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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On November 28 2010 03:59 Shikyo wrote: 2100 diamonds are terrible yeah T_T Need to play more, 400 bonus pool -_- Actually, maybe he forge+gate cannon in-base because he saw your 10pool and expected some early ling rush and built a cannon in response? 10pool is pretty early and is usually a sign of some kind of zergling all-in. Just sayin' | ||
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Imhotep
Sweden267 Posts
On November 28 2010 06:15 navara wrote: i'd like those replay if you don't mind =) Yeah that would be awesome :D | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
the 10 pool 17/18 hatch was about 350 minerals behind those at the same point. Edit: just did it a 2nd time with cleaner build times and here were my results http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/14hatch15pool.jpg http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/16pool16hatch.jpg http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/10pool18hatch.jpg the hatch first opening seemed to be a clear winner. More minerals and more larva. It'd be cool if other people could go test it themselves to compare results. | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote: Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU. God that's so dumb when would you get gas for ling bling ZvZ or would you just get a 10 roach warren??? A 10 pool is hard countered by a 14 pool and I or any other zerg could easily show you that. | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On November 28 2010 08:05 Tachion wrote: This is by no means definite or fool proof, but just in my own personal testing of 14 hatch 15 pool vs 16 pool 16 hatch I had a 12 mineral difference at the 6 min mark after getting queens out from the 2nd hatch asap. no gas. Stopped at 30 supply both times after my main was fully saturated. ... the hatch first opening seemed to be a clear winner. More minerals and more larva. It'd be cool if other people could go test it themselves to compare results. How did you measure the number of Larvae if you weren't making units? I usually do continuous Zergling/Overlord production when I do these tests, so that I can count my Larva by looking at supply. Previously in this thread, people (including myself) have done these tests with continuous Drone/Overlord production, and you can see there that builds with earlier pools produced more larvae. (P.S. a very late pool like 16 pool is not very representative of pool-first builds) | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On November 28 2010 08:20 SlapMySalami wrote:God that's so dumb when would you get gas for ling bling ZvZ or would you just get a 10 roach warren??? A 10 pool is hard countered by a 14 pool and I or any other zerg could easily show you that. Would you mind sharing what 14 Pool build you use in Zerg vs Zerg? I haven't yet found any late Pool build that actually makes combat units that couldn't be converted into an even better early Pool build. (but I haven't tried many) | ||
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Pwere
Canada1556 Posts
On November 28 2010 08:20 SlapMySalami wrote: Only if you make 6 lings right away and send them to die or do absolutely nothing. If you only make a pair of lings and drone + deny OV scouting with early queen, you're ahead.God that's so dumb when would you get gas for ling bling ZvZ or would you just get a 10 roach warren??? A 10 pool is hard countered by a 14 pool and I or any other zerg could easily show you that. Iirc, 10trick -> 11pool was the best early pool build for larvae. | ||
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slith
Germany165 Posts
How effectively you deny scouting is also very important, combined with the fact that you can easily transition into any kind of early game aggression - your enemy will know this. I think this is the biggest gain of economic pool-first builds. I don't mind having 300 minerals less if my enemy is in total dark of what I'm doing and is scared of early Zerg attacks. This way you start with the game-controlling style Zerg is so good at right at the start, instead of giving your enemy a wide array of options to annoy you while you try to mine all the resources*. *)+ Show Spoiler + "Your throat emits a feral sound – O destiny, you know your place. You drink the rivers, eat the ground As part of the victorious race." - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137387 | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
http://replayfu.com/download/LzLKKc another zvt. pretty good stomping i think. http://replayfu.com/download/Kmj66m i dont even think i played that great but i still win. it seemed like in the first game he was gonna bunker me but early lings sent him back. | ||
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TheOvermind77
United States923 Posts
