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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
In my opinion, at a non-pro level at least, 100-200 minerals is less of an advantage than having a pool at 11. Allows a relatively safe expand at 18 and defense against early pressure. Its similar to the double extractor trick debate, FD uses it because it allows flexibility although slightly less economical. | ||
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sixzeros
72 Posts
If early aggression were no object.... 10 lord + extractor trick 15 hatch 16 hatch (in base or on an obvious 3rd which you expect the enemy to attack) 18 pool 20 lord x2 21 queen 23 queen 25 queen inject inject inject drone like mad transfer 1/2 your drones to expo 39 lord x2 drone drone drone... Assuming moderate aggression.. And before everyone harks on about how it cant be practical and cant work.. okay it is risky, but lets just say, there are ways to survive if you are creative, and have allies to support you. This build can get you to 70 drones in 7 minutes. You will have the economy and drone count to be able to drop 15 crawlers if you need. With a creep spread those crawlers can advance and form the fallback line of an advancing push. At 5 minutes you can drop 5 emergency crawlers on your expo and send 3 queens to the front, if you skip an inject on one of them (you can afford to), you can transfuse a creep or a queen. This can hold a 6 minute push, and if you see it coming you can pump lings to support it. Beyond this, especially if no early pressure, then you are typically 200 supply maxed when everyone else is struggling at less than 120, if you add another 3 hatches at around 7 to 8 minutes, and take a 3rd, then you can inject on 2 hatches per queen, waste 100 units at a time and rebuild them almost instantly. In multiplayer games or FFA's it can lead into a totally dominant mid game, and best of all, this is a REALLY fun build to play around with in multi's. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On December 16 2010 15:42 sixzeros wrote: Something seemingly unconsidered is the following fun build... If early aggression were no object.... 10 lord + extractor trick 15 hatch 16 hatch (in base or on an obvious 3rd which you expect the enemy to attack) 18 pool 20 lord x2 21 queen 23 queen 25 queen inject inject inject drone like mad transfer 1/2 your drones to expo 39 lord x2 drone drone drone... Assuming moderate aggression.. And before everyone harks on about how it cant be practical and cant work.. okay it is risky, but lets just say, there are ways to survive if you are creative, and have allies to support you. This build can get you to 70 drones in 7 minutes. You will have the economy and drone count to be able to drop 15 crawlers if you need. With a creep spread those crawlers can advance and form the fallback line of an advancing push. At 5 minutes you can drop 5 emergency crawlers on your expo and send 3 queens to the front, if you skip an inject on one of them (you can afford to), you can transfuse a creep or a queen. This can hold a 6 minute push, and if you see it coming you can pump lings to support it. Beyond this, especially if no early pressure, then you are typically 200 supply maxed when everyone else is struggling at less than 120, if you add another 3 hatches at around 7 to 8 minutes, and take a 3rd, then you can inject on 2 hatches per queen, waste 100 units at a time and rebuild them almost instantly. In multiplayer games or FFA's it can lead into a totally dominant mid game, and best of all, this is a REALLY fun build to play around with in multi's. you dont have enough minerals to use all the larvae you get from this build. im absolutely sure that this is not optimal, as you will not be able to either saturate a third base, or use the larvae of your third hatchery that early on. | ||
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
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jacobman
217 Posts
On December 16 2010 20:30 DarKFoRcE wrote: you dont have enough minerals to use all the larvae you get from this build. im absolutely sure that this is not optimal, as you will not be able to either saturate a third base, or use the larvae of your third hatchery that early on. You're absolutely right about the larvae. I tested a few 3 hatch builds when I was trying to find good builds on my other thread. Some of the builds didn't even have enough money for their larvae for like close to five minutes. The others did, but they didn't have much extra money. If you were to put workers on to gas or try and tech at all, you would never be able to use all the larvae. That being said, using your minerals to throw up a third hatch, maybe around 3-4 minutes in, is not a horrible idea if you're planning on going heavy ling play. Of course, if you can expand, that's better. Although 3-4 minutes seems slightly early for a second expand. | ||
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zhouzhou
Canada138 Posts
10 overlord @75 minerals, extractor trick 15 hatch 15 pool I believe this gets you the most drones the fastest without wasting larva spawn time. | ||
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nastyyy
United States262 Posts
On December 16 2010 21:28 ZerG~LegenD wrote: TLO has played 3 Hatch before Pool a few times on Metalopolis. Right now I only remember the details of his game against Dimaga, there he delayed his first Queen till around 8 minutes. However, by making a wall with his Hatches and Roach Warren he was able to make a very Larva efficient Roach defence and out-Drone Dimagas 2 Hatches and 2 Queens. Still, Dimaga could get away without any Roaches and was thus able to get a pretty significant upgrade advantage. All in all I think Dimaga got a slight advantage early on. The 3 Hatch build ain't all shit thought. When was this? I wanna see. link please. | ||
