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Active: 990 users

Putting an end to the Zerg Opening Economy debate.

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-16 18:33:52
November 28 2010 10:03 GMT
#1
 
EDIT: This thread is a little outdated now. For a thread with better results, data, and graphs, try this link:
A Second Look at Zerg Openings




I have seen many threads on TL debating whether hatch first, 9 pool, 10 pool, 16 pool, etc. is the most economical. These threads have rarely reached a consensus or conclusion. Therefore:

The purpose of this thread is to scientifically conclude as best as possible which opening build order is the most economical for Zerg, and also to provide data to compare the relative strengths of one build to another.

The scientific method:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest


Please post your suggestion for the most economical zerg build order, being as thorough, detailed, and specific as possible (ie. maynarding, overlord timing, queen locations, etc.) to avoid confusion or disagreement regarding results. Any dispute regarding published results must supply a replay to counter. Each recommended build will be tested in a custom game, (not a tester/optimizer/etc.) by a diamond zerg player with solid APM playing at slow game speed. Every game will be run on the same location on the same map. The time will be stopped at intervals from 4:30 to 7:00 for data to be assessed. Posted results are taken from 6:00. ALL data will be assessed in making a determination, including:

Total minerals mined (Minerals spent + minerals unspent - necessary corrections for extractor trick)
Drone count
Overlord count
Mineral count
Units in production
Unspent larva
If relevant, queen energy.

The most weighted data will be total minerals mined and drone count. Units in production will be prorated based upon their level of completion. The percentage of minerals mined from one base compared to another will not be factored into the data, nor will minerals in transit.

What this thread is NOT for: Theorycrafting, claims without specific builds or replays, results from "optimizers" or testers, any strategy discussion including a build's safety, creep spread, hatch blocking, etc... We are only trying to deduce how to maximize economy to build a foundation for further discussion.

This area of the original post will be reserved for the current leading economy build order along with a replay for analysis:

Current Leader(s):
+ Show Spoiler +


See graph for results over time.

1st Place:
Submitted by Fenam, modified by jdseemoreglass
9 Overlord
14 Hatch
15 Pool

17 Overlord
17 Rally main to expo
19 Queen
21 Queen
26 Overlord
30 Overlord
30 Overlord
42 Rally main to main
43 Overlord
54 Overlord

[image loading]


2nd Place:
Submitted by Lomilar, modified by jdseemoreglass
10 Extractor trick
11 Overlord
11 Pool (finishes @ 2:38)
16 Queen
18 Hatch (finishes @ 4:44)
17 Overlord
18 Overlord
21 Queen
28 Overlord
28 Maynard 7 drones
36 Overlord

[image loading]

Sample diamond replays of this build in action:
+ Show Spoiler +

I played five games today on diamond ladder (2200+) using the 11pool and won 4/5 convincingly.

The first game illustrates how flexible this build is in reverting to an all-in attack. I scout my opponent opening hatch first, so that is exactly what I go for. Going hatch first or 14 pool would prevent this sort of pressure, and would potentially negate what is for me an easy victory.
[image loading]

Game two illustrates how well this build can hold up against a 4gate. This felt like the easiest 4gate I have ever held off because I had many units out quickly. At first I assumed my opponent was making a mistake, or was possibly going 3gate-expand, but the replay shows he did fairly well in keeping his resources low and drone count high.

After holding off two attacks I prepare for a mid-game timing attack before his late expansion can reap dividends.
[image loading]

In this game my opponent opened with a 7 roach rush into expansion. I thought at first the 18 hatch would be vulnerable to such a rush, but I held it off fairly well with only minor damage taken. If you look at the harvester count after the attack, you will see we are even despite my having lost several drones. If I had cut a couple drones I think I could have held off the even attack better.
From there it is a +1,+1 roach timing push ftw.
[image loading]

This is the game I lost. I did not anticipate how quickly the attack was coming. If I had just a few more seconds to complete the third spine crawler and roaches, I think this could have gone differently. Protoss does a good job of showing how to exploit a window of opportunity when at close positions.
[image loading]

In this final replay, I faced something that has become quite common since Foxer GSL... a 2rax marine-scv rush. Even with an 18 Hatch down, I survive. I have to pull drones to defend, but the lings get out just in time to clean up, and I counter attack. Here I made the unfortunate mistake of thinking his barracks had a clean wall-off, when it is clear to me now they didn't. I retreated from 1 marine when I could have won outright.

