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United States2095 Posts
Zerg FAQ
![[image loading]](http://i55.tinypic.com/xnayo9.jpg)
What’s the purpose of this thread?
This thread will help answer all Frequently Asked Questions for Zerg users. It will answer basic questions as well as any harder questions asked by TL.net posters.
1. How do I win as Zerg?
Ask questions and get knowledge! Feel free to ask any questions you have and the ROOT Gaming Zerg’s will be on the case. Myself, Catz, and Slush will all be checking this forum from time to time to answer your questions!
2. What’s the best Build Order in Zerg vs. Terran?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer 2] +There are multiple “good” build orders. Depending upon the map and your opponent (cheesey or non-cheesey) you can either do a 14 hatch 13 pool build or a 14 pool 16 hatchery build. These are both standard.
3. What’s the best Build Order in Zerg vs. Protoss?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer 3] +There is again no best. However the most standard build orders are 13 pool 15 hatchery, 14 pool 16 hatchery and 14 gas 14 pool. These will provide three different type games. (Slightly offensive macro, Macro, and Early pressure Micro)
4. What’s the best Build Order in Zerg vs. Zerg?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer 4] +Ha trick question! In Zerg vs. Zerg you simply want to have a better economy while still being able to defend the Zerg Swarm.
5. How do I best deal with a 4 Warpgate attack when vs. Protoss?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer 5] +I find personally that a combination of Zerglings, Roaches, and Spine Crawlers are the best combination early game to defend this and put pressure back on the Protoss. For a more in-depth answer to this question simply post a question on this thread.
6. How do I stop the “Foxer” (2 Barracks Marine all in with or without scvs) build?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer 6] +There is no easy way to defend this build right now. Some people will suggest banelings or roaches. If the Terran reaches a critical mass of marines then yes you will need roaches and/or banelings. However if it’s a very early attack you will have to make do with Zerglings, Queens, and Spine Crawlers.
7. How do I stop Banshees?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer 7] +Very Good question young zerg. The best way to do this is with proper scouting. By sending in an overlord at a critical time you can detect these banshees and defend properly. There are two different types of banshee attacks. (2 starport or 1 starport cloak) The best way to defend 2 starport is with 3 queens (at least, depending on your drone situation) and then getting several spine crawlers and watching the terran and reacting. To defend 1 starport cloak it is best to have 3 queens, and an overlord. If you keep the 3rd queen in the center of your main and natural you can move it in to help infuse your one queen with health while bringing it and your 3rd queen to help.
8. Can I safely expand ZvZ with a 14 hatch?
+ Show Spoiler [ Answer 8] + You can do this if your opponent isn't doing some sort of 10 pool or even quicker pool. On certain maps such as Delta Quadrant and Scrap Station you won't be able to hold your 14 pool against a properly played 1 base cheese.
9. When's a good time to Sacrifice an Overlord to gain information?
+ Show Spoiler [ Answer 9] +It's always going to depend on build order! Generally if your playing versus Terran you will want to sacrifice it around 1 minute or so after you've seen the factory tech finished. Versus Protoss waiting around 1-2 minutes after you see him making his cybernetics core is a good timing window! Generally you want to wait a little bit after hes finished making his open tech and started hiding it.
10. My 200/200 Army isn't as strong as his 200/200 Army what should I do?
+ Show Spoiler [ Answer 10] +Its going to depend on which match up your in. ZvT you'll want to sacrifice some of your army to free up some population to help u directly counter him, but its not that easy and you shouldn't ever get into a 200/200 army fight with a terran (think counter and dropship). In ZvP you'll have to blow most of your army (hopefully killing some of his, and possibly some economy!) and be prepared with enough minerals to make another 200/200 army thats better suited to fight his!
I’ve been hoping to get back in touch with the community after writing my guide. So I thought instead of writing a new guide I would attempt to do something like this first. Please feel free to ask any and all questions involving THE ZERG here.
If interested in more replays from either myself (Sheth), CatZ, or Slush please visit the following websites! Machine has also graciously accepted to answering a few questions. I'm sure we'll all appreciate it! Thanks to Zelniq as well for helping out with answering questions! Thanks Nour for helping out a bit too!
http://www.root-gaming.com/
http://www.gosucoaching.com/
![[image loading]](http://www.gosucoaching.com/sites/all/themes/gosucoaching/images/logo.png)
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What's a good unit composition against a Terran who goes heavy mech with blue flame hellions + mass marines in the mid-late game off two base?
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How do you decide when to drone and when to make an army?
How do you initiate timing pushes rather than scouting a push, quickly massing a counter army, and counter attacking?
Which units do you find yourself using as a good core unit for each matchup?
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If a Protoss has one or two cannons at their choke, when is the best time to attack them and with what units before they get their gateway ball + collossi?
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 02:37 Msrobinson wrote:
How do you decide when to drone and when to make an army?
How do you initiate timing pushes rather than scouting a push, quickly massing a counter army, and counter attacking?
Which units do you find yourself using as a good core unit for each matchup?
Part 1 : Early in the game you have to try and either start with aggression or drones. I personally choose drones. (It leads to a macro game, think 14 hatchery 13 pool) After that point your goal should be to make as many drones as you can while still defending the Terran / Protoss army. If you can hold off the early aggression from them you can choose to either start building up an army or continue to macro. All of these choices basically lead you to think "hey should I build up an army and pressure him back now or should I continue to macro?" Sense this is a rather general question on when to make drones, I would recommend you make drones WHENEVER you don't have to be actively defending or when your not doing a timing attack. Have 50 drones? Make more!
Part 2 : This is a very interesting question. I'll assume your referring to ZvT for the sake of my answer. Early if they expand or do a ground army you can do a timing push with speed Zerglings. Later in the game you can do one with Zergling / Baneling or Roach / Ling. Zerg doesn't have that many timing push options because most of them are all-in to some affect. Think building an army and then using baneling drops, zergling drops, mutas harass and the like and then you'll have an army saved up for if he counter's you.
Part 3 : For vs. Zerg I generally make many many roaches and 1-2 queens per base. For vs. Terran I find my core is Zergling / Baneling / Muta. (For this composition +1 melee attack, +1 air defence are key upgrades!) For vs. Protoss I find that Zergling / Roach are best for early game, into either Ling / Roach / Hydra or Ling / Roach / Corrupter / Infestor.
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On November 24 2010 02:33 Dysk wrote:
What's a good unit composition against a Terran who goes heavy mech with blue flame hellions + mass marines in the mid-late game off two base?
Hi,
It has to be roach heavy. If you scout multiple factory you need to switch your composition to roaches. Assuming you went speedling first, keep them as they will be usefull in battle. Have your roaches seperate in another control group so that when the terran try to harass you with hellion you can deny them.
When the terran have seen you go heavy roaches he will presumably stop producing hellions and go marines. This is where zerg is good for transitioning back to speedling and banelings.
UPGRADES: vs Mech I prefer attack upgrades. The caparace wont do much vs hellions that 2shots lings and tanks/thors that 1 shot them. vs BIO Carapace is a good choice as the marine fires faster.
TECHING: vs tanks, your ultimate goal will be to reach the broodlord tech. The broodlings deny almost any tanks from sieging as they shoot their own unit basicly.
So the mix (lings banelings roaches 1-2 infestors and broodlords)
Hope that helped.
SLush
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On November 24 2010 02:39 HelloSon wrote:
If a Protoss has one or two cannons at their choke, when is the best time to attack them and with what units before they get their gateway ball + collossi?
If protoss has one or two cannons at their base, that means they're giving you map control FOR FREE!
sacrifice an overlord, don't just assume they will get gateways + colossi, they could easily be going DTs or Voidrays as the 2 cannons are basically saying "I don't wanna make units!" (at least for a bit)
this should tell you: I want to make drones get a huge economy lead and let him move whenever he wants to move, no need to be aggressive in this situation, in my opinion just taking as much of the map and saturating as much as possible would be the best thing to do inmediately and then depending on what you scout with the overlord you'll sacrifice for information you react accordingly, if they are going DT or Voidray and you scouted it too late to make a lair cause you were being too greedy, some spore crawlers will do until you can get some overseers. if they are going colossi and gateway units, gear up for it getting some roaches, less hydras (if colossi) and some corruptors, that should do the trick!
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Here is more of an opinion question rather than strategy. Do any of you guys think zerg needs to be revamped some way to engage more efficiently in and around choke points?
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On a map like LT or Metal, do you always send your ov to the nearest position and risk giving your position away quickly if they see it?
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Hi Sheth, Slush and Catz,
As a zerg player I find it very hard to deal with protoss. I'm not sure where my week point is, but I've tried hard. Mainly 4 gate (A lot of stalker some zealots and sentries)!!
Even though I scout correctly, then get roaches / lings by the time of the initial push. I find it very hard to engage the protoss army because of the force fields. Almost every matchup with protoss i end up losing because of this.
Terran has stim, protos has force fields by fairly early game. What do zerg have?
Thanks.
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vs. 4gate warpgate:
do you sit in your base and prepare to defend that initial attack or is there a way to engage them outside your base?
if engaging outside your base, do you focus down the pylon first to stop reinforcing units or focus on the existing units first?
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Reserving a spot for my question.
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On November 24 2010 03:12 HelloSon wrote:
On a map like LT or Metal, do you always send your ov to the nearest position and risk giving your position away quickly if they see it?
yes. there's 2 ways to do this: overlord has a bigger range of vision than nexus or cc's so if you can just pay close attention, as soon as you see a blue (or whatever color they are) dot on the minimap, you pull back to your base and your overlord won't be revealed.
in high level play, some players like KiWiKaKi, HuK and qxc are always scouting for that scouting overlord early on with an scv (pulling 1 scv off minerals and scouting their own base as the overlord is flying in) so that's the best way to counter the scouting overlord HOWEVER, against top players in important matches, many times i'll have my overlord sit in between bases outside of the probe or scv's vision range, so that IF they do this, i will see them with my overlord and reveal their position without revealing mine, so there's a counter to the overlord scout, but there's also a counter to that counter. hope this helps.
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@Wire
Normally by the time I findout my opponent is going for 4gate I already have expanded. And immediately I'll start roaches, spinecrawlers. But mainly what happens is, even if the 4 gate army can't breach my front defence, I'll be pinned to my main and natural (pin = forced to be limited as day9 says :D ) !!!
**Edit: I would really appreciate if someone can give me some replays where they counter (or at least survive and win later) a 4 or more gate mass stalker + sentries with forcefields (and some zealots may be) push at early to mid game.
Thx.
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 03:11 SONofaGUN wrote:
Here is more of an opinion question rather than strategy. Do any of you guys think zerg needs to be revamped some way to engage more efficiently in and around choke points?
I feel like this isn't a problem too much because of the maps. There are maps such as Kulas Revine which contains only choke points. On maps like that then there is a huge Zerg disadvantage because of this however on maps with open places there is an advantage for Zerg's to attack there. I view it as part of being a Zerg player that we must learn not to engage at points that our opponent dictates to us! There are also ways such as infestors, banelings, and dropships that we can avoid even those chokes on Kulas. Hope this answer helped even though it is just my oppinion ! : )
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1. What is the best response to a FE Protoss going double stargate;
1a. only seeing it after spire is halfway complete by an overseer morphed immediately after lair finished.
1b. scouting it with your first batch of mutas (6-7)
2. When is a good time to sac an overlord against T assuming you only see a naked rax and 3-4 marines at ramp?
3. Opening FE 2 base Mutas on close spawns (9-12 or 3-6) leaves you vulnerable to some sort of strong ground push but if you don't, you risk getting dropped on ledge with thors/marines/scvs, soooooo what are some things you need to do in order to force the game into a mid game that doesn't put you massively behind?
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I've read already 100 thread about ZvZ, but I still dont get to the breakthrough. ZvT and ZvP seems so simple to me and I usually understand where I fucked up after watching the replay of a lost match. But for ZvZ it seems that I simply don't understand what I have to pay attention for.
Do you got some general tips on what to focus in ZvZ? What are the most important aspects about ZvZ?
It was mentioned before, that it is important to be ahead in economy. But how the hell can I know if I'm leading or not? How do I judge when it's a good moment to produce drones? And are we talking about squeezing out 1-2 drones or like a few injections worth of drones?
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Once late game is reached, which matchups favor building Ultralisks? building Broodlords?
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Stealth protoss here trying to reap some intel:
What's in your opinion the best response to the nowadays very common 5/6 gate timing attack (~10 minutes ingame), mostly with +1 off two base (be it after a stalker-harass, be it after a sentry-expand, the timings are very similar). Because I found that for a classic ling/muta-play you'd probably have to go crazy on spines....for roach-openings I think early burrow? Don't let yourselves limit by my guesses. Although I'm protoss I hope it's ok to ask what's the best response to this timing-push is, because I'm curious to learn about the biggest weaknesses this heavy gateway push with delayed tech has from the perspective of a zerg-player.
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 03:14 Dragon768 wrote:
Hi Sheth, Slush and Catz,
As a zerg player I find it very hard to deal with protoss. I'm not sure where my week point is, but I've tried hard. Mainly 4 gate (A lot of stalker some zealots and sentries)!!
Even though I scout correctly, then get roaches / lings by the time of the initial push. I find it very hard to engage the protoss army because of the force fields. Almost every matchup with protoss i end up losing because of this.
Terran has stim, protos has force fields by fairly early game. What do zerg have?
Thanks.
Zerg has Burrow and the ability to Flank and Mass. Try burrowing under forcefields, and try coming from two directions against protoss. Against terran we have Fungal growth to counter stim. (Among other things!)
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Awesome thread, Sheth. Glad to see you're back and active (and owning up the ladder with the other ROOT Zergs). Also thanks to CatZ and Slush for chiming in with your opinions (CatZ, your stream is awesome, btw).
I don't have any question at the moment, just saying thanks 
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 03:14 Wire wrote:
vs. 4gate warpgate:
do you sit in your base and prepare to defend that initial attack or is there a way to engage them outside your base?
if engaging outside your base, do you focus down the pylon first to stop reinforcing units or focus on the existing units first?
First Part : In a perfect world your going to be able to bring in 1/2 of your zerglings and 1/2 of your roaches from behind the protoss army quick enough that he can't completely block out that half of your army, and you'll use the other 1/2 of your force along with your queen and however many drones you need to help attack on that side. Once you have destroyed his army, his four gate build will be very very weak.
Second Part: If you engage outside, you simply try and do a well timed flank attempting to use all 4 directions. If you can kill the pylon with zerglings only, without revealing the size of your army outside of your base, then by all means you should do that. Sniping the probe, and preventing more probes from coming along can also help if you can do it without losing that many units. Mainly its getting enough drones, but not too many!!
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Here's some questions:
On November 24 2010 02:29 Sheth wrote:7. How do I stop Banshees?+ Show Spoiler [Answer 7] +Very Good question young zerg. The best way to do this is with proper scouting. By sending in an overlord at a critical time you can detect these banshees and defend properly. There are two different types of banshee attacks. (2 starport or 1 starport cloak) The best way to defend 2 starport is with 3 queens (at least, depending on your drone situation) and then getting several spine crawlers and watching the terran and reacting. To defend 1 starport cloak it is best to have 3 queens, and an overlord. If you keep the 3rd queen in the center of your main and natural you can move it in to help infuse your one queen with health while bringing it and your 3rd queen to help.
1. What is the 'critical time' that you send your overlord in?
2. When do you get lair vs 2 starport banshees?
3. In ZvP, how do you usually respond to 15 nex, gate nex, or forge nex (basically any protoss FE build)?
4. In ZvZ, do you have a 'standard' BO? If not, what about a set of standard BOs? How does the map affect your opening? How do you decide whether to pool-first, hatch-first, or gas-first?
