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PvP, Collosus's Demise. New and Original Strategy. - Page 11

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
May 12 2011 22:29 GMT
#201
If you see a ton of zealots with archons, what about holding off on the forcefields and making a bunch of archon hallucinations? Same idea, if slightly less staying power, but can't be stomped on by an archon.
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
May 12 2011 22:37 GMT
#202
On May 13 2011 07:19 r3tsa wrote:
Dunno guys if u realize that, but Void Rays are the only unit now with bonus dmg vs archons.

It's not even that much, since the archon isn't armored
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
TheKRoc
Profile Joined February 2011
United States74 Posts
May 12 2011 22:37 GMT
#203
On May 11 2011 20:29 nihlon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 20:15 bonerificus wrote:
A lot of people in here misunderstand where the strength of this composition lies.

First, know that Charge is 75% of what makes this build good. You guys don't seem to understand how fucking good it is in PvP. If you haven't tried it, go and do it right now.

Here is how every fight goes vs. Colossus:

You have 4 Archons and 20 Zealots. He has 3 Colossus, 14 Zealots, and some stalkers (I think thats around even, but it doesn't really matter)

Chargelots basically always get more surface area on other Zealots straight up, (I.E. if I have 14 Chargelots and you have 14 Zealots, my Zealots will charge into a curve around yours) but to further skew the fight in your favor further you're going to have more zealots. This creates a little concave, and after a second or two Archons get to the bag guy's Zealots and rip the shit out of them (they do this anyways, but your Chargelots bundle A-moved Zealots nicely for splash). You will lose the vast majority of your Zealots here, but come away with maybe 5 or 6. Those plus three remaining Archons go up and kill the Zealots.

End of story. And forcefields don't really work, by the way.


How does the collosus play a part in this? I assume you mean collosi in the end there or?


When the Zealots die, Collossus and Stalkers can do little versus the remaining Chargelots and Archons. When you kill the other guys front line, the battle is already over (basically what I detail in the post is how easily this build kills the front line)
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
May 12 2011 22:37 GMT
#204
On May 13 2011 07:29 Resistentialism wrote:
If you see a ton of zealots with archons, what about holding off on the forcefields and making a bunch of archon hallucinations? Same idea, if slightly less staying power, but can't be stomped on by an archon.

Arcons break forcefields, gas spent on sentries would be wasted... Also hallu units get in the way of your other units if you have anything low range or melee, only useful with mass stalker/collssus or other ranged stuff.
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
BuddhaMonk
Profile Joined August 2010
781 Posts
May 12 2011 22:37 GMT
#205
Chargelot + Archon vs normal Collosus will really come down to positioning. If you can get a good spread out in the open, you have a good chance, but in a small choke, the Collosus will do better than the Archons and the charge will not factor in as much. Seems like a solid build if you can get the positioning.

TheKRoc
Profile Joined February 2011
United States74 Posts
May 12 2011 22:42 GMT
#206
On May 11 2011 20:59 Pwnographics wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 20:15 bonerificus wrote:
A lot of people in here misunderstand where the strength of this composition lies.

First, know that Charge is 75% of what makes this build good. You guys don't seem to understand how fucking good it is in PvP. If you haven't tried it, go and do it right now.

Here is how every fight goes vs. Colossus:

You have 4 Archons and 20 Zealots. He has 3 Colossus, 14 Zealots, and some stalkers (I think thats around even, but it doesn't really matter)

Chargelots basically always get more surface area on other Zealots straight up, (I.E. if I have 14 Chargelots and you have 14 Zealots, my Zealots will charge into a curve around yours) but to further skew the fight in your favor further you're going to have more zealots. This creates a little concave, and after a second or two Archons get to the bag guy's Zealots and rip the shit out of them (they do this anyways, but your Chargelots bundle A-moved Zealots nicely for splash). You will lose the vast majority of your Zealots here, but come away with maybe 5 or 6. Those plus three remaining Archons go up and kill the Zealots.

