EPTPutting an end to the Zerg Opening Economy debate. - Page 19
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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Flopplop
5 Posts
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nihoh
Australia978 Posts
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blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
On December 04 2010 20:34 nihoh wrote: Lol so at the ned of the day 14 hatch 15 pool is still the best build. Best? I'll 11 pool any day in zvz | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On December 04 2010 20:34 nihoh wrote: Lol so at the ned of the day 14 hatch 15 pool is still the best build. Personally, I think 14h/14p is slightly better. It pays a very small economy price to gain a larva advantage. | ||
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Blu3
United States126 Posts
So, if you think they are going to try something sneaky, sure, go for the 11 pool!! Common sense! If you scout them and they are walling off, then do your 14 hatch, 15 pool, nuff said! Anyways, good job overall! Blu3 | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
On December 04 2010 15:29 Cambam wrote: Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I don't know how to search an individual thread. (Please feel free to let me know how). What's the best response to getting your hatch blocked by a pylon or ebay in the 14 hatch 15 pool build? This just happened to me for the first time today and I did a 14 pool as soon as I saw the probe near my nat. I built 4 lings killed it and made a hatch ASAP (don't remember what food). My economy was horrible. So what's the best way to respond? Also, what if he's just blocking it with a probe but doesn't throw down a pylon? Either he runs it away or you kill it. Anyone? | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
Well you could try chasing the worker around with two workers, or just put down a pool and wait for lings... There is really nothing you can do to stop it. I would personally recommend not trying to go hatch first. Even if you get it down no problem, you are likely going to die soon anyways if your opponent knows what he is doing... Pool first is more solid. | ||
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roadrunner343
148 Posts
However, I do not agree with your comments about hatch first. I absolutely recommend it if you think you can pool it off. On larger maps, it's basically a freebie against Terran or Protoss if you are scouting properly. Obviously if you see a 2/3 Rax rush or a 2 Gate, you need to start building lings. Again, if you scout, are on a large map, and know your opponent is not going to cheese, you should be safe. 14pool/14hatch has been my go to build for Terran and Protoss matchups on most maps (Other than Steppes and Xel Naga or against Zerg) at 18-1900ish Diamond. | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
I'm pretty sure this thread is dead, in that the OP isn't being updated anymore. Most of the focus seems to be on 11 Pool 13 Pool build that you see, and a new post has been created for that. I'm not going to get involved here, but I'm certain the hatch first build listed here is not the most economic build there is, despite what the thread makes it seem like. Like I said, I think the poster stopped updating that long ago. I did provide some replays with a build or two that beat that in an earlier post, but I will be the first person to say that replays are fallible evidence. I've found that if you're one second slow or if you're inefficient in any manner you may lose anywhere from 30-150 minerals in your final outcome, so even though my replay I posted did better than the replay given in the thread for the 14/15, I'm not going to claim that that particular build is better. I've been starting to use build order testers instead. You may call that "theory-craft", but I think it's more reliable. The build I'm testing on the ladder right now to see if I can pull off holding it against early pressure is a 15 Pool 16 Hatch build, and it does perform better than the 14 Hatch build listed here. I have no clue if it's the best build there is but it has been the best I have found so far. Here's the build order if anyone wants to try it out themselves/decide for themselves. 9 Overlord 15 Spawning Pool 16 Hatchery 15 Overlord 16 Queen 21 Queen 23 Overlord 33 Overlord 33 Overlord NOTE: The double overlord at 33 is not a mistake. If done right two larvae injects will pop very soon after the first overlord in needed. Also this build order will get you to two fully saturated bases if you are lucky enough in a game to ever drone for that long uninterrupted. Obviously, when in a real game you will need more overlord cycles to reach this point since many more larvae will be put into some sort of army. If you want me to prove that the build is better than 14/15, I'm not interested. You'll have to test it on your own if you're interested. I did that for myself, and that's all I care about. I figured I would share the build for people who prefer the more economical openings to try if they want to, since there is already plenty of discussion about the early pool openings, aka the 11 Pool build. | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
