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Hey guys,
I thought I might inquire about things such as the terran mass helion (with blueflame) into mass banshees while taking their natural. This "harass heavy" build has been giving me a lot of trouble as I cannot seem to continue on with my build. What happens is eventually they go helion, marine, thor, and banshees, and I can't seem to have the unit composition or economy to deal with the next big push.
They wait until they get 4 helions to push out, pretty much the critical mass, and then they do the same for the banshees, so I cant even make queens fast enough.
What...
Do...
I...
Do?!
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 04:14 Jtn wrote:
Hey guys, I'm just wondering what your preferences for hotkeys are, more specifically army control (as I know people have their own queen/hatchery preferences).
I'm having trouble keeping consistent groupings game per game. Like I'll have lings as 1 and blings as 2 early game, but later on if I switch to roaches, I'll have them on 3, but when I transition, I'll have them back on 1 or some crazy shit and have mutas on 3. I DUNNO HELP
Hotkeys are something you have to learn as you go. You have to be able to adjust them on the fly. The most important thing is that you keep your banelings on a seperate hotkey and simply move them. If you put all your other units on 1 and 3 you will be able to flank with both of them and just move 2 (banelings) into his army. Its what i do! I use, 5 6 7 though! But using 1-3 works well, and its all about what your comfortable with.
@KrazDel
There is no real way to be equal or ahead if you lose your expansion to cannons. The best way to defend it from happening is with a drone blocking your ramp and a drone chasing the probe. However if you do lose your hatchery you'll have to clear that out generally with either roaches or banelings. At that point you can either All-In or fake all in and expand. I generally don't recommend going 14 hatchery vs. protoss!
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On November 24 2010 04:23 dreamend wrote:
Do you feel Ultralisks are worthwhile in ZvP? I made a thread on this but basically I find that Protoss will easily switch to an Immortal-orientated army as you head to UltraLing and so you're better off just massing HydraLing
Well, it can be good depending upon the Protoss composition. Lets say for instance they are very Colossus heavy with their stalker zeal sentry. By adding in a few Ultralisks you can stop the Colossus production and force a composition more favorable to your hydra ling Broodlord.
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When doing the Kyrix 2 base bust in ZvT, how do you decide whether to go ahead and attack or to save your army. Also, against what Terran openings would you prefer a normal Lair opening and in which situations are the Kyrix style more suitable?
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In ZvZ, when are you scouting? How do you deal with the 6/7pool all-in builds? Do you just plan on doing a 12 pool, and then extend that upon scouting to 14pool or so?
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Is it possible to defend well performed 4-gate push without making roaches?
I really like muta+ling vs protoss and I heard Incontrol saying in some recorded gosucoaching lesson that you don't want to make roaches if you go muta due to wasting gas.
But mass lings and about 4 crawlers often don't work against 4-gate for me.
Should I cancel spire and go roaches if I scout it or is it possible to defend it with 5-8 crawlers and maybe evolution chamber wall off?
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On November 24 2010 03:38 jAck_sc2 wrote:
I've read already 100 thread about ZvZ, but I still dont get to the breakthrough. ZvT and ZvP seems so simple to me and I usually understand where I fucked up after watching the replay of a lost match. But for ZvZ it seems that I simply don't understand what I have to pay attention for.
Do you got some general tips on what to focus in ZvZ? What are the most important aspects about ZvZ?
It was mentioned before, that it is important to be ahead in economy. But how the hell can I know if I'm leading or not? How do I judge when it's a good moment to produce drones? And are we talking about squeezing out 1-2 drones or like a few injections worth of drones?
I have had a lot of success with hatch before pool on certain maps. The only counter to this is fast mass lings/blings. If they go roach, you can defend. If they tech up, you have an extra expo!
Sometimes I get the other hatch to throw them off. I'll start to mass speedlings and then run them into their base before they get mass roach or enough blings to counter.
Roach vs. roach is usually how it ends up going down, so upgrades are key. Squeeze out a drone or two whenever you can. Lots of people like to go mass roach, so a tech switch to muta can be great.
