EPTGiven that EC is currently English-only and not exactly accessible to Korean progamers, we may soon witness the unusual phenomenon of western build orders trickling down to Korean zergs.
[D] Is hatch first really more economical? - Page 7
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Voros
United States222 Posts
Given that EC is currently English-only and not exactly accessible to Korean progamers, we may soon witness the unusual phenomenon of western build orders trickling down to Korean zergs. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164559 I decided to test this just because the notion that hatch first wasn't more economical sounded absurd to me. Note: I ONLY tested the builds trying to maximize economy (building two queens as soon as possible, spending all energy on larva, all larva on drones and overs, maynarding etc.) so this says nothing about which is better strategy, safer, or creep friendly. I performed both builds as efficiently as possible multiple times and took the average of each after pausing each game at exactly 6:20. I picked this time because I noted in each build it was the moment with the least units in production, right after drone pops. Here are the results: 14 pool 15 hatch: Minerals: 590 Drones: 44 Overlords: 7 14 hatch 14 pool: Minerals: 735 Drones: 48 Overlords: 7 Edit: Added previous posters build 10 pool 16 hatch: Minerals: 640 Drones: 44 Overlords: 6 I know everyone likes to get caught up on technicalities, but my tests seem to confirm the assumption, that hatch first is more economical. The 10pool build actually did surprisingly well, perhaps we should focus on this fact more. If anyone wants to debate this or suggest a better method of testing, please do. | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
On November 28 2010 09:02 Hurkyl wrote: (P.S. a very late pool like 16 pool is not very representative of pool-first builds) 16 pool is in both of the builds in the OP and like I said, they aren't "late", they just feel late because the food supply is so much higher than you're used to. It's actually a few seconds earlier than the 14 pool in 15 hatch/14 pool. So 16 pool/15 hatch is basically a much safer version of 15 hatch/14 pool and is actually more economical. | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On November 28 2010 15:36 jdseemoreglass wrote: This topic has already been discussed and hatch first has repeatedly been shown to be more economical. Among the builds you quoted, the one with the most drones hat 48 drones at 6:20, from the Hatch first. Someone in this thread had that many in only 6:00 minutes with a 9 pool. (I had 47 at 6:00 with 11 pool) | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
Let's get some hard comparative data in a single post so we can finally reach some objective conclusions here. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On November 28 2010 15:36 jdseemoreglass wrote: This topic has already been discussed and hatch first has repeatedly been shown to be more economical. Whether it is better strategically I will not argue. Here are the previous tests I ran along with a link to the original thread for your viewing: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164559 None of your tests include the 16pool builds that OP has listed. This has been tested by posters within THIS thread, and it's been proven that you're actually wrong. Whether or not the most economical build is STRATEGICALLY viable, is a question of time and practice. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 28 2010 15:49 Nemireck wrote: None of your tests include the 16pool builds that OP has listed. This has been tested by posters within THIS thread, and it's been proven that you're actually wrong. Whether or not the most economical build is STRATEGICALLY viable, is a question of time and practice. So 14 hatch beats 14 pool, but 16 hatch doesn't beat 16 pool? We can delay these builds any way we like, it doesn't much change the fundamental economy here... We need actual side by side comparison which INCLUDE worker count, resource count, game clock time, overlords, and units in production before we can say anything has been proven. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 28 2010 15:36 jdseemoreglass wrote: This topic has already been discussed and hatch first has repeatedly been shown to be more economical. Whether it is better strategically I will not argue. Here are the previous tests I ran along with a link to the original thread for your viewing: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164559 Take into account your biased timing, the other builds have their round of larvae around 6:20 whereas with my 10pool build they actually spawn around 6:00 and then 6:40. I have at 6:03 46 drones also, so you did something terribly wrong. It should be 48 drones at 6:20 if you did it perfectly EDIT: Well meh actually that's not quite true, but still the timing works differently for that. =P Also its 18hatch... but whateves XD I like that fact that it's safe vs everything | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 9 Overlord M:104 G:0 16 SpawningPool M:202 G:0 15 Hatchery M:300 G:0 17 Extractor M:30 G:0 16 Overlord M:102 G:0 16 Queen M:155 G:0 18 Zergling M:108 G:0 20 +1 Drone on gas M:8 G:0 21 +1 Drone on gas M:103 G:8 21 +1 Drone on gas M:103 G:8 25 Overlord M:328 G  325 Queen M:228 G 327 Lair M:154 G:106 32 +1 Drone on minerals M:1 G:46 35 Overlord M:100 G:70 35 Zergling M:50 G:75 36 Zergling M:400 G:105 37 MetabolicBoost M:350 G:105 37 Zergling M:250 G:5 38 Overlord M:200 G:5 38 +1 Drone on gas M:100 G:5 39 Zergling M:50 G:5 40 Zergling M:54 G:10 44 Overlord M:143 G:40 48 Zergling M:134 G:69 49 Zergling M:84 G:69 50 Zergling M:240 G:88 51 Zergling M:190 G:88 53 Overlord M:113 G 053 Zergling M:102 G 754 Zergling M:52 G 7I'll add it to the OP as well | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On November 28 2010 08:05 Tachion wrote: This is by no means definite or fool proof, but just in my own personal testing of 14 hatch 15 pool vs 16 pool 16 hatch I had a 12 mineral difference at the 6 min mark after getting queens out from the 2nd hatch asap. no gas. Stopped at 30 supply both times after my main was fully saturated. the 10 pool 17/18 hatch was about 350 minerals behind those at the same point. Edit: just did it a 2nd time with cleaner build times and here were my results http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/14hatch15pool.jpg http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/16pool16hatch.jpg http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/10pool18hatch.jpg the hatch first opening seemed to be a clear winner. More minerals and more larva. It'd be cool if other people could go test it themselves to compare results. So far this is the only post in the entire thread that posted side-by-side comparisons and it shows hatch first to be favored. All the theorycrafting and build "optimizers" really don't count for much until we actually get some comparative evidence here. And for the last time, drone count is not the only criteria necessary here. Resource count, overlord count, game clock time, and units in production are all relevant as well. | ||
