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Putting an end to the Zerg Opening Economy debate. - Page 19

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Endymion
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States3701 Posts
December 04 2010 07:17 GMT
#361
i still like 11 pool, i did the exact same thing as the OP today and I found that 14 hatch only popped out an extra ~2 drones by the 5minute mark, while it is significantly more risky and less adaptable than 11 pool.
Have you considered the MMO-Champion forum? You are just as irrational and delusional with the right portion of nostalgic populism. By the way: The old Brood War was absolutely unplayable
Flopplop
Profile Joined December 2010
5 Posts
December 04 2010 11:17 GMT
#362
why would you guys want to compare any build with 16 hatch 15 pool, its practically suicidal. The most eco build we compare it to should be 14 hatch, no later.
nihoh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia978 Posts
December 04 2010 11:34 GMT
#363
Lol so at the ned of the day 14 hatch 15 pool is still the best build.
Dont look at the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.
blackodd
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden451 Posts
December 04 2010 16:49 GMT
#364
On December 04 2010 20:34 nihoh wrote:
Lol so at the ned of the day 14 hatch 15 pool is still the best build.


Best? I'll 11 pool any day in zvz
For I am the Queen of Blades. And none shall ever dispute my rule, again...
Skrag
Profile Joined May 2010
United States643 Posts
December 04 2010 18:53 GMT
#365
On December 04 2010 20:34 nihoh wrote:
Lol so at the ned of the day 14 hatch 15 pool is still the best build.


Personally, I think 14h/14p is slightly better. It pays a very small economy price to gain a larva advantage.
"Just go *@#$ing kill him!" -- Day[9] "Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!" - Artosis
Blu3
Profile Joined August 2010
United States126 Posts
December 04 2010 22:33 GMT
#366
I think the point was economy, which is NOT always best IN GAME.
So, if you think they are going to try something sneaky, sure, go for the 11 pool!! Common sense!
If you scout them and they are walling off, then do your 14 hatch, 15 pool, nuff said!

Anyways, good job overall!
Blu3
Blu3 is the color that wins
Cambam
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States360 Posts
December 05 2010 01:03 GMT
#367
On December 04 2010 15:29 Cambam wrote:
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I don't know how to search an individual thread. (Please feel free to let me know how).

What's the best response to getting your hatch blocked by a pylon or ebay in the 14 hatch 15 pool build? This just happened to me for the first time today and I did a 14 pool as soon as I saw the probe near my nat. I built 4 lings killed it and made a hatch ASAP (don't remember what food). My economy was horrible. So what's the best way to respond?

Also, what if he's just blocking it with a probe but doesn't throw down a pylon? Either he runs it away or you kill it.


Anyone?
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
December 05 2010 02:58 GMT
#368
On December 05 2010 10:03 Cambam wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2010 15:29 Cambam wrote:
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I don't know how to search an individual thread. (Please feel free to let me know how).

What's the best response to getting your hatch blocked by a pylon or ebay in the 14 hatch 15 pool build? This just happened to me for the first time today and I did a 14 pool as soon as I saw the probe near my nat. I built 4 lings killed it and made a hatch ASAP (don't remember what food). My economy was horrible. So what's the best way to respond?

Also, what if he's just blocking it with a probe but doesn't throw down a pylon? Either he runs it away or you kill it.


Anyone?


Well you could try chasing the worker around with two workers, or just put down a pool and wait for lings... There is really nothing you can do to stop it.

I would personally recommend not trying to go hatch first. Even if you get it down no problem, you are likely going to die soon anyways if your opponent knows what he is doing... Pool first is more solid.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
roadrunner343
Profile Joined November 2010
148 Posts
December 05 2010 04:36 GMT
#369
I've agreed with most everything you have said so far, and I think this thread has done the Zerg community a lot of good. I've seen the Lomilar build several times online already.

However, I do not agree with your comments about hatch first. I absolutely recommend it if you think you can pool it off. On larger maps, it's basically a freebie against Terran or Protoss if you are scouting properly. Obviously if you see a 2/3 Rax rush or a 2 Gate, you need to start building lings. Again, if you scout, are on a large map, and know your opponent is not going to cheese, you should be safe. 14pool/14hatch has been my go to build for Terran and Protoss matchups on most maps (Other than Steppes and Xel Naga or against Zerg) at 18-1900ish Diamond.
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-05 08:47:07
December 05 2010 08:30 GMT
#370
On December 05 2010 10:03 Cambam wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2010 15:29 Cambam wrote:
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I don't know how to search an individual thread. (Please feel free to let me know how).