On December 04 2010 20:17 Flopplop wrote: why would you guys want to compare any build with 16 hatch 15 pool, its practically suicidal. The most eco build we compare it to should be 14 hatch, no later. The hatch isn't as important as you would think. The pool is more important. Many pro players will throw up a pool first and then kind of wait it out until scouting information comes in, at which point the hatches many times will go down as late as 18. Obviously many players have a fixed build order, but I've seen the scouting method used a lot too, with what seems like very late hatches. Also the original idea of the post was to find the most economical build regardless of if it can work in game. From there you could figure out by trying it out what the most economical build was that you could actually pull off. | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
On December 04 2010 15:37 Douillos wrote: Really, the best opening IMO would be 16 pool 18 hatch. I's logical, knowing that 14pool 16 hatch is better than 11 overpoool. But I still believe that the best opening and my new standard is the 11 overpool. This actually isn't true because you get the minerals to be able to place the pool before 16, so you don't have to sacrifice anything to make it earlier. | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
On December 03 2010 16:35 roadrunner343 wrote: 250 minerals is important, yes. As you said though, I'm not exactly sure what the mining difference is, as there are a couple different reportings. Still, i would like to bet that if I did the lomilar build vs a 16 hatch first build, I could do enough damage to justify only 250 minerals of a difference (Maybe more, maybe less) I'm not going to argue with you over which is the best for certain, because I don't know. I too tend to 14 pool 14 hatch fairly often, I like the feel of it, and that is at 1900 Diamond play, so I'm not saying it can't be done. However, what I am saying, is that the 11 pool build can still be very economic AND fend off extremely early pressure, something I have problems with when I utilize the hatch first. I totally agree with you that the 11 pool can be economic. It does lag behind but it doesn't bury your economy in any respect. I think the 11 pool build is very good and does have flexibility. Personally I like to try and figure out how to fend the most economic build possible, so the 11 pool isn't my style, even though it's still a very good build. As far as economic judgment goes, despite the fact that I liked the original idea of this post, I'm now using build order testers. They don't have large fluctuations in results that making a replay does. When I get a result in a replay it could be 50 minerals slow, 100 minerals slow, or it could be perfect. I don't really know since very tiny differences in play seem to have sizable effects. | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
On December 04 2010 20:17 Flopplop wrote: why would you guys want to compare any build with 16 hatch 15 pool, its practically suicidal. The most eco build we compare it to should be 14 hatch, no later. The reason is because the pool is actually only about 3 seconds delayed compared to a 14 Hatch 14 Pool build. You don't really know that just looking at the supply, which is what I'm assuming you did. | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
Given, from a stance of hatch vs pool 1st and when, do we 9olord/extractor trick, etc., I doubt the addition of an extractor in there will make any of the rank orders of best builds shift, assuming the extractor is placed in each BO optimally. For argument's sake of "what is economic", perhaps out of simplicity's sake, one gas run can be considered equivalent to one mineral run? Idk, gas is a strange topic, perhaps it could be argued that a strong econ is roughly 2/3 minerals and 1/3 gas, but at what early/mid/late points does this ratio change, who knows... In any case, good thread, but an answer to when to gas and how hard is worth discussion. ~Duncan Idaho Edit add-in: So I started thinking about the min:gas ratio. Early on, minerals are more important, with maybe an initial 100-150 gas and then back to mining. However, I believe it would depend upon your unit composition plan, and for simplicity sake, I'll assume it's set in stone from the beginning, and I'll discuss a more fluid design after. Ground: 2/3 min 1/3 gas Banelings: 50(min)/25(gas) (25 min half ling, 25/25 bling morph) Roaches: 75/25 (given, 3/4m to 1/4g, so perhaps if a more roach heavy hedging towards a 1/4 gas composition might be optimal) Hydra: 100/50 Given, zerglings (25m), infestors (100/150), and ultralisks (300/200) break this mold even more, but in any case, I think the added gas cost of the infestors will be reduced by the lower gas cost of the lings and roaches, so I still feel 2/3m 1/3 gas is a nice econ composition to shoot for. If you're going ultras, perhaps getting a gas only expo will be sufficient (in addition to at least 2 fully saturated gas&min bases) Air: minerals1/2(+a small amount) and gas1/2(- a small amount) Good luck achieveing this with only 2 geysers and lots of mineral patches per base, but perhaps minerals are spent on the base enough to makeup for any disparity. Mutas: 100/100 Corrupters: 150/100 Broodlords: 300/250 So that's some things to chew on, not that we can't have a mix of Ground&Air, we most certainly can, but one could use this heuristic as a way to hedge their econ in the thick of things, more 2/3:1/3 if more ground-preultra, more 1/2:1/2 if more air oriented, and somewhere in between for mixtures. Also, for roach only (which I discourage any one unit only builds), perhaps a more 3/4 to 1/4 economy, and for mass lings, only the minimum gas necessary for upgrades. However, this brings us to the idea of fluidity. These min:gas ideas work optimally if you stick to the plan, however if say you're going all mutas and the terran has gone all anti-air, perhaps an ajustment is in order. I'd say, pick an initial plan, stick to it until you have to adjust, and then adjust per the above concepts. As for the current question, though, of when to gas, I think I may have stumbled upon the "general" answer, the question is, how much do you need, and how soon?  