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Blunttrauma
United States3 Posts
and forgive me for this but I dont see an advantage at not spending ever larva as long as you dont keep injecting on the hatch if you cant keep it under 3 atleast. the extra larva from this build has saved my life on many occasions. If anything is it worth in in ZvZ? cause absolutely NOBODY does it so i outporuce them nearly the entire game | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On December 30 2010 16:52 Blunttrauma wrote: Has anyone done the advantage of an inbase at 16? i feel like I come up short in the very first but it sets me up beatifully for the mid game. if theres some sort of rush or early all in i have a much smaller area to defend while having extra larva and i can saturate my nat almost instantly as it goes up. and forgive me for this but I dont see an advantage at not spending ever larva as long as you dont keep injecting on the hatch if you cant keep it under 3 atleast. the extra larva from this build has saved my life on many occasions. If anything is it worth in in ZvZ? cause absolutely NOBODY does it so i outporuce them nearly the entire game I do this ZvZ. Mass Speedling :D. Against other races you're better off to put scnd hatch at nat | ||
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blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
The 18 hatch is still a great build, and diversified the zerg openings even more, it being very complex to begin with. I'd like to see more pros use it. I think we concluded the 11pool as a strange once, since it's very economic yet very safe. You do not need to make 15 hatch 14pool to get a good advantage. | ||
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Aerodynamic27
Canada115 Posts
I find the 10 overlord, extractor trick to be more efficient in terms of timing as you can get 1 more drone earlier and it doesn't slow down any builds Can anyone confirm or try it? I'm not sure which to use. | ||
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blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
On May 15 2011 01:48 Aerodynamic27 wrote: Are there any differences between the 9 overlord and 10 overlord, extractor trick? I find the 10 overlord, extractor trick to be more efficient in terms of timing as you can get 1 more drone earlier and it doesn't slow down any builds Can anyone confirm or try it? I'm not sure which to use. It's been proven many times that 9lord is the best choice, except when you do strange builds like 11pool 18 hatch, because of the timings with the queen etc | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas 16, or 17 overlord (I normally see 17) double queen when pool finishes take drones off gas at 100 get zergling speed ONLY IF he feels he might need it depending on what his first 2-4 zerglings see drone, drone, drone Has anyone tested the IdrA build? I would assume it is either the most economic safe build, or maybe he does it because 1 the timings work out great, and 2 it is pretty safe while still very greedy. Please someone test it! | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
On May 16 2011 15:01 Beef Noodles wrote: Can anyone explain to me why IdrA's ZvT almost ALWAYS goes: 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas 16, or 17 overlord (I normally see 17) double queen when pool finishes take drones off gas at 100 get zergling speed ONLY IF he feels he might need it depending on what his first 2-4 zerglings see drone, drone, drone Has anyone tested the IdrA build? I would assume it is either the most economic safe build, or maybe he does it because 1 the timings work out great, and 2 it is pretty safe while still very greedy. Please someone test it! The three things a basic zerg build cares about are A.) Creep B.) Larva C.) Metabolic Boost The importance of creep is actually the option of Spine Crawlers to have a strong defense. The importance of Metabolic Boost is really about map control and is usually define by getting an early gas. Larva is actually inherently linked to the queen and heavy production. The more larva you have early on the more drones/army you can make early on. How does this translate into the game? A.) Early Hatch (For creep) B.) Early Pool (For Queen) C.) Early Gas (For Speed) An early hatch is easier to defend against timing pushes because you get to plop down 1-2 spine crawlers. However, an early hatch is more susceptible to rushes (such as cannon/bunker) because the delayed Zerglings. In those moments what's needed is an early gas build to get speed lings early to gain map control. These early lings prevent early attacks and the speed prevents the opponent from pushing out early. Getting an early pool gives you a fast queen which allows you to get a massive economic boost. This translates into Hatch first, pool first and gas first builds. Idra going Hatch=>Pool=>Gas tells me that he wants early creep for the option to build a spine (which is very larva efficient compared to Zerglings), he then grabs a pool before gas in order to get a faster queen which tells me he wants to start droning hard asap. But that's just me theorycrafting. | ||
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rodounet
France2 Posts
As seen in MrBitter's 12 weeks with the pros: http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4801193/ (Replay Pack here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=197338 ) | ||
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ETisME
12476 Posts