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Ryukku
Singapore545 Posts
On November 27 2010 22:06 UncleOwnage wrote: There's one factor nobody takes into consideration; minerals aren't yours until mined/secured. This of course, requires a bit of explanation. If you can't secure an extra base, even if it's your natural, you have no way of knowing if you'll ever get those minerals. Usually, your main is secure by default, only in rare cases will you not be able to mine your main out. This brings me to the main point: 20 drones spread on your main and natural is better than 20 drones on your main, because with 10 drones on your natural, you will mine minerals you haven't (completely) secured yet. This will leave your "secured" mineral patches in your main left with more minerals, giving you more time mining there. It's a sort of meta-game theory, in that some would argue "minerals mined are minerals mined, no matter where from", but I feel (and this is very crucial, this thinking is VERY subjective) that mining from any other base than your main as early as possible is beneficial. If you later have to give up your natural, you will then have more minerals in your main to fall back on. This theory might also be more important for races that can one/two-base efficiently (I'm protoss, for the record). i think this post is probably the most impt post of the thread so far. if everyone was playing greed mode, then fine. i completely agree with all the number cruchers, but the biggest benefit i see in hatch first is ure securing minerals mined that might not be yours in the later part of the game. | ||
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TheOvermind77
United States923 Posts
On November 28 2010 16:13 Ryukku wrote: i think this post is probably the most impt post of the thread so far. if everyone was playing greed mode, then fine. i completely agree with all the number cruchers, but the biggest benefit i see in hatch first is ure securing minerals mined that might not be yours in the later part of the game. This is a good point, but since you are expanding at....18 with the 10 pool....you still are securing these in what is considered the "early game". There is a good point that in higher leagues a late hatch can get blocked, but in lower leagues this rarely happens and your first pair of lings can usually deal with it. Also, the fear of 10pool to any toss or terran who doesn't know its an economy build is amazing, IMO. | ||
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Lomilar
United States130 Posts
On November 28 2010 15:25 Voros wrote: ... Given that EC is currently English-only and not exactly accessible to Korean progamers, we may soon witness the unusual phenomenon of western build orders trickling down to Korean zergs. :-x (pardon my off-topic) ![[image loading]](http://evolutionchamber.googlecode.com/files/eckorean.png) Coming soon. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 28 2010 16:13 Ryukku wrote: i think this post is probably the most impt post of the thread so far. if everyone was playing greed mode, then fine. i completely agree with all the number cruchers, but the biggest benefit i see in hatch first is ure securing minerals mined that might not be yours in the later part of the game. I'd count natural minerals as secured from the start since if you can't secure them, you pretty much lose anyway. That only holds true for other bases imo and that's why I sometimes take a third base on my opponent's side of the map | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
On November 27 2010 09:16 QuakerOats wrote: What if it's ZvT and the T is doing a 2rax build? On maps with a small choke building 1 or 2 sunkens shortly after the hatch finishes leaves you free to drone up on 2 bases and for the most part shuts down your opponent's ability to rush. If you pool first you won't be able to have a sunk in time, so you won't be able to expo for a while, and there's no way that massing lings off one base to defend is better than having the early hatch and sunkens. Well, that is easy. You scout the 2 rax and build accordingly. You 9/10 times should have seen his base by the 10 food mark easily, just scout with your 9th drones. If you see 2 rax play just (obviously harrass the workers and delay those minerals for as long as possible) and build the hatch first, or doing what he said first is build creep tumors... You can get creep tumors down to your expo in almost any map before he attacks, maybe except neighbour positions in delta quad. Anything a terran can do can be scouted, (take it from me as I am a terran) if there bunker rush you can scout it and delay where he places the bunker longenough for you to get a spine down at your NEAREST creep, if you don't have creep by your natural that should be ok, let him camp outside your base. Rush to lair tech and get ovie drops with banelings  But in all seriousness if a successful bunker rush does come just get roaches, they make quick work of bunkers especially if you have a bunch of them, then just make a large push.Its not so much what if, its more of a what-can-I-do. With a hatch first you get the economic advantage (slightly) also it can scare the opponent into doing rash things. With a spawning pool first you get an earlier queen and speedlings and the ability to protect your base with crawlers and zerglings and allows for an earlier lair. Really the numbers are so close that it completely depends on what you scout. | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On November 28 2010 16:04 jdseemoreglass wrote: So far this is the only post in the entire thread that posted side-by-side comparisons and it shows hatch first to be favored. All the theorycrafting and build "optimizers" really don't count for much until we actually get some comparative evidence here. And for the last time, drone count is not the only criteria necessary here. Resource count, overlord count, game clock time, and units in production are all relevant as well. You seem to have missed several posts in this thread, including http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=7098253 and its follow-ups http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=7098488 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=7098587 | ||
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Voros
United States222 Posts
Pretty awesome. Thanks for the continued updates. | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
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pheno
Germany33 Posts
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