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Slayer91
Ireland23464 Posts
On November 27 2010 09:36 kineSiS- wrote: 1:1 Ratio of Minerals to Drones is always the most efficient. This was in BW. In sc2, Only the very fast patches have even a minor wait time with 2 drones mining on a patch per one. When you hit 16 there is no "wandering" effect so virtually 0 drop in efficiency, such that maynarding would be a net mineral loss. | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
On November 27 2010 10:34 Tachion wrote: Is there a reason for such a late pool? You can do 14 pool 15 hatch without wasting any larva or cutting drones. You have to cut drones to do a 14 pool. Cutting drones means interrupting constant drone production to save up for a structure. With a 16 pool, you never stop making drones and don't have to wait around to save up 200 minerals, you just have it after you make the 16th drone. | ||
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Enyalus
United States135 Posts
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Destiny
United States280 Posts
On November 27 2010 09:51 MoreFasho wrote: What are you talking about? losing your nat to a 4gate would occur in the early to midgame, not early early game. Whether or not the creep is spread early will have absolutely ZERO bearing on whether or not you're able to save the hatchery. Besides, if the toss is applying super early pressure that's forcing you to cancel (or lose) your expansion, he's not doing 4gate, he's opening with a 2gate or some sort of proxy.You're actually totally wrong. Look at 4-gate timing for protoss. You won't have had creep up for long enough to lay a tumor and expand from it if you expand at 20 food, but you will if you go 14/16 or hatch first. This is actually a huge deal against a 4-gate as if you lose your natural against a 4-gate you lose the game. Not saying a speedling expand can't hold, but its' much easier if you can spread your creep. Also, "double queen" with hatch first is stupid, with pool first, your first queen comes out earlier and your second queen will arrive shortly thereafter, you get two queens with pool first at about the same time as with hatch first. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
16 pool 17 hatch 16 overlord 16 queen 21 gas is indeed the best ideal super power opening. However hatch at 17 is so delayed if your opponent scouts after depo/pylon he should be able to block an attempt at expanding with his worker. 15 hatch works in all but close positions. 15 hatch cant be denied unless close positions (and you scout that so its np) and the 14 gas 14 pool 20-22 expand has lings out to repel any attempt at denies aswell as early harass because of the fast speed. By all means try to do the build in ladder, it can definately work. ima try it some more in the build order tester. to get used to it but the above points are why these are the openings you see. | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On November 27 2010 10:41 Cambam wrote:You have to cut drones to do a 14 pool. Cutting drones means interrupting constant drone production to save up for a structure. With a 16 pool, you never stop making drones and don't have to wait around to save up 200 minerals, you just have it after you make the 16th drone. You don't even have to cut drones for a 12 pool, let alone a 14 pool. The larvae mechanic let's you delay a drone without actually cutting it. | ||
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rocketboy77
171 Posts
On November 27 2010 09:34 falstag wrote: Okay hatch takes 100 secs to build, drone takes 25. Larva spawn every 15. Lets say we time this perfectly and drone 21 pops when the hatch finishs. Before we start the hatch we drop 2 gas. 100 secs - 25 for the 21st drone = 75sec. 15 secs per larva = 5 larva when the hatch is building. so when the hatch first begins you need 16 drones, or 17 before the hatch begins. 17 hatch seems really late for a hatch first build. A Drone takes 17 seconds to morph. | ||
dementrio
678 Posts
if you're interested the build evochamber gave is: 10pool 10overlord 10extractor trick 12queen | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
On November 27 2010 11:21 Hurkyl wrote: You don't even have to cut drones for a 12 pool, let alone a 14 pool. The larvae mechanic let's you delay a drone without actually cutting it. ... That's what cutting means. Obviously you eventually build the drone later in the game, but you don't build it as soon as you possibly could in order to get the spawning pool at 12. If you're saying you can get a 12/14 pool without letting your larva count reach 3 and thus become wasteful, that may be true (not sure), but even so, it's still worse for your economy than not cutting (delaying) drones at all. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On November 27 2010 11:39 Cambam wrote: ... That's what cutting means. Obviously you eventually build the drone later in the game, but you don't build it as soon as you possibly could in order to get the spawning pool at 12. If you're saying you can get a 12/14 pool without letting your larva count reach 3 and thus become wasteful, that may be true (not sure), but even so, it's still worse for your economy than not cutting (delaying) drones at all. Is that actually worse for your economy though? Let's say you delay making a drone for 10 seconds to get your 14 pool up, but then you get your queen out sooner, and suddenly you have 4 drones making after larva inject that much faster than a later pool. Doesn't delaying that first drone make up for it with a faster queen? | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On November 27 2010 11:39 Cambam wrote: ... That's what cutting means. Obviously you eventually build the drone later in the game, but you don't build it as soon as you possibly could in order to get the spawning pool at 12. If you're saying you can get a 12/14 pool without letting your larva count reach 3 and thus become wasteful, that may be true (not sure), but even so, it's still worse for your economy than not cutting (delaying) drones at all. In general, you may as well build your pool as late as humanly possible (with good scouting) without risking getting run over, as you'll have more time to mine with that drone if nothing else. The idea that pool first could be more economically sound than hatch first is very foreign to me, but I'll try it out, in ZvT at least, since Terran's are loving early aggression nowadays. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
On November 27 2010 09:02 Cambam wrote: I agree with you, but I said 21 food, not 21 drones. 21 food would be 1 queen, 2 zerglings and 18 drones. If you have an extractor, that leaves only 15 drones on minerals. So if you start your hatch at 21, it will finish around the time you're at 26 food (20 drones on minerals), right on time to be efficient. Nah, you'll want to be pulling drones off gas once you have 100 for zergling speed. Putting down the hatch at 21 is far, far too late to maximise mining efficiency (that's not your only goal of course). | ||
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
If you're saying you can get a 12/14 pool without letting your larva count reach 3 and thus become wasteful, that may be true (not sure), but even so, it's still worse for your economy than not cutting (delaying) drones at all. No, it's merely different for your economy. When you build the Spawning Pool is a trade-off.
