EPTPutting an end to the Zerg Opening Economy debate. - Page 18
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obsid
United States389 Posts
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jacobman
217 Posts
The big problem I saw with most of the replays was that you didn't really need the pool out so early in most of them, thus negating the effect of the early pool. You could have done more economic builds in many of those since you didn't make lings until late. The one replay I really like though was the second one against the zerg. The opponents lings did come pretty early and getting the queen slightly earlier did give you a few more lings when the attack came, which although you did manage to hold off the attack without those, they helped for a counter attack | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
I think the point of this build is to get the early pool and then NOT build lings (just use the pool for the early queen and get drones with the extra larva). So I would say that he DID need that pool out even though he didnt build any lings. | ||
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roadrunner343
148 Posts
The primary point of the Lomilar build is the fact that it is the #2 economy build. The differences between the Lomilar and 15 Hatch, 14 pool (Or whatever the leader is) is so small it is unbelievable. It is remarkable that such an early pool is actually very economic. You are correct though, I could have went for hatch first if I really wanted in some of those games. However, I was trying to get some replays for the lomilar build so I didn't want to do that =) It just goes to show how flexible it really is. | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
I know what the point of the early pool is in the build as far as making up for the late hatch. My real point was simply that the more economic hatch first builds could have been used without any question in most of the replays @ roadrunner I'm not sold on the difference between the viable hatch first builds and the lomilar build being so small. Based off of the replay in the thread and my own test of the lomilar build, it lags behind the 16 hatch 15 pool build by 250 minerals. That's almost an extra hatchery, which is not insignificant. It's possible that the build is too slow to survive early pressure, but I seriously doubt it. My friend used to use the 14 hatch 14 pool build in 2000 diamond without any issues, and the 16 hatch 15 pool build is only three seconds slower at getting the pool up than the 14/14. | ||
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roadrunner343
148 Posts
I'm not going to argue with you over which is the best for certain, because I don't know. I too tend to 14 pool 14 hatch fairly often, I like the feel of it, and that is at 1900 Diamond play, so I'm not saying it can't be done. However, what I am saying, is that the 11 pool build can still be very economic AND fend off extremely early pressure, something I have problems with when I utilize the hatch first. | ||
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orotoss
United States298 Posts
10 extractor trick 11 overlord 11 pool 16 gas (right before pool finishes) 15 queen + 2 lings 18 hatch 17 overlord From there I just drone up and react to what my opponent is doing. You can easily go for speedling/baneling or roach if necessary. Although this build may not be the best macro build, I love how versatile it is. The early pool is great in zvz if you scout an early pool or a fast expand. Since you are throwing a late hatch, you don't have to worry about T or P blocking your ramp and the lings always get out in time to kill the scouting worker. The early pool also gives you the ability to be aggressive on one base, if you see an opponent attempting to be greedy with their build. My days of losing to proxy bunkers and cannon wall-ins are over. | ||
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roadrunner343
148 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170964.jpg) After the match, I checked his build order. What in the world did he destroy me with? You guessed it, the lomilar build. Pigge did an awesome job of showing how the build can be used for a lot of early pressure... and he crushed me. Grats to him. Looks like the 11 pool economy build is starting to catch on on the ladder! | ||
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Pigge
Sweden88 Posts
On December 03 2010 18:47 roadrunner343 wrote: I just had to post this one more replay. I just had a match against an opponent named Pigge. He absolutely crushed my Lomilar build. After the match, I checked his build order. What in the world did he destroy me with? You guessed it, the lomilar build. Pigge did an awesome job of showing how the build can be used for a lot of early pressure... and he crushed me. Grats to him. Looks like the 11 pool economy build is starting to catch on on the ladder! thanks for the compliment  | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
I took data at the beginning of the second of the 6:00 mark. It's very important that it's consistantly at the beginning of the second. Note that the amount for the 11 pool is taken from the only replay that the OP provided in the post where the build originated. He has a table that claims 4620, but I believe that he got that number by taking data at the end of the second. Unless I see a replay otherwise I have to believe 2530 is the correct number at the beginning of the second since I have gotten about that every time I have done the build. Here are the results for different build orders. + Show Spoiler + 11P/18H + Show Spoiler + Mineral Mined: 4539 Pool Placed: 1:33 Hatch Placed: 3:00 16H/15P + Show Spoiler + Mineral Mined: 4780 Pool Placed: 2:35 Hatch Placed: 2:15 14H/13P + Show Spoiler + Mineral Mined: 4685 Pool Placed: 2:26 Hatch Placed: 2:05 14H/14P + Show Spoiler + Mineral Mined: 4670 Pool Placed: 2:32 Hatch Placed: 2:05 15H/14P + Show Spoiler + NOTE: I messed up slightly on this one, but the numbers are still better than 11 pool so it's relevant Mineral Mined: 4665 Pool Placed: 2:30 Hatch Placed: 2:11 13P/15H + Show Spoiler + Mineral Mined: 4630 Pool Placed: 1:46 Hatch Placed: 2:38 For anyone that thinks an 11 pool doesn't affect your economy, just take note that pretty much every hatch first build under sun performs better by at least 100 minerals, which is not that small. Also, note that a 13P/15H also performs better. I don't know how many other builds perform better than the 11 pool but I thought that that was relevant because the pool time on that build was only 13 seconds slower than the 11 pool build, and the hatch was quicker than the 11 pool. Here are all the replays mentioned for you to double check things and get a more precise idea of the build orders. I also included the replay that the OP gave in his post about the 11 pool build order for convenience. Some of the replays of the hatch first build I just winged the overlord timings, so don't follow those too closely. The only ones with planned overlord timings are the 16 Hatch 15 Pool and the 11 Pool 18 Hatch replays. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Blurb