From here Terran expands and walls in his natural fairly well. I decide he has over-extended himself too much, and decide to punish with a baneling bust. Stream after stream of zerglings rush to the front, and he does well barely surviving again and again. Eventually, I kill off enough SCV's to justify the attack just as he bunkers himself in.

From there we switch to a macro game. His mid-game push is just not enough to hold off the swarm. Overall a pretty exciting match.
[image loading]


Link to new thread discussing this build as the potential new standard:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173430



Discarded builds: (ordered by resources mined)
+ Show Spoiler +


Submitted by Douillos
9 Overlord
16 Hatch
15 Pool

15 Overlord
18 Queen
20 Queen

Results:
Drones: 40 + 25/17 = 41.47
Overlords: 6
Resources Mined: 4100 + 570 = 4670


Submitted by Phrencys
9 Overlord
14 Pool
16 Hatch

15 Queen
17 Overlord
20 Overlord
20 Queen
32 Overlord
40 Overlord

Results:
Drones: 40 + 31/17 = 41.82
Overlords: 6
Resources Mined: 4200 + 415 = 4615


Submitted by Nafaltar
9 Overlord
15 Pool
16 Hatch

16 Queen
18 Overlord
21 Queen

Results:
Drones: 40 + 10/17 = 40.58
Overlords: 6 + 14/25 = 6.56
Resources Mined: 4000 + 600 = 4600
Queen energy: 18 + 21 = 39


Submitted by McMasters
13 Pool (finishes @ 2:52)
16 Hatch (finishes @ 4:26)


Results:
Drones: 40 + 21/17 = 41.23
Overlords: 6
Minerals Mined: 4000 + 564 = 4564
Queen Energy: 14 + 18


Submitted by Saechiis
(Note: I will have to retest this build getting an earlier overlord to prevent the 6.5 overlord differential, but in the mean-time it loses on Resources Mined. Providing more detailed build orders will help prevent these problems.)
9 overlord
16 pool (finishes @ 3:12)
17 hatch (finishes @ 4:32)


Results:
Drones: 40.5
Overlords: 6.5
Resources Mined: 3800 + 715 = 4515
Queen energy: 12 + 9 = 21


Submitted by niloh

10 Double extractor trick
12 Hatch
11 Overlord
14 Pool

Results:
Drones: 39 + 3/17
Overlords: 6
Resources Mined: 3900 + 540 = 4440


Submitted by mindwarp
14 Pool (finishes @ 3:00)
15 Over
16 Queen
22 Hatch (finishes @ 5:30)

Results:
Drones: 34 + 8/17 = 34.47
Overlords: 6
Minerals Mined: 3600 + 715 = 4315
Queen energy: 19 + 50


Submitted by Shikyo
10 pool (finishes @ 2:16)
Double extractor trick
12 overlord
12 queen
18 overlord
18 hatch (finishes @ 4:57)
24 overlord
24 queen

Results:
Drones: 37.75
Overlords: 6
Resources Mined: 3750 + 543 = 4293
Queen energy: 20 + 35 = 55



If anyone would like to submit replays of their own to speed the process, then complete them on the southern position on the map Xel' Naga Caverns. To provide uniformity of results, rally your hatchery to the center mineral and do not manually reposition drones on closer patches.

EDIT: State of the Thread Report, and thoughts on the criteria of larvae vs minerals in assessing economy.
+ Show Spoiler +

There has been some debate regarding the criteria of larvae vs. minerals to determine the overall "economy" of a build. I thought perhaps it could be resolved by placing a constant conversion rate for one in relation to another. However, after considering my studies of economics, and the law of diminishing marginal utility, I recognize that the subjective value of a good relative to another is dependent upon the constraints the user is presently facing. To illustrate my point, consider the following thought-experiment constraints:

Suppose you have 1 larva and 50 minerals. Which would you prefer more of? Certainly you would prefer more minerals, as that would increase the utility or benefit derived from a single larva. Adding additional larvae would be worth nothing, since you do not have the resources to make use of them.
Now suppose you have 1 larva and 500 minerals. In this case, you would clearly prefer more larvae, since additional minerals would not be of much use given the larva constraint.

