EPTEDIT: This thread is a little outdated now. For a thread with better results, data, and graphs, try this link:
A Second Look at Zerg Openings
I have seen many threads on TL debating whether hatch first, 9 pool, 10 pool, 16 pool, etc. is the most economical. These threads have rarely reached a consensus or conclusion. Therefore:
The purpose of this thread is to scientifically conclude as best as possible which opening build order is the most economical for Zerg, and also to provide data to compare the relative strengths of one build to another.
The scientific method:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest
Please post your suggestion for the most economical zerg build order, being as thorough, detailed, and specific as possible (ie. maynarding, overlord timing, queen locations, etc.) to avoid confusion or disagreement regarding results. Any dispute regarding published results must supply a replay to counter. Each recommended build will be tested in a custom game, (not a tester/optimizer/etc.) by a diamond zerg player with solid APM playing at slow game speed. Every game will be run on the same location on the same map. The time will be stopped at intervals from 4:30 to 7:00 for data to be assessed. Posted results are taken from 6:00. ALL data will be assessed in making a determination, including:
Total minerals mined (Minerals spent + minerals unspent - necessary corrections for extractor trick)
Drone count
Overlord count
Mineral count
Units in production
Unspent larva
If relevant, queen energy.
The most weighted data will be total minerals mined and drone count. Units in production will be prorated based upon their level of completion. The percentage of minerals mined from one base compared to another will not be factored into the data, nor will minerals in transit.
What this thread is NOT for: Theorycrafting, claims without specific builds or replays, results from "optimizers" or testers, any strategy discussion including a build's safety, creep spread, hatch blocking, etc... We are only trying to deduce how to maximize economy to build a foundation for further discussion.
This area of the original post will be reserved for the current leading economy build order along with a replay for analysis:
Current Leader(s):
+ Show Spoiler +
See graph for results over time.
1st Place:
Submitted by Fenam, modified by jdseemoreglass
9 Overlord
14 Hatch
15 Pool
17 Overlord
17 Rally main to expo
19 Queen
21 Queen
26 Overlord
30 Overlord
30 Overlord
42 Rally main to main
43 Overlord
54 Overlord
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170373.jpg)
2nd Place:
Submitted by Lomilar, modified by jdseemoreglass
10 Extractor trick
11 Overlord
11 Pool (finishes @ 2:38)
16 Queen
18 Hatch (finishes @ 4:44)
17 Overlord
18 Overlord
21 Queen
28 Overlord
28 Maynard 7 drones
36 Overlord
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170021.jpg)
Sample diamond replays of this build in action:
+ Show Spoiler +
I played five games today on diamond ladder (2200+) using the 11pool and won 4/5 convincingly.
The first game illustrates how flexible this build is in reverting to an all-in attack. I scout my opponent opening hatch first, so that is exactly what I go for. Going hatch first or 14 pool would prevent this sort of pressure, and would potentially negate what is for me an easy victory.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170544.jpg)
Game two illustrates how well this build can hold up against a 4gate. This felt like the easiest 4gate I have ever held off because I had many units out quickly. At first I assumed my opponent was making a mistake, or was possibly going 3gate-expand, but the replay shows he did fairly well in keeping his resources low and drone count high.
After holding off two attacks I prepare for a mid-game timing attack before his late expansion can reap dividends.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170545.jpg)
In this game my opponent opened with a 7 roach rush into expansion. I thought at first the 18 hatch would be vulnerable to such a rush, but I held it off fairly well with only minor damage taken. If you look at the harvester count after the attack, you will see we are even despite my having lost several drones. If I had cut a couple drones I think I could have held off the even attack better.
From there it is a +1,+1 roach timing push ftw.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170612.jpg)
This is the game I lost. I did not anticipate how quickly the attack was coming. If I had just a few more seconds to complete the third spine crawler and roaches, I think this could have gone differently. Protoss does a good job of showing how to exploit a window of opportunity when at close positions.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170615.jpg)
In this final replay, I faced something that has become quite common since Foxer GSL... a 2rax marine-scv rush. Even with an 18 Hatch down, I survive. I have to pull drones to defend, but the lings get out just in time to clean up, and I counter attack. Here I made the unfortunate mistake of thinking his barracks had a clean wall-off, when it is clear to me now they didn't. I retreated from 1 marine when I could have won outright.
From here Terran expands and walls in his natural fairly well. I decide he has over-extended himself too much, and decide to punish with a baneling bust. Stream after stream of zerglings rush to the front, and he does well barely surviving again and again. Eventually, I kill off enough SCV's to justify the attack just as he bunkers himself in.
From there we switch to a macro game. His mid-game push is just not enough to hold off the swarm. Overall a pretty exciting match.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170620.jpg)
Link to new thread discussing this build as the potential new standard:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173430
Discarded builds: (ordered by resources mined)
+ Show Spoiler +
Submitted by Douillos
9 Overlord
16 Hatch
15 Pool
15 Overlord
18 Queen
20 Queen
Results:
Drones: 40 + 25/17 = 41.47
Overlords: 6
Resources Mined: 4100 + 570 = 4670
Submitted by Phrencys
9 Overlord
14 Pool
16 Hatch
15 Queen
17 Overlord
20 Overlord
20 Queen
32 Overlord
40 Overlord
Results:
Drones: 40 + 31/17 = 41.82
Overlords: 6
Resources Mined: 4200 + 415 = 4615
Submitted by Nafaltar
9 Overlord
15 Pool
16 Hatch
16 Queen
18 Overlord
21 Queen
Results:
Drones: 40 + 10/17 = 40.58
Overlords: 6 + 14/25 = 6.56
Resources Mined: 4000 + 600 = 4600
Queen energy: 18 + 21 = 39
Submitted by McMasters
13 Pool (finishes @ 2:52)
16 Hatch (finishes @ 4:26)
Results:
Drones: 40 + 21/17 = 41.23
Overlords: 6
Minerals Mined: 4000 + 564 = 4564
Queen Energy: 14 + 18
Submitted by Saechiis
(Note: I will have to retest this build getting an earlier overlord to prevent the 6.5 overlord differential, but in the mean-time it loses on Resources Mined. Providing more detailed build orders will help prevent these problems.)
