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On November 24 2010 06:01 Madest wrote:
Is it possible to defend well performed 4-gate push without making roaches?
I really like muta+ling vs protoss and I heard Incontrol saying in some recorded gosucoaching lesson that you don't want to make roaches if you go muta due to wasting gas.
But mass lings and about 4 crawlers often don't work against 4-gate for me.
Should I cancel spire and go roaches if I scout it or is it possible to defend it with 5-8 crawlers and maybe evolution chamber wall off?
Another P player trying to get some intel as well 
I played against a Z who did 15 Hatch, and as soon as I scouted it, I put down 3 more Gates (i started with my normal 13 Gate 17 Core economy build)...I rallied my 1st 2 zealots and just attacked in an attempt to pressure but the zerglings morphed in off the 2 hatcheries just as I got there (this was on LT cross position by the way) and defended it.
As a Z player, do you have any advice on making effective pressure to an opening 15 Hatch zerg?? Just dont feel like im doing it effectively.
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 06:01 Madest wrote:
Is it possible to defend well performed 4-gate push without making roaches?
I really like muta+ling vs protoss and I heard Incontrol saying in some recorded gosucoaching lesson that you don't want to make roaches if you go muta due to wasting gas.
But mass lings and about 4 crawlers often don't work against 4-gate for me.
Should I cancel spire and go roaches if I scout it or is it possible to defend it with 5-8 crawlers and maybe evolution chamber wall off?
Its possible (theoreticly!) to stop it with only lings. However its VERY VERY risky. Spinecrawlers are difficult to use to hold a protoss attack on most maps. You can probably do it by cutting your economy very low and then getting mutas to try and even the eco back up. However lately with all of the cheese I feel its safer to simply get a roach warren if you think he might go 4 gate pressure. If he doesn't, and does something else then mutas might perhaps be a good idea. (I'm not a huge fan of muta in ZvP right now!) Ofc this completely depends on the situation your in and the unit composition of an opponent. Immortals collosus zealots? Sure go mutas = )
@phnix
I generally scout with my overlords only in ZvZ. I'll also scout with my first 2-4 zerglings. If they have 6 -7 pooled scouting it won't help too much. You'll already have waited long enough that your pool will be late no matter what. I think its better to simply keep the drone and get your eco up. Drones can micro against lings fairly easily now, so its not the most difficult thing in the world to hold 14 hatch against 7 pool. (without sending sunkens that is!)
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United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 07:00 Cambam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:23 Sheth wrote:On November 24 2010 04:08 Cambam wrote:
What do you do about a sentry heavy (6-8) 4 gate push? A lot people say make zerglings and feint him to make him waste force fields, but I feel like a good protoss will either not use any, or make sure he traps a lot of lings if he does. I feel like I have to mass roaches, because any zergling made is wasted against a sentry army.
Also, how do I keep the 4 gate push from waltzing behind my natural's mineral line and force fielding himself in. I'd need 5-9 spine crawlers to block the whole natural well, is that what I need?
Finally, getting your ramp forcefielded seems to be an instant-gg, how do you prevent it? Especially on maps like delta quadrant where it takes a while to get creep and thus spine crawlers over there?
Thanks! This question is not easy to answer in text. Basically what you have to do is mix roaches + zerglings. You also can't let him get to your ramp with that many sentries. You have to use roaches and lings with minimum ammount of spine crawlers and try and surround and flank him. The answer I gave in the FAQ pretty much works for this question, so check it out if you havn't already. Zergling feint's are a bad idea because you let the protoss know where your zerglings are. IF you show zerglings you better be prepared to flank and attack the protoss, letting them regain shields after your attack dies is a certain path to you GG'ing at the end of the game! Won't the zerglings be useless when he surrounds his stalker/sentry ball with forcefields, leaving only zealots for the zerglings to attack? This is why I feel building any more than 2-4 zerglings is a waste of money and larva. What am I missing?
Leaving only zerglings to attack? Hardly, if he puts his FF's to block the Zerglings (i.e. directly around his units, the roaches can attack and zerglings absorb hits) If he puts his FF to block the roaches, then you simply run the lings away and fight another time. Its imperitive to build more then 2-4 lings in most encounters. If they have enough sentries to play 20 ff's, yea dont' bother with zerglings, or use them to counter. In that case just get roach + burrow, you'll have had the time.
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On November 24 2010 09:12 CatZ.root wrote:
on steppes I open with 7 pool against protoss and I do a 4 drone harrass against Terran, what this does and why it works for me is because it grants me map control afterwards and me being the aggressor will guarantee in most cases that I have control of the game to some extend.
Great thread guys, there is a lot of good information being thrown around, and thanks to all the root players helping out. After reading Catz post It got me thinking about sending drones (3-4) to harass SCVs building the wall and generally mess with a T. What kind of damage do you expect to inflict with this kind of harassment, i mean i can see how it could help, but what exactly is your mission with those drones. Also wondering how you guys actually go about implementing this in game to maximize the advantage you get, such as supply timing to send the drones, number of drones to send or any other insight anyones got.
