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On November 28 2010 00:40 Throat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU. When do you put down your hatch in this build?
10pool 9drone 10 double extractor trick 12ov, overlord finishes just as pool finishes, get a Queen and 1 ling if needed, otherwise drones until needed.
at 17/18 get ov, then a drone, hatch at 18. If I want a bit faster gas I go to 18/18 and then put extractor down, then hatch, then ov.
This build is so good, and seems like everyone at 1500-2200 range thinks it's a rush and builds bunkers / cannons and you get way ahead. Oh, and it's safe vs everything.
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On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU.
replay or it didn't happen?
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This reminds me of back before terrans could do rax before depot, people were going early rax to counter any rushes, but they made up for it economically because of mules. Hatch first to me doesn't make sense, an early pool is similar to an early rax, and the queen will make up for the economic loss.
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Ok, there is a lot of discussion about the possible benefits of hatch first (e.g. creep, avoiding the possibility of getting blocked, etc). However, I do believe that pros hatch first because they believe that it gives them the best economy. The proof of this is the ZvZ matchup. If pool first is better economy, why do many zergs 14 hatch?
If the OP is right, the pros are doing it wrong then?
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On November 27 2010 15:13 denzelz wrote:
Okay look. When you go pool first and say that you will have the same amount of larva as a hatch first build, you are not taking into account the time it takes for a queen to build. When you go hatch first (15 hatch 14 pool), you would have saved up enough minerals to build 4 lings + 2 queens right when Pool finishes. You get to have two queens in the time that it takes to build one queen if you only had 1 hatch all the while you get to benefit from the additional larvas from the expo hatch.
Hatch first is more economical and it will give you more larva. There is NO debate about this. The only debate is when and how to implement a hatch first build.
You're right, there is no debate -- it's been pretty much conclusively proven that pool first two-hatch builds easily produce more larvae than hatch-first builds.
You're theory-crafting is bad. You are ignoring things like
- The hatchery takes much longer to build than a queen, and produces less larvae
- Pool first builds get earlier queens
and most importantly of all, you are ignoring the hard facts derived from actually executing build orders in the game.
And why 15 hatch 14 pool instead of 14 hatch 15 pool or 14 hatch 14 pool? 
Incidentally, this is why I dislike late pool first builds (14 pool or, shudder, 16 pool) -- by delaying the Spawning Pool so long, you throw away much of the benefit you could get from a pool first build. I am quite unsurprised to find that the 16 pool 17 hatch makes both the pool and hatchery far too late to outproduce a more reasonable build, even if the more reasonable one is hatch first.
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On November 27 2010 18:58 icezar wrote:From my tests the build that gets you the fastest minerals is: http://sc2calc.org/build_order/10 Extractor trick 11 Overlord 14 spawning Pool 16 Hatchery > transfer 3 16 queen > spawn larvae [auto] 18 Overlord 21 queen > spawn larvae [auto] 23 Overlord 35 Drone 5:20 checkpoint I could not find any better build that would mine you more minerals until you have 2 base and 32 drones up. This was pretty easy to find, now the problem is if you take gas into account... i am lost Now i am debating how i should defend this: speedlings - i need 100Gas and is larva intensive Roach- i need Roach Warren fast so the roach have time to pop but is uses fewer larvae and i need the gas later Spines - i delay the gas, also not larvae intensive but have a long build time and sacrifice drones also immobile.
Close to what EVO Chamber gives. If you just let evo chamber run and you say you just want drones and two hatches it says 13 pool 16 hatch.
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Now, I do recall a certain few early poke builds that allow a player to run into a zerg base and do some quick damage. In this case, hatch vs queen has a different factor altogether.
The queen has significantly less HP than a hatch, it's entirely plausible that you may get the queen sniped accidentally. That would be bad.
Hatch first, on the other hand, winds up being safer here due to the fact that small pokes can't really kill a hatch off before you manage to get up some defenses
Doesn't happen all the time, but still something to consider, especially depending on how good or bad your unit control is.
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On November 27 2010 20:35 Cambam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 15:13 denzelz wrote:
Okay look. When you go pool first and say that you will have the same amount of larva as a hatch first build, you are not taking into account the time it takes for a queen to build. When you go hatch first (15 hatch 14 pool), you would have saved up enough minerals to build 4 lings + 2 queens right when Pool finishes. You get to have two queens in the time that it takes to build one queen if you only had 1 hatch all the while you get to benefit from the additional larvas from the expo hatch.
Hatch first is more economical and it will give you more larva. There is NO debate about this. The only debate is when and how to implement a hatch first build. It is debatable, that's the point of this thread. 15 hatch/14 pool cuts more early drones, which slows down later drones.
No it doesn't. Zerg produce Drones from Larvae, not from a town hall like Protoss and Terran.
