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PvP, Collosus's Demise. New and Original Strategy. - Page 10

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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spacemonkeyy
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia477 Posts
May 11 2011 10:31 GMT
#181
I just had pretty good success with this tactic, can't find sc2replayed seems to be down atm though?
TheKRoc
Profile Joined February 2011
United States74 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 22:36:11
May 11 2011 11:15 GMT
#182
A lot of people in here misunderstand where the strength of this composition lies.

First, know that Charge is 75% of what makes this build good. You guys don't seem to understand how fucking good it is in PvP. If you haven't tried it, go and do it right now.

Here is how every fight goes vs. Colossus:

You have 4 Archons and 20 Zealots. He has 3 Colossus, 14 Zealots, and some stalkers (I think thats around even, but it doesn't really matter)

Chargelots basically always get more surface area on other Zealots straight up, (I.E. if I have 14 Chargelots and you have 14 Zealots, my Zealots will charge into a curve around yours) but to further skew the fight in your favor further you're going to have more zealots. This creates a little concave, and after a second or two Archons get to the bag guy's Zealots and rip the shit out of them (they do this anyways, but your Chargelots bundle A-moved Zealots nicely for splash). You will lose the vast majority of your Zealots here, but come away with maybe 5 or 6. Those plus three remaining Archons go up and kill the Colossus.

End of story. And forcefields don't really work, by the way.
Paekes
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany28 Posts
May 11 2011 11:28 GMT
#183
even if there are forcefileds wont the archons just stomp the ff's after the patch?
nihlon
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden5581 Posts
May 11 2011 11:29 GMT
#184
On May 11 2011 20:15 bonerificus wrote:
A lot of people in here misunderstand where the strength of this composition lies.

First, know that Charge is 75% of what makes this build good. You guys don't seem to understand how fucking good it is in PvP. If you haven't tried it, go and do it right now.

Here is how every fight goes vs. Colossus:

You have 4 Archons and 20 Zealots. He has 3 Colossus, 14 Zealots, and some stalkers (I think thats around even, but it doesn't really matter)

Chargelots basically always get more surface area on other Zealots straight up, (I.E. if I have 14 Chargelots and you have 14 Zealots, my Zealots will charge into a curve around yours) but to further skew the fight in your favor further you're going to have more zealots. This creates a little concave, and after a second or two Archons get to the bag guy's Zealots and rip the shit out of them (they do this anyways, but your Chargelots bundle A-moved Zealots nicely for splash). You will lose the vast majority of your Zealots here, but come away with maybe 5 or 6. Those plus three remaining Archons go up and kill the Zealots.

End of story. And forcefields don't really work, by the way.


How does the collosus play a part in this? I assume you mean collosi in the end there or?
Banelings are too cute to blow up
Murloc
Profile Joined May 2011
United States4 Posts
May 11 2011 11:48 GMT
#185
I am intrigued by people testing this. I hope Spek is still around to see what he has wrought!
Pwnographics
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand1097 Posts
May 11 2011 11:59 GMT
#186
On May 11 2011 20:15 bonerificus wrote:
A lot of people in here misunderstand where the strength of this composition lies.

First, know that Charge is 75% of what makes this build good. You guys don't seem to understand how fucking good it is in PvP. If you haven't tried it, go and do it right now.

Here is how every fight goes vs. Colossus:

You have 4 Archons and 20 Zealots. He has 3 Colossus, 14 Zealots, and some stalkers (I think thats around even, but it doesn't really matter)

Chargelots basically always get more surface area on other Zealots straight up, (I.E. if I have 14 Chargelots and you have 14 Zealots, my Zealots will charge into a curve around yours) but to further skew the fight in your favor further you're going to have more zealots. This creates a little concave, and after a second or two Archons get to the bag guy's Zealots and rip the shit out of them (they do this anyways, but your Chargelots bundle A-moved Zealots nicely for splash). You will lose the vast majority of your Zealots here, but come away with maybe 5 or 6. Those plus three remaining Archons go up and kill the Zealots.

End of story. And forcefields don't really work, by the way.