Wait for him to get his third, then go in and kill.
Don't play the game as if you are trying to survive, play the game as if you are a scary mother fucker that's going to tear up anyone who gets in your way.
Sorry for the language.
gg
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 04:37 Urth wrote:
Do you guys feel that hatch first ZvZ is viable? On what maps? What openers do you guys usually do for ZvZ.
If the ops open roaches, and you open hatch first, how do you respond?
I've answered this question a little before so I suppose I should put this on the original OP. Its viable on certain maps. Its not viable on Scrap Station. Correct general open build orders include 14 gas 14 pool, into roaches, banelings or speedlings. Every once in a while it can pay to do a 7 pool on an unsuspecting opponent. You repsond vs. the roaches with going 2 base pure speedlings with a few spinecrawlers vs. a 1 hatch roach build. (At least at the start until they reach critical roach mass, then u need ur own roaches!)
@Resilve
If you can't hold early game perhaps your build order isn't quite right. Check out what I put as a general ZvP build in my old ZvP guide. Other starting build orders that work are even in this FAQ segment. I feel like getting zergling speed and enough zerglings and queens will help u hold off zealot stalker early game.
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Sheth it's like you read my mind. I was going to ask you a few of these questions  Thanks and see ya online!
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United States7166 Posts
On November 24 2010 03:32 me_viet wrote:
1. What is the best response to a FE Protoss going double stargate;
1a. only seeing it after spire is halfway complete by an overseer morphed immediately after lair finished.
1b. scouting it with your first batch of mutas (6-7)
2. When is a good time to sac an overlord against T assuming you only see a naked rax and 3-4 marines at ramp?
3. Opening FE 2 base Mutas on close spawns (9-12 or 3-6) leaves you vulnerable to some sort of strong ground push but if you don't, you risk getting dropped on ledge with thors/marines/scvs, soooooo what are some things you need to do in order to force the game into a mid game that doesn't put you massively behind?
1. The thing to remember whenever protoss invests into a large number of phoenixes is the heavy investment it is, greatly reducing the strength of their ground army. Really what their goal is and what they're capable of is gaining air control, harassing, playing defensive usually while teching up to colossus. This means you should feel relatively safe from any big push coming for a length of time, of course you can't be TOO greedy as his phoenixes will notice if you have only a tiny amount of ground defense and he can take his army (really this depended on how fast he went for phoenix) and go kill you, especially with the graviton beam support.
1a. In this specific circumstance, I would cancel the spire immediately. This would leave you around 400-500ish gas depending on your build's timings. Build a hydra den and infestation pit right away, leaving you 200-300 gas, so by the time your den finishes you leaving you about 500-600 gas (depending on your 4th gas timing). Make an infestor and some hydras, but avoid getting hydra range for now as you can't afford it, and you only want like 1 infestor so don't get energy upgrade. Drone up and add a few more hydras so you have enough to defend your main + natural, and be very careful to keep your infestor protected as it can be easily picked off by his phoenixes. It goes without saying your main and natural must be connected with creep, and after you have a decent amount of hydras gathered and are ready to fungal his phoenixes, lead with fungal and send hydras on them, just be careful not to run your infestor in attack move as well or it'll be graviton'd even while theyre fungal'd. You should be able to pick off several phoenixes, especially if you micro, even if you dont have hydra range yet. You should be going for a roach/hydra combination with upgrades, and taking a 3rd base. If he's going 2 stargate phoenix he is somewhat concerned about a hydra attack, depending on the map, and it would be ideal to do what you can to threaten, forcing cannons/extra defense. On delta quadrant it's very easy for them to just hold their ramp with force field if they only took their back expo, so this threat doesnt exist and you should focus on taking a 3rd quickly. You should eventually be going towards corruptor if they went heavy colossi. Scouting their tech is tough but necessary, use changelings and send overseers/overlords when you know phoenixes are not nearby to pick them off.
as for the concern about canceling, well canceling spire returns you 150/150, a net loss of 50/50, but the return of resources is too important right now, even if you ended up losing some resources for 'nothing.' Another thing to note is as your spire is only half done it has 50 seconds still to finish building. A hydra den takes 40 seconds to build so it's still going to finish faster, and hydras build faster than corruptors. if you went corruptor/infestor instead that's easier to defend the phoenix harass but much useless vs ground army and requires you to build more ground defense than you woudl have with hydras, and also leaves him completely unconcerned about an attack, and can more freely move around the map with his ground army.