What's the best response to getting your hatch blocked by a pylon or ebay in the 14 hatch 15 pool build? This just happened to me for the first time today and I did a 14 pool as soon as I saw the probe near my nat. I built 4 lings killed it and made a hatch ASAP (don't remember what food). My economy was horrible. So what's the best way to respond?

Also, what if he's just blocking it with a probe but doesn't throw down a pylon? Either he runs it away or you kill it.


Anyone?


I'm pretty sure this thread is dead, in that the OP isn't being updated anymore. Most of the focus seems to be on 11 Pool 13 Pool build that you see, and a new post has been created for that. I'm not going to get involved here, but I'm certain the hatch first build listed here is not the most economic build there is, despite what the thread makes it seem like. Like I said, I think the poster stopped updating that long ago.

I did provide some replays with a build or two that beat that in an earlier post, but I will be the first person to say that replays are fallible evidence. I've found that if you're one second slow or if you're inefficient in any manner you may lose anywhere from 30-150 minerals in your final outcome, so even though my replay I posted did better than the replay given in the thread for the 14/15, I'm not going to claim that that particular build is better. I've been starting to use build order testers instead. You may call that "theory-craft", but I think it's more reliable.

The build I'm testing on the ladder right now to see if I can pull off holding it against early pressure is a 15 Pool 16 Hatch build, and it does perform better than the 14 Hatch build listed here. I have no clue if it's the best build there is but it has been the best I have found so far.

Here's the build order if anyone wants to try it out themselves/decide for themselves.

9 Overlord
15 Spawning Pool
16 Hatchery
15 Overlord
16 Queen
21 Queen
23 Overlord
33 Overlord
33 Overlord

NOTE: The double overlord at 33 is not a mistake. If done right two larvae injects will pop very soon after the first overlord in needed. Also this build order will get you to two fully saturated bases if you are lucky enough in a game to ever drone for that long uninterrupted. Obviously, when in a real game you will need more overlord cycles to reach this point since many more larvae will be put into some sort of army.

If you want me to prove that the build is better than 14/15, I'm not interested. You'll have to test it on your own if you're interested. I did that for myself, and that's all I care about. I figured I would share the build for people who prefer the more economical openings to try if they want to, since there is already plenty of discussion about the early pool openings, aka the 11 Pool build.
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-05 09:24:34
December 05 2010 09:21 GMT
#371
On December 04 2010 20:17 Flopplop wrote:
why would you guys want to compare any build with 16 hatch 15 pool, its practically suicidal. The most eco build we compare it to should be 14 hatch, no later.


The hatch isn't as important as you would think. The pool is more important. Many pro players will throw up a pool first and then kind of wait it out until scouting information comes in, at which point the hatches many times will go down as late as 18. Obviously many players have a fixed build order, but I've seen the scouting method used a lot too, with what seems like very late hatches.

Also the original idea of the post was to find the most economical build regardless of if it can work in game. From there you could figure out by trying it out what the most economical build was that you could actually pull off.
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
December 05 2010 09:26 GMT
#372
On December 04 2010 15:37 Douillos wrote:
Really, the best opening IMO would be 16 pool 18 hatch. I's logical, knowing that 14pool 16 hatch is better than 11 overpoool.

But I still believe that the best opening and my new standard is the 11 overpool.


This actually isn't true because you get the minerals to be able to place the pool before 16, so you don't have to sacrifice anything to make it earlier.
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
December 05 2010 09:32 GMT
#373
On December 03 2010 16:35 roadrunner343 wrote:
250 minerals is important, yes. As you said though, I'm not exactly sure what the mining difference is, as there are a couple different reportings. Still, i would like to bet that if I did the lomilar build vs a 16 hatch first build, I could do enough damage to justify only 250 minerals of a difference (Maybe more, maybe less)

I'm not going to argue with you over which is the best for certain, because I don't know. I too tend to 14 pool 14 hatch fairly often, I like the feel of it, and that is at 1900 Diamond play, so I'm not saying it can't be done. However, what I am saying, is that the 11 pool build can still be very economic AND fend off extremely early pressure, something I have problems with when I utilize the hatch first.