A couple drones are delayed, but they are not eliminated from the build order. The delay has absolutely no effect on when later* drones hatch. (unless, of course, you delay so much that your Hatchery idles with 3 larvae, but 14 hatch 15 pool doesn't, and 15 hatch 14 pool doesn't seem to either)
*: I'm, of course, referring only to the drones made from your primary hatch and before Spawn Larvae comes into play.
And you can't support the larva off 2 queens + 2 hatch that fast (though the creep tumors and defensive capabilities are definitely worth something).
Yes you can. It only takes 24-25 drones on minerals for constant 2 hatch 2 queen Drone / Zergling production. You can* nearly have that by the time your Queens hatch, and the minerals you bank while waiting for the Queens to pop easily cover the deficit.
*: Whether you should have that is, of course, another question entirely.
However, getting two queens quickly is a big investment, 300 minerals as opposed to 150. That's 3 drones and 120 minerals per minute your missing out on early game.
No it isn't. You bank a lot of money while waiting for the Hatchery and Pool to finish. You don't have the Larvae to spend those 150 minerals on Drones.
This thread is about the pros and cons of 15 hatch/14 pool and 16 pool/15 hatch.
The original question was if Hatch first is more economical than Pool first. For that question, it is relevant what benefits an early pool first build offers.
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On November 28 2010 01:54 shutdown_exploded wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU. replay or it didn't happen?
LOL Actually it was a 5gate wtf o_O I thought it was 3-gate, no wonder it was such a strong attack. But yeah :
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169353
Feels soooo strong.
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On November 28 2010 03:19 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2010 01:54 shutdown_exploded wrote:On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU. replay or it didn't happen? LOL Actually it was a 5gate wtf o_O I thought it was 3-gate, no wonder it was such a strong attack. But yeah : http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169353Feels soooo strong.
Nothing against your play, but I'm watching this protoss go forge gate cannon in-base and then chrono his gate and not build anything from it.
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If hatch first wasn't better pros wouldn't be doing it.
They get paid for playing, don't you think they would know if pool first was better?
I like to go hatch first whenever I can, and it feels much stronger.
I am to lazy to check, but does going pool first give you the larvae before hatch first, you have to take into account the fact that your pool needs to finish then your queen then the larvae need to pop.
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On November 28 2010 03:28 Darthturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2010 03:19 Shikyo wrote:On November 28 2010 01:54 shutdown_exploded wrote:On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU. replay or it didn't happen? LOL Actually it was a 5gate wtf o_O I thought it was 3-gate, no wonder it was such a strong attack. But yeah : http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169353Feels soooo strong. Nothing against your play, but I'm watching this protoss go forge gate cannon in-base and then chrono his gate and not build anything from it.
2100 diamonds are terrible yeah T_T Need to play more, 400 bonus pool -_-
On November 28 2010 03:55 Ksyper wrote:
If hatch first wasn't better pros wouldn't be doing it.
They get paid for playing, don't you think they would know if pool first was better?
I like to go hatch first whenever I can, and it feels much stronger.
I am to lazy to check, but does going pool first give you the larvae before hatch first, you have to take into account the fact that your pool needs to finish then your queen then the larvae need to pop.
They do it for the creep and to avoid blocks, not for econ. Also koreans still do 10ov or 10ov ex trick, so that's a bad argument
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Hatch first isnt economical until you have a certain number of dones but its irelevant, the biggest bonus of having an early hatch is having more larvae.
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On November 28 2010 03:55 Ksyper wrote:
If hatch first wasn't better pros wouldn't be doing it.
They get paid for playing, don't you think they would know if pool first was better?
I'm pretty sure one can be professional without being an analyst.Besides, pros also Pool first. 
I am to lazy to check, but does going pool first give you the larvae before hatch first, you have to take into account the fact that your pool needs to finish then your queen then the larvae need to pop.
I can't figure out what you're trying to say. But people have accounted for many things; even if you don't want to do tests yourself, you could at least read what tests others have done and what the results were....
On November 28 2010 03:59 Reptaur wrote:
Hatch first isnt economical until you have a certain number of dones but its irelevant, the biggest bonus of having an early hatch is having more larvae.
It would be nice if you read what people have done too. SC2 is a different game than BW; this statement is simply not true, because of the effect of Queens. The early Hatch only gets more larvae when compared to a pool first build that either idles with 3 larvae a lot, or puts off the second hatchery until very late. (Or, I suppose, gets the pool very late and/or doesn't use the Queen for spawning larva)
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On November 28 2010 03:07 Hurkyl wrote:Yes you can. It only takes 24-25 drones on minerals for constant 2 hatch 2 queen Drone / Zergling production. You can* nearly have that by the time your Queens hatch, and the minerals you bank while waiting for the Queens to pop easily cover the deficit.