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@Sheth,
I'm going to try get get burrow and tunneling claws before the 4gate attack comes. Hope it'll work.
**Edit: Thanks for the guide on the multi directonal attack. I normally have this difficulty when my protoss opponent spawn in the nearest location (metalopolis, lost temple) so there's on proxy pylon. Your answer made me more confident that 4 gate can be handled well without stress.
Thx.
@sleepingdog,
Thanks for the info from stealth protos. 
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Great thread, thank you guys!
I've got one question for now, ZvP: Toss opens with phoenix. You have to scout it at ~5:00-6:00 with an overlord. Correct? Then: What do you do? More queens? Spores? Hydras?
I often lose 2 queens and 2-3 overs with their first push and hate investing heavily in AA, since you will never know how much P invests into air. You won't be able to overscout because of the phoenix and sporecrawler are expensive and often useless. Usually, when I eventually defend my two bases, I'm feeling behind and got no idea what to build and how to scout.
Going hyds: Yes, if you get some hyds you can defend against phoenix, but 1. P will just relax, build colossi and roflstomp you or 2. if you decide to attack, P will harrass your main to death when your hyds leave. This is especially true on big maps, since hyds are so sluggish and his phoenix will maintain map control and snipe whatever they see. And usually P gets some cannons + WG units so that if your hyds finally arrive they won't do great damage anyway.
How do you deal with this?
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Hi, i find myself getting all-in'd all day everyday, is there any build that is effective against most all-ins while still being able to pull itself into a macro game? How do you deal with all-ins?
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What do you do about a sentry heavy (6-8) 4 gate push? A lot people say make zerglings and feint him to make him waste force fields, but I feel like a good protoss will either not use any, or make sure he traps a lot of lings if he does. I feel like I have to mass roaches, because any zergling made is wasted against a sentry army.
Also, how do I keep the 4 gate push from waltzing behind my natural's mineral line and force fielding himself in. I'd need 5-9 spine crawlers to block the whole natural well, is that what I need?
Finally, getting your ramp forcefielded seems to be an instant-gg, how do you prevent it? Especially on maps like delta quadrant where it takes a while to get creep and thus spine crawlers over there?
Thanks!
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Going hatch first seems to be all the rage but I find it is very weak against rushes.
Interestingly going hatch first doesn't give you such a great boost compared to a 14gas 14 pool 21 expand build, as you only gain extra larvae during the time your fast expansion is up (especially as people tend to place a creep tumour with one of their queens; if you vomit larvae on both hatcheries ASAP it's different). So, are hatch first build overrated or am I missing something?
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Hey guys, I'm just wondering what your preferences for hotkeys are, more specifically army control (as I know people have their own queen/hatchery preferences).
I'm having trouble keeping consistent groupings game per game. Like I'll have lings as 1 and blings as 2 early game, but later on if I switch to roaches, I'll have them on 3, but when I transition, I'll have them back on 1 or some crazy shit and have mutas on 3. I DUNNO HELP
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lol goddamn, my question should be the next one answered (after WiRed) and now i'm sitting here pressing f5 like an idiot for the last 30minutes T_T
Btw Sheth, Just so you know, Saracen attempted a similiar undertaking a while back and created a thread too with DarKforCe helping out. However it filled up VERY fast, but mostly with just ppls asking the same question over and over and over and over again. Perhaps updating the op with subgroups will help reduce the numbers of repeated questions? It'll reduce your load and makes it easier for TL'ers to search for questions. Just a thought =]
(damnit answer my question already, i need to make breakfast and go to my exam T_T)
Shit 4got to say thanks in advance. So THANKS HEAPS. Wiill check back after exam.
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What is the best way to counter a cannon rush after going hatch first?
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Hey ROOT Zerg's, I would like to express my appreciation for Sheth's Zerg guide from awhile back, I found it very helpful when I first started Starcraft 2 a few months back, and for CatZ's great stream.
My question concerns the Protoss mid game push. I've adjusted to learning how to properly defend the 4gate, and a majority of the time I can handle standard zealots/stalkers with or without sentry 4gate pushes unless I'm caught off guard by a sneaky sneaky pylon or something. However, after fending off the initial early 4gate push, and saturating my main and natural I seem to fall a lot to the mid game ~5/6 gate with colossus push. Was wondering when I should scout out for colossus, when to get the spire for corrupters, and generally how to manage my army to handle the big midgame push from toss (generally as they expand while they're pushing)?
Thanks!
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Do you feel Ultralisks are worthwhile in ZvP? I made a thread on this but basically I find that Protoss will easily switch to an Immortal-orientated army as you head to UltraLing and so you're better off just massing HydraLing
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Do you guys feel that hatch first ZvZ is viable? On what maps? What openers do you guys usually do for ZvZ.
If the ops open roaches, and you open hatch first, how do you respond?
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 03:38 jAck_sc2 wrote:
I've read already 100 thread about ZvZ, but I still dont get to the breakthrough. ZvT and ZvP seems so simple to me and I usually understand where I fucked up after watching the replay of a lost match. But for ZvZ it seems that I simply don't understand what I have to pay attention for.
Do you got some general tips on what to focus in ZvZ? What are the most important aspects about ZvZ?
It was mentioned before, that it is important to be ahead in economy. But how the hell can I know if I'm leading or not? How do I judge when it's a good moment to produce drones? And are we talking about squeezing out 1-2 drones or like a few injections worth of drones?
ZvZ is all about stages. The first stage of the game, is scouting. You have to find out what your opponent is building. In order to do this, sending your first 2 overlords to check for an expansion and then to continue your build in regards to his. If he fast expands you can fast expand back, or you can try and do 1 hatch aggression play. Its always a good idea to get 6-8+ zerglings as well to scout and defend early zerglings from your opponent. After you've done that you have to choose whether to get zergling speed and more lings, banelings with lings, or roaches. Its kind of like rock paper scissors. Pure lings > Roaches > Banelings > Pure lings. You just have to scout,and be smart about it.
2nd part. It'll come with time when you know your ahead or not. Generally if you don't stop any of his attacks, and he doenst stop any of yours, your about even. If one of you loses units for nothing your behind. Gotta use common sence, and scouting. Have overlords around to see his army and his production units. If he has alot of gates or barracks then perhaps hes all-in and your already ahead in drones. If hes expo'ed 3 times, then your probably behind, but you probably have enough of an army to pressure him.
@ Hammurabi
Most matchups favor Ultralisks for late game. However it can be a good idea, to get a few broodlords to make your opponent get vikings or void rays, and then to go ultralisks and say hydralisks. Ultralisks are very good end game vs. mech, and very good end game vs. protoss. Broodlords can be a great harass unit vs. t, but they've lost some of their luster in games vs. protoss!
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 03:44 sleepingdog wrote:
Stealth protoss here trying to reap some intel:
What's in your opinion the best response to the nowadays very common 5/6 gate timing attack (~10 minutes ingame), mostly with +1 off two base (be it after a stalker-harass, be it after a sentry-expand, the timings are very similar). Because I found that for a classic ling/muta-play you'd probably have to go crazy on spines....for roach-openings I think early burrow? Don't let yourselves limit by my guesses. Although I'm protoss I hope it's ok to ask what's the best response to this timing-push is, because I'm curious to learn about the biggest weaknesses this heavy gateway push with delayed tech has from the perspective of a zerg-player.
I find the best way to deal with this is roaches with speed, zerglings and perhaps a quick move into hydralisks to help. Using your zerglings to harass the protoss's natural whenever he moves out can also delay and help. You can't attack in a choke point, you have to find open ground, be it near your main or out in the open. If you have burrow you can micro roach burrow, or just simply wait for the protoss to be above your army before attacking. That's the best way I've found in order to defeat protoss who do that build order!
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 03:51 BlasiuS wrote:Here's some questions: Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 02:29 Sheth wrote:7. How do I stop Banshees?+ Show Spoiler [Answer 7] +Very Good question young zerg. The best way to do this is with proper scouting. By sending in an overlord at a critical time you can detect these banshees and defend properly. There are two different types of banshee attacks. (2 starport or 1 starport cloak) The best way to defend 2 starport is with 3 queens (at least, depending on your drone situation) and then getting several spine crawlers and watching the terran and reacting. To defend 1 starport cloak it is best to have 3 queens, and an overlord. If you keep the 3rd queen in the center of your main and natural you can move it in to help infuse your one queen with health while bringing it and your 3rd queen to help. 1. What is the 'critical time' that you send your overlord in? 2. When do you get lair vs 2 starport banshees? 3. In ZvP, how do you usually respond to 15 nex, gate nex, or forge nex (basically any protoss FE build)? 4. In ZvZ, do you have a 'standard' BO? If not, what about a set of standard BOs? How does the map affect your opening? How do you decide whether to pool-first, hatch-first, or gas-first?
Heya Blas,
1. Once you've seen the factory completed, and you can see that hes going either reactor or techlab hellions, its imperitive that you learn more. You should run your overlord in from the side to check a little after hes started pumping hellions. If there is no factory out front, then you want to just check along the edges and suicide at around the same timing as you would for an imaginary factory finishing.
2. Depending on how quickly you see the starports I'll get it once I've gotten 3 queens and spore crawlers up. 1-2 spore's per base is very helpful vs. this. You can start it earlier though if you didn't get ling speed.
3. I generally do a 13 pool build order vs. protoss, so I just straight up kill 15 nexus, I put pressure if they gate nexus. If they do Forge Nexus, I realize they can't put pressure on me so I'll take 3 bases and macro roaches and scout with an overseer and base my tech on what I see.
4. I have two standards. I put them both in the FAQ part of this thread. You just have to change it up depending on what you think your opponent will do and the map. Scrap station for instance you can't 14 hatch and hold it where as Metal its alot easier.
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 03:53 Antithesis wrote:
Great thread, thank you guys!
I've got one question for now, ZvP: Toss opens with phoenix. You have to scout it at ~5:00-6:00 with an overlord. Correct? Then: What do you do? More queens? Spores? Hydras?
I often lose 2 queens and 2-3 overs with their first push and hate investing heavily in AA, since you will never know how much P invests into air. You won't be able to overscout because of the phoenix and sporecrawler are expensive and often useless. Usually, when I eventually defend my two bases, I'm feeling behind and got no idea what to build and how to scout.
Going hyds: Yes, if you get some hyds you can defend against phoenix, but 1. P will just relax, build colossi and roflstomp you or 2. if you decide to attack, P will harrass your main to death when your hyds leave. This is especially true on big maps, since hyds are so sluggish and his phoenix will maintain map control and snipe whatever they see. And usually P gets some cannons + WG units so that if your hyds finally arrive they won't do great damage anyway.
How do you deal with this?
This question is actually fairly simple for me to answer. I'll generally get 3 queens fairly early. This has the added benefit that I can protect my queens if I see phoenix. If they have a large enough ammount I might even get a fourth queen. If I go pure hydras to counter this then I'll simply attack and if they harass my main use my queens to defend the best they can and try and kill the P before the collosus are out or at least do major damage. (It helps ALOT to get overlords speed and have a creep highway to their base) You don't always have to sacrifice a overlord vs. protoss. Alot of the time you can tell what a protoss is going to do based on their choice of warp gate unit and how many you see. If they have 3 warpgates and their not expanding you know something tricky is going on and you can prepare by getting an overseer and perhaps a 4th queen.
Try blindly going hydralisks sometimes before you even see pheonix and then you can kill the protoss right after you defend the first wave of pheonix. Its a blind counter, but sometimes it works like a charm!
@Novachi
There is no such thing as a standard safe build against all ins. Its very all-in specific. The build that protects against Banshees will let you die against marine pressure. You have to figure out which all-in their doing and counter it apppropriatly.
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 04:08 Cambam wrote:
What do you do about a sentry heavy (6-8) 4 gate push? A lot people say make zerglings and feint him to make him waste force fields, but I feel like a good protoss will either not use any, or make sure he traps a lot of lings if he does. I feel like I have to mass roaches, because any zergling made is wasted against a sentry army.
Also, how do I keep the 4 gate push from waltzing behind my natural's mineral line and force fielding himself in. I'd need 5-9 spine crawlers to block the whole natural well, is that what I need?
Finally, getting your ramp forcefielded seems to be an instant-gg, how do you prevent it? Especially on maps like delta quadrant where it takes a while to get creep and thus spine crawlers over there?
Thanks!
This question is not easy to answer in text. Basically what you have to do is mix roaches + zerglings. You also can't let him get to your ramp with that many sentries. You have to use roaches and lings with minimum ammount of spine crawlers and try and surround and flank him. The answer I gave in the FAQ pretty much works for this question, so check it out if you havn't already. Zergling feint's are a bad idea because you let the protoss know where your zerglings are. IF you show zerglings you better be prepared to flank and attack the protoss, letting them regain shields after your attack dies is a certain path to you GG'ing at the end of the game!
@MatheMagician
Yea your missing a lot! If you don't think there's a huge difference in economy between a 14 hatch and a 14 gas pool 21 expand build try them both out on a build order tester. You'll have a lot more of every resource with 14 hatch. Yes it is risky, I don't recommend doing this vs. Protoss, however vs. Terran I find it my favorite starting build.
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Thanks for the thread, great reading.
My question is: how do you view a 5/7 roach push into ~34 supply expand in close positions against protoss? I cant seem to hold a 14hatch against extremely early zealots or zealot/stalkers.
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Hey guys,
I thought I might inquire about things such as the terran mass helion (with blueflame) into mass banshees while taking their natural. This "harass heavy" build has been giving me a lot of trouble as I cannot seem to continue on with my build. What happens is eventually they go helion, marine, thor, and banshees, and I can't seem to have the unit composition or economy to deal with the next big push.
They wait until they get 4 helions to push out, pretty much the critical mass, and then they do the same for the banshees, so I cant even make queens fast enough.
What...
Do...
I...
Do?!
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 04:14 Jtn wrote:
Hey guys, I'm just wondering what your preferences for hotkeys are, more specifically army control (as I know people have their own queen/hatchery preferences).
I'm having trouble keeping consistent groupings game per game. Like I'll have lings as 1 and blings as 2 early game, but later on if I switch to roaches, I'll have them on 3, but when I transition, I'll have them back on 1 or some crazy shit and have mutas on 3. I DUNNO HELP
Hotkeys are something you have to learn as you go. You have to be able to adjust them on the fly. The most important thing is that you keep your banelings on a seperate hotkey and simply move them. If you put all your other units on 1 and 3 you will be able to flank with both of them and just move 2 (banelings) into his army. Its what i do! I use, 5 6 7 though! But using 1-3 works well, and its all about what your comfortable with.
@KrazDel
There is no real way to be equal or ahead if you lose your expansion to cannons. The best way to defend it from happening is with a drone blocking your ramp and a drone chasing the probe. However if you do lose your hatchery you'll have to clear that out generally with either roaches or banelings. At that point you can either All-In or fake all in and expand. I generally don't recommend going 14 hatchery vs. protoss!
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On November 24 2010 04:23 dreamend wrote:
Do you feel Ultralisks are worthwhile in ZvP? I made a thread on this but basically I find that Protoss will easily switch to an Immortal-orientated army as you head to UltraLing and so you're better off just massing HydraLing
Well, it can be good depending upon the Protoss composition. Lets say for instance they are very Colossus heavy with their stalker zeal sentry. By adding in a few Ultralisks you can stop the Colossus production and force a composition more favorable to your hydra ling Broodlord.
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When doing the Kyrix 2 base bust in ZvT, how do you decide whether to go ahead and attack or to save your army. Also, against what Terran openings would you prefer a normal Lair opening and in which situations are the Kyrix style more suitable?
