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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
 Just so you guys know, this thread is outdated now. I have much better results and data provided in this thread: A Second Look at Zerg Openings Hopefully this link will help to answer some of the newer questions that have been posted. EDIT: I will also update the OP with this link. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On May 16 2011 22:12 imbecile wrote: Actually the minerals spent on the hatch don't eat into your drone count. It is still the larva that limit your drone production ... I spend more time waiting on larva than on minerals. When I go 9 overlord 14 hatch 16pool the only drones beyond 10 that are waiting on minerals are the 14 and 15 after the hatch went down. Both those larva lie idle for about 5s. After that you never will have to wait for minerals but always on larva until the spawn larva kicks in. You can easy afford double queening and putting down spines for defense on top of that ... you still will be waiting for larva, not for minerals. I don't know I never go for a 14 hatch, I always put it down on 15, then the pool on 14-16 depending on spawn locations. I don't have larva problems with this, since the gas is down at 17 and minerals are spent on double queen, 4 lings and a spine, two in the case I go for a 16 pool. Maybe by delaying the gas and increasing the mineral income, or by going 14 hatch 16 pool you do fall short on larvae. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
People seem to argue with the results here that 14 hatch is better than 15 hatch. I guess because all the koreans go 15 hatch, but koreans also went extractor trick every game until only recently too (some still do). I'm all up for 15 hatch proven to be better, but this thread seems to conclude that 14h/15p is the best hatch first opener. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On February 12 2012 13:27 Belial88 wrote: Bumping this. People seem to argue with the results here that 14 hatch is better than 15 hatch. I guess because all the koreans go 15 hatch, but koreans also went extractor trick every game until only recently too (some still do). I'm all up for 15 hatch proven to be better, but this thread seems to conclude that 14h/15p is the best hatch first opener. I believe 14p15 hatch is best economy assuming you are only making drones, but to defend your drones zerg needs extra queens, spines, mining gas. All these extra things cost money so the 15 hatch 16 pool will get an extra 100 minerals when the pool finishes, maybe even more. So you get money for these extra things AND the ability to use all larva for drones. If you chose these extra things with an earlier hatch/pool then you wouldn't have enough money to afford the larva leading to a worse economy. | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
14 scout 14h 14p 17 overlord & pause drone production 4 lings + 2 queens 27 overlord 27 spine 26 queen, when overlord pops 28 queen and double overlord on 36 into whatever. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On February 12 2012 13:27 Belial88 wrote: Bumping this. People seem to argue with the results here that 14 hatch is better than 15 hatch. I guess because all the koreans go 15 hatch, but koreans also went extractor trick every game until only recently too (some still do). I'm all up for 15 hatch proven to be better, but this thread seems to conclude that 14h/15p is the best hatch first opener. Because the tests take no gas, no worker scout + as mentioned above: there is no room for an extra spine/queen. Also note how close those builds are to each other. The difference is not worth the discussion. Actually doing a proper split + drone pairing will have a higher impact than the difference between 14 or 15 hatch, so strategic issues/timings/personal preference is more important and will have a higher impact. Same applies to 9/10 ovie discussion. A 9 ovie will be able to cover your expansion slightly earlier, the economical difference is neglibible. Also note that comparing cumulated ressources mined does not give a realistic impression of the difference at 6'00. More important is to compare the drone count and the difference in ressourced mined compared to total income. Example: If one build A is 50 ressource better at 6'00 compared to build B and the income per minute is 1250 by 6'00, this means build A is ~2 ingame seconds better. 100 resource behind is ~4 to 5 in game seconds (which is significant but not game deciding). | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I believe 14p15 hatch is best economy assuming you are only making drones, but to defend your drones zerg needs extra queens, spines, mining gas. All these extra things cost money so the 15 hatch 16 pool will get an extra 100 minerals when the pool finishes, maybe even more. So you get money for these extra things AND the ability to use all larva for drones. If you chose these extra things with an earlier hatch/pool then you wouldn't have enough money to afford the larva leading to a worse economy. I believe he showed that assuming identical followups, 14hatch15pool is always best. So if you make 2 lings when pool pops, or you take gas at 20, or you throw down a roach warren, whatever, 14hatch/15pool is always better. What you are saying doesn't really make sense anyways. It doesn't really matter how much money you have when pool pops, you can always pool money, or whatever, and both 16h/15p and 14h/15p have about 350 minerals right when pool pops. Because the tests take no gas, no worker scout + as mentioned above: there is no room for an extra spine/queen. Also note how close those builds are to each other. In his testing he specifically mentioned that gas, worker scout, et cetera, doesn't change the