Denmark55 Posts
Could you give it some thorough testing? The suggested build order is: 10 Overlord 10 ExtractorTrick 15 Hatchery 17 SpawningPool 16 Hatchery 15 Overlord 19 Queen 23 Queen 28 Overlord 28 Overlord 30 ExtractorTrick 31 Queen 36 Overlord 51 Overlord 53 Overlord 70 ExtractorTrick | ||
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jacobman
217 Posts
I'll give it a try and see what happens. I can't remember if I've tried that build yet. I've tried a whole ton so it's possible. EDIT: I was going to try it and then I noticed it was a double expand build. I'm almost certain it does better economically, so I don't really feel like testing it. Also, it doesn't even seem close to a feasible build, so I'm not too interested. The reason I listed the 16 Hatch before was because its pool time was almost identical to commonly used builds such as 14/14 or 15/14. | ||
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Grend
1600 Posts
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Blurb
Denmark55 Posts
On December 03 2010 19:37 jacobman wrote: @ Blurb I'll give it a try and see what happens. I can't remember if I've tried that build yet. I've tried a whole ton so it's possible. EDIT: I was going to try it and then I noticed it was a double expand build. I'm almost certain it does better economically, so I don't really feel like testing it. Also, it doesn't even seem close to a feasible build, so I'm not too interested. The reason I listed the 16 Hatch before was because its pool time was almost identical to commonly used builds such as 14/14 or 15/14. It's actually supposed to work off of one base only. Evochamber lists it as only one base (I guess that means one expansion), so one hatch will be inbase - minerals will go to waste otherwise. The builds I tried with three hatches worked perfectly fine with one inbase hatch. On December 03 2010 23:35 Grend wrote: 15 hatch 17 pool sounds suicidal though. Granted it may be better economy wise, but you`ll be dead to any early pressure. Can't argue on its usefulness in 1v1 or 2v2, as my friend is mostly using it in 3v3. With two players rushing, and one player going for a huge bunch of Mutas around the 8-min mark, we've been doing pretty well. | ||
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purecarnagge
719 Posts
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evilm0nkey
53 Posts
thanks a lot for this thread, great to finally see an overview from the economic point of view. I've been using a similar 11 pool for quite some time now, especially in 2vs2 / 3vs3 / 4vs4, knowing that its a great econ build, although i didnt know it was that good. However, i've been playing it slightly different: 10 Extractor trick 11 Pool 10 Extractor trick 11 Overlord @ Overlord finish: only 1 Drone, save larva So basically i build the pool before second Overlord. That way I will have 3 larva exactly by the time my pool finishes. I usually time my drone scout in order to be at the enemy's base right at that time, so I can decide to either produce 6 Zerglings or 3 Drones. Im pretty sure this is worse than the 11 Ovi 11 Pool build in terms of economy if you pump only drones, but if you save larva for 6 lings (or just want to threaten early lings), Pool before Overlord is the winner as you wont need that Overlord so early and also your lings will be significantly earlier. I know you are looking at builds only from the ecomomic point of view, but I think getting pool first makes this build much stronger without losing a lot of economy if you chose to skip lings, making it more versatile in a real game situation. I would love to see a comparision. What do you guys think? | ||
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roadrunner343
148 Posts
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
What's the best response to getting your hatch blocked by a pylon or ebay in the 14 hatch 15 pool build? This just happened to me for the first time today and I did a 14 pool as soon as I saw the probe near my nat. I built 4 lings killed it and made a hatch ASAP (don't remember what food). My economy was horrible. So what's the best way to respond? Also, what if he's just blocking it with a probe but doesn't throw down a pylon? Either he runs it away or you kill it. | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
But I still believe that the best opening and my new standard is the 11 overpool. | ||
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Lomilar
United States130 Posts
On December 03 2010 19:37 jacobman wrote: @ Blurb I'll give it a try and see what happens. I can't remember if I've tried that build yet. I've tried a whole ton so it's possible. EDIT: I was going to try it and then I noticed it was a double expand build. I'm almost certain it does better economically, so I don't really feel like testing it. Also, it doesn't even seem close to a feasible build, so I'm not too interested. The reason I listed the 16 Hatch before was because its pool time was almost identical to commonly used builds such as 14/14 or 15/14. Also note, I found there is an issue with how the evo chamber spawns larva. It will be fixed in 0023, but on page 7 or so is where I figure out how it really works. And yes, double expand build is awesome sauce. :-) I remember it honing in on that as well. | ||
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