Therefore, the more valuable resource depends upon what is currently the greater constraint the player faces. So which is the greater constraint?
In an actual game, this answer would of course depend upon what the player was attempting to accomplish at that time: expanding, saturating, teching, attacking, defending... Up until now we have assumed our player's goal was simply to maximize long-run economy. My first instinct is to say that larvae are the current greater constraint, for we are beginning to stockpile resources faster than we can spend them on larvae. However, this problem could be assuaged by building additional hatcheries and queens, which could perhaps place the constraint on minerals.

The true constraint we have here is neither larvae nor minerals, it is mineral patches. If we had an infinite pool of mineral patches, clearly the 11 pool build would be the most efficient and economical. If we wanted a faster third or fourth hatchery, then we would prefer the 15 hatch build. I know from my own experience that it is very rare to want to take a third hatchery before the 6 minute mark in an actual game.

This is a difficult, if not impossible, question to answer. For now I think we have two very effective builds that serve to satisfy each constraint while still being generally efficient in the other. An earlier queen provides more long-term production capacity than a hatchery, and a hatchery provides greater resource gathering potential than a queen. Let us simply continue gathering data for now. That data, and not the theorycrafting, is after all the true value of this thread.

I am not content with the current pool of builds. We can't claim either of these builds are the leaders until we can test a greater variety of submissions. Go outside the box, if even to provide good evidence of what DOESN'T work, and why. I am still recieving requests to test more refined versions of previous builds. And we still haven't concluded the effects of delaying an exact build by supply timing.

For now I will be expanding the data sample timing to see if perhaps I underestimated the time required to overcome the initial investment of a second hatchery. If the results are significant, we can consider placing the data into a graph of some kind.

-jdseemoreglass


EDIT: After doing repeated tests and analyzing many replays, I am starting to think the X Hatch, X+1 Pool will naturally have a stronger foundation, due to the pool and queen being timed equally to completion. Also, I think an earlier hatch than 16 will allow us to optimally begin maynarding drones without experiencing any diminishing mining returns while on one base.

I will try to perfect the 14 Hatch 15 Pool build order and post my results soon. If my theory is correct, this will likely replace the 16 Hatch 15 Pool build as the leader in resources mined.

EDIT: Testing has been done on the leading builds at various time intervals. The douillos' build has been overcome by a refined 14 Hatch, 15 Pool build. Note there is some variation from the published results due to the additional overlords, and also some optimization in maynarding techniques, which actually smoothed the differences between builds significantly.

[image loading]
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-28 10:11:03
November 28 2010 10:07 GMT
#2
EDIT: Meh not now

My BO is 10pool 10double ex 12ov 12queen -> 18ov 18hatch 24ov 24queen -> ov/drone
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
mikell
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia352 Posts
November 28 2010 10:13 GMT
#3
.... obviously the best opening economy is 15/16/17/18 hatch. 14/15/16/17 pool.
drone hard
blackodd
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden451 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-28 10:28:52
November 28 2010 10:27 GMT
#4
On November 28 2010 19:13 mikell wrote:
.... obviously the best opening economy is 15/16/17/18 hatch. 14/15/16/17 pool.


In a scientific environment comments such as these are meaningless, for every claim must be supported with theory, model or a set limitation on reality.

I've seen claims that 15 hatch 14 pool is worse than 14 pool 15 hatch. I will investigate.
For I am the Queen of Blades. And none shall ever dispute my rule, again...
the p00n
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands615 Posts
November 28 2010 10:28 GMT
#5
On November 28 2010 19:27 ayadew wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2010 19:13 mikell wrote:
.... obviously the best opening economy is 15/16/17/18 hatch. 14/15/16/17 pool.


In a scientific environment


dis is starcraft 2, bro
mansnicks
Profile Joined January 2010
Latvia120 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-28 10:39:56
November 28 2010 10:29 GMT
#6
If I give you a build order - then i suspect that it must have such things as scouting drone, 2-4 zerglings, 2-3 spine crawlers, right? Coz it would be stupid if this thread would end with:

+ Show Spoiler +
"and the winner is... this build order! you will have 2x more drones after the 10th minutes mark as any other... don't worry that you probably allready lost the game... at least you have most drones "


And i have another question - why the 6minutes mark? o_O
----
ohh and btw. i have a feeling that 12/10 pool is more economical than 15 hatch. why? because you will get your queen faster => more larva => at the 6th minutes mark more drones. (don't ask me at what food to make expand )



Edit: So say this newbie - what must be in a "The most economical BO" suggestion?
Just a precise build order? Thats all from our side?
Super passive with no scouting is a recipe for disaster.
blackodd
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden451 Posts
November 28 2010 10:29 GMT
#7
On November 28 2010 19:28 the p00n wrote:
dis is starcraft 2, bro


Not anymore ! :D
For I am the Queen of Blades. And none shall ever dispute my rule, again...
faylayen
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands62 Posts
November 28 2010 10:33 GMT
#8
Yay, a nice thread with good intentions already being smudged with shit comments...