*: Whether you should have that is, of course, another question entirely. Exact number is 27 (max 16 on one hatch, constant overlord production - without overlords its 24). Fastest way to get there (with researching metabolic boost if you want it to be ready when you start producing lings) is 11 overpool, 12extractor, 15 queen, 18meta + hatch, 18 overlord, 18trick
If you take drones off gas after mining 100 everything is ready after exactly 5 minutes. After that it's 1 Zergling every 2 seconds or 1 Drone every 4 seconds.
Just to throw it into the room. I always liked the 11 Overpool for starting.
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i am now a 10 pool/17 hatch convert. won 4 in a row against ~2000 diamond. just dominated.
for the first time i beat a 15 nexus without early roach/ling pressure. this is how i want to play zerg. 17 hatch, and 25 hatch at a third. all three were saturated before he had sent one unit to my base. he brought 3 phoenix and 3 void ray. i had 6 hydras already, and 10 more producing. send the survivors + early lings i had, + ROACHES i rallied. my econ was so good, + larva on three hatches... i could pump ~20 roaches twice. the first wave +hydras took out the nat. the second wave + survivors of the first pushed into his main for the gg.
beat a marine/tank terran. stomped him, he was like wtf after each battle. my army was already rolling by the time he was ready to push, 12 mutas, 20 banelings, 40 lings.
the quicker saturation makes a world of difference in getting your early econ going. feels so much better then 14 hatch. yesterday i couldnt win 14 hatching. today i cant lose 10 pooling. so counterintuitive but i highly recommened trying it.
the one problem is the marine+scv rushes. the timing can be off for having a spine rdy at ur nat. their whole goal is to deny that expansion. maybe i should focus on saturating my main.defending my ramp, and then expanding when he is done sending marines. defending my ramp with spines+lings should completely shut down marine+scv rushes. i will have enough larva to make lings and get a nice drone count going. need to explore this further. but against normal play/ or any toss i will 10 pool.
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On November 28 2010 06:06 Vaporized wrote:
i am now a 10 pool/17 hatch convert. won 4 in a row against ~2000 diamond. just dominated.
for the first time i beat a 15 nexus without early roach/ling pressure. this is how i want to play zerg. 17 hatch, and 25 hatch at a third. all three were saturated before he had sent one unit to my base. he brought 3 phoenix and 3 void ray. i had 6 hydras already, and 10 more producing. send the survivors + early lings i had, + ROACHES i rallied. my econ was so good, + larva on three hatches... i could pump ~20 roaches twice. the first wave +hydras took out the nat. the second wave + survivors of the first pushed into his main for the gg.
beat a marine/tank terran. stomped him, he was like wtf after each battle. my army was already rolling by the time he was ready to push, 12 mutas, 20 banelings, 40 lings.
the quicker saturation makes a world of difference in getting your early econ going. feels so much better then 14 hatch. yesterday i couldnt win 14 hatching. today i cant lose 10 pooling. so counterintuitive but i highly recommened trying it.
the one problem is the marine+scv rushes. the timing can be off for having a spine rdy at ur nat. their whole goal is to deny that expansion. maybe i should focus on saturating my main.defending my ramp, and then expanding when he is done sending marines. defending my ramp with spines+lings should completely shut down marine+scv rushes. i will have enough larva to make lings and get a nice drone count going. need to explore this further. but against normal play/ or any toss i will 10 pool.
i'd like those replay if you don't mind =)
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On November 28 2010 00:20 Shikyo wrote:
Wow, I just did an economic 10pool and DESTROYED some 2150 point diamond Protoss player who was doing 3gate expand. There's 0 possibility of your hatch getting blocked, you can just make 6 lings if needed vs a nexus-first or something, and you will have same economy as a 16hatch. Yep, my new standard ladder build in every MU.
I do a similar build all the time. Actually in all match ups and almost on every map. Its so freaking versatile and strong.
pros
1, You get a really fast queen so you keep up economicly if you chose to drone
2, You have the option to rush your opponent if he does a build that's sux against fast lings.
3, You get 1 pair of lings extremely fast to deny scouting and prevent them from blocking your exp
4, Most players will assume you are rushing them, putting up unnecessary defences when you are actually droning hardcore with your fast queen
cons
1, A little bit less economic then 14 ppol but not much (you will have less minerals but more larva)
2, It really hurts your economy if you gas to early to get fast speed. The option if necesary is still there thou
3, A good player that actually counts your larva/eggs (not only looking at your pool timing) will not be fooled thinking you are rushing when you are not
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a few points i think might seem important enough to mention:
1. are people considering a certain point where idle larva are beneficial? (many people seem to think you must use each larva as it spawns... which becomes very dangerous at a certain point if done without perfect scouting)
2. the hatchery spreads out the zerg's base faster, which helps avoid bunker or canon contains to delay the hatch for when you'd actually want to expand
3. time of double queen production possibility.
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EPT