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In ZvZ, when are you scouting? How do you deal with the 6/7pool all-in builds? Do you just plan on doing a 12 pool, and then extend that upon scouting to 14pool or so?
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Is it possible to defend well performed 4-gate push without making roaches?
I really like muta+ling vs protoss and I heard Incontrol saying in some recorded gosucoaching lesson that you don't want to make roaches if you go muta due to wasting gas.
But mass lings and about 4 crawlers often don't work against 4-gate for me.
Should I cancel spire and go roaches if I scout it or is it possible to defend it with 5-8 crawlers and maybe evolution chamber wall off?
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On November 24 2010 03:38 jAck_sc2 wrote:
I've read already 100 thread about ZvZ, but I still dont get to the breakthrough. ZvT and ZvP seems so simple to me and I usually understand where I fucked up after watching the replay of a lost match. But for ZvZ it seems that I simply don't understand what I have to pay attention for.
Do you got some general tips on what to focus in ZvZ? What are the most important aspects about ZvZ?
It was mentioned before, that it is important to be ahead in economy. But how the hell can I know if I'm leading or not? How do I judge when it's a good moment to produce drones? And are we talking about squeezing out 1-2 drones or like a few injections worth of drones?
I have had a lot of success with hatch before pool on certain maps. The only counter to this is fast mass lings/blings. If they go roach, you can defend. If they tech up, you have an extra expo!
Sometimes I get the other hatch to throw them off. I'll start to mass speedlings and then run them into their base before they get mass roach or enough blings to counter.
Roach vs. roach is usually how it ends up going down, so upgrades are key. Squeeze out a drone or two whenever you can. Lots of people like to go mass roach, so a tech switch to muta can be great.
Wait for him to get his third, then go in and kill.
Don't play the game as if you are trying to survive, play the game as if you are a scary mother fucker that's going to tear up anyone who gets in your way.
Sorry for the language.
gg
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 04:37 Urth wrote:
Do you guys feel that hatch first ZvZ is viable? On what maps? What openers do you guys usually do for ZvZ.
If the ops open roaches, and you open hatch first, how do you respond?
I've answered this question a little before so I suppose I should put this on the original OP. Its viable on certain maps. Its not viable on Scrap Station. Correct general open build orders include 14 gas 14 pool, into roaches, banelings or speedlings. Every once in a while it can pay to do a 7 pool on an unsuspecting opponent. You repsond vs. the roaches with going 2 base pure speedlings with a few spinecrawlers vs. a 1 hatch roach build. (At least at the start until they reach critical roach mass, then u need ur own roaches!)
@Resilve
If you can't hold early game perhaps your build order isn't quite right. Check out what I put as a general ZvP build in my old ZvP guide. Other starting build orders that work are even in this FAQ segment. I feel like getting zergling speed and enough zerglings and queens will help u hold off zealot stalker early game.
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Sheth it's like you read my mind. I was going to ask you a few of these questions  Thanks and see ya online!
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United States7166 Posts
On November 24 2010 03:32 me_viet wrote:
1. What is the best response to a FE Protoss going double stargate;
1a. only seeing it after spire is halfway complete by an overseer morphed immediately after lair finished.
1b. scouting it with your first batch of mutas (6-7)
2. When is a good time to sac an overlord against T assuming you only see a naked rax and 3-4 marines at ramp?
3. Opening FE 2 base Mutas on close spawns (9-12 or 3-6) leaves you vulnerable to some sort of strong ground push but if you don't, you risk getting dropped on ledge with thors/marines/scvs, soooooo what are some things you need to do in order to force the game into a mid game that doesn't put you massively behind?
1. The thing to remember whenever protoss invests into a large number of phoenixes is the heavy investment it is, greatly reducing the strength of their ground army. Really what their goal is and what they're capable of is gaining air control, harassing, playing defensive usually while teching up to colossus. This means you should feel relatively safe from any big push coming for a length of time, of course you can't be TOO greedy as his phoenixes will notice if you have only a tiny amount of ground defense and he can take his army (really this depended on how fast he went for phoenix) and go kill you, especially with the graviton beam support.
1a. In this specific circumstance, I would cancel the spire immediately. This would leave you around 400-500ish gas depending on your build's timings. Build a hydra den and infestation pit right away, leaving you 200-300 gas, so by the time your den finishes you leaving you about 500-600 gas (depending on your 4th gas timing). Make an infestor and some hydras, but avoid getting hydra range for now as you can't afford it, and you only want like 1 infestor so don't get energy upgrade. Drone up and add a few more hydras so you have enough to defend your main + natural, and be very careful to keep your infestor protected as it can be easily picked off by his phoenixes. It goes without saying your main and natural must be connected with creep, and after you have a decent amount of hydras gathered and are ready to fungal his phoenixes, lead with fungal and send hydras on them, just be careful not to run your infestor in attack move as well or it'll be graviton'd even while theyre fungal'd. You should be able to pick off several phoenixes, especially if you micro, even if you dont have hydra range yet. You should be going for a roach/hydra combination with upgrades, and taking a 3rd base. If he's going 2 stargate phoenix he is somewhat concerned about a hydra attack, depending on the map, and it would be ideal to do what you can to threaten, forcing cannons/extra defense. On delta quadrant it's very easy for them to just hold their ramp with force field if they only took their back expo, so this threat doesnt exist and you should focus on taking a 3rd quickly. You should eventually be going towards corruptor if they went heavy colossi. Scouting their tech is tough but necessary, use changelings and send overseers/overlords when you know phoenixes are not nearby to pick them off.
as for the concern about canceling, well canceling spire returns you 150/150, a net loss of 50/50, but the return of resources is too important right now, even if you ended up losing some resources for 'nothing.' Another thing to note is as your spire is only half done it has 50 seconds still to finish building. A hydra den takes 40 seconds to build so it's still going to finish faster, and hydras build faster than corruptors. if you went corruptor/infestor instead that's easier to defend the phoenix harass but much useless vs ground army and requires you to build more ground defense than you woudl have with hydras, and also leaves him completely unconcerned about an attack, and can more freely move around the map with his ground army.
1b. I would not like being put in this situation to be honest, so I'd make sure 1a happens instead. But if it did happen for whatever reason. I would go for an infestation pit right away, start +1 air attack if I haven't yet, and play defensive while trying to sneak expos. Once again keep infestor protected as it gains energy, and you wait till you have a large enough enough mutalisk force compared to his phoenix where you can decidedly win the straight air to air battle (for some reference, 16-17 mutas with a good fungal will win vs 10 phoenixes), and fungal them to make sure they dont flee. It seems very key to try and fungal as many phoenixes as possible, ideally right before they engage your mutas, so the phoenixes in the back that are fungaled cannot attack back. If however they saw the infestor/infestor pit they may know this and avoid flying phoenixes into danger. But that gives you map control, and you can continue with your original plan of ling/muta/spine, trying to outexpand him.
Perhaps a better response however would be to switch to hydras right away, it does feel safer and more stable, as trying to outmuscle phoenixes with mutas is dangerous/tough. Perhaps someone with more muta opening experience can enlighten us
2. This is a hard question to answer as it really really depends on what build you opened and the map as well, but if your build leaves you concerned about banshees, then around the I think around 6:30 ish mark is when you want to spot for banshees, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. If you went for the most normal speedling into lair build, it's around halfway or a little past halfway of the lair build time. If you're concerned about some kind of crazy marine allin and he doesn't have marines on the edge of his base, I'd send it in around 4:00 or so to check for extra barracks, if you see even one extra hidden one I'd just instantly make a baneling nest to be safe.
3. This is only applicable to Lost Temple. I actually think tank/thor drop is really easy to stop, easier than many other openers to deal with, but that came with lots of experience dealing with it. Part of the reason why I think so many zergs even pro zergs struggle is cus they don't abandon their plan of going early spire. You can pretty much always tell if they're going for this based on what you see at the ramp + if they took 2 gas or not. Send an overlord in about halfway while lair is building if you weren't sure, and you should have had an overlord above their main mineral ledge as well for additional scouting (focus on getting it there very early in the game). Put up 3 spines hugging your natural cliff, with 1-2 overlords placed carefully to spot for them but not too far onto the ledge. Go for roaches and drop, avoid taking the gas closest to the cliff, and if you have minerals to spare take another base at a far away main base. Use spines unburrow/burrow to stall for drop, every time the tank is sieging out of range of your spines, unburrow and move. as soon as it moves up to attack hatch, root them below the cliff, repeat this to stall time. If they went thor instead, spines do fairly well vs thor and has the same range, and anytime the thor wants to attack the hatchery it will be well in range for many of your roaches. Get roach speed and roach burrow upgrades and just go counterattack as soon as you built a huge enough army and feel safe enough to defend your expo hatch (dont worry too much about this, you can always sac the natural and transfer all workers to your far away 3rd base.) Also their natural is extremely delayed and put your ovelrord dropping creep to block their natural even more, and make sure its on hold position! (the creep will start receding much later as it will continue to goop until it dies rather than when its first attacked). Usually they cannot defend the roach counterattack and they jsut die, or you gain a significant lead, depends how they followed up. Regardless you can always retreat and you shouold be significantly ahead in economy.
As for the mutalisk vs weak to a ground attack close spawns, you should be safe if you went for a baneling nest sometime while lair was building, and I'd do this whenever I feel threatened by this and also on close spawns.
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I actually came up with the answers to all parts of 1. just now (yes even did some math/analysis with gas/timings) as I haven't really been opening spire vs protoss since the first few weeks of beta heh, I just don't like the spire opener that much vs protoss.
just tested 1b. some, 16 mutas loses to 10 phoenixes with this, but 17 vs 10, mutas win slightly
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United States2095 Posts
That's one awesome response Zelniq! O ,O
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This is a really great thread. Thank You to all the high level zerg who have been answering questions, it's very appreciated!
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On November 24 2010 05:23 Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 04:08 Cambam wrote:
What do you do about a sentry heavy (6-8) 4 gate push? A lot people say make zerglings and feint him to make him waste force fields, but I feel like a good protoss will either not use any, or make sure he traps a lot of lings if he does. I feel like I have to mass roaches, because any zergling made is wasted against a sentry army.
Also, how do I keep the 4 gate push from waltzing behind my natural's mineral line and force fielding himself in. I'd need 5-9 spine crawlers to block the whole natural well, is that what I need?
Finally, getting your ramp forcefielded seems to be an instant-gg, how do you prevent it? Especially on maps like delta quadrant where it takes a while to get creep and thus spine crawlers over there?
Thanks! This question is not easy to answer in text. Basically what you have to do is mix roaches + zerglings. You also can't let him get to your ramp with that many sentries. You have to use roaches and lings with minimum ammount of spine crawlers and try and surround and flank him. The answer I gave in the FAQ pretty much works for this question, so check it out if you havn't already. Zergling feint's are a bad idea because you let the protoss know where your zerglings are. IF you show zerglings you better be prepared to flank and attack the protoss, letting them regain shields after your attack dies is a certain path to you GG'ing at the end of the game!
Won't the zerglings be useless when he surrounds his stalker/sentry ball with forcefields, leaving only zealots for the zerglings to attack? This is why I feel building any more than 2-4 zerglings is a waste of money and larva. What am I missing?
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The best way to defend 2 starport is with 3 queens (at least, depending on your drone situation) and then getting several spine crawlers and watching the terran and reacting.
So I DID figure out that queens were able to stop 2-port banshee play. However, I'm confused about the spinecrawlers. Are they to stop the marine/hellion pushes that often accompany banshee play? Also, what did you mean about the drone situation? And lastly, what sort of timing do you do for lair against this build? I've been trying to pump out 1 additional queen from each hatch (for a total of 4 queens out) then go lair, but I dunno if it's early enough.
Thanks for all the help!
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 05:28 Bio wrote:
Hey guys,
I thought I might inquire about things such as the terran mass helion (with blueflame) into mass banshees while taking their natural. This "harass heavy" build has been giving me a lot of trouble as I cannot seem to continue on with my build. What happens is eventually they go helion, marine, thor, and banshees, and I can't seem to have the unit composition or economy to deal with the next big push.
They wait until they get 4 helions to push out, pretty much the critical mass, and then they do the same for the banshees, so I cant even make queens fast enough.
What...
Do...
I...
Do?!
This build can be countered fairly easy if you can see it coming. The trick is to use your first few zerglings to see what the Terran is doing. If you see the factory with a tech lab you can know either tanks or hellions. And once you see the first Hellion's you'll know its blue flame! When you see that hes massing hellions like that you'll have to make a roach warren and pop up a spine crawler. The point of this is to hold him off until he reaches that critical mass. Once he reaches that if you timed it right you should have 4-5 roaches and a queen or two at your natural. Your point is to keep him from attackin and you can even pressure a little with those roaches. By then you want to start your lair and find out what else hes going. If you see banshees you can get more queens and an overseer! Hope that helped!
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How do you play ZvT/ZvP on maps with;
*close ground-distance (steppes, close-spawn delta/LT)
*very easy natural for T/P (jungle basin)
*easly defendable 3rd (delta, steppes)
....Basically, close-spawn delta/steppes/metal/jungle >_> basically I need to alter my play completely and get a bigger standing army than usual since I wont have time to instantly build up alot of units the moment they push, and also be very careful of timing attacks.... would hydra/roach play be best, even ZvT? (considering muta/ling is pretty vulnerable untill you get a good mutas up)
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I'm a totally new player to SC2, I've watched a lot of GSL so while I have a mediocre understanding of BO's and strategies there are a lot of subtle things I know nothing about.
Scouting is my biggest problem at the moment, I'm never sure when to sac an overlord. Also I wonder is it necessary to get overlord speed to get as much intel as possible before it gets killed?
I'm pretty much the kind of player that wins any game where I can reach the midgame unpunished on 2 hatcheries but any kind of double barracks/4 gate rush completely destroys me every time.
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On November 24 2010 08:58 KaiserJohan wrote:
How do you play ZvT/ZvP on maps with;
*close ground-distance (steppes, close-spawn delta/LT)
*very easy natural for T/P (jungle basin)
*easly defendable 3rd (delta, steppes)
....Basically, close-spawn delta/steppes/metal/jungle >_> basically I need to alter my play completely and get a bigger standing army than usual since I wont have time to instantly build up alot of units the moment they push, and also be very careful of timing attacks.... would hydra/roach play be best, even ZvT? (considering muta/ling is pretty vulnerable untill you get a good mutas up)
this is a very complex question, in my opinion you need to adapt and find out what works on different maps. for instance I have many different openers for every matchup, depending on map, positions and information i gather early on. scouting is the key but you can't expect 1 strategy to work the same on every map or against every composition.
for example on steppes I open with 7 pool against protoss and I do a 4 drone harrass against Terran, what this does and why it works for me is because it grants me map control afterwards and me being the aggressor will guarantee in most cases that I have control of the game to some extend.
if you feel like you won't be able to build a lot of units you can get cost effective units like infestors, they are fantastic against early pressure (particulary from barrack units) or if you want to go for a roach baneling or muta baneling composition try to make sure you're scouting to figure out when your opponent is looking to move and what not so that you can prepare accordingly.
if you feel like you don't have enough units or that you won't be able to pump enough in time, go ahead and make some to be safe but don't over react because if he decides not to move you'll be behind in economy. An expansion and bunkers are good indicators that your opponent isn't planning to move out soon. also fast tech like banshees is another indicator that you can macro up more freely as long as you're prepared to stop that as early on this kind of play requires a heavy investment from the terran (much like an expansion) and its unlikely that they will have an army to follow up with their harrass in a short period of time.
maps like jungle basin are sorta lame. but you have options if they fast expand, be GREEDIER than you normally are, or be more aggressive than you normally are and do a timing attack, perhaps trying to break his rocks, again just try to react as best as possible and scout scout scout scout scout, scouting + knowledge = win. you see, you react you make what you need to make wether its more drones, a 3rd hatch, more units a tech switch or w/e, again a very complex question hard to put it in less words.
hope this helps.
