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[D] Is hatch first really more economical? - Page 6

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
November 27 2010 21:25 GMT
#101
On November 28 2010 03:59 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2010 03:28 Darthturtle wrote:
On November 28 2010 03:19 Shikyo wrote:
On November 28 2010 01:54 shutdown_exploded wrote:
On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU.

replay or it didn't happen?

LOL Actually it was a 5gate wtf o_O I thought it was 3-gate, no wonder it was such a strong attack. But yeah :


http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169353

Feels soooo strong.


Nothing against your play, but I'm watching this protoss go forge gate cannon in-base and then chrono his gate and not build anything from it.

2100 diamonds are terrible yeah T_T Need to play more, 400 bonus pool -_-

Actually, maybe he forge+gate cannon in-base because he saw your 10pool and expected some early ling rush and built a cannon in response? 10pool is pretty early and is usually a sign of some kind of zergling all-in.

Just sayin'
Imhotep
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden267 Posts
November 27 2010 21:36 GMT
#102
On November 28 2010 06:15 navara wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2010 06:06 Vaporized wrote:
i am now a 10 pool/17 hatch convert. won 4 in a row against ~2000 diamond. just dominated.

for the first time i beat a 15 nexus without early roach/ling pressure. this is how i want to play zerg. 17 hatch, and 25 hatch at a third. all three were saturated before he had sent one unit to my base. he brought 3 phoenix and 3 void ray. i had 6 hydras already, and 10 more producing. send the survivors + early lings i had, + ROACHES i rallied. my econ was so good, + larva on three hatches... i could pump ~20 roaches twice. the first wave +hydras took out the nat. the second wave + survivors of the first pushed into his main for the gg.

beat a marine/tank terran. stomped him, he was like wtf after each battle. my army was already rolling by the time he was ready to push, 12 mutas, 20 banelings, 40 lings.

the quicker saturation makes a world of difference in getting your early econ going. feels so much better then 14 hatch. yesterday i couldnt win 14 hatching. today i cant lose 10 pooling. so counterintuitive but i highly recommened trying it.

the one problem is the marine+scv rushes. the timing can be off for having a spine rdy at ur nat. their whole goal is to deny that expansion. maybe i should focus on saturating my main.defending my ramp, and then expanding when he is done sending marines. defending my ramp with spines+lings should completely shut down marine+scv rushes. i will have enough larva to make lings and get a nice drone count going. need to explore this further. but against normal play/ or any toss i will 10 pool.



i'd like those replay if you don't mind =)

Yeah that would be awesome :D
"The world is a dynamic mess of jiggling things." - Richard Feynman
Vaporized
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1471 Posts
November 27 2010 21:40 GMT
#103
pretty sure i didnt save them. sorry guys. if i did i will post them when i get home in a bit. if i didnt i will for sure post the games i play tonight.
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-27 23:32:23
November 27 2010 23:05 GMT
#104
This is by no means definite or fool proof, but just in my own personal testing of 14 hatch 15 pool vs 16 pool 16 hatch I had a 12 mineral difference at the 6 min mark after getting queens out from the 2nd hatch asap. no gas. Stopped at 30 supply both times after my main was fully saturated.
the 10 pool 17/18 hatch was about 350 minerals behind those at the same point.

Edit: just did it a 2nd time with cleaner build times and here were my results

http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/14hatch15pool.jpg
http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/16pool16hatch.jpg
http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/10pool18hatch.jpg

the hatch first opening seemed to be a clear winner. More minerals and more larva. It'd be cool if other people could go test it themselves to compare results.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
Eknoid4
Profile Joined October 2010
United States902 Posts
November 27 2010 23:14 GMT
#105
Why are you assuming that your first queen never comes out? it pretty much always comes out before the hatchery is done
If you're mad that someone else is brazenly trumpeting their beliefs with ignorance, perhaps you should be mad that you are doing it too.
SlapMySalami
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1060 Posts
November 27 2010 23:20 GMT
#106
On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU.



God that's so dumb when would you get gas for ling bling ZvZ or would you just get a 10 roach warren??? A 10 pool is hard countered by a 14 pool and I or any other zerg could easily show you that.
marineking will u huk my bigtt1 ilu
Hurkyl
Profile Joined October 2010
304 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-28 00:08:12
November 28 2010 00:02 GMT
#107
On November 28 2010 08:05 Tachion wrote:
This is by no means definite or fool proof, but just in my own personal testing of 14 hatch 15 pool vs 16 pool 16 hatch I had a 12 mineral difference at the 6 min mark after getting queens out from the 2nd hatch asap. no gas. Stopped at 30 supply both times after my main was fully saturated.
...
the hatch first opening seemed to be a clear winner. More minerals and more larva. It'd be cool if other people could go test it themselves to compare results.

How did you measure the number of Larvae if you weren't making units?

I usually do continuous Zergling/Overlord production when I do these tests, so that I can count my Larva by looking at supply. Previously in this thread, people (including myself) have done these tests with continuous Drone/Overlord production, and you can see there that builds with earlier pools produced more larvae.