If you do not like the scientific/serious attempt at solving this 'problem'. please just do not comment.

On a more on topic note. I'm looking forward to see the results and maybe contribute when I have a little more spare time on my hands.

Shrewmy
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia199 Posts
November 28 2010 10:36 GMT
#9
On November 28 2010 19:28 the p00n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2010 19:27 ayadew wrote:
On November 28 2010 19:13 mikell wrote:
.... obviously the best opening economy is 15/16/17/18 hatch. 14/15/16/17 pool.


In a scientific environment


dis is starcraft 2, bro

That's why science is awesome, you can do it even in video games.
PrideNeverDie
Profile Joined November 2010
United States319 Posts
November 28 2010 10:40 GMT
#10
time: 4:57
minerals: 814
drones: 30

obviously not usable in a real game, but interesting implications about queens ... wonder if this can be an all-in zergling speed rush with the addition of 100 gas

+ Show Spoiler +

@0:00 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:6/10 BuildDrone
@0:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:17 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:17 M:54 G:0 L:3 S:7/10 BuildDrone
@0:27 M:51 G:0 L:2 S:8/10 BuildDrone
@0:32 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:34 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:38 M:55 G:0 L:2 S/10 BuildDrone
@0:44 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:47 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:55 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:55 M:103 G:0 L:2 S:10/10 BuildOverlord
@1:02 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:06 M:77 G:0 L:2 S:10/10 ExtractorTrick
@1:06 M:52 G:0 L:2 S/10 BuildDrone
@1:08 Spawned: Extractor Trick Finished, Drone Restored
@1:17 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:20 Spawned: Overlord+1
@1:20 M:116 G:0 L:2 S:11/18 BuildDrone
@1:20 M:66 G:0 L:1 S:12/18 BuildDrone
@1:23 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:32 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:37 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:37 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:47 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:55 M:303 G:0 L:2 S:13/18 BuildHatchery
@2:01 M:53 G:0 L:2 S:12/18 BuildDrone
@2:02 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:07 M:53 G:0 L:2 S:13/18 BuildDrone
@2:13 M:53 G:0 L:1 S:14/18 BuildDrone
@2:17 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:18 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:24 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:30 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:32 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:45 M:309 G:0 L:2 S:15/18 BuildHatchery
@2:47 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:55 M:106 G:0 L:3 S:14/18 BuildOverlord
@3:00 M:54 G:0 L:2 S:14/18 BuildDrone
@3:05 M:53 G:0 L:1 S:15/18 BuildDrone
@3:10 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:10 M:51 G:0 L:1 S:16/18 BuildDrone
@3:17 Spawned: Drone+1
@3:20 Spawned: Overlord+1
@3:22 Spawned: Drone+1
@3:25 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:25 M:152 G:0 L:1 S:17/26 BuildDrone
@3:27 Spawned: Drone+1
@3:35 Spawned: Hatchery+1
@3:40 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:40 M:271 G:0 L:2 S:18/28 BuildDrone
@3:40 M:221 G:0 L:1 S:19/28 BuildDrone
@3:42 Spawned: Drone+1
@3:55 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:55 M:351 G:0 L:2 S:20/28 BuildDrone
@3:55 M:301 G:0 L:1 S:21/28 BuildDrone
@3:57 Spawned: Drone+1
@3:57 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:10 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:10 M:451 G:0 L:2 S:22/28 BuildDrone
@4:10 M:401 G:0 L:1 S:23/28 BuildDrone
@4:12 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:12 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:25 Spawned: Hatchery+1
@4:25 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:25 M:574 G:0 L:3 S:24/30 BuildDrone
@4:25 M:524 G:0 L:2 S:25/30 BuildDrone
@4:25 M:474 G:0 L:1 S:26/30 BuildDrone
@4:27 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:27 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:40 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:40 M:661 G:0 L:3 S:27/30 BuildDrone
@4:40 M:611 G:0 L:2 S:28/30 BuildDrone
@4:40 M:561 G:0 L:1 S:29/30 BuildDrone
@4:42 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:42 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:42 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:55 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:57 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:57 Spawned: Drone+1
@4:57 Spawned: Drone+1
If you want it bad enough you will find a way; If you don't, you will find an excuse
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6159 Posts
November 28 2010 10:40 GMT
#11
On November 28 2010 19:13 mikell wrote:
.... obviously the best opening economy is 15/16/17/18 hatch. 14/15/16/17 pool.