order of the builds. So if you are comparing 6p, 8p, 10p, 12p, and the order is in that same way it turns out, well, having a drone scout at 9, or gas at 15, doesn't change the order in which builds are better. I believe this was answered in the "Second Look...." thread. Actually doing a proper split + drone pairing will have a higher impact than the difference between 14 or 15 hatch, so strategic issues/timings/personal preference is more important and will have a higher impact. Accroding to the tests done here, no it won't. Drone split+Drone pairing is about 25 minerals extra, while 14 hatch is about 100 minerals ahead of 16 hatch. I think I saw somewhere that it's 50 minerals ahead of 15hatch as well. But in the scheme of things, no, drone pairing, 14 hatch vs 16 hatch, don't matter. But we all drone pair because it's a 'free' advantage, just like 14 hatch is better for a 'free' advantage too. No reason not to do the most optimal build. We could always go back to 11 hatch 11 pool like Fruitdealer used to do in season one. Same applies to 9/10 ovie discussion. A 9 ovie will be able to cover your expansion slightly earlier, the economical difference is neglibible. The mineral difference was 'proven' to be about 10-20. The OP actually goes really indepth about overlord timing in "A Second Look...." thread. No, not a big deal, but why go 10 overlord at all. And, that was with a computer doing it I think, he said that a person doing it made it more like 15-25. Also note that comparing cumulated ressources mined does not give a realistic impression of the difference at 6'00. More important is to compare the drone count and the difference in ressourced mined compared to total income. Example: If one build A is 50 ressource better at 6'00 compared to build B and the income per minute is 1250 by 6'00, this means build A is ~2 ingame seconds better. 100 resource behind is ~4 to 5 in game seconds (which is significant but not game deciding). He does do that.... are you reading the graphs? Read the OP, he compares drone count and compares resources mined... All it's doing is showing which build is better. If you make pure drones all game, or if you make pure lings, or take gas at 20, assuming identical follow ups, the 'rankings' of best builds is always the same. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On February 13 2012 01:45 Belial88 wrote: I believe he showed that assuming identical followups, 14hatch15pool is always best. So if you make 2 lings when pool pops, or you take gas at 20, or you throw down a roach warren, whatever, 14hatch/15pool is always better. What you are saying doesn't really make sense anyways. It doesn't really matter how much money you have when pool pops, you can always pool money, or whatever, and both 16h/15p and 14h/15p have about 350 minerals right when pool pops. If the build is too tight in minerals, you cannot spend your larvae, so you lose hatchery larvae creation (3 larvae idle). This may happen with 14 hatch more easy. Obviously missing minerals (because of gas or scout) easily can delay a Queen or important tec In his testing he specifically mentioned that gas, worker scout, et cetera, doesn't change the order of the builds. So if you are comparing 6p, 8p, 10p, 12p, and the order is in that same way it turns out, well, having a drone scout at 9, or gas at 15, doesn't change the order in which builds are better. I believe this was answered in the "Second Look...." thread. This does not make it the truth. In an optimal build you can barely spend your larvae in time = production and income are balanced. If larvae stockpiles, larvae creation stops. So in fact any deviation reducing mineral income (e.g. mining gas, scouting) can delay your build timings. That's the reason why in practice people prefer builds with a slight mineral overhead. Accroding to the tests done here, no it won't. Drone split+Drone pairing is about 25 minerals extra, while 14 hatch is about 100 minerals ahead of 16 hatch. I think I saw somewhere that it's 50 minerals ahead of 15hatch as well. You make me tired sry .. as I mentioned in the previous post (you did not get it there, see below), absolute "mineral advantage" is meaningless. You always have to look at what time the mineral advantage is created. 50 mineral advantage at 3'00 is more than 100 minerals at 6'00. Better think in "time advantage" not "mineral advantage". Drone pairing gives a permanent mining income advantage which snowballs over time .. there was a thread some weeks ago. He does do that.... are you reading the graphs? Read the OP, he compares drone count and compares resources mined... All it's doing is showing which build is better. If you make pure drones all game, or if you make pure lings, or take gas at 20, assuming identical follow ups, the 'rankings' of best builds is always the same. Ofc I read the graphs. Try to understand what i wrote, its about the importance of the [bold]time[/bold] a mineral advantage exists. To illustrate my point drastically: if 2 players have an income of 2400 minerals per minute (late game) and one player has a cumulated resource advantage of 40 (from the initial build order), the other player will be even 1 in game second later. if 2 player have an income of 400 and one player has a cumulated advantage of 40, the other player is 6 seconds behind, because that is the time he needs to reach the same amount of overall mined minerals. So go and repeat the same build 4 times and check your timings and income in the replay. You'll notice that the deviation in time can easily make up some seconds (when > 3 minutes in the game). So the long term difference of 14 vs 15 hatch is lower than most masters players natural build deviation. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If the build is too tight in minerals, you cannot spend your larvae, so you lose hatchery larvae creation (3 larvae idle). This may happen with 14 hatch more easy. Obviously missing minerals (because of gas or scout) easily can delay a Queen or important tec No it doesn't? It's about pool relative to hatchery timing, not the lone timing of the hatch. Both 16/15 and 14/15 get pool and hatch up at the same time. And a 10 drone scout just loses you about 50 minerals than if you don't drone scout when pool pops, which you can just wait a few seconds for, so it's not the biggest deal... What you are saying just doesn't make sense. Your bashing 14 hatch, when it's proven to be better in the OP. You say things that are just accusations. Why don't you just try the build out, I'm sure you'll be surprised that it's actually just like 16 hatch in how it feels and the timings. This does not make it the truth. In an optimal build you can barely spend your larvae in time = production and income are balanced. If larvae stockpiles, larvae creation stops. So in fact any deviation reducing mineral income (e.g. mining gas, scouting) can delay your build timings. That's the reason why in practice people prefer builds with a slight mineral overhead. All I was responding to was your statement of "hey gas is important, and this build isn't realistic because it doesn't take that into account". A 14 hatch is ~100 minerals ahead of 16 hatch. If you get gas at 20, or make 4 lings, or whatever identical builds afterwards, it's still going to be ~100 minerals ahead. You make me tired sry .. as I mentioned in the previous post (you did not get it there, see below), absolute "mineral advantage" is meaningless. You always have to look at what time the mineral advantage is created. 50 mineral advantage at 3'00 is more than 100 minerals at 6'00. Better think in "time advantage" not "mineral advantage". Drone pairing gives a permanent mining income advantage which snowballs over time .. there was a thread some weeks ago. It's about Worker Count and Resources mined. These are the two most important factors to judge a build. A 50 mineral advantage at 3:00 doesn't really mean much for the long term - you could theoretically never put down the hatchery, just one base,and you'd have a 3:00 mineral advantage, but not at 6:00. To compare builds, you make drones, and compare drone count and minerals mined at a point when the builds have stabilized. So at 6:00, every build is going to have constant drone production with injects, so no one is going to go up or down in ranking after 6:00. This has already been figured out a long time ago man. 14 hatch/15 pool is best opener. Feel free to prove him wrong. All you are saying is talk and goofy stuff about timings or larval production. Whatever, they did some pretty thorough testing here proving 14hatch/15pool is the best opener. Feel free to prove him wrong. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I don't know why 14 hatch is better, but according to the testing done in this thread, it just is. The OP also explained (i believe in the second look thread) that, assuming identical drone scout timing or gas timing or unit production or tech, the ordering of how builds stack up is still the same. So if you 10 drone scout, make a gas at 15, and pull 8 drones at 17 supply for 30 seconds to deal with a 2 rax, then the 14 hatch will still have the same ~100 mineral advantage over 16 hatch 5 minutes later. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 13 2012 03:19 Belial88 wrote: The guy tested it by doing the build in a game and comparing drone counts and resources mined in certain points of the game. I don't know why 14 hatch is better, but according to the testing done in this thread, it just is. The OP also explained (i believe in the second look thread) that, assuming identical drone scout timing or gas timing or unit production or tech, the ordering of how builds stack up is still the same. So if you 10 drone scout, make a gas at 15, and pull 8 drones at 17 supply for 30 seconds to deal with a 2 rax, then the 14 hatch will still have the same ~100 mineral advantage over 16 hatch 5 minutes later. If he's doing it in game, then how the hell can he compare the builds? He's not even keeping variables constant. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On February 13 2012 02:52 Belial88 wrote: What you are saying just doesn't make sense. Your bashing 14 hatch, when it's proven to be better in the OP. You say things that are just accusations. Why don't you just try the build out, I'm sure you'll be surprised that it's actually just like 16 hatch in how it feels and the timings. I am not bashing it, i just tell you there are a lot of other things which are more important. It just does not make a notable difference economy wise. Personally i love my 11 before ovie pool, i never hatch first as it is not worth the risk imo (i experimented with a lot of different builds in the past and finally settled with 11 before ovie pool when playing ladder). So lets stop to contaminate this excellent thread with noob talk  BTW 14 hatch is better in theory, because the hatch finishes earlier so you get ~one larvae more. The whole test scenario is unrealistic compared to a real game, so take the results with a grain of salt. Another fact makes gas timing important: If you take gas, your main does not get oversaturated that fast. One of the major reasons hatch first is so good in this test, is that you avoid oversaturation because of the fast hatch. However if you take gas, oversaturation is 4 drones later, so oversaturation does not come that fast as in the test scenario. When you look at the pro builds, you 'll notice that all the early pool-late expansion builds take an ~early gas to avoid oversaturation (e.g. nesteas 12 pool). | ||
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