I totally agree with you that the 11 pool can be economic. It does lag behind but it doesn't bury your economy in any respect. I think the 11 pool build is very good and does have flexibility. Personally I like to try and figure out how to fend the most economic build possible, so the 11 pool isn't my style, even though it's still a very good build.

As far as economic judgment goes, despite the fact that I liked the original idea of this post, I'm now using build order testers. They don't have large fluctuations in results that making a replay does. When I get a result in a replay it could be 50 minerals slow, 100 minerals slow, or it could be perfect. I don't really know since very tiny differences in play seem to have sizable effects.

jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
December 05 2010 15:00 GMT
#374
On December 04 2010 20:17 Flopplop wrote:
why would you guys want to compare any build with 16 hatch 15 pool, its practically suicidal. The most eco build we compare it to should be 14 hatch, no later.


The reason is because the pool is actually only about 3 seconds delayed compared to a 14 Hatch 14 Pool build. You don't really know that just looking at the supply, which is what I'm assuming you did.
DuncanIdaho
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States465 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-05 16:53:02
December 05 2010 16:16 GMT
#375
So, I'm not sure if this has been addressed (as there are 19 pages of comments), but I see nothing in the OP about it. My issue is about when these builds would suggest to gas. It seems the econ issue is a matter of minerals only, not gas...

Given, from a stance of hatch vs pool 1st and when, do we 9olord/extractor trick, etc., I doubt the addition of an extractor in there will make any of the rank orders of best builds shift, assuming the extractor is placed in each BO optimally. For argument's sake of "what is economic", perhaps out of simplicity's sake, one gas run can be considered equivalent to one mineral run? Idk, gas is a strange topic, perhaps it could be argued that a strong econ is roughly 2/3 minerals and 1/3 gas, but at what early/mid/late points does this ratio change, who knows...

In any case, good thread, but an answer to when to gas and how hard is worth discussion.

~Duncan Idaho

Edit add-in: So I started thinking about the min:gas ratio. Early on, minerals are more important, with maybe an initial 100-150 gas and then back to mining.

However, I believe it would depend upon your unit composition plan, and for simplicity sake, I'll assume it's set in stone from the beginning, and I'll discuss a more fluid design after.

Ground: 2/3 min 1/3 gas

Banelings: 50(min)/25(gas) (25 min half ling, 25/25 bling morph)
Roaches: 75/25 (given, 3/4m to 1/4g, so perhaps if a more roach heavy hedging towards a 1/4 gas composition might be optimal)
Hydra: 100/50

Given, zerglings (25m), infestors (100/150), and ultralisks (300/200) break this mold even more, but in any case, I think the added gas cost of the infestors will be reduced by the lower gas cost of the lings and roaches, so I still feel 2/3m 1/3 gas is a nice econ composition to shoot for. If you're going ultras, perhaps getting a gas only expo will be sufficient (in addition to at least 2 fully saturated gas&min bases)

Air: minerals1/2(+a small amount) and gas1/2(- a small amount)

Good luck achieveing this with only 2 geysers and lots of mineral patches per base, but perhaps minerals are spent on the base enough to makeup for any disparity.

Mutas: 100/100
Corrupters: 150/100
Broodlords: 300/250

So that's some things to chew on, not that we can't have a mix of Ground&Air, we most certainly can, but one could use this heuristic as a way to hedge their econ in the thick of things, more 2/3:1/3 if more ground-preultra, more 1/2:1/2 if more air oriented, and somewhere in between for mixtures. Also, for roach only (which I discourage any one unit only builds), perhaps a more 3/4 to 1/4 economy, and for mass lings, only the minimum gas necessary for upgrades.