1b. I would not like being put in this situation to be honest, so I'd make sure 1a happens instead. But if it did happen for whatever reason. I would go for an infestation pit right away, start +1 air attack if I haven't yet, and play defensive while trying to sneak expos. Once again keep infestor protected as it gains energy, and you wait till you have a large enough enough mutalisk force compared to his phoenix where you can decidedly win the straight air to air battle (for some reference, 16-17 mutas with a good fungal will win vs 10 phoenixes), and fungal them to make sure they dont flee. It seems very key to try and fungal as many phoenixes as possible, ideally right before they engage your mutas, so the phoenixes in the back that are fungaled cannot attack back. If however they saw the infestor/infestor pit they may know this and avoid flying phoenixes into danger. But that gives you map control, and you can continue with your original plan of ling/muta/spine, trying to outexpand him.
Perhaps a better response however would be to switch to hydras right away, it does feel safer and more stable, as trying to outmuscle phoenixes with mutas is dangerous/tough. Perhaps someone with more muta opening experience can enlighten us
2. This is a hard question to answer as it really really depends on what build you opened and the map as well, but if your build leaves you concerned about banshees, then around the I think around 6:30 ish mark is when you want to spot for banshees, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. If you went for the most normal speedling into lair build, it's around halfway or a little past halfway of the lair build time. If you're concerned about some kind of crazy marine allin and he doesn't have marines on the edge of his base, I'd send it in around 4:00 or so to check for extra barracks, if you see even one extra hidden one I'd just instantly make a baneling nest to be safe.
3. This is only applicable to Lost Temple. I actually think tank/thor drop is really easy to stop, easier than many other openers to deal with, but that came with lots of experience dealing with it. Part of the reason why I think so many zergs even pro zergs struggle is cus they don't abandon their plan of going early spire. You can pretty much always tell if they're going for this based on what you see at the ramp + if they took 2 gas or not. Send an overlord in about halfway while lair is building if you weren't sure, and you should have had an overlord above their main mineral ledge as well for additional scouting (focus on getting it there very early in the game). Put up 3 spines hugging your natural cliff, with 1-2 overlords placed carefully to spot for them but not too far onto the ledge. Go for roaches and drop, avoid taking the gas closest to the cliff, and if you have minerals to spare take another base at a far away main base. Use spines unburrow/burrow to stall for drop, every time the tank is sieging out of range of your spines, unburrow and move. as soon as it moves up to attack hatch, root them below the cliff, repeat this to stall time. If they went thor instead, spines do fairly well vs thor and has the same range, and anytime the thor wants to attack the hatchery it will be well in range for many of your roaches. Get roach speed and roach burrow upgrades and just go counterattack as soon as you built a huge enough army and feel safe enough to defend your expo hatch (dont worry too much about this, you can always sac the natural and transfer all workers to your far away 3rd base.) Also their natural is extremely delayed and put your ovelrord dropping creep to block their natural even more, and make sure its on hold position! (the creep will start receding much later as it will continue to goop until it dies rather than when its first attacked). Usually they cannot defend the roach counterattack and they jsut die, or you gain a significant lead, depends how they followed up. Regardless you can always retreat and you shouold be significantly ahead in economy.
As for the mutalisk vs weak to a ground attack close spawns, you should be safe if you went for a baneling nest sometime while lair was building, and I'd do this whenever I feel threatened by this and also on close spawns.