End of story. And forcefields don't really work, by the way.


Yes, because when your zealots are forcefielded so they can't hit stalkers and collosi they are very effective.

Forcefields do work, and they rip apart chargelots when supported by collosi and stalkers.


Nope. They don't. It's really hard to explain why; I would encourage you to try this composition before making judgments.

Between Archons stomping over them and the impossibility of getting a full seal with forcefields (assuming you picked a good place to engage) they really just don't do their job. And even if you get great forcefields, your Collossus army is still a ball (and surrounded by force fields too) so Archons rip the shit out of it. Seriously, go try it first.
Am0n3r
Profile Joined April 2010
United States254 Posts
May 12 2011 22:43 GMT
#207
this is gold/platinum experience from earlier today:
I have faced people trying to go archon/zealot+whatever else mix twice today and both times it was easily stumpable with blink stalkers... archons are easy to snipe with blinks and with low amounts they are harmless like a misswaypointed colossus in the middle of the enemy's base with a buddy observer...
Get comfortable being uncomfortable
Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
May 12 2011 22:49 GMT
#208
On May 13 2011 07:37 Lobber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2011 07:29 Resistentialism wrote:
If you see a ton of zealots with archons, what about holding off on the forcefields and making a bunch of archon hallucinations? Same idea, if slightly less staying power, but can't be stomped on by an archon.

Arcons break forcefields, gas spent on sentries would be wasted... Also hallu units get in the way of your other units if you have anything low range or melee, only useful with mass stalker/collssus or other ranged stuff.


Stuff in the way is exactly what you want if you have a colossus and he outnumbers you in zealots.
laonda
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands44 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 07:42:26
May 13 2011 07:41 GMT
#209
Kiwi was testing a similar build against White-ray a few days ago and indeed did well against most builds except fast collosi which he lost. Also yesterday White-ray had another match against an opponent doing a similar build like this one and also won with ease (attack was to slow and 2 collosie where up).

If i follow what whiteray mentioned. It all comes down to positioning. You do not want to fight this build in the open. If you see this build just block your ramp with pylons and keep the collosie in the back. If you have enough collosie it should be a win. But overall a very cool 'new' PVP strat! wooot

Learn how to play, not how to win
fuzzy_panda
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
New Zealand1681 Posts
May 13 2011 07:55 GMT
#210
I was watching Artosis's stream yesterday and he tested this build out on the korean ladder against another guy going for colossus. he mopped up with zealot/archon and said on the stream "oh wow that build actually does work!". Now with the new patch making Archons massive, no more FFs and phoenixes even wont work. this build is legit
SigmaoctanusIV
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States3313 Posts
May 13 2011 07:56 GMT
#211
I like the idea of the build against colossus on this wide open maps. I know this was stated above but it's going to get tricky if you get caught in a choke against colossus with zealots. I would love to see robo and drops thrown in. 2 zealots with an archon would be a great drop for the mid game. Cause I see no harass potential in this build. You will not be able to take a ramp against range colossus curious to see if anyone could use a little bit of Robo to harass while you expand against a 2 gate robo opening and you archon rush.
I am Godzilla You are Japan
Ghost Reportin
Profile Joined September 2010
83 Posts
May 13 2011 08:19 GMT
#212
how will ff destroy zealot archon? archons are a massive unit now which means they will walk all over forcefields. i think it probably would be viable in pvp but i think it fair better against bio heavy mm balls without any mech and roach/hydra/bl armys *i would add phoenix - they counter roaches 2 :-P)
Tibson
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany85 Posts
May 13 2011 09:07 GMT
#213
remember that you cant lift archons anymore, so phoenixes wouldnt be very effective against this... looks great, Im definitely gonna try it!
rawrjaaaaay
Profile Joined March 2011
United States426 Posts
May 13 2011 09:21 GMT
#214
I've been trying to get this to work, but it's rather hard on maps that are tightly packed, like Xel'Naga. Like said before, it's all down to positioning. Flanks with chargelots are especially good. The main problem I've been having is holding off pressure from fast Colossi builds. Any ideas?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
FlaminGinjaNinja
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom879 Posts
May 13 2011 09:43 GMT
#215
i don't know if this has been mensioned yet so im just throwing it out there. This build would be better if you warp in your HT and leave them as HT when you attack. You can feedback any sentries to minimise forcefield and then morph them into archons when their energy runs out. Also, now that archons are massive units doesnt that mean they can crush forcefields?
GinjaNinja.661 EU I'd like to thank my sh*t keyyboard for always messing up my 'Y's
Xacalite
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany533 Posts
May 13 2011 09:49 GMT
#216
After doing some testing myself and seeing artosis breaking PvP on the ladder with zealot archon I cant emphasis enough how hard this composition depends on positioning. Its like playing zerg. You neeeeeeed space. and I mean a lot of space. But then again it is now possible so attack terran out in the open but thats another matchup...
I feel fear...for the last time
laonda
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands44 Posts
May 13 2011 09:56 GMT
#217
Did someone already found some replays of kiwi doing this build (or another pro-gamer) to see a tight build order for this? I would really like to try this build my timing is still off

