able to get good creep spread early on and not being bottle necked at your ramp substantially speeds up the rate that your creep gets out, basically the radius of a single creep tumour in all directions.
3.) Queens are awesome. With an early hatchery you can get craploads of queens out, like Dimaga does. When you get 6 queens out off two bases, you don't spend any larva on them, all your larva bar 1 for a couple zerglings goes into drones. You get extra creep spread really fast so that your zerglings are more efficient holding off a push when it does come, and when you have that many they store up enough energy to transfuse each other.
If you go pool first you can't get enough queens out and you generally need lair tech for decent anti air, without being pinned down under the cover of your spore crawlers while the terran player dances around your base with his banshees.
So yeah hatch first in ZvT or ZvP is way better if it's not blocked, but you just send the drone before you have enough minerals to buy it anyway and if you can get the probe off the spot before you get enough you can always go pool instead.
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EPT