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I actually came up with the answers to all parts of 1. just now (yes even did some math/analysis with gas/timings) as I haven't really been opening spire vs protoss since the first few weeks of beta heh, I just don't like the spire opener that much vs protoss.
just tested 1b. some, 16 mutas loses to 10 phoenixes with this, but 17 vs 10, mutas win slightly
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United States2095 Posts
That's one awesome response Zelniq! O ,O
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This is a really great thread. Thank You to all the high level zerg who have been answering questions, it's very appreciated!
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On November 24 2010 05:23 Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 04:08 Cambam wrote:
What do you do about a sentry heavy (6-8) 4 gate push? A lot people say make zerglings and feint him to make him waste force fields, but I feel like a good protoss will either not use any, or make sure he traps a lot of lings if he does. I feel like I have to mass roaches, because any zergling made is wasted against a sentry army.
Also, how do I keep the 4 gate push from waltzing behind my natural's mineral line and force fielding himself in. I'd need 5-9 spine crawlers to block the whole natural well, is that what I need?
Finally, getting your ramp forcefielded seems to be an instant-gg, how do you prevent it? Especially on maps like delta quadrant where it takes a while to get creep and thus spine crawlers over there?
Thanks! This question is not easy to answer in text. Basically what you have to do is mix roaches + zerglings. You also can't let him get to your ramp with that many sentries. You have to use roaches and lings with minimum ammount of spine crawlers and try and surround and flank him. The answer I gave in the FAQ pretty much works for this question, so check it out if you havn't already. Zergling feint's are a bad idea because you let the protoss know where your zerglings are. IF you show zerglings you better be prepared to flank and attack the protoss, letting them regain shields after your attack dies is a certain path to you GG'ing at the end of the game!
Won't the zerglings be useless when he surrounds his stalker/sentry ball with forcefields, leaving only zealots for the zerglings to attack? This is why I feel building any more than 2-4 zerglings is a waste of money and larva. What am I missing?
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The best way to defend 2 starport is with 3 queens (at least, depending on your drone situation) and then getting several spine crawlers and watching the terran and reacting.
So I DID figure out that queens were able to stop 2-port banshee play. However, I'm confused about the spinecrawlers. Are they to stop the marine/hellion pushes that often accompany banshee play? Also, what did you mean about the drone situation? And lastly, what sort of timing do you do for lair against this build? I've been trying to pump out 1 additional queen from each hatch (for a total of 4 queens out) then go lair, but I dunno if it's early enough.
Thanks for all the help!
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:28 Bio wrote:
Hey guys,
I thought I might inquire about things such as the terran mass helion (with blueflame) into mass banshees while taking their natural. This "harass heavy" build has been giving me a lot of trouble as I cannot seem to continue on with my build. What happens is eventually they go helion, marine, thor, and banshees, and I can't seem to have the unit composition or economy to deal with the next big push.
They wait until they get 4 helions to push out, pretty much the critical mass, and then they do the same for the banshees, so I cant even make queens fast enough.
What...
Do...
I...
Do?!
This build can be countered fairly easy if you can see it coming. The trick is to use your first few zerglings to see what the Terran is doing. If you see the factory with a tech lab you can know either tanks or hellions. And once you see the first Hellion's you'll know its blue flame! When you see that hes massing hellions like that you'll have to make a roach warren and pop up a spine crawler. The point of this is to hold him off until he reaches that critical mass. Once he reaches that if you timed it right you should have 4-5 roaches and a queen or two at your natural. Your point is to keep him from attackin and you can even pressure a little with those roaches. By then you want to start your lair and find out what else hes going. If you see banshees you can get more queens and an overseer! Hope that helped!
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How do you play ZvT/ZvP on maps with;
*close ground-distance (steppes, close-spawn delta/LT)
*very easy natural for T/P (jungle basin)
*easly defendable 3rd (delta, steppes)
....Basically, close-spawn delta/steppes/metal/jungle >_> basically I need to alter my play completely and get a bigger standing army than usual since I wont have time to instantly build up alot of units the moment they push, and also be very careful of timing attacks.... would hydra/roach play be best, even ZvT? (considering muta/ling is pretty vulnerable untill you get a good mutas up)
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I'm a totally new player to SC2, I've watched a lot of GSL so while I have a mediocre understanding of BO's and strategies there are a lot of subtle things I know nothing about.