On May 16 2011 15:01 Beef Noodles wrote: Can anyone explain to me why IdrA's ZvT almost ALWAYS goes: 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas 16, or 17 overlord (I normally see 17) double queen when pool finishes take drones off gas at 100 get zergling speed ONLY IF he feels he might need it depending on what his first 2-4 zerglings see drone, drone, drone Has anyone tested the IdrA build? I would assume it is either the most economic safe build, or maybe he does it because 1 the timings work out great, and 2 it is pretty safe while still very greedy. Please someone test it! basically this build is safe from most early aggressive because you can now build the spine at the natural. delayed ling speed is because although it is super useful, it is only useful when it is needed, delaying it gives you more minerals. Many people tend to rush the ling speed and with good micro, slow lings are just as effective because the extra minerals can get more drones->lings/spine if necessary Again, taking drone off gas can give you more minerals income. He is delaying tech for a stronger economy. double queen is always useful, for Idra, he tends to use them to inject larva earlier on, he doesn't spread creep as much as dimaga. the double queen are good for blocking ramp as well. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On May 16 2011 16:59 lorkac wrote: The three things a basic zerg build cares about are A.) Creep B.) Larva C.) Metabolic Boost The importance of creep is actually the option of Spine Crawlers to have a strong defense. The importance of Metabolic Boost is really about map control and is usually define by getting an early gas. Larva is actually inherently linked to the queen and heavy production. The more larva you have early on the more drones/army you can make early on. How does this translate into the game? A.) Early Hatch (For creep) B.) Early Pool (For Queen) C.) Early Gas (For Speed) An early hatch is easier to defend against timing pushes because you get to plop down 1-2 spine crawlers. However, an early hatch is more susceptible to rushes (such as cannon/bunker) because the delayed Zerglings. In those moments what's needed is an early gas build to get speed lings early to gain map control. These early lings prevent early attacks and the speed prevents the opponent from pushing out early. Getting an early pool gives you a fast queen which allows you to get a massive economic boost. This translates into Hatch first, pool first and gas first builds. Idra going Hatch=>Pool=>Gas tells me that he wants early creep for the option to build a spine (which is very larva efficient compared to Zerglings), he then grabs a pool before gas in order to get a faster queen which tells me he wants to start droning hard asap. But that's just me theorycrafting. You could also put it this way, a faster hatch gives you more larva, thus the delayed pool and queen won't hamper production, but 300 minerals on a hatchery is an investment for the future translating in less drones at the beginning, and you have to delay your gas to catch up on drone production. | ||
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imbecile
563 Posts
On May 16 2011 18:01 NeonFox wrote: You could also put it this way, a faster hatch gives you more larva, thus the delayed pool and queen won't hamper production, but 300 minerals on a hatchery is an investment for the future translating in less drones at the beginning, and you have to delay your gas to catch up on drone production. Actually the minerals spent on the hatch don't eat into your drone count. It is still the larva that limit your drone production ... I spend more time waiting on larva than on minerals. When I go 9 overlord 14 hatch 16pool the only drones beyond 10 that are waiting on minerals are the 14 and 15 after the hatch went down. Both those larva lie idle for about 5s. After that you never will have to wait for minerals but always on larva until the spawn larva kicks in. You can easy afford double queening and putting down spines for defense on top of that ... you still will be waiting for larva, not for minerals. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Atleast thats why i try to get an hatch up early, because the defense spot ist just so good and you need the creep spread so bunkers can't be build near. If you want eco you go pool first of course for the queen, but in the end if you put drones on the close minerals at the natural you will end up almost even. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On May 16 2011 22:37 FeyFey wrote: because a queen is a hatch itself you don't really have the need to build an early hatch. But since creep is like a wallin for the zerg you want it at the ramp, and if you even get a free expansions as well its just purrfect, its also pretty nice to have a hatch below the ramp, so you have production on both sides. You also get access to more close mineral patches and you can pull drones faster to your ramp. It has nothing to do with economy that you get the hatch first, it is about the defense it provides and since its not that risky to put it below the ramp, if there would be maps, with a far of natural in tournaments, like delta for example, you would probably see some hatches above the cliff or near the ramp and not at the natural, because it wouldn't provide any defense. Atleast thats why i try to get an hatch up early, because the defense spot ist just so good and you need the creep spread so bunkers can't be build near. If you want eco you go pool first of course for the queen, but in the end if you put drones on the close minerals at the natural you will end up almost even. That's plain wrong. Hatch first is more economic than any pool first build (see OP ;-) ). a 14/15 hatch generates additional larvae 'round 3'40. There is no way a pool first+queen+inject is finished that early. Hatch first essentielly (besides some other advantages) is the fastest way to get additional larvae. 14h15p or 15h16p let finish hatch and pool simultanously, which makes sense, as ling production from one hatch hits your eco hard (except later in the game when the first inject is done). So there is no use having a pool if you do not have a hatch to support production except for some all in builds | ||
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