Yes, because when your zealots are forcefielded so they can't hit stalkers and collosi they are very effective.

Forcefields do work, and they rip apart chargelots when supported by collosi and stalkers.
Ineffability~
Profile Joined February 2011
84 Posts
May 11 2011 11:59 GMT
#187
Why don't they nerf the one imba unit to make another unit even more imba. Storm/zealot with archons after storms will rip PvT apart now

User was warned for this post
azn_dude1
Profile Joined October 2010
162 Posts
May 11 2011 12:07 GMT
#188
On May 11 2011 20:59 Pwnographics wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 20:15 bonerificus wrote:
A lot of people in here misunderstand where the strength of this composition lies.

First, know that Charge is 75% of what makes this build good. You guys don't seem to understand how fucking good it is in PvP. If you haven't tried it, go and do it right now.

Here is how every fight goes vs. Colossus:

You have 4 Archons and 20 Zealots. He has 3 Colossus, 14 Zealots, and some stalkers (I think thats around even, but it doesn't really matter)

Chargelots basically always get more surface area on other Zealots straight up, (I.E. if I have 14 Chargelots and you have 14 Zealots, my Zealots will charge into a curve around yours) but to further skew the fight in your favor further you're going to have more zealots. This creates a little concave, and after a second or two Archons get to the bag guy's Zealots and rip the shit out of them (they do this anyways, but your Chargelots bundle A-moved Zealots nicely for splash). You will lose the vast majority of your Zealots here, but come away with maybe 5 or 6. Those plus three remaining Archons go up and kill the Zealots.

End of story. And forcefields don't really work, by the way.


Yes, because when your zealots are forcefielded so they can't hit stalkers and collosi they are very effective.

Forcefields do work, and they rip apart chargelots when supported by collosi and stalkers.

Archons stomp force fields. This build has been made a lot stronger by the new patch.
Cibron
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden253 Posts
May 11 2011 12:11 GMT
#189
On May 11 2011 20:59 Ineffability~ wrote:
Why don't they nerf the one imba unit to make another unit even more imba. Storm/zealot with archons after storms will rip PvT apart now


Haha what? Dude massive archons dont affect **** in PvT. I'd worry more about 2gate pressure...
ZOMGY (¬O_o)¬ || BeastyQQ FTW!! ||
Barty
Profile Joined December 2010
France64 Posts
May 11 2011 12:13 GMT
#190
Shouldn't an archon be in the front line instead of zealots? I mean it could be used to 1) crush forcefields 2) tank colossus&stalkers fire for a while since it's so big and splash doesnt affect like 3 zealots at a time when archons are being focused. Sure they cost a lot of gas but it's your only way to spend it.
BTW it could be interesting to compare the upgrades-scaling of archons and zealots vs colos. and stalkers !
In God We Trush
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
May 11 2011 12:33 GMT
#191
On May 11 2011 21:13 Barty wrote:
Shouldn't an archon be in the front line instead of zealots? I mean it could be used to 1) crush forcefields 2) tank colossus&stalkers fire for a while since it's so big and splash doesnt affect like 3 zealots at a time when archons are being focused. Sure they cost a lot of gas but it's your only way to spend it.
BTW it could be interesting to compare the upgrades-scaling of archons and zealots vs colos. and stalkers !


In this build (chargelot/archon), a good idea is to keep only 1-2 archons in front to break forcefields and the rest in the back. This is because having too many archons in the front would prevent your zealots from attack, and also remember that archons now have 3 range, which helps them hit behind the zealots.

Zealot Scale > Stalker Scale

Stalkers only get like +1
Zealots get +2
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
May 11 2011 14:58 GMT
#192
Zealot archon vs zealot colossus, colossus fucking rape.

User was warned for this post
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
Argus92
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands93 Posts
May 11 2011 15:16 GMT
#193
Interesting build, you need to have good position though, zealots shouldnt be clumped up, like on a small ramp, you have Melee units with this build. Also, if they take out the Archon first, they can force field you all they want, which against Zealots, is quite pwn.