Scouting is my biggest problem at the moment, I'm never sure when to sac an overlord. Also I wonder is it necessary to get overlord speed to get as much intel as possible before it gets killed?
I'm pretty much the kind of player that wins any game where I can reach the midgame unpunished on 2 hatcheries but any kind of double barracks/4 gate rush completely destroys me every time.
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On November 24 2010 08:58 KaiserJohan wrote:
How do you play ZvT/ZvP on maps with;
*close ground-distance (steppes, close-spawn delta/LT)
*very easy natural for T/P (jungle basin)
*easly defendable 3rd (delta, steppes)
....Basically, close-spawn delta/steppes/metal/jungle >_> basically I need to alter my play completely and get a bigger standing army than usual since I wont have time to instantly build up alot of units the moment they push, and also be very careful of timing attacks.... would hydra/roach play be best, even ZvT? (considering muta/ling is pretty vulnerable untill you get a good mutas up)
this is a very complex question, in my opinion you need to adapt and find out what works on different maps. for instance I have many different openers for every matchup, depending on map, positions and information i gather early on. scouting is the key but you can't expect 1 strategy to work the same on every map or against every composition.
for example on steppes I open with 7 pool against protoss and I do a 4 drone harrass against Terran, what this does and why it works for me is because it grants me map control afterwards and me being the aggressor will guarantee in most cases that I have control of the game to some extend.
if you feel like you won't be able to build a lot of units you can get cost effective units like infestors, they are fantastic against early pressure (particulary from barrack units) or if you want to go for a roach baneling or muta baneling composition try to make sure you're scouting to figure out when your opponent is looking to move and what not so that you can prepare accordingly.
if you feel like you don't have enough units or that you won't be able to pump enough in time, go ahead and make some to be safe but don't over react because if he decides not to move you'll be behind in economy. An expansion and bunkers are good indicators that your opponent isn't planning to move out soon. also fast tech like banshees is another indicator that you can macro up more freely as long as you're prepared to stop that as early on this kind of play requires a heavy investment from the terran (much like an expansion) and its unlikely that they will have an army to follow up with their harrass in a short period of time.
maps like jungle basin are sorta lame. but you have options if they fast expand, be GREEDIER than you normally are, or be more aggressive than you normally are and do a timing attack, perhaps trying to break his rocks, again just try to react as best as possible and scout scout scout scout scout, scouting + knowledge = win. you see, you react you make what you need to make wether its more drones, a 3rd hatch, more units a tech switch or w/e, again a very complex question hard to put it in less words.
hope this helps.
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On November 24 2010 08:58 KaiserJohan wrote:
How do you play ZvT/ZvP on maps with;
*close ground-distance (steppes, close-spawn delta/LT)
*very easy natural for T/P (jungle basin)
*easly defendable 3rd (delta, steppes)
....Basically, close-spawn delta/steppes/metal/jungle >_> basically I need to alter my play completely and get a bigger standing army than usual since I wont have time to instantly build up alot of units the moment they push, and also be very careful of timing attacks.... would hydra/roach play be best, even ZvT? (considering muta/ling is pretty vulnerable untill you get a good mutas up)
You know you can take ur 2 golds relatively easy too right ? The rocks aren't in a ramp or in a narrow path thus allowing all ur glings to destroy it rather quickly. I'd even dare to say that you have those expands way earlier than him so you can just get like 10 hatch in ur main producing glings only. I really don't think this map is terran favored or what not but the main problem is their PFs.
It's just too bad that overseers aren't able to cancel the PFs' attack anymore... 
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How do you deal with forcefields mid game when ultras arent out? Mostly against protoss I go a ling>ultra build, and when they do these pushes with alot of sentries my zerglings can do absolutely nothing since the forcefields really deny them. I was thinking maybe getting burrow?
Do you think this build is still strong? I haven't seen anyone use it in a while but ZvP is def my worst match up(with zvz)
thanks
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EPT