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In ZvP, has the roach range upgrade made Roach/Hydra more viable than Roach/Hydra/Corruptor vs Colossi? Can we use Roaches similar to Marauders to run in and snipe Colossi and gain the advantage of a unit that is still useful after the Colossi have fallen versus the Corruptor?
In ZvT, is feinting muta with 6-10 and then transitioning into Baneling/Infestor/Roach worth considering over more standard muta ball herding play?
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What would you advise doing against heavy thor builds. I have been having trouble with pushes that involve 6< thors and MMM. the banes kill all of his MMM but the thors live to wipe out the roaches (or even worse, mutas). I have multiple games now where it just seems that the terran opponent randomly decides to 1a his army into my nat and no matter what I do it works.
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I have a problem lately, which is that I get an economical lead, sometimes even three base against one, mostly because I successfully defended an attack he did. I then get tech & upgrades, saturation and concentrate on getting the counter to whatever he is going for. Then suddenly he attacks, I see it in time, I have like 200/200 and more food ready, and it consists of mainly the counter to whatever he makes, and I almost always have him beat in both attack and armor upgrades.
Then I die. Because he had some redicilously strong unit such as siege tank or colossus or voidrays etc. Sometimes I outfood him 50 food and he stil a-moves me because his units are so much stronger.
So I produce 200 more food while he kills expansion of his choice, but he just steamrolls that too. Then he takes his second base.
Ok hehe so maybe I exaggerated but I hope you get my point. I am always going for macro/ 200/ max upgrades/ max production as a goal before I finish him because anything else is dangerous. And it's hard to survive earlygame, but when I get maxxd, his base productions and units are better with 3 less expansions and less upgrades ready. It feels like zerg is useless in the beginning and end. And middle. What to do? Halp
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First, thank you ROOT zerg's for the thread 
Liken osten i find it very hard to compete with protoss in the macro game.
I have encountered a lot of protoss that do 3 gw into Expand, with a heavy sentry army. Makes it very hard to kill the expand with roachs + lings.
A this point if I don't take the expand I loose, because with bigger armies there is so much money units for protoss, they crush easily the lings/roach/hydra and stimroll your base without letting you the time to remake an army.
It's very hard to deal with protoss once they get mass stalkers + high templars. Pb with roachs is that in big numbers, half of them are not firing.
So what's a good zerg army composition versus protoss high tech units ? Is brood lords mandatory ?
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OMG ty so much for that EXTREMELY detailed response!!!
Came back, and that response was epic. Should be pasted in to op imo ;p just for how epic it was.
But in your opinion what is a good time to get the spire after you cancel it for hydras? usually when I do manage to scout the double stargate, I do what you say, but usually go a for a hydra/roach break with some infestor support, it works, to an extent, but usually the ycan stall long enough for 2 collosus to come out, so I'v ebeen thinking of grabbing neural parasite to deal with the first 2 collosus.
Another way I've been trying is to just let spire finish, and plant a hydra den + infestor pit, and then any leftover money is spent in corruptors. It seems to work slightly better but leaves less res for expo'ing and droning, but it covers the collosus angle fairly well.
How viable are these responses?
Once again ty Zelniq for the epic response, and Sheth for such a nice thread.
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Awesome Thread, here's my question.
Early game I never know if I should see my units/buildings in terms of larvae or in term of ressources. In particular when I go 14 hatch. I find there's a 2 minutes window where either going spine crawler or zerglings has a huge impact on the game.
Against Terran it is particularly hard for me because if I make 1 spine crawler after seeing a early second rax and he doesn't attack, i find myself thinking i should have made zerglings instead. But then again, I don't know what should be my view on things, larvae or ressources.
What are the advantages and downsides of each way of seeing my units ?
EDIT : By ressources i mean only minerals and gaz. I know larvae can be considered a ressource as well, but not for the purpose of my question.
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finding it cost ineffective against terrans with really good micro to go ling/baneling/muta/infestor because i cant seem to hold their pressure and maintain a 3rd base when they are flooding marines, medivacs with a few tanks and with amazing micro to split their marines and they are able to produce marines so much faster than you can banelings.
What is the best way to handle a terran who does this type of 'foxer' style?
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Is pool first actually more economic than Hatch first?
What's the best way to defend against a thor drop on LT?
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Thank you, Sheth, CatZ, and Slush for this thread and informative posts! I love seeing the big names posting here =) Your knowledge and experience always enriches the forums here at TL! I know sometimes the unappreciative nooblets can give the best players grief, but I'm so thrilled to see top level players helping us all improve.
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On November 24 2010 11:03 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:01 Madest wrote:
Is it possible to defend well performed 4-gate push without making roaches?
I really like muta+ling vs protoss and I heard Incontrol saying in some recorded gosucoaching lesson that you don't want to make roaches if you go muta due to wasting gas.