Funny how at the start I didn't get the 1 Archon only, but of course it's Massive now, didn't realize it before. haha
Sakarabu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom132 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-11 15:42:54
May 11 2011 15:41 GMT
#194
On May 12 2011 00:16 Argus92 wrote:
Interesting build, you need to have good position though, zealots shouldnt be clumped up, like on a small ramp, you have Melee units with this build. Also, if they take out the Archon first, they can force field you all they want, which against Zealots, is quite pwn.

Funny how at the start I didn't get the 1 Archon only, but of course it's Massive now, didn't realize it before. haha


You are underestimating the power of the archon and how many hits it can take. At the timing this attack hits your opponent is either expanding or teching to collosi, he won't HAVE collosi yet. He will have afew gateway units at most.

Saw kiwikaki doing this vs whitera yesterday on his stream, It did stomp whitera however I will add that it was Whiteras first game ever on the new patch so i'm not gonna say it's OMFGAMAZING.

However it did seem very strong, definitely crushes a blink stalker build (stalkers just don't have the dps to kill mass speedlots effectively without forcefields), crushes a 4 gate (you need to get afew fast sentries though) and also crushes a fast tech to collosi and those are the majority of popular strats used.

All in all, we'll have to wait and see the true potential of this as people learn how to counter it etc but it's a fun build nonetheless.
chikhan
Profile Joined May 2011
Malaysia35 Posts
May 12 2011 19:49 GMT
#195
This build is totally made for patch 1.3.3! Archons as massive units totally ROLFSTOMP FF's and early Collo's
SC2 ain't SimCity2!
Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
May 12 2011 19:52 GMT
#196
Might want to add this to the OP but phoenixes cannot lift archons, i.e massive unit. However i really do think that zealot archon could be fairly good on some maps (like tyler was talking about on sotg).
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
I)etox
Profile Joined April 2011
1240 Posts
May 12 2011 20:11 GMT
#197
On May 11 2011 23:58 Lobber wrote:
Zealot archon vs zealot colossus, colossus fucking rape.


Actually, since archons cost the same minerals as a zealot does (100) while collosus cost 3x that amount (300), zealot/archon will have more zealots than zealot/collosus. Add to the fact that zealot/archon will have chargelots so they can get a better surround/not be kited by collosus and that archons do bonus damage vs. zealots, zealot/archons is looking to be a very viable build vs. zealot/collosus right now.
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
May 12 2011 21:39 GMT
#198
On May 13 2011 05:11 I)etox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 23:58 Lobber wrote:
Zealot archon vs zealot colossus, colossus fucking rape.


Actually, since archons cost the same minerals as a zealot does (100) while collosus cost 3x that amount (300), zealot/archon will have more zealots than zealot/collosus. Add to the fact that zealot/archon will have chargelots so they can get a better surround/not be kited by collosus and that archons do bonus damage vs. zealots, zealot/archons is looking to be a very viable build vs. zealot/collosus right now.



I was doing some theorycrafting in my head and I'm thinking that stalker(with blink) collosus would win this battle if microed correctly. The collosus stay near a cliff and then you blink away with stalkers after shooting a round essentially kiting the zealot/archon ball. Engaging in an open area would be like automatic win for the zealot archon ball.

I think this build makes pvp have an interesting dynamic in the mid game. and We could actually see long drawn out pvp games. This could also cause pvp to always start off with a gas steal. Looking forward to the future of pvp
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
May 12 2011 22:06 GMT
#199
On May 11 2011 23:58 Lobber wrote:
Zealot archon vs zealot colossus, colossus fucking rape.

User was warned for this post

As per request by the mod pm and warning here's a recent replay where I ended up with gateway colossus vs gateway archon and traded ridiculously well. Granted the game was not great for me and I did lose overall, he was a gm, much higher than me, I almost managed to take it despite being so far behind due to the near hard-counter of colossus vs archon.

Also granted it's not pure zealot archon vs zealot colossus but stalker zealot for both...

replay
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
r3tsa
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland94 Posts
May 12 2011 22:19 GMT
#200
Dunno guys if u realize that, but Void Rays are the only unit now with bonus dmg vs archons.
No pain, no gain.
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