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On November 24 2010 08:58 KaiserJohan wrote:
How do you play ZvT/ZvP on maps with;
*close ground-distance (steppes, close-spawn delta/LT)
*very easy natural for T/P (jungle basin)
*easly defendable 3rd (delta, steppes)
....Basically, close-spawn delta/steppes/metal/jungle >_> basically I need to alter my play completely and get a bigger standing army than usual since I wont have time to instantly build up alot of units the moment they push, and also be very careful of timing attacks.... would hydra/roach play be best, even ZvT? (considering muta/ling is pretty vulnerable untill you get a good mutas up)
You know you can take ur 2 golds relatively easy too right ? The rocks aren't in a ramp or in a narrow path thus allowing all ur glings to destroy it rather quickly. I'd even dare to say that you have those expands way earlier than him so you can just get like 10 hatch in ur main producing glings only. I really don't think this map is terran favored or what not but the main problem is their PFs.
It's just too bad that overseers aren't able to cancel the PFs' attack anymore... 
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How do you deal with forcefields mid game when ultras arent out? Mostly against protoss I go a ling>ultra build, and when they do these pushes with alot of sentries my zerglings can do absolutely nothing since the forcefields really deny them. I was thinking maybe getting burrow?
Do you think this build is still strong? I haven't seen anyone use it in a while but ZvP is def my worst match up(with zvz)
thanks
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On November 24 2010 06:01 Madest wrote:
Is it possible to defend well performed 4-gate push without making roaches?
I really like muta+ling vs protoss and I heard Incontrol saying in some recorded gosucoaching lesson that you don't want to make roaches if you go muta due to wasting gas.
But mass lings and about 4 crawlers often don't work against 4-gate for me.
Should I cancel spire and go roaches if I scout it or is it possible to defend it with 5-8 crawlers and maybe evolution chamber wall off?
Another P player trying to get some intel as well
I played against a Z who did 15 Hatch, and as soon as I scouted it, I put down 3 more Gates (i started with my normal 13 Gate 17 Core economy build)...I rallied my 1st 2 zealots and just attacked in an attempt to pressure but the zerglings morphed in off the 2 hatcheries just as I got there (this was on LT cross position by the way) and defended it.
As a Z player, do you have any advice on making effective pressure to an opening 15 Hatch zerg?? Just dont feel like im doing it effectively.
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 06:01 Madest wrote:
Is it possible to defend well performed 4-gate push without making roaches?
I really like muta+ling vs protoss and I heard Incontrol saying in some recorded gosucoaching lesson that you don't want to make roaches if you go muta due to wasting gas.
But mass lings and about 4 crawlers often don't work against 4-gate for me.
Should I cancel spire and go roaches if I scout it or is it possible to defend it with 5-8 crawlers and maybe evolution chamber wall off?
Its possible (theoreticly!) to stop it with only lings. However its VERY VERY risky. Spinecrawlers are difficult to use to hold a protoss attack on most maps. You can probably do it by cutting your economy very low and then getting mutas to try and even the eco back up. However lately with all of the cheese I feel its safer to simply get a roach warren if you think he might go 4 gate pressure. If he doesn't, and does something else then mutas might perhaps be a good idea. (I'm not a huge fan of muta in ZvP right now!) Ofc this completely depends on the situation your in and the unit composition of an opponent. Immortals collosus zealots? Sure go mutas = )
@phnix
I generally scout with my overlords only in ZvZ. I'll also scout with my first 2-4 zerglings. If they have 6 -7 pooled scouting it won't help too much. You'll already have waited long enough that your pool will be late no matter what. I think its better to simply keep the drone and get your eco up. Drones can micro against lings fairly easily now, so its not the most difficult thing in the world to hold 14 hatch against 7 pool. (without sending sunkens that is!)
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 07:00 Cambam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:23 Sheth wrote:On November 24 2010 04:08 Cambam wrote:
What do you do about a sentry heavy (6-8) 4 gate push? A lot people say make zerglings and feint him to make him waste force fields, but I feel like a good protoss will either not use any, or make sure he traps a lot of lings if he does. I feel like I have to mass roaches, because any zergling made is wasted against a sentry army.
Also, how do I keep the 4 gate push from waltzing behind my natural's mineral line and force fielding himself in. I'd need 5-9 spine crawlers to block the whole natural well, is that what I need?
Finally, getting your ramp forcefielded seems to be an instant-gg, how do you prevent it? Especially on maps like delta quadrant where it takes a while to get creep and thus spine crawlers over there?
Thanks! This question is not easy to answer in text. Basically what you have to do is mix roaches + zerglings. You also can't let him get to your ramp with that many sentries. You have to use roaches and lings with minimum ammount of spine crawlers and try and surround and flank him. The answer I gave in the FAQ pretty much works for this question, so check it out if you havn't already. Zergling feint's are a bad idea because you let the protoss know where your zerglings are. IF you show zerglings you better be prepared to flank and attack the protoss, letting them regain shields after your attack dies is a certain path to you GG'ing at the end of the game! Won't the zerglings be useless when he surrounds his stalker/sentry ball with forcefields, leaving only zealots for the zerglings to attack? This is why I feel building any more than 2-4 zerglings is a waste of money and larva. What am I missing?
Leaving only zerglings to attack? Hardly, if he puts his FF's to block the Zerglings (i.e. directly around his units, the roaches can attack and zerglings absorb hits) If he puts his FF to block the roaches, then you simply run the lings away and fight another time. Its imperitive to build more then 2-4 lings in most encounters. If they have enough sentries to play 20 ff's, yea dont' bother with zerglings, or use them to counter. In that case just get roach + burrow, you'll have had the time.
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On November 24 2010 09:12 CatZ.root wrote:
on steppes I open with 7 pool against protoss and I do a 4 drone harrass against Terran, what this does and why it works for me is because it grants me map control afterwards and me being the aggressor will guarantee in most cases that I have control of the game to some extend.
Great thread guys, there is a lot of good information being thrown around, and thanks to all the root players helping out. After reading Catz post It got me thinking about sending drones (3-4) to harass SCVs building the wall and generally mess with a T. What kind of damage do you expect to inflict with this kind of harassment, i mean i can see how it could help, but what exactly is your mission with those drones. Also wondering how you guys actually go about implementing this in game to maximize the advantage you get, such as supply timing to send the drones, number of drones to send or any other insight anyones got.
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In ZvP, has the roach range upgrade made Roach/Hydra more viable than Roach/Hydra/Corruptor vs Colossi? Can we use Roaches similar to Marauders to run in and snipe Colossi and gain the advantage of a unit that is still useful after the Colossi have fallen versus the Corruptor?
In ZvT, is feinting muta with 6-10 and then transitioning into Baneling/Infestor/Roach worth considering over more standard muta ball herding play?
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What would you advise doing against heavy thor builds. I have been having trouble with pushes that involve 6< thors and MMM. the banes kill all of his MMM but the thors live to wipe out the roaches (or even worse, mutas). I have multiple games now where it just seems that the terran opponent randomly decides to 1a his army into my nat and no matter what I do it works.
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I have a problem lately, which is that I get an economical lead, sometimes even three base against one, mostly because I successfully defended an attack he did. I then get tech & upgrades, saturation and concentrate on getting the counter to whatever he is going for. Then suddenly he attacks, I see it in time, I have like 200/200 and more food ready, and it consists of mainly the counter to whatever he makes, and I almost always have him beat in both attack and armor upgrades.
Then I die. Because he had some redicilously strong unit such as siege tank or colossus or voidrays etc. Sometimes I outfood him 50 food and he stil a-moves me because his units are so much stronger.
So I produce 200 more food while he kills expansion of his choice, but he just steamrolls that too. Then he takes his second base.
Ok hehe so maybe I exaggerated but I hope you get my point. I am always going for macro/ 200/ max upgrades/ max production as a goal before I finish him because anything else is dangerous. And it's hard to survive earlygame, but when I get maxxd, his base productions and units are better with 3 less expansions and less upgrades ready. It feels like zerg is useless in the beginning and end. And middle. What to do? Halp
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First, thank you ROOT zerg's for the thread 
Liken osten i find it very hard to compete with protoss in the macro game.
I have encountered a lot of protoss that do 3 gw into Expand, with a heavy sentry army. Makes it very hard to kill the expand with roachs + lings.
A this point if I don't take the expand I loose, because with bigger armies there is so much money units for protoss, they crush easily the lings/roach/hydra and stimroll your base without letting you the time to remake an army.
It's very hard to deal with protoss once they get mass stalkers + high templars. Pb with roachs is that in big numbers, half of them are not firing.
So what's a good zerg army composition versus protoss high tech units ? Is brood lords mandatory ?
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OMG ty so much for that EXTREMELY detailed response!!!
Came back, and that response was epic. Should be pasted in to op imo ;p just for how epic it was.
But in your opinion what is a good time to get the spire after you cancel it for hydras? usually when I do manage to scout the double stargate, I do what you say, but usually go a for a hydra/roach break with some infestor support, it works, to an extent, but usually the ycan stall long enough for 2 collosus to come out, so I'v ebeen thinking of grabbing neural parasite to deal with the first 2 collosus.
Another way I've been trying is to just let spire finish, and plant a hydra den + infestor pit, and then any leftover money is spent in corruptors. It seems to work slightly better but leaves less res for expo'ing and droning, but it covers the collosus angle fairly well.
How viable are these responses?
Once again ty Zelniq for the epic response, and Sheth for such a nice thread.
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Awesome Thread, here's my question.
Early game I never know if I should see my units/buildings in terms of larvae or in term of ressources. In particular when I go 14 hatch. I find there's a 2 minutes window where either going spine crawler or zerglings has a huge impact on the game.
Against Terran it is particularly hard for me because if I make 1 spine crawler after seeing a early second rax and he doesn't attack, i find myself thinking i should have made zerglings instead. But then again, I don't know what should be my view on things, larvae or ressources.
What are the advantages and downsides of each way of seeing my units ?
EDIT : By ressources i mean only minerals and gaz. I know larvae can be considered a ressource as well, but not for the purpose of my question.
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finding it cost ineffective against terrans with really good micro to go ling/baneling/muta/infestor because i cant seem to hold their pressure and maintain a 3rd base when they are flooding marines, medivacs with a few tanks and with amazing micro to split their marines and they are able to produce marines so much faster than you can banelings.
What is the best way to handle a terran who does this type of 'foxer' style?
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Is pool first actually more economic than Hatch first?
What's the best way to defend against a thor drop on LT?
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Thank you, Sheth, CatZ, and Slush for this thread and informative posts! I love seeing the big names posting here =) Your knowledge and experience always enriches the forums here at TL! I know sometimes the unappreciative nooblets can give the best players grief, but I'm so thrilled to see top level players helping us all improve.
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On November 24 2010 11:03 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:01 Madest wrote:
Is it possible to defend well performed 4-gate push without making roaches?
I really like muta+ling vs protoss and I heard Incontrol saying in some recorded gosucoaching lesson that you don't want to make roaches if you go muta due to wasting gas.
But mass lings and about 4 crawlers often don't work against 4-gate for me.
Should I cancel spire and go roaches if I scout it or is it possible to defend it with 5-8 crawlers and maybe evolution chamber wall off? Another P player trying to get some intel as well I played against a Z who did 15 Hatch, and as soon as I scouted it, I put down 3 more Gates (i started with my normal 13 Gate 17 Core economy build)...I rallied my 1st 2 zealots and just attacked in an attempt to pressure but the zerglings morphed in off the 2 hatcheries just as I got there (this was on LT cross position by the way) and defended it. As a Z player, do you have any advice on making effective pressure to an opening 15 Hatch zerg?? Just dont feel like im doing it effectively.
The response you want to hear is drop a Forge immediately and zealot/cannon rush assuming the map distance is not cross position against a hatch first zerg. This strat as stated by IdrA and MACHINE will outright kill a hatch first zerg and as a result they do not hatch first against protoss anymore
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On November 24 2010 11:03 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:01 Madest wrote:
Is it possible to defend well performed 4-gate push without making roaches?
I really like muta+ling vs protoss and I heard Incontrol saying in some recorded gosucoaching lesson that you don't want to make roaches if you go muta due to wasting gas.
But mass lings and about 4 crawlers often don't work against 4-gate for me.
Should I cancel spire and go roaches if I scout it or is it possible to defend it with 5-8 crawlers and maybe evolution chamber wall off? Another P player trying to get some intel as well I played against a Z who did 15 Hatch, and as soon as I scouted it, I put down 3 more Gates (i started with my normal 13 Gate 17 Core economy build)...I rallied my 1st 2 zealots and just attacked in an attempt to pressure but the zerglings morphed in off the 2 hatcheries just as I got there (this was on LT cross position by the way) and defended it. As a Z player, do you have any advice on making effective pressure to an opening 15 Hatch zerg?? Just dont feel like im doing it effectively.
The response you want to hear is drop a Forge immediately and zealot/cannon rush assuming the map distance is not cross position against a hatch first zerg. This strat as stated by IdrA and MACHINE will outright kill a hatch first zerg and as a result they do not hatch first against protoss anymore
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If you scout an opponent massing an army in his base (ex: MM, zeal/immortals) at which point do you stop droning in order to prepare for his push? Do you build like enough speedlings/crawlers to defend X% of their army then drone up to the point where they move out?
Here's how it feels for me ATM:
- Waiting till they move out, you risk not having enough stuff when they arrive.
- On the other hand if you over-prepare for a push that never comes, or comes much later, you're giving away economy for army that would likely still be inferior to his so you can't use it offensively yet.
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How can you react if you scout Stargate+Phoenixes when you're still on Hatch and no Evo up? Or do you pre-emptively Lair/Evo when you fear something is up?
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On November 24 2010 17:04 nesf wrote:
In ZvP, has the roach range upgrade made Roach/Hydra more viable than Roach/Hydra/Corruptor vs Colossi? Can we use Roaches similar to Marauders to run in and snipe Colossi and gain the advantage of a unit that is still useful after the Colossi have fallen versus the Corruptor?
In ZvT, is feinting muta with 6-10 and then transitioning into Baneling/Infestor/Roach worth considering over more standard muta ball herding play?
1st question: no you can't. You could but it's not profitable. if the toss is quick he can back his colossus and trap your roaches in forcefields. That kind of mistake can cost you a game. vs colossus the best way to approach them mid game is with a few corruptors and a good multi flank attack with lings/roaches.
2nd question: Yes. with your initial 6-10 mutas if you scout multiple factory, you should stop making mutas right away and transition back to roaches and lings. save your gaz for upgrade and hive tech.
if it's only rax with 1 fact, then it's probably marines/tanks so instead of roaches you can make banelings/ling mutas with a few(1-2) infestors.
Hope that helped.
SLush
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On November 24 2010 23:26 Phrencys wrote:
How can you react if you scout Stargate+Phoenixes when you're still on Hatch and no Evo up? Or do you pre-emptively Lair/Evo when you fear something is up?
normally my 2nd 100 gaz goes towards a Lair, If you scout stargate in the meantime you can make a 3rd queen(to defend aganist possitble voidsrays) and as soon as Lair finishes you can make a hydra den. A Hydra + Roaches or Hydras + ling timing attack could be hard for a toss to defend if he goes phoenixes. Dont forget if you see only a phoenix in your base it could be an illusion.