Actually, I'm going to dispute this "obviously". There are some ppl claiming that pool first = more economy than hatch first.
blackodd
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden451 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-28 10:48:51
November 28 2010 10:47 GMT
#12
@OP you forgot to specify the map we should use. Waiting for that
I suggest Xel'Naga or Lost Temple
For I am the Queen of Blades. And none shall ever dispute my rule, again...
Maicro
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia7 Posts
November 28 2010 10:53 GMT
#13
Well technically one build cannot work best for all maps such as steppes of war for examples
HonIE
Profile Joined November 2010
Ireland2 Posts
November 28 2010 11:06 GMT
#14
Is this test based on an assumption that no offensive units are required (no opponent contact either way) for the first 6 minutes?
*Knock knock* "Who's there?" -THOR IS HERE
mansnicks
Profile Joined January 2010
Latvia120 Posts
November 28 2010 11:18 GMT
#15
I suppose that we just give the build orders and OP will test them....
Super passive with no scouting is a recipe for disaster.
blitzkrieger
Profile Joined September 2010
United States512 Posts
November 28 2010 11:27 GMT
#16
This is just a waste of time. Finding out the best economy does NOTHING except waste time especially since there are other limiters that will never allow you to use most of the builds that are better economy. For instance 14pool is generally standard to be safe because you are extremely likely to die if you are more greedy. You cant hardly go 15hatch now because of the counters.

For instance Fruitdealer goes (at least he did) 12 overlord with double extractor instead of 9 ovy because it is more flexible even though it is slightly less economical.
Dacendoran
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States825 Posts
November 28 2010 11:49 GMT
#17
People here should stop derailing this thread and posting about how it is completely pointless etc. And just not post if its so useless why can you be arsed to open the thread just to complain.

On topic:I Read somewhere that 15 pool 17 hatch was the most economic build order, though Im not sure of the subelties of the extractor trick or what all goes into that.
Gnax
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden490 Posts
November 28 2010 11:56 GMT
#18
On November 28 2010 20:27 blitzkrieger wrote:
This is just a waste of time. Finding out the best economy does NOTHING except waste time especially since there are other limiters that will never allow you to use most of the builds that are better economy. For instance 14pool is generally standard to be safe because you are extremely likely to die if you are more greedy. You cant hardly go 15hatch now because of the counters.

For instance Fruitdealer goes (at least he did) 12 overlord with double extractor instead of 9 ovy because it is more flexible even though it is slightly less economical.


This thread is obviously not about the safest or most solid build. l2read.

It's good to know which build is most echonomical so you can try to get as close to that as possible without dying. That should be the goal for anyone who wants to play a macro game.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
November 28 2010 13:44 GMT
#19
Ugh this has been debated a 100 times already.
The fact is that pool before hatch or hatch before pool are nearly identical economy wise. Pool first gives slightly more drones at first but also has the 2nd queen later which compensates for that again. Especially if the neccesity to build units are taken into account the builds are extremely close.
ALso this approach is completely useless as it doesnt even take gas usage into account for example.


There are only 2 differences between hatch first and pool first:
- hatch first has a much higher chance of getting the hatch down unblocked
- pool first has more variety, ie you have more time to adopt into 1 base play, you can be aggresive earlier and it's more difficult for your opponent to read what you are doing.

In the end I think it just boils down to 14 pool being more popular on 2 player maps (as the hatch gets blocked anyway there) and 14 hatch being more popular on 4 player maps (as many zerg's prefer getting the hatch down for sure instead of the options of a pool first).
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
November 28 2010 14:11 GMT
#20


1,7k diamond Z, 130 apm average

Hi,

first, very good initiative, and I hope people continue discarding these posts because "dis is sc, bro", so we can continue having an edge.

for my part, id would go for:

9 ovie
16 hatch
15 pool
15 over
18 queen
18 lings
19 lings
20 second queen at second hatch
move 4 drones and double gas at main

I will come back this afternoon with info to confirm this.


PS: why slow speed???

Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
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