That changes everything, making a linear (or hell, maybe even quadratic or higher order) relationship between the extractor build order position and unit composition goals. Okay, so someone determine that equation!  Do it! Do it now!  | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 06 2010 01:16 DuncanIdaho wrote: + Show Spoiler + So, I'm not sure if this has been addressed (as there are 19 pages of comments), but I see nothing in the OP about it. My issue is about when these builds would suggest to gas. It seems the econ issue is a matter of minerals only, not gas... Given, from a stance of hatch vs pool 1st and when, do we 9olord/extractor trick, etc., I doubt the addition of an extractor in there will make any of the rank orders of best builds shift, assuming the extractor is placed in each BO optimally. For argument's sake of "what is economic", perhaps out of simplicity's sake, one gas run can be considered equivalent to one mineral run? Idk, gas is a strange topic, perhaps it could be argued that a strong econ is roughly 2/3 minerals and 1/3 gas, but at what early/mid/late points does this ratio change, who knows... In any case, good thread, but an answer to when to gas and how hard is worth discussion. ~Duncan Idaho Edit add-in: So I started thinking about the min:gas ratio. Early on, minerals are more important, with maybe an initial 100-150 gas and then back to mining. However, I believe it would depend upon your unit composition plan, and for simplicity sake, I'll assume it's set in stone from the beginning, and I'll discuss a more fluid design after. Ground: 2/3 min 1/3 gas Banelings: 50(min)/25(gas) (25 min half ling, 25/25 bling morph) Roaches: 75/25 (given, 3/4m to 1/4g, so perhaps if a more roach heavy hedging towards a 1/4 gas composition might be optimal) Hydra: 100/50 Given, zerglings (25m), infestors (100/150), and ultralisks (300/200) break this mold even more, but in any case, I think the added gas cost of the infestors will be reduced by the lower gas cost of the lings and roaches, so I still feel 2/3m 1/3 gas is a nice econ composition to shoot for. If you're going ultras, perhaps getting a gas only expo will be sufficient (in addition to at least 2 fully saturated gas&min bases) Air: minerals1/2(+a small amount) and gas1/2(- a small amount) Good luck achieveing this with only 2 geysers and lots of mineral patches per base, but perhaps minerals are spent on the base enough to makeup for any disparity. Mutas: 100/100 Corrupters: 150/100 Broodlords: 300/250 So that's some things to chew on, not that we can't have a mix of Ground&Air, we most certainly can, but one could use this heuristic as a way to hedge their econ in the thick of things, more 2/3:1/3 if more ground-preultra, more 1/2:1/2 if more air oriented, and somewhere in between for mixtures. Also, for roach only (which I discourage any one unit only builds), perhaps a more 3/4 to 1/4 economy, and for mass lings, only the minimum gas necessary for upgrades. However, this brings us to the idea of fluidity. These min:gas ideas work optimally if you stick to the plan, however if say you're going all mutas and the terran has gone all anti-air, perhaps an ajustment is in order. I'd say, pick an initial plan, stick to it until you have to adjust, and then adjust per the above concepts. As for the current question, though, of when to gas, I think I may have stumbled upon the "general" answer, the question is, how much do you need, and how soon? That changes everything, making a linear (or hell, maybe even quadratic or higher order) relationship between the extractor build order position and unit composition goals. Okay, so someone determine that equation! Do it! Do it now! This is why we can't include gas, because the relative value of gas to minerals is completely subjective, and there is no way you will get everyone to agree. | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
On December 06 2010 02:01 jdseemoreglass wrote: This is why we can't include gas, because the relative value of gas to minerals is completely subjective, and there is no way you will get everyone to agree. You're totally right. I also think it's worth nothing that we're not really looking at minerals mined. We're looking at worker minutes that each build produces. We're doing this in a round about way, minerals, but if we were you put a certain emphasis on gas the build with the more worker minutes is still going to have the best economy. This will be true for any distribution of gas and minerals, unless the build you want to do gets gas REALLY early. | ||
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SpaceYeti
United States723 Posts
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rockslave
Brazil318 Posts
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vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
On December 10 2010 00:54 rockslave wrote: Have you guys tried 15 hatch 17 pool? Yes it is very very risky but it can work when you scout stuff like 1 rax no gas. Unfortunately many times this means they hid a second rax. If I see 1 rax no gas I start looking for a 2nd rax (its usually close to their base, they just don't want to give away 2 rax). Also I make sure any refineries are fully completed before I make any assumptions. I see a lot of terrans hide their second rax and fake a gas to make it look like a standard 12 rax 13 gas. | ||
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