EPTPutting an end to the Zerg Opening Economy debate. - Page 2
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Ryukku
Singapore545 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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Niguana
United States36 Posts
13 hatch 15 extractor 16 pool | ||
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Slakter
Sweden1947 Posts
16 hatch 15 pool 17 gas 16 overlord 17 queen | ||
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Nah
Poland50 Posts
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McMasters
6 Posts
If you really wanted a Scientific Method, you need to place a limiter on your 'Zerg Economy' function, Otherwise, the best build is 6 hatch 6 hatch 6 hatch 6 hatch 6 hatch 6 hatch 200 pool. You need to say something like "Assuming no harassment by either part until X:XX, which requires Y units to push/hold, what is the best build order?" Zerg grows at X/sec speed on one hatch, no queen. A queen is -150 Minerals, + X^1.3. A Hatch is -300 Minerals, X(top)*2. So the longer you wait to Hatch / Pool, the faster you grow after that. The (max) function for two bases at 6 minutes - a common 'start point' - is 13 Pool 16 Hatch (search this board), but during the transitions when -150 / -300 are not yet allayed by the exponential growth you are vulnerable, and those two 'times' are when the Terran 2 rax and the 4 gate hit, within 30 seconds. So, they fail, by design. They are the perfect Rock, and T and P have made the perfect Paper. So, you need to say when Paper hits, so you can spend your Minerals on Scissors. Against Z, if you pool AFTER the other Z pools, but BEFORE (his first attack reaches you - spawning time for defense), you are ahead. too far after and you die, too far sooner and you win, within the tolerance but sooner and you are behind. Welcome to Starcraft. Don't get all uppity because people aren't answering your essay question with multiple choice. Here, you want to test? Ladder up and go 13 Pool 16 Hatch. Write down the awesome number of drones and minerals you have at the MOMENT an MM/Ling/Stalker ball rolls your nat and gg's you like a bronze. Do this 10 times. Your Scientific Result? Your Win Rate is 0-10. The rest doesn't matter. QED. | ||
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Viruuus
Germany451 Posts
One of my favorites was: Double extractor trick 12 pool 11 overlord drones as soon as overlord pops, queen as soon as pool pops 17Overlord expand at 19 (send the 18ths drone out to be there) | ||
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falstag
United States55 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + @0:00 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:6/10 BuildDrone @0:15 Spawned: Larva+1 @0:17 Spawned: Drone+1 @0:17 M:54 G:0 L:3 S:7/10 BuildDrone @0:27 M:51 G:0 L:2 S:8/10 BuildDrone @0:32 Spawned: Larva+1 @0:34 Spawned: Drone+1 @0:44 Spawned: Drone+1 @0:47 Spawned: Larva+1 @0:47 M:104 G:0 L:3 S  /10 BuildOverlord@0:55 M:53 G:0 L:2 S /10 BuildDrone@1:02 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:12 Spawned: Overlord+1 @1:12 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:12 M:106 G:0 L:2 S:10/18 BuildDrone @1:12 M:56 G:0 L:1 S:11/18 BuildDrone @1:17 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:19 M:53 G:0 L:1 S:12/18 BuildDrone @1:29 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:29 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:32 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:32 M 5 G:0 L:1 S:13/18 BuildDrone@1:36 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:47 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:47 M:177 G:0 L:1 S:14/18 BuildDrone @1:49 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:02 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:02 M:270 G:0 L:1 S:15/18 BuildDrone @2:04 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:10 M:300 G:0 L:0 S:16/18 BuildHatchery @2:17 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:17 M:68 G:0 L:1 S:15/18 BuildDrone @2:19 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:32 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:32 M:171 G:0 L:1 S:16/18 BuildOverlord @2:34 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:47 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:47 M:234 G:0 L:1 S:16/18 BuildDrone @2:57 Spawned: Overlord+1 @3:02 Spawned: Larva+1 @3:02 M:349 G:0 L:1 S:17/26 BuildDrone @3:03 M:310 G:0 L:0 S:18/26 BuildHatchery @3:04 Spawned: Drone+1 @3:17 Spawned: Larva+1 @3:17 M:163 G:0 L:1 S:17/26 BuildDrone @3:19 Spawned: Drone+1 @3:25 M:202 G:0 L:0 S:18/26 BuildSpawningPool @3:32 Spawned: Larva+1 @3:32 M:79 G:0 L:1 S:17/26 BuildDrone @3:34 Spawned: Drone+1 @3:47 Spawned: Larva+1 @3:47 M:196 G:0 L:1 S:18/26 BuildDrone @3:49 Spawned: Drone+1 @3:50 Spawned: Hatchery+1 @4:02 Spawned: Larva+1 @4:02 M:326 G:0 L:2 S:19/28 BuildDrone @4:02 M:276 G:0 L:1 S:20/28 BuildDrone @4:04 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:17 Spawned: Larva+1 @4:17 M:417 G:0 L:2 S:21/28 BuildOverlord @4:17 M:317 G:0 L:1 S:21/28 BuildDrone @4:19 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:19 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:30 Spawned: Spawning Pool+1 @4:32 Spawned: Larva+1 @4:32 M:479 G:0 L:2 S:22/28 BuildDrone @4:32 M:429 G:0 L:1 S:23/28 BuildDrone @4:32 M:379 G:0 L:0 S:24/28 BuildQueen @4:34 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:42 Spawned: Overlord+1 @4:43 Spawned: Hatchery+1 @4:47 Spawned: Larva+1 @4:47 M:453 G:0 L:3 S:26/38 BuildDrone @4:47 M:403 G:0 L:2 S:27/38 BuildQueen @4:47 M:253 G:0 L:2 S:29/38 BuildDrone @4:47 M:203 G:0 L:1 S:30/38 BuildDrone @4:49 Spawned: Drone+1 @4:49 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:02 Spawned: Larva+1 @5:02 M:389 G:0 L:3 S:31/38 BuildDrone @5:02 M:339 G:0 L:2 S:32/38 BuildDrone @5:02 M:289 G:0 L:1 S:33/38 BuildDrone @5:04 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:04 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:04 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:17 Spawned: Larva+1 @5:17 M:506 G:0 L:3 S:34/38 BuildDrone @5:17 M:456 G:0 L:2 S:35/38 BuildDrone @5:17 M:406 G:0 L:1 S:36/38 BuildDrone @5:19 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:19 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:19 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:22 Spawned: Queen+1 @5:32 Spawned: Larva+1 @5:32 M:657 G:0 L:3 S:37/38 BuildDrone @5:32 M:607 G:0 L:2 S:38/38 ExtractorTrick @5:32 M:582 G:0 L:2 S:37/38 BuildDrone @5:32 M:532 G:0 L:1 S:38/38 ExtractorTrick @5:32 M:507 G:0 L:1 S:37/38 BuildDrone @5:34 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:34 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:34 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:34 Spawned: Extractor Trick Finished, Drone Restored @5:34 Spawned: Extractor Trick Finished, Drone Restored @5:37 Spawned: Queen+1 @5:47 Spawned: Larva+1 @5:49 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:49 Spawned: Drone+1 @5:49 Spawned: Drone+1 -------Goal------- Drones: 40 Queens: 2 Bases: 2 At time: 6:00 Minerals: 1146 Gas: 0 Supply: 40/38 Larva: 3 Drones: 36 Overlords: 4 Queens: 2 Bases: 1 Spawning Pools: 1 Sun Nov 28 09:45:54 CST 2010: 2111.146 | ||
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Syro
Germany113 Posts
9 Ovi 16 Hatch 15 Pool 14 Gas | ||
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Bona Fide
United States70 Posts
9 Overlord 10 Drone 10 Extractor-trick (11/10 supply now) 14 Hatch 15 Pool 14 Gas I think the point of the 9OV+Extractor is just to keep larva count low, since you can get to 12 drones at the same time with or without Extractor trick, but with the trick you get #11 out faster. | ||
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VWXYZ
Denmark18 Posts
I can't help much though ): I'm only gold, can't post replays. | ||
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butter
United States785 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
I regard to many of the comments, I want to clarify that this is simply to PROVIDE EVIDENCE which general order timing will yield best economy in the long run. (For example, 14 hatch 15 pool, 16 pool 15 hatch, etc...) There are already claims on this thread that build X will simply be the best without any evidence to support it. Supporting the theory with data it is what we are trying to accomplish here. It may not result in the strategically strongest opening, but it will at least provide a framework for further discussion regarding what is ideal and how closely to reach that ideal without being killed in the process. Builds that end on 16 or so supply is not necessarily the precision I was looking for. I will still test them, but keep in mind that later overlord timing, maynarding, etc. are all very relevant to the results. Also, adding gas or an extractor that isn't canceled adds an additional and unnecessary factor to the equation. If anyone would like to submit replays of their own to speed the process, then complete them on the southern position on the map Xel' Naga Caverns. To provide uniformity of results, rally your hatchery to the center mineral and do not manually reposition drones on closer patches. I will begin testing later today. | ||
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mindwarp
United States30 Posts
14 gas @ 100 minerals 14 pool 15 ovie 16 queen 19 ling 20 ling 21 drone 22 hatch at nat Looking forward to the results | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
In any case, I would like to suggest another condition: only two Hatcheries. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