Learn how to play, not how to win
agahamsorr0w
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands359 Posts
May 13 2011 10:01 GMT
#218
On November 21 2010 18:33 sob3k wrote:
I hate to say it, but lolno

EDIT: ok, not lolno, its really a pretty decent composition, I just don't think it will replace collossi at high level.

even if it did rape collossi (which I doubt heavily, because I don't think you'll ever catch them), how will you deal with FF or blink stalkers?

I'll watch the replays and report back.

EDIT:

Rep 1

Your opponent carries out the worst 4gate I have ever see, only warps in one wave of reinforcements despite getting into your main, then blows all of his money and potential advantage on an expansion...wut. You then take the gold, he takes the third instead of his nat (why?), you macro up, he still has no collossi, you sweep in and rape his undefended expo (thats why you dont expand there). Your army is worth 3k more than his and he has one collossi at this point. More macro, you battle at your gold. You have a 30 food advantage and he somehow manages to blow all his FF without actually reducing his army surface. His composition is zealot collossus, he has like no stalkers....to your speedlot archon. DESPITE the terrible FF, your archons still do almost nothing to contribute to the fight. Watch the rep, they just wander around getting blocked while your speedlots kill him.

This replay does not show anything about your strat.

Rep 2

Your opponent attempts to forge FE while still laying down a core off of one gate with no cannons on the close positions of LT. You make some zealots and kill him. Game ends in like 4 minutes, no archons or collossi. Did you post the wrong rep?

Rep 3

I'm not even going to comment really, it against the same dude as rep 2, and he's awful. no range on the collossi, no stalkers, and no FF.

you're gonna need alot more than this to prove this is viable.

How on earth do you plan on beating someone who makes stalkers, they'll just kite you...


you should edit this. archons are now massive so ff isnt a problem anymore. phoenix are also not a problem. archons now pwns in pvp or pvt. zergs can neural the archons so they turn archons against them.
IzieBoy
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 10:51:10
May 13 2011 10:43 GMT
#219
wait... aren't archons massive units?

archons are quite fat lol

both archons and collosi can move through diagonal like a bishop in chess through buildings on one square

but note how archon cannot move through two squares to the right or left through one square-width if top and bottom is blocked XD, while the collosus can
Let's Do This! Leeeeeeeeeeeeeroy Jenkins!
IzieBoy
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 10:52:46
May 13 2011 10:50 GMT
#220
HT and archons do better in drops though.. you can fit 2 archons in a prism

speed-wise archons are faster too 2.81 move-speed
collosi are like immortal-speed of 2.25
of course when it comes to kiting, collosi > stalker > archon
Let's Do This! Leeeeeeeeeeeeeroy Jenkins!
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