9 overlord
16 pool (finishes @ 3:12)
17 hatch (finishes @ 4:32)
Results:
Drones: 40.5
Overlords: 6.5
Resources Mined: 3800 + 715 = 4515
Queen energy: 12 + 9 = 21
Submitted by niloh
10 Double extractor trick
12 Hatch
11 Overlord
14 Pool
Results:
Drones: 39 + 3/17
Overlords: 6
Resources Mined: 3900 + 540 = 4440
Submitted by mindwarp
14 Pool (finishes @ 3:00)
15 Over
16 Queen
22 Hatch (finishes @ 5:30)
Results:
Drones: 34 + 8/17 = 34.47
Overlords: 6
Minerals Mined: 3600 + 715 = 4315
Queen energy: 19 + 50
Submitted by Shikyo
10 pool (finishes @ 2:16)
Double extractor trick
12 overlord
12 queen
18 overlord
18 hatch (finishes @ 4:57)
24 overlord
24 queen
Results:
Drones: 37.75
Overlords: 6
Resources Mined: 3750 + 543 = 4293
Queen energy: 20 + 35 = 55
If anyone would like to submit replays of their own to speed the process, then complete them on the southern position on the map Xel' Naga Caverns. To provide uniformity of results, rally your hatchery to the center mineral and do not manually reposition drones on closer patches.
EDIT: State of the Thread Report, and thoughts on the criteria of larvae vs minerals in assessing economy.
+ Show Spoiler +
There has been some debate regarding the criteria of larvae vs. minerals to determine the overall "economy" of a build. I thought perhaps it could be resolved by placing a constant conversion rate for one in relation to another. However, after considering my studies of economics, and the law of diminishing marginal utility, I recognize that the subjective value of a good relative to another is dependent upon the constraints the user is presently facing. To illustrate my point, consider the following thought-experiment constraints:
Suppose you have 1 larva and 50 minerals. Which would you prefer more of? Certainly you would prefer more minerals, as that would increase the utility or benefit derived from a single larva. Adding additional larvae would be worth nothing, since you do not have the resources to make use of them.
Now suppose you have 1 larva and 500 minerals. In this case, you would clearly prefer more larvae, since additional minerals would not be of much use given the larva constraint.
Therefore, the more valuable resource depends upon what is currently the greater constraint the player faces. So which is the greater constraint?
In an actual game, this answer would of course depend upon what the player was attempting to accomplish at that time: expanding, saturating, teching, attacking, defending... Up until now we have assumed our player's goal was simply to maximize long-run economy. My first instinct is to say that larvae are the current greater constraint, for we are beginning to stockpile resources faster than we can spend them on larvae. However, this problem could be assuaged by building additional hatcheries and queens, which could perhaps place the constraint on minerals.
The true constraint we have here is neither larvae nor minerals, it is mineral patches. If we had an infinite pool of mineral patches, clearly the 11 pool build would be the most efficient and economical. If we wanted a faster third or fourth hatchery, then we would prefer the 15 hatch build. I know from my own experience that it is very rare to want to take a third hatchery before the 6 minute mark in an actual game.
This is a difficult, if not impossible, question to answer. For now I think we have two very effective builds that serve to satisfy each constraint while still being generally efficient in the other. An earlier queen provides more long-term production capacity than a hatchery, and a hatchery provides greater resource gathering potential than a queen. Let us simply continue gathering data for now. That data, and not the theorycrafting, is after all the true value of this thread.
I am not content with the current pool of builds. We can't claim either of these builds are the leaders until we can test a greater variety of submissions. Go outside the box, if even to provide good evidence of what DOESN'T work, and why. I am still recieving requests to test more refined versions of previous builds. And we still haven't concluded the effects of delaying an exact build by supply timing.
For now I will be expanding the data sample timing to see if perhaps I underestimated the time required to overcome the initial investment of a second hatchery. If the results are significant, we can consider placing the data into a graph of some kind.
-jdseemoreglass
EDIT: After doing repeated tests and analyzing many replays, I am starting to think the X Hatch, X+1 Pool will naturally have a stronger foundation, due to the pool and queen being timed equally to completion. Also, I think an earlier hatch than 16 will allow us to optimally begin maynarding drones without experiencing any diminishing mining returns while on one base.
I will try to perfect the 14 Hatch 15 Pool build order and post my results soon. If my theory is correct, this will likely replace the 16 Hatch 15 Pool build as the leader in resources mined.
EDIT: Testing has been done on the leading builds at various time intervals. The douillos' build has been overcome by a refined 14 Hatch, 15 Pool build. Note there is some variation from the published results due to the additional overlords, and also some optimization in maynarding techniques, which actually smoothed the differences between builds significantly.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/XBELW.png)
"
)
/10 BuildDrone