10ov, 10 pool, 14 ext, 15 queen, 17 ling, 18 hatch vs 14pool, 13 ext, 15 hatch, 15 queen, 17 ov 18 ling (A build I use often) They came out nearly dead even (as in max 10 second difference) to 36 supply. Except the first one was totally 10 pool, which I know I hate seeing as toss. And is super safe vs cheese. Definitely going to try some 10pool eco on ladder, now. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 28 2010 08:20 SlapMySalami wrote: God that's so dumb when would you get gas for ling bling ZvZ or would you just get a 10 roach warren??? A 10 pool is hard countered by a 14 pool and I or any other zerg could easily show you that. Heh? Vs 14pool I do 10pool and get gas around 16 for Roaches. I don't make lings right away... I get better economy than 14pool. Have you tested this or are you just spewing these "facts" out of your you-know-what? On November 28 2010 09:16 Pwere wrote: Only if you make 6 lings right away and send them to die or do absolutely nothing. If you only make a pair of lings and drone + deny OV scouting with early queen, you're ahead. Iirc, 10trick -> 11pool was the best early pool build for larvae. I actually make 3 drones after pool is done and only then do I make one pair of lings and I'm ahead in econ and safe vs 14pool because I have one spawn larvae-cycle more(and 2->4lings + queen defends easily vs 6 lings). On November 28 2010 14:31 TheOvermind77 wrote: That's wrong, do 10pool 10double extractor trick 12ov 12queen, it's amazing(with perfect extractor trick ov finishes the same millisecond as your pool does, but you can just chill and place the pool at 225 or so minerals for a tiny(not even 5 minerals) bit better econ and more reliable timing). BTW I just tested a 10pool variant against my standard 14pool/13extractor/15 hatch. My goal was to get two queens, and expo, two extractors, and to also throw down a roach warren around 23-25 supply. 10ov, 10 pool, 14 ext, 15 queen, 17 ling, 18 hatch vs 14pool, 13 ext, 15 hatch, 15 queen, 17 ov 18 ling (A build I use often) They came out nearly dead even (as in max 10 second difference) to 36 supply. Except the first one was totally 10 pool, which I know I hate seeing as toss. And is super safe vs cheese. Definitely going to try some 10pool eco on ladder, now. | ||
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TheOvermind77
United States923 Posts
That's wrong, do 10pool 10double extractor trick 12ov 12queen, it's amazing(with perfect extractor trick ov finishes the same millisecond as your pool does, but you can just chill and place the pool at 225 or so minerals for a tiny(not even 5 minerals) bit better econ and more reliable timing). Let me give it a try vs the build I tried. Is everything else similar after that point? | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 28 2010 14:49 TheOvermind77 wrote: Let me give it a try vs the build I tried. Is everything else similar after that point? I do 12queen 14drone 15drone 16extractor at earliest(ofc you can get this right after queen at 14 supply if needed but it won't be as smooth) etc, a pair of lings at 16-18 supply as needed. You can get the ov at 17 supply and it'll be fine, and expansion hatch at 18 if I expand, if not Roach warren or something. | ||
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TheOvermind77
United States923 Posts
On November 28 2010 14:55 Shikyo wrote: I do 12queen 14drone 15drone 16extractor at earliest(ofc you can get this right after queen at 14 supply if needed but it won't be as smooth) etc, a pair of lings at 16-18 supply as needed. You can get the ov at 17 supply and it'll be fine, and expansion hatch at 18 if I expand, if not Roach warren or something. Beautiful, just gave it a shot vs an AI while you were probably typing a reply. I have a feeling this might change zerg quite a bit if it catches on. 10pool feinting gives some amazing options! | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
It's accidentally an extremely smooth build. xD | ||
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kunstderfugue
Mexico375 Posts
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
Some openings have the property that production capacity exceeds income. For example, if you start teching and pumping Zerglings, or maybe two-base Roaches. In these cases, sacrificing minerals for larvae is counter-productive; late* pools or Hatch first builds are more appropriate for these situations. *: I am still skeptical that super-late pools are ever the right choice | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 28 2010 15:01 TheOvermind77 wrote: Beautiful, just gave it a shot vs an AI while you were probably typing a reply. I have a feeling this might change zerg quite a bit if it catches on. 10pool feinting gives some amazing options! Pff don't worry, it wont until a pro uses it regularly and even then no one would give me credit. ;O | ||
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