(P.S. a very late pool like 16 pool is not very representative of pool-first builds)
Hurkyl
Profile Joined October 2010
304 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-28 00:10:50
November 28 2010 00:02 GMT
#108
On November 28 2010 08:20 SlapMySalami wrote:God that's so dumb when would you get gas for ling bling ZvZ or would you just get a 10 roach warren??? A 10 pool is hard countered by a 14 pool and I or any other zerg could easily show you that.

Would you mind sharing what 14 Pool build you use in Zerg vs Zerg? I haven't yet found any late Pool build that actually makes combat units that couldn't be converted into an even better early Pool build. (but I haven't tried many)
Pwere
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1557 Posts
November 28 2010 00:16 GMT
#109
On November 28 2010 08:20 SlapMySalami wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU.



God that's so dumb when would you get gas for ling bling ZvZ or would you just get a 10 roach warren??? A 10 pool is hard countered by a 14 pool and I or any other zerg could easily show you that.
Only if you make 6 lings right away and send them to die or do absolutely nothing. If you only make a pair of lings and drone + deny OV scouting with early queen, you're ahead.

Iirc, 10trick -> 11pool was the best early pool build for larvae.
slith
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany165 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-28 01:15:39
November 28 2010 01:09 GMT
#110
Would be really great to test each builds with different timed attacks. So we get results after repelling Bunker Rush / Proxy Pylon + Cannon / Lings + Crawler, early Marines / Zealots / Lings, Hellions / Stalker. Or just preparing for the biggest possible attack starting at about 6:20. But I don't want to do this ^^

How effectively you deny scouting is also very important, combined with the fact that you can easily transition into any kind of early game aggression - your enemy will know this. I think this is the biggest gain of economic pool-first builds. I don't mind having 300 minerals less if my enemy is in total dark of what I'm doing and is scared of early Zerg attacks. This way you start with the game-controlling style Zerg is so good at right at the start, instead of giving your enemy a wide array of options to annoy you while you try to mine all the resources*.

*)+ Show Spoiler +
"Your throat emits a feral sound –
O destiny, you know your place.
You drink the rivers, eat the ground
As part of the victorious race."
- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137387
When in doubt, empty your magazine.
Vaporized
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1471 Posts
November 28 2010 03:39 GMT
#111
terran vs me (1800 diamond). its not really close.

http://replayfu.com/download/LzLKKc

another zvt. pretty good stomping i think.

http://replayfu.com/download/Kmj66m

i dont even think i played that great but i still win. it seemed like in the first game he was gonna bunker me but early lings sent him back.
TheOvermind77
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States923 Posts
November 28 2010 05:31 GMT
#112
BTW I just tested a 10pool variant against my standard 14pool/13extractor/15 hatch. My goal was to get two queens, and expo, two extractors, and to also throw down a roach warren around 23-25 supply.

10ov, 10 pool, 14 ext, 15 queen, 17 ling, 18 hatch
vs
14pool, 13 ext, 15 hatch, 15 queen, 17 ov 18 ling (A build I use often)

They came out nearly dead even (as in max 10 second difference) to 36 supply. Except the first one was totally 10 pool, which I know I hate seeing as toss. And is super safe vs cheese.

Definitely going to try some 10pool eco on ladder, now.
Awaken my child, and embrace the glory that is your birthright. Know that I am the Overmind; the eternal will of the Swarm, and that you have been created to serve me.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-28 05:40:04
November 28 2010 05:35 GMT
#113
On November 28 2010 08:20 SlapMySalami wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU.



God that's so dumb when would you get gas for ling bling ZvZ or would you just get a 10 roach warren??? A 10 pool is hard countered by a 14 pool and I or any other zerg could easily show you that.

Heh? Vs 14pool I do 10pool and get gas around 16 for Roaches. I don't make lings right away... I get better economy than 14pool.

Have you tested this or are you just spewing these "facts" out of your you-know-what?

On November 28 2010 09:16 Pwere wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2010 08:20 SlapMySalami wrote:
On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU.



God that's so dumb when would you get gas for ling bling ZvZ or would you just get a 10 roach warren??? A 10 pool is hard countered by a 14 pool and I or any other zerg could easily show you that.
Only if you make 6 lings right away and send them to die or do absolutely nothing. If you only make a pair of lings and drone + deny OV scouting with early queen, you're ahead.

Iirc, 10trick -> 11pool was the best early pool build for larvae.

I actually make 3 drones after pool is done and only then do I make one pair of lings and I'm ahead in econ and safe vs 14pool because I have one spawn larvae-cycle more(and 2->4lings + queen defends easily vs 6 lings).

On November 28 2010 14:31 TheOvermind77 wrote:
BTW I just tested a 10pool variant against my standard 14pool/13extractor/15 hatch. My goal was to get two queens, and expo, two extractors, and to also throw down a roach warren around 23-25 supply.

10ov, 10 pool, 14 ext, 15 queen, 17 ling, 18 hatch
vs
14pool, 13 ext, 15 hatch, 15 queen, 17 ov 18 ling (A build I use often)

They came out nearly dead even (as in max 10 second difference) to 36 supply. Except the first one was totally 10 pool, which I know I hate seeing as toss. And is super safe vs cheese.