I'm having great difficulty imagining any case where 20 extra minerals at that point in the game could be worth sacrificing a not much later larva. (And I think you don't even get that much by choosing 16 pool over 14 pool) | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
On November 27 2010 11:46 Tachion wrote: Is that actually worse for your economy though? Let's say you delay making a drone for 10 seconds to get your 14 pool up, but then you get your queen out sooner, and suddenly you have 4 drones making after larva inject that much faster than a later pool. Doesn't delaying that first drone make up for it with a faster queen? On November 27 2010 11:50 Dromar wrote: In general, you may as well build your pool as late as humanly possible (with good scouting) without risking getting run over, as you'll have more time to mine with that drone if nothing else. I think these are both good points and are related. However, this is where it's helpful to have a genetic algorithm that plays millions of games to help determine which is optimal. I too thought that maybe the BO optimizer would do something kooky like 14 hatch/20 pool if you didn't ask it to make any zerglings, but it doesn't. Even if you're only going drones, it's better to get a spawning pool at some point for queens. And conversely, getting a queen too early both hurts your early economy and you can't use all the larva produced from the first spit right away. So this 16 pool/15 hatch build is the sweet spot between the two extremes. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
But there is more to playing zerg than just economy. There is defending early aggression, pylon walls, bunker walls, engineering bay blocks, and so on. These are all important reasons to adjust your build order. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 27 2010 12:00 Hurkyl wrote: No, it's merely different for your economy. When you build the Spawning Pool is a trade-off.
I'm having great difficulty imagining any case where 20 extra minerals at that point in the game could be worth sacrificing a not much later larva. (And I think you don't even get that much by choosing 16 pool over 14 pool) Actually, if you do 14pool you won't have 150 min for the Queen right away assuming you did expand at around 16, so you won't get the Queen that much faster. You also lose the mining time from the drone building the pool as well as having slower consecutive drones. ALSO, with 14pool 16hatch, you will have 3 larvae sitting around for a LONG LONG TIME, since you can't make anything after the hatch because you must save for the Queen asap. You're going to waste about 2 full larvae like that. In theory you're correct, in practice it doesn't work like that. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
On November 27 2010 12:12 Shikyo wrote: Actually, if you do 14pool you won't have 150 min for the Queen right away assuming you did expand at around 16, so you won't get the Queen that much faster. You also lose the mining time from the drone building the pool as well as having slower consecutive drones. ALSO, with 14pool 16hatch, you will have 3 larvae sitting around for a LONG LONG TIME, since you can't make anything after the hatch because you must save for the Queen asap. You're going to waste about 2 full larvae like that. In theory you're correct, in practice it doesn't work like that. you wont stay on 3 larvae for a long long time. if at all, you stay at 3 larvae for like barely a second. | ||
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Bob300
United States505 Posts
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On November 27 2010 12:12 Shikyo wrote:Actually, if you do 14pool you won't have 150 min for the Queen right away assuming you did expand at around 16, so you won't get the Queen that much faster. You also lose the mining time from the drone building the pool as well as having slower consecutive drones. ALSO, with 14pool 16hatch, you will have 3 larvae sitting around for a LONG LONG TIME, since you can't make anything after the hatch because you must save for the Queen asap. You're going to waste about 2 full larvae like that. In theory you're correct, in practice it doesn't work like that. I just did a test, and this doesn't seem to even resemble reality. My comments aren't just theory -- they are the analysis of real world tests. | ||
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