However, this brings us to the idea of fluidity. These min:gas ideas work optimally if you stick to the plan, however if say you're going all mutas and the terran has gone all anti-air, perhaps an ajustment is in order. I'd say, pick an initial plan, stick to it until you have to adjust, and then adjust per the above concepts. As for the current question, though, of when to gas, I think I may have stumbled upon the "general" answer, the question is, how much do you need, and how soon? That changes everything, making a linear (or hell, maybe even quadratic or higher order) relationship between the extractor build order position and unit composition goals. Okay, so someone determine that equation! Do it! Do it now!
The spice must flow... Grammar lesson: "than" is used for quantity comparisons, "then" is used for chronological statements. The next forum user who says, "I'd do such and such, THAN I'd do such and such else," is gonna make me cry...
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
December 05 2010 17:01 GMT
#376
On December 06 2010 01:16 DuncanIdaho wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

So, I'm not sure if this has been addressed (as there are 19 pages of comments), but I see nothing in the OP about it. My issue is about when these builds would suggest to gas. It seems the econ issue is a matter of minerals only, not gas...

Given, from a stance of hatch vs pool 1st and when, do we 9olord/extractor trick, etc., I doubt the addition of an extractor in there will make any of the rank orders of best builds shift, assuming the extractor is placed in each BO optimally. For argument's sake of "what is economic", perhaps out of simplicity's sake, one gas run can be considered equivalent to one mineral run? Idk, gas is a strange topic, perhaps it could be argued that a strong econ is roughly 2/3 minerals and 1/3 gas, but at what early/mid/late points does this ratio change, who knows...

In any case, good thread, but an answer to when to gas and how hard is worth discussion.

~Duncan Idaho

Edit add-in: So I started thinking about the min:gas ratio. Early on, minerals are more important, with maybe an initial 100-150 gas and then back to mining.

However, I believe it would depend upon your unit composition plan, and for simplicity sake, I'll assume it's set in stone from the beginning, and I'll discuss a more fluid design after.

Ground: 2/3 min 1/3 gas

Banelings: 50(min)/25(gas) (25 min half ling, 25/25 bling morph)
Roaches: 75/25 (given, 3/4m to 1/4g, so perhaps if a more roach heavy hedging towards a 1/4 gas composition might be optimal)
Hydra: 100/50

Given, zerglings (25m), infestors (100/150), and ultralisks (300/200) break this mold even more, but in any case, I think the added gas cost of the infestors will be reduced by the lower gas cost of the lings and roaches, so I still feel 2/3m 1/3 gas is a nice econ composition to shoot for. If you're going ultras, perhaps getting a gas only expo will be sufficient (in addition to at least 2 fully saturated gas&min bases)

Air: minerals1/2(+a small amount) and gas1/2(- a small amount)

Good luck achieveing this with only 2 geysers and lots of mineral patches per base, but perhaps minerals are spent on the base enough to makeup for any disparity.

Mutas: 100/100
Corrupters: 150/100
Broodlords: 300/250

So that's some things to chew on, not that we can't have a mix of Ground&Air, we most certainly can, but one could use this heuristic as a way to hedge their econ in the thick of things, more 2/3:1/3 if more ground-preultra, more 1/2:1/2 if more air oriented, and somewhere in between for mixtures. Also, for roach only (which I discourage any one unit only builds), perhaps a more 3/4 to 1/4 economy, and for mass lings, only the minimum gas necessary for upgrades.

However, this brings us to the idea of fluidity. These min:gas ideas work optimally if you stick to the plan, however if say you're going all mutas and the terran has gone all anti-air, perhaps an ajustment is in order. I'd say, pick an initial plan, stick to it until you have to adjust, and then adjust per the above concepts. As for the current question, though, of when to gas, I think I may have stumbled upon the "general" answer, the question is, how much do you need, and how soon? That changes everything, making a linear (or hell, maybe even quadratic or higher order) relationship between the extractor build order position and unit composition goals. Okay, so someone determine that equation! Do it! Do it now!


This is why we can't include gas, because the relative value of gas to minerals is completely subjective, and there is no way you will get everyone to agree.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
December 05 2010 17:17 GMT
#377
On December 06 2010 02:01 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2010 01:16 DuncanIdaho wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

So, I'm not sure if this has been addressed (as there are 19 pages of comments), but I see nothing in the OP about it. My issue is about when these builds would suggest to gas. It seems the econ issue is a matter of minerals only, not gas...