I'm a bit surprised at the 10 pool build, although it's 400 minerals behind you do have a lot more energy which you can use for faster creep spread if needed... it's like having an extra creep tumor vs 2 spine crawlers (defense wise). And the 10 pool gives them a good flexibility too, especially if the opponent 6 pools (10 pool gets lings out in time for 6 pool). Great thread so far, good job guys. QUESTION: I remember there was another thread testing out the best economical Zerg opening, but it didn't test so far as this. Basically it was testing just the beginning, pitting openings like 1 extractor trick vs 9 overlord, vs 10 overlord, etc. Does anyone know if they tested out 10 overlord, 10 extractor trick, and whether or not that is worse than 9 overlord? (in the long run, although information about how much or how long a benefit the 10 overlord 10 extractor trick lasts will be nice too). | ||
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Guerrilla705
United States16 Posts
I regard to many of the comments, I want to clarify that this is simply to PROVE which general order timing will yield best economy in the long run ok that is a VERY vague statement. Like others have said, the best economic build is to never pool, you can't say that we are doing this build independant of other pressure, but we still need a spawning pool. If you are going to put in a spawning pool then what the other player is doing must be factored in, because Zerg is a reactionary race. We don't get to just start every game however we please, we must respond to what the opponent is doing. Also, you discredit yourself as a scientist if you are saying this single experiment proves anything. Science never PROVES anything, only attempts to disprove. If you want to make a scientific argument you need to recognize your uncontrolled variables, the problems with this experiment, and suggest ways to improve the experiment. It needs to be repeatable for others and they need to be able to do it better | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
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IronInko
United States19 Posts
On November 29 2010 04:24 Guerrilla705 wrote: ok that is a VERY vague statement. Like others have said, the best economic build is to never pool, you can't say that we are doing this build independant of other pressure, but we still need a spawning pool. If you are going to put in a spawning pool then what the other player is doing must be factored in, because Zerg is a reactionary race. We don't get to just start every game however we please, we must respond to what the opponent is doing. Also, you discredit yourself as a scientist if you are saying this single experiment proves anything. Science never PROVES anything, only attempts to disprove. If you want to make a scientific argument you need to recognize your uncontrolled variables, the problems with this experiment, and suggest ways to improve the experiment. It needs to be repeatable for others and they need to be able to do it better I think your argument might be a bit flawed. You're saying that strictly hatcheries is the more economic opening, but you aren't backing it up at all. This post is to prove what the best opening is. The idea that never building a pool and expanding constantly is the best economic build is nothing more than an idea. The point of this experiment, as I read it, was to discover what the best possible economic opening was by testing them and getting conclusive results. You're argument is based around the idea that we don't need to test what the best economy build is, because constant expanding is obviously the best economy build. Considering how much you go on and on about how science works, you should recognize that the word "obviously" shouldn't be used and you should also recognize the importance of testing and repeatable results. To give a different counter argument with more bearing on the game than the theoretical possibilities of pure macro zerg, every good zerg opener will quickly get both a pool and a hatchery. If we come up with what the best ideal economy is within those restrictions, we can then plan actual strategies around them. I just assumed those restrictions were in place when I read the OP and, while you obviously won't be able to use the ideal economy build every game, having one that is similar to real builds will help give a reference point for what would be best, if not safest. Ugh, I don't know why, but I can't shake the feeling that both of those paragraphs and both of my points were worded grossly incoherently. Sorry if they were. | ||
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Jago
Finland390 Posts
On November 29 2010 04:24 Guerrilla705 wrote: ok that is a VERY vague statement. Like others have said, the best economic build is to never pool This is of course, not true. You need a pool to make queens to make larvae to make drones faster. | ||
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