SLush
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Nice thread, thanks guys!
My question(i'm a goldish zerg/random player):
In other strategy threads about the zerg i often see the advice that until the game is moving in an obvious direction you should only have enough army so that you can barely defend a push by making a full production round of army units when the opponent moves out.
I've been wondering for a while how this works in combination with one of the core rules - 'keep your resources low'.
For example if you feel like you need 8 roaches to defend, you should have 600 minerals available, which at least feels like you're not spending enough.
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thanks root-guys for making this thread. i think non-zergs can also profit a lot from this, so i really appreciate your work here.
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I wonder what the pros will answer on this one. But for me the obvious is that you should a) have enough income at this point to produce the required defense, b) scout preemptively to build a few forcers before (you won't macro a 100 food army in one go). c) if you feel you won't be able to defend in time, delay the push via harrass / runby in the main / other cutesie tactics.
In short: keep your money low still applies. The only time I stockpile is when I wait for a specific tech building to finish and I know I have enough money and supply to build the new units.
Now pros will show better insight than that I'm sure
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Hi I have a few questions for zvp
1. When seeing your opponent has forge fast expanded and is Chronoboosting Probes from both nexi should you try to match him in worker count or go all in with roaches, or sacrifise some econ to put pressure on him with a few units?
2. Whenever A puts early pressure on me with 4 gate he makes me build units and sacrifice economy, when he transitions into Collosus I never get my curroptors out in time due to having to mass an army and not getting gas in time at expo... after the initial pressure from toss should I all in counter attack or?
3. You scout a 4 gate you know its coming, how many gas gisyers should I have? and When should i transition into lair?
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Love this thread! Thank you so much!
My question:
Against 6 gate into robo - Colossus, I find myself maxed with roach/hydra (and have spire up, for scouting colossi), and I feel I have to "sacrifice" some of the roach/Hydra to get corrupters out.
Do I stop producing Hydras at a moment to get out corrupters? Or should I keep "sacrificing" units to keep the gateway units low?
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 17:04 nesf wrote:
In ZvP, has the roach range upgrade made Roach/Hydra more viable than Roach/Hydra/Corruptor vs Colossi? Can we use Roaches similar to Marauders to run in and snipe Colossi and gain the advantage of a unit that is still useful after the Colossi have fallen versus the Corruptor?
In ZvT, is feinting muta with 6-10 and then transitioning into Baneling/Infestor/Roach worth considering over more standard muta ball herding play?
In ZvP Roach / Hydra / Ling is a viable composition. Its all going to depend on the ammount of collosi and the ammount of stalkers. If they have a very stalker / collosi heavy army hydra / roach / corrupter is still the way to go. If they have more zealots, or storm I like roach / infestor / hydra. Basically what I'm trying to say is if you can read your opponent and hes spending ALOT of money on collosi then you should get corruptors regardless.
ZvT is a very interesting match up right now. Baneling / Infestor / Roach is a very strong combo especially with those few mutalisks. If you add in zerglings you have a interesting triple threat that can deal with tanks as well as bio balls. Muta / Ling forcing them into marine / tank play and then going infestor roach can be very strong. So yes its worth considering.
@Genocide
There are several ways to deal with mass thors. If its a very early push then the best way to deal with a marine / thor (only!) push would have to be Baneling / Roach / Ling. If you have time to get into an end game, perhaps think about adding in some ultras, and / or infestors. Its all about massing though. You can't run in a straight line against the terran ball, with roaches you'll have to come from at least 2 directions, say the front and a side. You want all your units attacking his, and you want to get a good surround on some units.
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 18:11 osten wrote:
I have a problem lately, which is that I get an economical lead, sometimes even three base against one, mostly because I successfully defended an attack he did. I then get tech & upgrades, saturation and concentrate on getting the counter to whatever he is going for. Then suddenly he attacks, I see it in time, I have like 200/200 and more food ready, and it consists of mainly the counter to whatever he makes, and I almost always have him beat in both attack and armor upgrades.
Then I die. Because he had some redicilously strong unit such as siege tank or colossus or voidrays etc. Sometimes I outfood him 50 food and he stil a-moves me because his units are so much stronger.
So I produce 200 more food while he kills expansion of his choice, but he just steamrolls that too. Then he takes his second base.
Ok hehe so maybe I exaggerated but I hope you get my point. I am always going for macro/ 200/ max upgrades/ max production as a goal before I finish him because anything else is dangerous. And it's hard to survive earlygame, but when I get maxxd, his base productions and units are better with 3 less expansions and less upgrades ready. It feels like zerg is useless in the beginning and end. And middle. What to do? Halp
And @ LeCaster
This is a problem a lot of high level Zergs are having versus strong Protoss and Terran. Terran right now we can deal with end game well with muta / ling / baneling / infestor into Ultralisks or Broodlords. Dealing with protoss end game is a different story.
The best way to deal with this is if you know your army of 200/200 is a bad composition versus your opponents army you want to save up both minerals and larva to get the correct composition versus the protoss. You then want to use your army to either A. Destroy his production facilities or B. Kill some of his economy. If you kill some of his army all the better, but its important that you do some damage to his ability to expand and build more units that will counter your new composition. Then while building up your next army you can do things like drops, or more harass with lings. Its by no means easy, but if the protoss then attacks you'll want to defend it with your new army composition asap. Vs. Colosus I recomend Ultralisks / Hydralisks / Infestors (Gas heavy much?) Vs. everything else I think its probably the best idea to get 8-9 Brood Lords and keep units around them to make sure stalkers can't blink under them. Also its very important that you keep your upgrades up, and start them fairly quickly. You want to be at least even with the protoss in upgrades. Hope that helped a little bit, but I know its not easy to deal with a maxed protoss!
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 19:06 MandoRelease wrote:
Awesome Thread, here's my question.
Early game I never know if I should see my units/buildings in terms of larvae or in term of ressources. In particular when I go 14 hatch. I find there's a 2 minutes window where either going spine crawler or zerglings has a huge impact on the game.
Against Terran it is particularly hard for me because if I make 1 spine crawler after seeing a early second rax and he doesn't attack, i find myself thinking i should have made zerglings instead. But then again, I don't know what should be my view on things, larvae or ressources.
What are the advantages and downsides of each way of seeing my units ?
EDIT : By ressources i mean only minerals and gaz. I know larvae can be considered a ressource as well, but not for the purpose of my question.
Very interesting question... I feel that versus Terran early you're going to want to be extra defensive. Whether you do that by zerglings or spinecrawlers is somewhat a question of personal choice. The benefit to zergling is that you'll have an army for later and its more of an offensive unit. The benefit to spinecrawlers is that its stronger against the "Foxer" push and that you can get more drones. The "Safest" way is spinecrawlers, but either way you should get several zerglings to scout the Terran and to help block your ramp and stop hellions from running right on past. Hope that helped.. if it didn't you could ask again!
@ dthree
The problem with the "Foxer" style is they split up their marines and so the banelings can't hit them all initially. Muta / Ling / Baneling / Infestor is still the way to go. The reason for this is that you can Fungal growth the marines that are up, and just Move the banelings near them and keep them moving, (on a seperate hotkey from your muta / ling ) so you don't lose them all. You'll want your muta / ling to clean up the rest of the army. The reason I love this composition is for its mobility, and ability to stop dropships. I will say this doesn't work so well against Thor, Banshee Marine.... but thats a whole different question! :D
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 23:21 Phrencys wrote:
If you scout an opponent massing an army in his base (ex: MM, zeal/immortals) at which point do you stop droning in order to prepare for his push? Do you build like enough speedlings/crawlers to defend X% of their army then drone up to the point where they move out?
Here's how it feels for me ATM:
- Waiting till they move out, you risk not having enough stuff when they arrive.
- On the other hand if you over-prepare for a push that never comes, or comes much later, you're giving away economy for army that would likely still be inferior to his so you can't use it offensively yet.
This is a Hugely situational question. Against Protoss I find it smart to get at least one spinecrawler and to get speed zerglings in a somewhat large number. The reason for this isn't that their good against zealots, but there so you can counter the protoss if he leaves his base with his army. You can then prevent any reinforcements from coming and then go back to your nat and help flank his army.Versus simply a hugely heavy MM push your going to want to consider banelings very early (before lair) if they do it very quickly. (foxer push) I'll generally stop drone production whenever I know that I have a slightly good lead on economy over my opponent. That way when I just completly make army I know that if I stop it , I'm still ahead on economy. Hope that helped!
@Nazza
Its better economy to get your hatchery first. Its not too huge of a difference, but there is one. There is no solid counter to Thor on your cliff that I know of. There are ways that you can get somewhat even. Getting dropship and taking your 3rd early and if they dropship your cliff, you can dropship their main and just move your drones to your 3rd. (A base without a cliff) I find that their is no really good counter versus this, and that no matter what against a good Terran you will be a little bit behind.
@Salami
Yea that's pretty much how you kill a 14 Hatchery.
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Just wanted to add my thanks to Root, so great when top level players are prepared to spend time helping others learn to be a better gamer! :D
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On November 24 2010 12:58 Communism wrote:Show nested quote +
On November 24 2010 09:12 CatZ.root wrote:
on steppes I open with 7 pool against protoss and I do a 4 drone harrass against Terran, what this does and why it works for me is because it grants me map control afterwards and me being the aggressor will guarantee in most cases that I have control of the game to some extend.
Great thread guys, there is a lot of good information being thrown around, and thanks to all the root players helping out. After reading Catz post It got me thinking about sending drones (3-4) to harass SCVs building the wall and generally mess with a T. What kind of damage do you expect to inflict with this kind of harassment, i mean i can see how it could help, but what exactly is your mission with those drones. Also wondering how you guys actually go about implementing this in game to maximize the advantage you get, such as supply timing to send the drones, number of drones to send or any other insight anyones got.
many things are acomplished, the follow up is not super aggressive, but he has to prepare for it. with micro as 4 drones regening ar emuch more effective than 4 scvs, terrans need to pull at least 5 scvs that are NOT mining to deal with the harrass, or battle my drones with 4 (i won't engage anymore than 4) i will usually delay the barracks as well by killing the scv building it. this will delay their orbital command (also delayed when they pull 5 scvs) consider also the fact that terrans have to use their scvs for building so when they pull 5+ plus 1 or 2 building stuff they barely have anything on their mineral line while im mining just fine, at the worst case scenario i won't kill anything but he will have to delay his oc by using his scvs to defend as well as changing or losing the scv building the barracks. later oc = later mule which means less income. worst case scenario using my 4 drone rush doesn't seem to set me behind at all where best case scenario (killing 2-3 scvs+) will almost guarantee me a win. Also me being aggressive prevents them from being to aggressive and gives me a safe way out, and ofc great scouting information early on.
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Thanks for this guide you guys! It most definitely helps me out in my games now!
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On November 25 2010 02:21 Sheth wrote:
Versus simply a hugely heavy MM push your going to want to consider banelings very early (before lair) if they do it very quickly. (foxer push) I'll generally stop drone production whenever I know that I have a slightly good lead on economy over my opponent.
When you say early banes, do you mean that you go: @100gas Metabolic, @50 gas Nest, @100 Lair while droning up relying on a spine+speedlings? That sounds kind of hard to support with an early economy.
About knowing you got a good lead on your opponent's economy: how can you figure it out? Often I think I'm doing fine but then realize that I spend more larvaes/ressources on units that I should've and suddenly my opponent flies a CC to his nat and Maynards half of his SCVs.
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Thanks for the great posts!
I'm 0 - lifetime against that 6 gate attack that cuts probes in the 30s and comes with stalker/sentry off 2 base. My gut feeling is that Burrowed Roach with Ling support is the way to go, but I'm having troubles with either my Roach count being too low or Burrow showing up too late. Major things I think would help is what the optimal time this rush should be hitting me ( around between 8:00 and 8:30 is my current guess ) and how you guys are dealing with getting a sufficient Roach count + Burrow in time for the rush to hit. Are crawlers really helpful here or is it just by-luck that most successful defenses seem to use them? I tried reviewing some replays on various sites, but a lot of Zerg are still losing I guess :-\
I don't have any replays, but hopefully I explained well enough! ( p.s. I watch Catz's stream quite a lot :-D )
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What is the best unit mix for fighting against large numbers of marauders with a few marines for support to take out mutas?
I had a really long game yesterday which I did win but I was fighting with mass ultra/ling/muta vs huge numbers of marauders with like 15-20 marines to kill my mutas. It was a major pain in the ass. It felt really weird to have such a hard time against him when I was effectively on 3/3 upgrades vs his 1/1. I only really won by starving him so he couldn't take a third, but it was pretty close as he was sniping out my hatcheries with stim marauders pretty regularly.
I just wonder what I'm doing wrong in terms of unit mix and how I should go about microing this army. It seems intuitive just to mass ling/bling/muta and burn the marines with the blings but when I was doing that he was sniping and microing the marines pretty effectively against the banelings so he still had a nice chunk of marines to take out my mutas after the blings were gone.
That was one confusing game, felt like I had the lead all game and yet still took me 30 min to put him away.
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Im a P player wanting to start learning Z. Need some tips as I start. In particular:
1) It seems like most players assume zerg can out-macro T and P and hence the popularity of the 14 Hatch or 15 Hatch build. What are situations you wouldnt do this build?
2) Assuming you go 15 Hatch, what are some strong transitions from this to do against T/Z/P?
3) What are some key things I should look out for in regards to keeping macro up?
4) What are some indicators or times when you think its generally safe to drone up?
5) In the early game, to get a good eco start, we wanna drone up as much as possible but obviously you need some units/defense to stop early game attacks. How do you know what to build as 'generic defense'? I know you will probably say, scout and then build counter units. But in the early game, tats quite tough cos i'll send a zergling or two up and they have units at the top ramp to shoot them down quickly.
6) Suggestions on how to manage hatcheries better? If I have 4 hatches across the map, its hard to keep using queens to spawn on them all the time!! Do even the pros manage to keep all the hatches up with max larvae??
Heaps of questions i know but thanks!
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1) when is the 1st time you chose to spawn a creep tumor instead of inject larvae?
2) any tipps on baneling micro?
3) when my 1st extra hatch spawns, should i transfer so many drones that each base has a equal number, or do i just take a few?
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United States2095 Posts
On November 25 2010 01:54 BleaK_ wrote:
Love this thread! Thank you so much!
My question:
Against 6 gate into robo - Colossus, I find myself maxed with roach/hydra (and have spire up, for scouting colossi), and I feel I have to "sacrifice" some of the roach/Hydra to get corrupters out.
Do I stop producing Hydras at a moment to get out corrupters? Or should I keep "sacrificing" units to keep the gateway units low?
You can do either. If you go pure hydra / roach you'll have to sacrifice your army and then get a coorupter heavy army. If you save some larva that might work, but they both have upsides. Its gonna depend how colossus heavy your opponent is going.
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On November 25 2010 10:09 lux27 wrote:
1) when is the 1st time you chose to spawn a creep tumor instead of inject larvae?
2) any tipps on baneling micro?
3) when my 1st extra hatch spawns, should i transfer so many drones that each base has a equal number, or do i just take a few?
1) whenever, match dependant, I like to either spawn my first creep tumor asap off of the queen on my expo OR get an extra queen and make many many creep tumors and have it all go purple.
2) send banelings on mvoe only so that they won't explode to lings, while you have lings on attack move so that they can snipe lings coming their way to try to pick off banelings. u need 2 banelings to kill a baneling, ofc if there's more than 2 bunched up, sacrificing 2 is worth it to kill over 2, if you feel like you're ahead, trading 2 for 2 works. 3 banelings nessesary to kill a baneling while its morphing, so again, if there's 3+ banelings morphing you can explode 3+ banelings and expect to break even or pull ahead (if there's more than 3 bunched up morphing.