Given, from a stance of hatch vs pool 1st and when, do we 9olord/extractor trick, etc., I doubt the addition of an extractor in there will make any of the rank orders of best builds shift, assuming the extractor is placed in each BO optimally. For argument's sake of "what is economic", perhaps out of simplicity's sake, one gas run can be considered equivalent to one mineral run? Idk, gas is a strange topic, perhaps it could be argued that a strong econ is roughly 2/3 minerals and 1/3 gas, but at what early/mid/late points does this ratio change, who knows...

In any case, good thread, but an answer to when to gas and how hard is worth discussion.

~Duncan Idaho

Edit add-in: So I started thinking about the min:gas ratio. Early on, minerals are more important, with maybe an initial 100-150 gas and then back to mining.

However, I believe it would depend upon your unit composition plan, and for simplicity sake, I'll assume it's set in stone from the beginning, and I'll discuss a more fluid design after.

Ground: 2/3 min 1/3 gas

Banelings: 50(min)/25(gas) (25 min half ling, 25/25 bling morph)
Roaches: 75/25 (given, 3/4m to 1/4g, so perhaps if a more roach heavy hedging towards a 1/4 gas composition might be optimal)
Hydra: 100/50

Given, zerglings (25m), infestors (100/150), and ultralisks (300/200) break this mold even more, but in any case, I think the added gas cost of the infestors will be reduced by the lower gas cost of the lings and roaches, so I still feel 2/3m 1/3 gas is a nice econ composition to shoot for. If you're going ultras, perhaps getting a gas only expo will be sufficient (in addition to at least 2 fully saturated gas&min bases)

Air: minerals1/2(+a small amount) and gas1/2(- a small amount)

Good luck achieveing this with only 2 geysers and lots of mineral patches per base, but perhaps minerals are spent on the base enough to makeup for any disparity.

Mutas: 100/100
Corrupters: 150/100
Broodlords: 300/250

So that's some things to chew on, not that we can't have a mix of Ground&Air, we most certainly can, but one could use this heuristic as a way to hedge their econ in the thick of things, more 2/3:1/3 if more ground-preultra, more 1/2:1/2 if more air oriented, and somewhere in between for mixtures. Also, for roach only (which I discourage any one unit only builds), perhaps a more 3/4 to 1/4 economy, and for mass lings, only the minimum gas necessary for upgrades.

However, this brings us to the idea of fluidity. These min:gas ideas work optimally if you stick to the plan, however if say you're going all mutas and the terran has gone all anti-air, perhaps an ajustment is in order. I'd say, pick an initial plan, stick to it until you have to adjust, and then adjust per the above concepts. As for the current question, though, of when to gas, I think I may have stumbled upon the "general" answer, the question is, how much do you need, and how soon? That changes everything, making a linear (or hell, maybe even quadratic or higher order) relationship between the extractor build order position and unit composition goals. Okay, so someone determine that equation! Do it! Do it now!


This is why we can't include gas, because the relative value of gas to minerals is completely subjective, and there is no way you will get everyone to agree.


You're totally right. I also think it's worth nothing that we're not really looking at minerals mined. We're looking at worker minutes that each build produces. We're doing this in a round about way, minerals, but if we were you put a certain emphasis on gas the build with the more worker minutes is still going to have the best economy. This will be true for any distribution of gas and minerals, unless the build you want to do gets gas REALLY early.
SpaceYeti
Profile Joined June 2010
United States723 Posts
December 07 2010 15:02 GMT
#378
If you're going to really compare these, you need to collect multiple readings (20+) for each build and then run stats on the results for significance. Likelihood is that a lot of these do not differ significantly.
Behavior is a function of its consequences.
rockslave
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Brazil318 Posts
December 09 2010 15:54 GMT
#379
Have you guys tried 15 hatch 17 pool? Yes it is very very risky but it can work when you scout stuff like 1 rax no gas.
What qxc said.
vsportsguy
Profile Joined September 2010
United States118 Posts
December 09 2010 19:55 GMT
#380
On December 10 2010 00:54 rockslave wrote:
Have you guys tried 15 hatch 17 pool? Yes it is very very risky but it can work when you scout stuff like 1 rax no gas.

Unfortunately many times this means they hid a second rax. If I see 1 rax no gas I start looking for a 2nd rax (its usually close to their base, they just don't want to give away 2 rax). Also I make sure any refineries are fully completed before I make any assumptions. I see a lot of terrans hide their second rax and fake a gas to make it look like a standard 12 rax 13 gas.
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