Definitely going to try some 10pool eco on ladder, now.
That's wrong, do 10pool 10double extractor trick 12ov 12queen, it's amazing(with perfect extractor trick ov finishes the same millisecond as your pool does, but you can just chill and place the pool at 225 or so minerals for a tiny(not even 5 minerals) bit better econ and more reliable timing).
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
TheOvermind77
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States923 Posts
November 28 2010 05:49 GMT
#114
That's wrong, do 10pool 10double extractor trick 12ov 12queen, it's amazing(with perfect extractor trick ov finishes the same millisecond as your pool does, but you can just chill and place the pool at 225 or so minerals for a tiny(not even 5 minerals) bit better econ and more reliable timing).


Let me give it a try vs the build I tried. Is everything else similar after that point?
Awaken my child, and embrace the glory that is your birthright. Know that I am the Overmind; the eternal will of the Swarm, and that you have been created to serve me.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-28 05:57:32
November 28 2010 05:55 GMT
#115
On November 28 2010 14:49 TheOvermind77 wrote:
Show nested quote +
That's wrong, do 10pool 10double extractor trick 12ov 12queen, it's amazing(with perfect extractor trick ov finishes the same millisecond as your pool does, but you can just chill and place the pool at 225 or so minerals for a tiny(not even 5 minerals) bit better econ and more reliable timing).


Let me give it a try vs the build I tried. Is everything else similar after that point?

I do 12queen 14drone 15drone 16extractor at earliest(ofc you can get this right after queen at 14 supply if needed but it won't be as smooth) etc, a pair of lings at 16-18 supply as needed. You can get the ov at 17 supply and it'll be fine, and expansion hatch at 18 if I expand, if not Roach warren or something.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
TheOvermind77
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States923 Posts
November 28 2010 06:01 GMT
#116
On November 28 2010 14:55 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2010 14:49 TheOvermind77 wrote:
That's wrong, do 10pool 10double extractor trick 12ov 12queen, it's amazing(with perfect extractor trick ov finishes the same millisecond as your pool does, but you can just chill and place the pool at 225 or so minerals for a tiny(not even 5 minerals) bit better econ and more reliable timing).


Let me give it a try vs the build I tried. Is everything else similar after that point?

I do 12queen 14drone 15drone 16extractor at earliest(ofc you can get this right after queen at 14 supply if needed but it won't be as smooth) etc, a pair of lings at 16-18 supply as needed. You can get the ov at 17 supply and it'll be fine, and expansion hatch at 18 if I expand, if not Roach warren or something.


Beautiful, just gave it a shot vs an AI while you were probably typing a reply.

I have a feeling this might change zerg quite a bit if it catches on. 10pool feinting gives some amazing options!
Awaken my child, and embrace the glory that is your birthright. Know that I am the Overmind; the eternal will of the Swarm, and that you have been created to serve me.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-28 06:11:05
November 28 2010 06:09 GMT
#117
Oh and worth mentioning: I always spawn larvae 2 times before placing a creep tumor, and if you make your second Queen at 24/26 when you get 150 minerals after getting an overlord after spawning larvae for the second time(more confusing pls!), your Queens are perfectly synced in energy and you'll get the overlord out just in time for the second spawn larvae.

It's accidentally an extremely smooth build. xD
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
kunstderfugue
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Mexico375 Posts
November 28 2010 06:12 GMT
#118
not a fan of testers, but i feel like the 10 pool eco-opening gives me more options. just an opinion though, im at gold...
Old lamps for new!
Hurkyl
Profile Joined October 2010
304 Posts
November 28 2010 06:19 GMT
#119
To swinging back in the other direction...

Some openings have the property that production capacity exceeds income. For example, if you start teching and pumping Zerglings, or maybe two-base Roaches. In these cases, sacrificing minerals for larvae is counter-productive; late* pools or Hatch first builds are more appropriate for these situations.


*: I am still skeptical that super-late pools are ever the right choice
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
November 28 2010 06:22 GMT
#120
On November 28 2010 15:01 TheOvermind77 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2010 14:55 Shikyo wrote:
On November 28 2010 14:49 TheOvermind77 wrote:
That's wrong, do 10pool 10double extractor trick 12ov 12queen, it's amazing(with perfect extractor trick ov finishes the same millisecond as your pool does, but you can just chill and place the pool at 225 or so minerals for a tiny(not even 5 minerals) bit better econ and more reliable timing).


Let me give it a try vs the build I tried. Is everything else similar after that point?

I do 12queen 14drone 15drone 16extractor at earliest(ofc you can get this right after queen at 14 supply if needed but it won't be as smooth) etc, a pair of lings at 16-18 supply as needed. You can get the ov at 17 supply and it'll be fine, and expansion hatch at 18 if I expand, if not Roach warren or something.


Beautiful, just gave it a shot vs an AI while you were probably typing a reply.

I have a feeling this might change zerg quite a bit if it catches on. 10pool feinting gives some amazing options!

Pff don't worry, it wont until a pro uses it regularly and even then no one would give me credit. ;O
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
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