3) I like transfering a few only, your goal is to get saturated on both bases and to lose the minimum amount of mining time, so either you don't transfer any or transfer a few if you have 16 or over in your main. afterwards rally drones to your expansion (if you're already saturated at your main) and so on.\
hope this helps
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How do you guys actually get slowverlords into a terran's base to scout? Every time I try it he gets shot down by 3-4 marines before he can see anything worth seeing. Even if the terran is going light on barracks units and doing some fast tech, he can still put his buildings away from cliffs and such, and shoot down the overlord with the handfull of marines he has,
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Great thread, thanks for doing this.
In ZvT or ZvP, when would you decide to go for fast Metabolic Boost (let's say 14 Extractor, 14 Pool, 20-ish expand) instead of going Hatchery before Extractor (let's say 14 Pool 16 Hatch)? Is there still a need for the very fast Metabolic Boost after the Reaper nerf?
And as a second question: I saw ROOT.CatZ do a one base tactic on LT vs Terran on close air positions involving a Nydus Worm in combination with Infestor harass from the cliff. He explained the reason to do this one base opening was the possibility for drops on your cliff.
If you decide to open 1 base like that what would be the time to expand and be safe from the drops? When going one base on LT would it always involve some early aggression?
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this ones more for MACHINE because I know he and IdrA must talk strategy =D
I saw IdrA's game 2 he got what seemed to be fast observer movement. I'm assuming that is because he was confused or left in the dark as to what his opponent was getting, and I'm also assuming that it was started very close to when the lair was finished. First, plz correct me if I'm wrong on the timing and second would it be ok to get this every game? Also 3rd does he only get this to spine crawler push across lost temple?
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Thank you, Sheth, CatZ, and Slush for this thread. I saw the 4 drone harrass done by CatZ in a replay on Steppes of Wars some time ago.I believed it was vs DignitasSjow. May i know when to pull out your 4 drones to harrass? like after how many drones made etc? After the harrass, do i keep on being aggressive using roaches etc? What opening do you often go for while using this harassing tactic? Thanks!
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Once again thanks for the thread, there's alot of useful information going around
A small question, when going roaches vs terran mech, after getting +1 carapace what upgrades should you get next for your ground units? Is it worthwhile getting the ranged attack upgrade or the melee for lings/blings and to prepare for ultra upgs. Thanks
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I have a question :3
How many drones should I transfer if i get an expo up..
For example I have 18 drones in main.. how many should I transfer to achieve the best income?
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i got one too
i have problems vs a terran in lategame, who goes thor heavy. usually i already have ultras and am maxed, but if he's maxed too with many thors, they just chew my ultras. no chance. even the next wave of ultras will not always be enough to kill all his thors, and by that time, thors just kill 2 or 3 bases because the ultras need sooo long to rebuild.
so if i see him moving out with mass thors, which unitcompoistion should i have?
maby ultra-ling infestor with parasite?
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Cant thank you guys enough for this thread. Full of fantastic information. Sheth and Slush thanks so much for your time responding here and making this one of the, if not THE, highest level resource available for any race. And a special thanks to Catz for his contribution, but also his stream which is just fantastic and everything ROOT gaming is doing for the community right now. I Digress...
So im just starting to play zerg, and pretty bad thus the low level question here, and setting up the type of mechanics I want to be practicing. Back near the beta which is the last time i really looked into the race, something like binding all queens to one hotkey and then using the minimap to inject larva was an intresting and growing strategy. But now it seems hatch+queen individual ctrl groups is beyond standard.
Wondering what happened to the queens on one/mini map option. Assume it has to do with the ocassional bugs associated and lack of finite control? Just curious these types of things as I try to develop my style.
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Lately against protoss, i've been going mutas, which i usually do not like doing. But I've actually been winning with this build, and im starting to feel more comfortable against protoss, my worst match up.
So, usually I will get about 12 mutas, and just use them for map control and harass. After this, i get a roach warren and 2 evo chambers. So while the protoss player is getting whatever, archons, high templar, stalkers, i just run in with about 25 +2/2 roaches, and it seems to be able to win the game because they're not expecting the roaches.
Is this a good build? When I went muta I just did muta/ling > ultra, but thats the reason I never went muta, it always made me lose. What do you guys usually do when going muta ling? It seems just pure mutaling gets owned by storm so easily.
thanks
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United States2095 Posts
On November 27 2010 04:54 Rockondudes wrote:
I have a question :3
How many drones should I transfer if i get an expo up..
For example I have 18 drones in main.. how many should I transfer to achieve the best income?
Realisicly you want to transfer half minus [(however many your going to have for gas)/2]. So, say you have 18 in your main and your planning on getting 2 gas in your main, thats 9 - (7/2) so I'd say send over around 5-6 drones. The reasoning for this is that your wanting to keep both areas equal, and your going to be spending drones to make the extractors and 3 on each gas (the 7). You divide that by 2 because its how this 2 base stuff works, gotta take into account the other side is not spending those. It gets kinda tricky.. but I'm pretty sure what I'm saying here is right!
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United States2095 Posts
On November 27 2010 06:02 nehl wrote:
i got one too
i have problems vs a terran in lategame, who goes thor heavy. usually i already have ultras and am maxed, but if he's maxed too with many thors, they just chew my ultras. no chance. even the next wave of ultras will not always be enough to kill all his thors, and by that time, thors just kill 2 or 3 bases because the ultras need sooo long to rebuild.
so if i see him moving out with mass thors, which unitcompoistion should i have?
maby ultra-ling infestor with parasite?
Mass ling / Infestor / Ultras (with parasite) are not the best composition vs. a complete thor build terran. If you've let the terran reach this terrifying state of affairs its best to get 10+ broodlords, or just Ultra / Infestor, and a few lings but NO paraiste, realisticly its not beneficial to me. Use the infestors to shoot eggs and fungal growth. Realisticly you shoudln't let your opponent get maxed with 200/200 thors, your army will never be able to kill them all, but it might be able to take most!
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United States2095 Posts
On November 27 2010 06:43 my0s wrote:
Cant thank you guys enough for this thread. Full of fantastic information. Sheth and Slush thanks so much for your time responding here and making this one of the, if not THE, highest level resource available for any race. And a special thanks to Catz for his contribution, but also his stream which is just fantastic and everything ROOT gaming is doing for the community right now. I Digress...
So im just starting to play zerg, and pretty bad thus the low level question here, and setting up the type of mechanics I want to be practicing. Back near the beta which is the last time i really looked into the race, something like binding all queens to one hotkey and then using the minimap to inject larva was an intresting and growing strategy. But now it seems hatch+queen individual ctrl groups is beyond standard.
Wondering what happened to the queens on one/mini map option. Assume it has to do with the ocassional bugs associated and lack of finite control? Just curious these types of things as I try to develop my style.
Some people still do it. In GSL one zerg did it, and we then watched 4 queens with full energy attack a protoss base. That sort of thing happens when one hatchery is destroyed thus screwing up the queens. Its just something like that, that makes that style somewhat obsolete unless your very used to it. (At least thats my oppinon, I'm sure there are plenty of ppl who still use it happily!)
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United States2095 Posts
On November 27 2010 07:24 tieya wrote:
Lately against protoss, i've been going mutas, which i usually do not like doing. But I've actually been winning with this build, and im starting to feel more comfortable against protoss, my worst match up.
So, usually I will get about 12 mutas, and just use them for map control and harass. After this, i get a roach warren and 2 evo chambers. So while the protoss player is getting whatever, archons, high templar, stalkers, i just run in with about 25 +2/2 roaches, and it seems to be able to win the game because they're not expecting the roaches.
Is this a good build? When I went muta I just did muta/ling > ultra, but thats the reason I never went muta, it always made me lose. What do you guys usually do when going muta ling? It seems just pure mutaling gets owned by storm so easily.
thanks
I geuss all I can say is to keep practicing it. Muta / Roach is a very strong combination. Blink stalkers is probably going to be a hard counter to this build before you get out your roaches, and even then its can be countered well by protoss. All bo's including this one have their place, but you have to do it in relation to what the protoss is doing. This won't work every time, you shouldn't use it every time. Just some things to think about!
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United States2095 Posts
On November 25 2010 07:41 bellyfrog wrote:
What is the best unit mix for fighting against large numbers of marauders with a few marines for support to take out mutas?
I had a really long game yesterday which I did win but I was fighting with mass ultra/ling/muta vs huge numbers of marauders with like 15-20 marines to kill my mutas. It was a major pain in the ass. It felt really weird to have such a hard time against him when I was effectively on 3/3 upgrades vs his 1/1. I only really won by starving him so he couldn't take a third, but it was pretty close as he was sniping out my hatcheries with stim marauders pretty regularly.
I just wonder what I'm doing wrong in terms of unit mix and how I should go about microing this army. It seems intuitive just to mass ling/bling/muta and burn the marines with the blings but when I was doing that he was sniping and microing the marines pretty effectively against the banelings so he still had a nice chunk of marines to take out my mutas after the blings were gone.
That was one confusing game, felt like I had the lead all game and yet still took me 30 min to put him away.
This can be a VERY annoying unit composition. Marauders hard counter your ultralisks so well. Perhaps try staying with only ling / muta / baneling / infestor, and building up some broodlords while doing it. If that fayls, it should be because he has plenty of vikings, and at that point go back to ultralisks. At least thats what I've been doing!
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United States2095 Posts
On November 25 2010 10:09 lux27 wrote:
1) when is the 1st time you chose to spawn a creep tumor instead of inject larvae?
2) any tipps on baneling micro?
3) when my 1st extra hatch spawns, should i transfer so many drones that each base has a equal number, or do i just take a few?
1. Depends on the match up and the build order, gotta be more specific I'm not gonna type every bo I use and everytime I use creep. Basic tip, its VERY quick.
2. Put them on a seperate hotkey from all your other units and simply move them, look for marines, don't leave them by tanks, stuff like that.
3. Heres the formula that you should use generally : (Total Drones - However many Drones your going to make into gas at your main) / 2
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United States2095 Posts
On November 25 2010 15:58 djengizz wrote:
Great thread, thanks for doing this.
In ZvT or ZvP, when would you decide to go for fast Metabolic Boost (let's say 14 Extractor, 14 Pool, 20-ish expand) instead of going Hatchery before Extractor (let's say 14 Pool 16 Hatch)? Is there still a need for the very fast Metabolic Boost after the Reaper nerf?
And as a second question: I saw ROOT.CatZ do a one base tactic on LT vs Terran on close air positions involving a Nydus Worm in combination with Infestor harass from the cliff. He explained the reason to do this one base opening was the possibility for drops on your cliff.
If you decide to open 1 base like that what would be the time to expand and be safe from the drops? When going one base on LT would it always involve some early aggression?
1. It completely depends on the match up, and your starting build order. For both matchups it can pay off to get it quickly, it just depends on what you want to do. (Do you want to use speedlings to pressure and defend vs. protoss or are you happy with spinecrawlers / queens?)
2. Whenever you see your opponent isn't dropping tanks at your natural and whenver you know you can deal with it if he is! (At least thats what I'd do!)
@ Everyone who posted a question --
LET ME KNOW IF I MISSED YOUR QUESTION and my apologies if I did! = )
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okay so here's the situation, i'm zerg he's terran on delta, i'm 6 and he's 3. i scout out standard rax, see him putting a factory at the front and a bunker and a tech going down, i fear early hellion and/or banshees so i put up spines, get extra lings and with the minerals i could spare between saturating my two bases and woop, double starport, 2 banshees in my base and 2 more on the way and all i've got is 3 queens and a unfinished creep road between my bases since the distance between them is so long.
i probably should have sacced an ovie but i completely forgot it, i did however have it by his backdoor expo which spotted the banshees.
my question: if i scout rax and factory, when should i go lair? and should i really cut drone production for a pretty long time just to get the extra queen up directly after the first one? or else i won't be able to put down the creep fast enough it seems. however 150 minerals is a spine less in my nat against hellion harass or even delayed ling speed.
oh and it was a 14 hatch 14 pool with no spotting on gas timings as i scouted wrong way twice
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CatZ:
Your 4drone rush on steppes, recently you replayed the terran that made the post discrediting it, and proceeded to rape him effortlessly.
But it did raise the question for me, despite you killing his building SCV eventually, and him pulling 6 SCVs the majority of the time. If he pulled one of those away and completed his wallin, or even blocked it with an scv or 2, wouldnt the rush be more or less a loss for you? Considering you would lose all 4 drones.
Seems once more people get used to this is going to have to be abandoned vs a wall-in. Maybe leave a drone to block, but then u only have 3... I dunno. Love it so far, but worried if it has a future.
*edit* download The Shins already.
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Hey guys, I just started a thread about my thoughts on pool before hatch vs. hatch before pool and I'd love to get some pro input on it. Drop by if you have time:
[D] Is hatch first really more economical?
Thanks in advance!
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Most of my losses are from some of the following situations, and I'm just wondering if they happen to you guys too.
-Underestimating the number of units warpgates can pump out and accidentally droning too hard
-Enemy is between all your hatcheries, so all your rallied units die in separate mini-massacres to his main force
-Fending off cheese (like cannon rush / proxy 2gate), then expanding like 5 times and droning so hard the follow up (usually void rays) kills you haha.
Thanks!
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can any root guys post replays please (or link, i think catz posts his somewhere) of zvp, particularly when the toss fast expands. i am completely lost in this matchup when protoss FE.
when do you take your third base? i know its map/game specific but some general tips would be helpful.
thanks!
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Hi guys! I am playing zerg from start of my adventure with sc2 and now I am pretty high level because about 2,2k diamond. To this point It was fairly easy, but now I got huge problems with Terran and Protoss so I want to ask you some questions.
Vs. Terran
1. We got situation like this: I went 15 hatch 14 pool and I am massing drones. How can I know that he is going to push me? In 90% of games Terran goes with bio ball push or with thor, scvs and some rins and I have nothing cause I was making eco. On the other hand I start doing roaches but one minute later I see expo from him. Then I have some units but no economy and he overmacro me.
2. What is the best counter for pure terran mech? I tried ultra, ling, bling and infestor but Ultralisk are focusing hellio while thors are taking them down very quickly and lings are taken down by tanks. I tried BL but counter for this is very very easy (vikings). So what then?
Vs. Protoss
Vs protoss I got only one question: How the f*** can I scout him?? When I try to sac my Overlord Stalkers take it down before I can see anything. It is for me impossible to play without information and in ZvP I just can't scout. I dont know if there are going to be blink stalkers or 4 warpgate or mby he is planning void rays. Should I drone up or make units?. Tech or mass? I am never sure...
PS. Your thread is great, keep doing it guys, It is fantastic!
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Hey doods! I've recently started playing zerg (switched from terran because I don't really like the style of play) but I'm pretty lost. I know generally what unit compositions I need and I'm learning to react but, I'm used to a structured play (getting X building at X of X food, and so on). My question is, can this be done for zerg, should it be done for zerg and if not should I just be taking a general note of when is a good idea to get tech structures? (for example baneling nest while lair is morphing vs T or hydra after you have a decent number of roaches vs P?)
Thanks, root rocks.
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i'm a relatively good zvz player. if i scout hatch first, one base roach, or one base muta, i will almost always win.
but the one thing that i have a huge problem with is the occasional zerg that still goes banelings. i simply have no idea how i am to properly handle that. i don't want to get roaches, because that gives him the freedom to expand. i don't want to open speedling, either, as generally i just lose the lings. what do you feel is the best way to handle baneling openings?