But mass lings and about 4 crawlers often don't work against 4-gate for me.
Should I cancel spire and go roaches if I scout it or is it possible to defend it with 5-8 crawlers and maybe evolution chamber wall off? Another P player trying to get some intel as well I played against a Z who did 15 Hatch, and as soon as I scouted it, I put down 3 more Gates (i started with my normal 13 Gate 17 Core economy build)...I rallied my 1st 2 zealots and just attacked in an attempt to pressure but the zerglings morphed in off the 2 hatcheries just as I got there (this was on LT cross position by the way) and defended it. As a Z player, do you have any advice on making effective pressure to an opening 15 Hatch zerg?? Just dont feel like im doing it effectively.
The response you want to hear is drop a Forge immediately and zealot/cannon rush assuming the map distance is not cross position against a hatch first zerg. This strat as stated by IdrA and MACHINE will outright kill a hatch first zerg and as a result they do not hatch first against protoss anymore
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On November 24 2010 11:03 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:01 Madest wrote:
Is it possible to defend well performed 4-gate push without making roaches?
I really like muta+ling vs protoss and I heard Incontrol saying in some recorded gosucoaching lesson that you don't want to make roaches if you go muta due to wasting gas.
But mass lings and about 4 crawlers often don't work against 4-gate for me.
Should I cancel spire and go roaches if I scout it or is it possible to defend it with 5-8 crawlers and maybe evolution chamber wall off? Another P player trying to get some intel as well I played against a Z who did 15 Hatch, and as soon as I scouted it, I put down 3 more Gates (i started with my normal 13 Gate 17 Core economy build)...I rallied my 1st 2 zealots and just attacked in an attempt to pressure but the zerglings morphed in off the 2 hatcheries just as I got there (this was on LT cross position by the way) and defended it. As a Z player, do you have any advice on making effective pressure to an opening 15 Hatch zerg?? Just dont feel like im doing it effectively.
The response you want to hear is drop a Forge immediately and zealot/cannon rush assuming the map distance is not cross position against a hatch first zerg. This strat as stated by IdrA and MACHINE will outright kill a hatch first zerg and as a result they do not hatch first against protoss anymore
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If you scout an opponent massing an army in his base (ex: MM, zeal/immortals) at which point do you stop droning in order to prepare for his push? Do you build like enough speedlings/crawlers to defend X% of their army then drone up to the point where they move out?
Here's how it feels for me ATM:
- Waiting till they move out, you risk not having enough stuff when they arrive.
- On the other hand if you over-prepare for a push that never comes, or comes much later, you're giving away economy for army that would likely still be inferior to his so you can't use it offensively yet.
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How can you react if you scout Stargate+Phoenixes when you're still on Hatch and no Evo up? Or do you pre-emptively Lair/Evo when you fear something is up?
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On November 24 2010 17:04 nesf wrote:
In ZvP, has the roach range upgrade made Roach/Hydra more viable than Roach/Hydra/Corruptor vs Colossi? Can we use Roaches similar to Marauders to run in and snipe Colossi and gain the advantage of a unit that is still useful after the Colossi have fallen versus the Corruptor?
In ZvT, is feinting muta with 6-10 and then transitioning into Baneling/Infestor/Roach worth considering over more standard muta ball herding play?
1st question: no you can't. You could but it's not profitable. if the toss is quick he can back his colossus and trap your roaches in forcefields. That kind of mistake can cost you a game. vs colossus the best way to approach them mid game is with a few corruptors and a good multi flank attack with lings/roaches.
2nd question: Yes. with your initial 6-10 mutas if you scout multiple factory, you should stop making mutas right away and transition back to roaches and lings. save your gaz for upgrade and hive tech.
if it's only rax with 1 fact, then it's probably marines/tanks so instead of roaches you can make banelings/ling mutas with a few(1-2) infestors.
Hope that helped.
SLush
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On November 24 2010 23:26 Phrencys wrote:
How can you react if you scout Stargate+Phoenixes when you're still on Hatch and no Evo up? Or do you pre-emptively Lair/Evo when you fear something is up?
normally my 2nd 100 gaz goes towards a Lair, If you scout stargate in the meantime you can make a 3rd queen(to defend aganist possitble voidsrays) and as soon as Lair finishes you can make a hydra den. A Hydra + Roaches or Hydras + ling timing attack could be hard for a toss to defend if he goes phoenixes. Dont forget if you see only a phoenix in your base it could be an illusion.
SLush
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Nice thread, thanks guys!
My question(i'm a goldish zerg/random player):
In other strategy threads about the zerg i often see the advice that until the game is moving in an obvious direction you should only have enough army so that you can barely defend a push by making a full production round of army units when the opponent moves out.
I've been wondering for a while how this works in combination with one of the core rules - 'keep your resources low'.
For example if you feel like you need 8 roaches to defend, you should have 600 minerals available, which at least feels like you're not spending enough.
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EPT