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What are your guys thoughts on one-basing? Is there ever an advantage to it or is it always better to expand?
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This is great and would love if you (or someone else) would keep updating this with community Q&A input.
Thanks for sharing.
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United States2095 Posts
On November 27 2010 08:37 lindn wrote:
okay so here's the situation, i'm zerg he's terran on delta, i'm 6 and he's 3. i scout out standard rax, see him putting a factory at the front and a bunker and a tech going down, i fear early hellion and/or banshees so i put up spines, get extra lings and with the minerals i could spare between saturating my two bases and woop, double starport, 2 banshees in my base and 2 more on the way and all i've got is 3 queens and a unfinished creep road between my bases since the distance between them is so long.
i probably should have sacced an ovie but i completely forgot it, i did however have it by his backdoor expo which spotted the banshees.
my question: if i scout rax and factory, when should i go lair? and should i really cut drone production for a pretty long time just to get the extra queen up directly after the first one? or else i won't be able to put down the creep fast enough it seems. however 150 minerals is a spine less in my nat against hellion harass or even delayed ling speed.
Lindn, its very important for you to use your early economy properly. If you see your opponent going barracks and then a factory in front, you'll want to minimize the ammount of lings you make at first, because theres not going to be that much early early pressure. If you make 1 spine crawler and 1 queen that can stop whatever early early harass the T uses on most maps. Certain maps such as Xel'naga and Delta can make this hard (Like you said) so on those maps getting a second spine is a good idea early. I know this seems like your using up alot of minerals, however it works well if u perhaps just delay getting gas a little bit. If you see 2 port banshees, other then getting a few extra queens I recomend throwing down a evolution chamber, and putting down a few spore crawlers in good placement. Hope that helps a little bit! (P.S. Yea sacc'ing an overlord is nessecary if u don't know the T's tech!)
@Accachtin Yea the first one happens to me ALOT. The second one, if they get that close to your hatcheries your in trouble man! And the third one is pretty close to the second one! =)
oh and it was a 14 hatch 14 pool with no spotting on gas timings as i scouted wrong way twice
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United States2095 Posts
On November 28 2010 02:28 Netto. wrote:Hi guys! I am playing zerg from start of my adventure with sc2 and now I am pretty high level because about 2,2k diamond. To this point It was fairly easy, but now I got huge problems with Terran and Protoss so I want to ask you some questions. Vs. Terran 1. We got situation like this: I went 15 hatch 14 pool and I am massing drones. How can I know that he is going to push me? In 90% of games Terran goes with bio ball push or with thor, scvs and some rins and I have nothing cause I was making eco. On the other hand I start doing roaches but one minute later I see expo from him. Then I have some units but no economy and he overmacro me. 2. What is the best counter for pure terran mech? I tried ultra, ling, bling and infestor but Ultralisk are focusing hellio while thors are taking them down very quickly and lings are taken down by tanks. I tried BL but counter for this is very very easy (vikings). So what then? Vs. Protoss Vs protoss I got only one question: How the f*** can I scout him?? When I try to sac my Overlord Stalkers take it down before I can see anything. It is for me impossible to play without information and in ZvP I just can't scout. I dont know if there are going to be blink stalkers or 4 warpgate or mby he is planning void rays. Should I drone up or make units?. Tech or mass? I am never sure... PS. Your thread is great, keep doing it guys, It is fantastic!
1. This is actually very simple. You should sacrifice an overlord for scouting information once you're curious what t's doing. After a while you should make an overseer to scout and infest his buildings whenever you have the extra gas and a lair.
2. You can fake Broodlords and then go ultra / ling / infestor. The infestors are doubley good, because not only do they fungal they shoot infested terrans onto tank lines, think BOOM. I prefer ultralisk vs. this pure tank style and just being smart about attacking.
VS. Protoss
It helps alot to have both an overlord on his ramp, if you can and a ling on his ramp to find his unit composition. IF you send your ling into his base every once in a while you can see his unit composition and this should help a bit!
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United States2095 Posts
On November 28 2010 06:55 LolaLA wrote:
Hey doods! I've recently started playing zerg (switched from terran because I don't really like the style of play) but I'm pretty lost. I know generally what unit compositions I need and I'm learning to react but, I'm used to a structured play (getting X building at X of X food, and so on). My question is, can this be done for zerg, should it be done for zerg and if not should I just be taking a general note of when is a good idea to get tech structures? (for example baneling nest while lair is morphing vs T or hydra after you have a decent number of roaches vs P?)
Thanks, root rocks.
You'll want to make a certain tech structure just in general, say a baneling nest. Then you'll want to add on whatever you need to deal with the terran's knowledge of your baneling nest. So if he goes maruaders to deal with your banes, you throw down a spire. Things like that.
P.S. Thanks :D
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I'm having a problem of when to attack as Zerg. I'll usually only attack if I crush their army or have 200/200. What's generally a good time 2 attack? Should I counter attack? Do a timing push? Besides harassing with mutas of course.
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What do you do against a 1 base terran push with mauraders blue flame hellions and thors with scvs repairing? Had alot of trouble with this one.
EDIT: Only one thor and a few blue hellions with lots of mauraders but the thor tanked the spine crawlers and the hellions killed so many lings.
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United States2095 Posts
On December 01 2010 01:13 raf3776 wrote:
I'm having a problem of when to attack as Zerg. I'll usually only attack if I crush their army or have 200/200. What's generally a good time 2 attack? Should I counter attack? Do a timing push? Besides harassing with mutas of course.
It completely depends on the match up. ZvZ you want to wait till you get a perfect 200/200 army that counters theirs. ZvT you'll want to attack at a time when you have the minerals to remake a good 200/200 army that will be able to damage him. Versus Protoss you'll want to attack a good location RIGHT when you reach 200/200. (All of these are general answers there are ofc situations where that isn't the smart move! (turtle terran for instance!)
@Storm
For both of these compositions I find the best counter to be mass roach with a few infestors for both fungal and infested terrans. You can also throw in a few lings ofc! (Fungal the scvs or hellions!!)
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So good at replying fast Sheth <3
So as I switched to zerg ive been going from 50th bronze to top 10 gold so far this week. Mostly just have been destroying through basic mechanics until now, despite being unfamiliar with the race. But a huge trend ive noticed as im moving up is terrans having an identity crisis, believing in fact they are all Foxer. Even with a very minimal amount of micro 2 rax (into more rax) marine pressure is just VERY hard for me to deal with right now. I feel I can hold the initial pressure most of the time, with a few banes. But the follow up with marauder shields is usually what ends up finishing the game.
So what is the best approach here? Do I go for early speedling/bling. Or keep slow lings/bling and fast tech to lair for bling speed? Do I then combine with ling speed? Or maybe another unit as lings dont seem to cut it especially if they get a few medivacs. Really struggling with both the proper order of upgrade/unit production vs this as well as the perfect composition.
*edit* Also, as far as follow up. Unless you suggest going muta vs the above which seems very difficult to me, but you would know. Im guessing the proper transition is to just take map control, since mutas will probably be difficutl to get in numbers based on the upgrade/unit cost in gas required to deal with the early portion. So just map control/expand and just disregard trying to harass him, and just starve him out?
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I have a question about the 2 base 6 Warp Gate (or 5Gate 1Robo) +1 timing attack by protoss. I am having serious issues holding this off and I lost 3 games in a row to this today. I can post the replays when I get home from work. My question is what is the most efficient way to hold this attack off? I asked one of the guys who did it and he suggested Mutalisk harass but it seems to me that Mutalisks will come too late too few and my ground army will be very weak when he pushes.
The only thing I have had a little bit of success with is roach/hydra (not range upgraded) with spine crawlers, but even this falls to forcefields. I am at 2K diamond so the protoss all know how to forcefield well enough to completely negate my ability to defend en force.
I get out of work in 3 and a half hours I'll post my replays then. But any suggestions would be lovely.
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If I can't hotkey worth a damn, am I useless as zerg? I mean, macro I am getting better at, but hotkeying I am just terribad at.
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On December 02 2010 07:57 Alvas wrote:
If I can't hotkey worth a damn, am I useless as zerg? I mean, macro I am getting better at, but hotkeying I am just terribad at.
Not really a reason to pick or not pick a race imo. As you will just get better and better at it as you continue to play and practice.
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United States2095 Posts
On December 02 2010 06:12 my0s wrote:
So good at replying fast Sheth <3
So as I switched to zerg ive been going from 50th bronze to top 10 gold so far this week. Mostly just have been destroying through basic mechanics until now, despite being unfamiliar with the race. But a huge trend ive noticed as im moving up is terrans having an identity crisis, believing in fact they are all Foxer. Even with a very minimal amount of micro 2 rax (into more rax) marine pressure is just VERY hard for me to deal with right now. I feel I can hold the initial pressure most of the time, with a few banes. But the follow up with marauder shields is usually what ends up finishing the game.
So what is the best approach here? Do I go for early speedling/bling. Or keep slow lings/bling and fast tech to lair for bling speed? Do I then combine with ling speed? Or maybe another unit as lings dont seem to cut it especially if they get a few medivacs. Really struggling with both the proper order of upgrade/unit production vs this as well as the perfect composition.
*edit* Also, as far as follow up. Unless you suggest going muta vs the above which seems very difficult to me, but you would know. Im guessing the proper transition is to just take map control, since mutas will probably be difficutl to get in numbers based on the upgrade/unit cost in gas required to deal with the early portion. So just map control/expand and just disregard trying to harass him, and just starve him out?
Haha your question here is basically "Hey how do I deal with a foxer build?" Its a very broad question!! There are plenty of different options, you can get this speedling / bling or even no speed/bling. I find for my own prefference that I like speedling / baneling into either mutas or infestors. (I'll send an overseer into their base and if I see turrets or thor I won't go muta and instead I'll go infestor) So basically just scout the terran, make SURE SURE SURE you keep a ling on the xel'naga towers and one in front of his base. If hes close positions, make sure you always have a good ammount of lings out to flank him if he attacks or even for you to counter! Hope that helps, its kind of a broad answer but hey!
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United States2095 Posts
On December 02 2010 07:19 MorsCerta wrote:
I have a question about the 2 base 6 Warp Gate (or 5Gate 1Robo) +1 timing attack by protoss. I am having serious issues holding this off and I lost 3 games in a row to this today. I can post the replays when I get home from work. My question is what is the most efficient way to hold this attack off? I asked one of the guys who did it and he suggested Mutalisk harass but it seems to me that Mutalisks will come too late too few and my ground army will be very weak when he pushes.
The only thing I have had a little bit of success with is roach/hydra (not range upgraded) with spine crawlers, but even this falls to forcefields. I am at 2K diamond so the protoss all know how to forcefield well enough to completely negate my ability to defend en force.
I get out of work in 3 and a half hours I'll post my replays then. But any suggestions would be lovely.
Hey there MorsCerta,
Versus a very specific timing push such as this 6 warp gate or 5 warp gate with a robo, your goal for the whole thing is to be able to come out of their attack with more drones then he has probes and a fairly sizable army. So depending on his timing (how many probes does he have ? 30? 36? 43?) you'll have to make a different composition. If you ever fear him coming early and you see he's cut probes and he has this very sentry heavy build, what I recommend is that you have half of your force outside of you base (at LEAST all your speedlings at the time) so they can come around and flank. I feel the best composition for 6 warp gate is to have roaches with burrow and speedlings, vs. 5 gate robo, its more difficult, but if they have alot of immortals perhaps roach / hydra / ling. For both of these builds make sure you get a few spinecrawlers they can be very helpful! (3rd queen for transfusions is also a plus!)
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United States2095 Posts
On December 02 2010 07:57 Alvas wrote:
If I can't hotkey worth a damn, am I useless as zerg? I mean, macro I am getting better at, but hotkeying I am just terribad at.
Basically what myos said! You'll be a little worse with whatever race you play if your not hotkeying, so get to work on practicing it and stay with zerg!! : )
@Cadgers
Its always better to have one more base then your opponent. Always take your second hatch as early as you can comfortably!! (Unless your doing a timing attack from 1 base)
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Vs Zerg
1. When I play a macro game against Zergs and my Lair hatches, is it safer to go Hydra Den or Infestor Pit?
2. When my gas starts building up, is it better to spend it on Hydra or Infestors. I notice my gas breaking the 1000s when massing Roach/Hydra.
Vs Toss
1. What is the best/safest lair tech opening against Toss? I usually go Muta/Ling against Toss so I go Spire when my Lair hatches but I feel like its not the safest decision because Muta/Ling is so vulnerable at small numbers.
2. When going Hydra/Roach and you scout a double Robo Collosi, whats a good Corruptor to Collosus ratio? Do you stay on Hydra/Roach/Corruptor when you see this, or do you rush to Ultras?
Vs Terran
1. I mainly go Muta/Ling/Baneling with the majority of my gas into Mutas. If I get countered by Mass Thor/Hellion/Marine, is it worth continuing with the Muta/Ling/Baneling or would it be better to go Roach/Hydra/Infestor. I know if I suddently switch to Roach/Hydra/Infestor, I wouldnt have the upgrades to back up this army
Thanks in advance for the help
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On December 02 2010 09:07 Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 07:19 MorsCerta wrote:
I have a question about the 2 base 6 Warp Gate (or 5Gate 1Robo) +1 timing attack by protoss. I am having serious issues holding this off and I lost 3 games in a row to this today. I can post the replays when I get home from work. My question is what is the most efficient way to hold this attack off? I asked one of the guys who did it and he suggested Mutalisk harass but it seems to me that Mutalisks will come too late too few and my ground army will be very weak when he pushes.
The only thing I have had a little bit of success with is roach/hydra (not range upgraded) with spine crawlers, but even this falls to forcefields. I am at 2K diamond so the protoss all know how to forcefield well enough to completely negate my ability to defend en force.
I get out of work in 3 and a half hours I'll post my replays then. But any suggestions would be lovely. Hey there MorsCerta, Versus a very specific timing push such as this 6 warp gate or 5 warp gate with a robo, your goal for the whole thing is to be able to come out of their attack with more drones then he has probes and a fairly sizable army. So depending on his timing (how many probes does he have ? 30? 36? 43?) you'll have to make a different composition. If you ever fear him coming early and you see he's cut probes and he has this very sentry heavy build, what I recommend is that you have half of your force outside of you base (at LEAST all your speedlings at the time) so they can come around and flank. I feel the best composition for 6 warp gate is to have roaches with burrow and speedlings, vs. 5 gate robo, its more difficult, but if they have alot of immortals perhaps roach / hydra / ling. For both of these builds make sure you get a few spinecrawlers they can be very helpful! (3rd queen for transfusions is also a plus!)
See the thing is, they poke when they expand with the 3 warp gates just to see if they can end the game, if I don't have enough units/SC to defend I'll just lost right there, in the meantime they are producing out of all 3 warpgates and building probes constantly. But I don't know if/when they cut probes DURING the game because I am being pressured. I don't know if they decided to just go all in 3gate +1, continue producing probes or if they tech up to robo/stargate/twilight. If I waste resources on speed ovies I will likely die at this point, if I build units I can't get enough drones, and if I get the drones I need my army isn't large enough to defend the poke.
This was the first 3 times I have really faced well done 6 gate+ 1 pushes but it seems like a very fine line between success and loss.
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Re-asking since you missed it the first time:
How do you guys actually get slowverlords into a terran's base to scout? Every time I try it he gets shot down by 3-4 marines before he can see anything worth seeing. Even if the terran is going light on barracks units and doing some fast tech, he can still put his buildings away from cliffs and such, and shoot down the overlord with the handful of marines he has.
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This is what i love about the Zerg race. Just playing Zerg makes you feel like part of a good community, theres always a lot of Zerg related discussion going on. Thanks for this sheth.
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On December 02 2010 14:03 Lavitage wrote:
Re-asking since you missed it the first time:
How do you guys actually get slowverlords into a terran's base to scout? Every time I try it he gets shot down by 3-4 marines before he can see anything worth seeing. Even if the terran is going light on barracks units and doing some fast tech, he can still put his buildings away from cliffs and such, and shoot down the overlord with the handful of marines he has.
Ive actually been struggling with this a lot too. Basically makes ovy speed a MUST immediately unless you happen to know his tech based on unit counting due to harass.
One thing ive seen IdrA do a few times is do a multi-pronged scout with a slow overlord coming in from a north/south or east/west position. Which has a much better chance at one of them scouting tech.
Although if its a highly skilled player who is very set on you not scouting him it almost seems impossible. Which really feeds into my concern that right now its VERY VERRRRRY difficult to both be able to have enough army to hold off a all-in timing from a terran, AND also have enough econ going that you can keep up with him if he decides to not all-in
Maybe Sheth or someone can expound or comment on this, but it seems to be a real concern imo at the moment. And it seems to almost come down to coin flipping, which makes me sad. But I also could be very wrong and just not fully comprehend the state of the matchup right now.
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How can I make a group of zerglings mutate into banelings all at once instead of individually mutating each one? I imagine it would be the same sort of method that would allow me to have multiple infestors throw infested terrans all at once too. I have tried highlighting all of the units and pressing the corresponding hotkey, but that never seems to work.
I combed several topics/posts looking for the solution to no avail, so I apologize if the answer to this simple question can easily be found elsewhere.
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On December 03 2010 05:15 ChevyBlazer wrote:
How can I make a group of zerglings mutate into banelings all at once instead of individually mutating each one? I imagine it would be the same sort of method that would allow me to have multiple infestors throw infested terrans all at once too. I have tried highlighting all of the units and pressing the corresponding hotkey, but that never seems to work.
I combed several topics/posts looking for the solution to no avail, so I apologize if the answer to this simple question can easily be found elsewhere.
Ctrl + press zergling - then hold/press E
Just make sure there are no other units selected in the group.
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On November 24 2010 06:30 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 03:32 me_viet wrote:
1. What is the best response to a FE Protoss going double stargate;
1a. only seeing it after spire is halfway complete by an overseer morphed immediately after lair finished.
1b. scouting it with your first batch of mutas (6-7)
2. When is a good time to sac an overlord against T assuming you only see a naked rax and 3-4 marines at ramp?
3. Opening FE 2 base Mutas on close spawns (9-12 or 3-6) leaves you vulnerable to some sort of strong ground push but if you don't, you risk getting dropped on ledge with thors/marines/scvs, soooooo what are some things you need to do in order to force the game into a mid game that doesn't put you massively behind? 1. The thing to remember whenever protoss invests into a large number of phoenixes is the heavy investment it is, greatly reducing the strength of their ground army. Really what their goal is and what they're capable of is gaining air control, harassing, playing defensive usually while teching up to colossus. This means you should feel relatively safe from any big push coming for a length of time, of course you can't be TOO greedy as his phoenixes will notice if you have only a tiny amount of ground defense and he can take his army (really this depended on how fast he went for phoenix) and go kill you, especially with the graviton beam support. + Show Spoiler +
1a. In this specific circumstance, I would cancel the spire immediately. This would leave you around 400-500ish gas depending on your build's timings. Build a hydra den and infestation pit right away, leaving you 200-300 gas, so by the time your den finishes you leaving you about 500-600 gas (depending on your 4th gas timing). Make an infestor and some hydras, but avoid getting hydra range for now as you can't afford it, and you only want like 1 infestor so don't get energy upgrade. Drone up and add a few more hydras so you have enough to defend your main + natural, and be very careful to keep your infestor protected as it can be easily picked off by his phoenixes. It goes without saying your main and natural must be connected with creep, and after you have a decent amount of hydras gathered and are ready to fungal his phoenixes, lead with fungal and send hydras on them, just be careful not to run your infestor in attack move as well or it'll be graviton'd even while theyre fungal'd. You should be able to pick off several phoenixes, especially if you micro, even if you dont have hydra range yet. You should be going for a roach/hydra combination with upgrades, and taking a 3rd base. If he's going 2 stargate phoenix he is somewhat concerned about a hydra attack, depending on the map, and it would be ideal to do what you can to threaten, forcing cannons/extra defense. On delta quadrant it's very easy for them to just hold their ramp with force field if they only took their back expo, so this threat doesnt exist and you should focus on taking a 3rd quickly. You should eventually be going towards corruptor if they went heavy colossi. Scouting their tech is tough but necessary, use changelings and send overseers/overlords when you know phoenixes are not nearby to pick them off.
as for the concern about canceling, well canceling spire returns you 150/150, a net loss of 50/50, but the return of resources is too important right now, even if you ended up losing some resources for 'nothing.' Another thing to note is as your spire is only half done it has 50 seconds still to finish building. A hydra den takes 40 seconds to build so it's still going to finish faster, and hydras build faster than corruptors. if you went corruptor/infestor instead that's easier to defend the phoenix harass but much useless vs ground army and requires you to build more ground defense than you woudl have with hydras, and also leaves him completely unconcerned about an attack, and can more freely move around the map with his ground army.
1b. I would not like being put in this situation to be honest, so I'd make sure 1a happens instead. But if it did happen for whatever reason. I would go for an infestation pit right away, start +1 air attack if I haven't yet, and play defensive while trying to sneak expos. Once again keep infestor protected as it gains energy, and you wait till you have a large enough enough mutalisk force compared to his phoenix where you can decidedly win the straight air to air battle (for some reference, 16-17 mutas with a good fungal will win vs 10 phoenixes), and fungal them to make sure they dont flee. It seems very key to try and fungal as many phoenixes as possible, ideally right before they engage your mutas, so the phoenixes in the back that are fungaled cannot attack back. If however they saw the infestor/infestor pit they may know this and avoid flying phoenixes into danger. But that gives you map control, and you can continue with your original plan of ling/muta/spine, trying to outexpand him.
Perhaps a better response however would be to switch to hydras right away, it does feel safer and more stable, as trying to outmuscle phoenixes with mutas is dangerous/tough. Perhaps someone with more muta opening experience can enlighten us
2. This is a hard question to answer as it really really depends on what build you opened and the map as well, but if your build leaves you concerned about banshees, then around the I think around 6:30 ish mark is when you want to spot for banshees, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. If you went for the most normal speedling into lair build, it's around halfway or a little past halfway of the lair build time. If you're concerned about some kind of crazy marine allin and he doesn't have marines on the edge of his base, I'd send it in around 4:00 or so to check for extra barracks, if you see even one extra hidden one I'd just instantly make a baneling nest to be safe.
3. This is only applicable to Lost Temple. I actually think tank/thor drop is really easy to stop, easier than many other openers to deal with, but that came with lots of experience dealing with it. Part of the reason why I think so many zergs even pro zergs struggle is cus they don't abandon their plan of going early spire. You can pretty much always tell if they're going for this based on what you see at the ramp + if they took 2 gas or not. Send an overlord in about halfway while lair is building if you weren't sure, and you should have had an overlord above their main mineral ledge as well for additional scouting (focus on getting it there very early in the game). Put up 3 spines hugging your natural cliff, with 1-2 overlords placed carefully to spot for them but not too far onto the ledge. Go for roaches and drop, avoid taking the gas closest to the cliff, and if you have minerals to spare take another base at a far away main base. Use spines unburrow/burrow to stall for drop, every time the tank is sieging out of range of your spines, unburrow and move. as soon as it moves up to attack hatch, root them below the cliff, repeat this to stall time. If they went thor instead, spines do fairly well vs thor and has the same range, and anytime the thor wants to attack the hatchery it will be well in range for many of your roaches. Get roach speed and roach burrow upgrades and just go counterattack as soon as you built a huge enough army and feel safe enough to defend your expo hatch (dont worry too much about this, you can always sac the natural and transfer all workers to your far away 3rd base.) Also their natural is extremely delayed and put your ovelrord dropping creep to block their natural even more, and make sure its on hold position! (the creep will start receding much later as it will continue to goop until it dies rather than when its first attacked). Usually they cannot defend the roach counterattack and they jsut die, or you gain a significant lead, depends how they followed up. Regardless you can always retreat and you shouold be significantly ahead in economy.
As for the mutalisk vs weak to a ground attack close spawns, you should be safe if you went for a baneling nest sometime while lair was building, and I'd do this whenever I feel threatened by this and also on close spawns.
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I actually came up with the answers to all parts of 1. just now (yes even did some math/analysis with gas/timings) as I haven't really been opening spire vs protoss since the first few weeks of beta heh, I just don't like the spire opener that much vs protoss.
just tested 1b. some, 16 mutas loses to 10 phoenixes with this, but 17 vs 10, mutas win slightly
This was a very insightful response to a question that I'm sure a lot of 2200+ zergs have right now thank you. As you stated, you do not like opening spire vs toss, however, vs a FE non-stargate toss this can be quite effective as July zerg has shown us in his round of 64 GSL match on shakurus. My question is, since both a spire and a den can be effective, instead of blindly building a spire as viets question implies would you suggest waiting for an overseer's scout intel before deciding what tech path to choose, or, maybe even waiting for ovie speed upgrade and use that to scout?
Thanks and please keep up the good work!
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if I scout a terran getting early double gas on lost temple. is it ok to get mutas off 1 base before expanding?
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I don't really have a question for you guys as I do coaching sessions with  FireZerg, but I did want to just say this is an awesome thread. Especially for people who are not part of teams or do not know a lot of other zerg players.
So kudos to you guys!
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On December 03 2010 05:15 ChevyBlazer wrote:
How can I make a group of zerglings mutate into banelings all at once instead of individually mutating each one? I imagine it would be the same sort of method that would allow me to have multiple infestors throw infested terrans all at once too. I have tried highlighting all of the units and pressing the corresponding hotkey, but that never seems to work.
I combed several topics/posts looking for the solution to no avail, so I apologize if the answer to this simple question can easily be found elsewhere.
you cant have the many infestors throw infested terrans with just one click. However, if you have multiple infestors selected you can just hold T and spam leftclick everywhere. it's pretty much the same thing.
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It feels I'm approaching the matchups badly recently. I think I have most the timings for scouting, expanding and droning, thus I can manage around 52% win rate when I'm not playing horribly bad. However something seems wrong about every match I play win or lose.
Almost every match I open standard (14g/14 pool, hatch first on cross positions) I dislike roach rushes and baneling busts because I feel they don't do enough damage to justify the bad economy it gives you.
I scout at the front with my first lings, and can't generally identify if they are teching or building low tier units to kill me. My problems are the following:
- it seems that I can't really identify when to put down efficiently a tech structure. For instance I lost yesterday to a (now more common) guinea pig style void rays +phoenix opening (badly executed at that shame on me). I had lair tech, and scouted the starport early, put down a hydra den and still lost convincingly (I had 4 hydras out due to delaying gas on the early game to drone).
I also lost to a 4gate zealot rush because I threw down a roach warren too late and lings only didn't cut it.
The questions are the following I guess: when and how do you decide what tech path you'll take with zerg? I see some zergs throwing down tech structures without building the units is that an investment I need to make (especially on small maps?)?
Can I have a working game plan as zerg and force the opponent to make some tech choices as I am forced to?
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Hey champ! Stop me if you have heard this... There is a little trend I am seeing about zergs going for the 11overpool build (Extractor trick > Overlord > Pool) which has been tested in another thread, how do you see this build relative to other openers in terms of Econ/safety/aggression?
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Very helpful. Thanks a bunch. I actually plan on getting lessons from Gosu in the near future.
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Hi again,
i got another question: ZvT, midgame. T plays marines + siege tanks and slowly moves towards your 3rd. T never unsieges more than 2 tanks at one time and spreads his rines so that there's not one big ball but several smaller groups.
a. What's your favorite composition against mass rines + tanks? Muta/bling/ling? Roach/bling/ling? Infestors/bling/ling?
b. How do you engange/micro this? Let's say, there are about 6 sieged tanks and 40 marines, which are spread and do not clump at one place. I usually fail if a T is solid at spreading, since a good amount of my army is dead before it even arrives the first tank. T microes his rines away from my blings some seconds until tanks have cleaned the first wave of my ground force. I can try muta sniping tanks but if blings do not kill enough rines mutas just melt away. And the longer blings try to get to some running rines the more of them die to tanks. Do you suggest bling drops? Or just microing blings better? Any tip?
Thanks a lot.
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United States2095 Posts
On December 02 2010 14:03 Lavitage wrote:
Re-asking since you missed it the first time:
How do you guys actually get slowverlords into a terran's base to scout? Every time I try it he gets shot down by 3-4 marines before he can see anything worth seeing. Even if the terran is going light on barracks units and doing some fast tech, he can still put his buildings away from cliffs and such, and shoot down the overlord with the handful of marines he has.
Their are alot of tricks you can do with this. At first you want both of your Overlords to run around the edges at out reach of the marines. If he has 3-4 marines on both sides so he can stop overlords, you know hes doing something with marines. You can also attack his front with a few zerglings to just make him pull his marines their. Try and distract him and sent in your overlords from unexpected places! Poke in at his front, then send in the overlord!
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This may be dead forum, but i'll still ask.
Sheeth, I wanted your review on this replay
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/116814-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant
or i can just sum it up. I scouted a quick robo, so i droned and teched up. I got muta's, quite a bit of them, with roaches and lings to defend. i was on two base, when he went for his second, i went for my third. But mainly, i just kept pumping muta's. even when i saw phoenix's, i kept pumping them, cause i figured that a mass amount of muta's can handle phoenix's.
Is this the correct path to go down? and was my thinking alright. I am a high platinum, and this player was a diamon
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Hey i was wondering if i should always get hatch in the first 20 supply against non cheesers.
Thanks
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so I am reading this post trying to accomplished my goal of "not suck", so in a ZvP (plat league) I get a lot of stalkers, 2~4 colossus some zealots.
What´s the best way to use your infestors to stop this and what is best to use the lings or the roaches.
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Neural Parasite the heavy-hitters: Archons, Immortals, Colossi, Carriers, Motherships and in some cases the voidrays ( to just remove them from the game for 15 sec).
During that you want to fungal EVERY unit, and with the rest of the energy just spawn some infested terrans.
The trick with using infestors is having "food" between the infestors and the enemy, like lings, roaches and ultralisks
Protip: Before you start to spam abilities with your Infestors, put them on hold position so they won't just run into the fight and die!
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Lately I've been running into a bunch of dt rushes. Naturally I scout it so I put down 2 spines and a spore at the beggining of my base. After they scout my defense they mix the dt's into their army and morph in a many dt's as possible and then stalkers and the zealots they had before. Then they attack.
Here come the problem with the dt's. Naturally I had an overseer so my protoss opponent calmly selected 4 stalkers and target fired my overseer. That is 4 stalkers worth of dps used on my overseer instead of my army but that dps is made up for by the dt's not dying.
Then if they get into my base somehow so I morph an overseer into my base from my natural where my army was rallied. By the time my overeer finishes morphing and getting there my mineral i almost if not dead by then. I pull my drones away but there are still severe casualties for the swarm.
I have tried changing my hotkeys around so when they target the overseer I can move it back a little but then I get out of range to the dt; and it has the same effect.
Now here is my question: Should I have more than one overseer in my army and 1 at each base? I usually put spores but those are easily sniped if dt numbers are saved up.
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Why would you necro this thread? It's essentially the same thing as the zerg help me thread which is active, so post your question there.
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EPT
