EPTi posted this type of strat 4 months ago. Nothing really has changed, and it wasn't anything worthy back then. Blink stalkers own this strategy pretty hard core.
PvP, Collosus's Demise. New and Original Strategy. - Page 8
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hellsan631
United States695 Posts
i posted this type of strat 4 months ago. Nothing really has changed, and it wasn't anything worthy back then. Blink stalkers own this strategy pretty hard core. | ||
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Informat
Canada45 Posts
I agree force field would demolish this composition on any map regardless of how much open space. Personally i'd rather invest in blink stalkers and attack before the toss achieves the 4 colossi count. Archons are strong against bionic units and the only bionic unit for protoss is the zealot. Also, colossi would kill faster than archons any day with splash. Not to mention the colossi could always climb cliffs and roast archons without FF. It's even easier for the toss player to switch back to a tier 1 Stalker/Sentry composition instead of continuing to produce colossi. Blink stalkers can abuse the short range even more so than colossi. Imagine trying to catch up to a party of blink stalkers in your mineral line with only melee units. This strategy is flawed, too many holes where the other player can abuse. I don't mean any offense but i can only see this successful against low divisions where players make plenty of macro/micro mistakes. | ||
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Daedalus81
17 Posts
The second one I faced 5 or 6 colossi late game with a lot of FFs. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-168840.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-168841.jpg) | ||
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Daedalus81
17 Posts
On November 26 2010 11:10 Informat wrote: Personally i'd rather invest in blink stalkers and attack before the toss achieves the 4 colossi count. Archons are strong against bionic units and the only bionic unit for protoss is the zealot. Also, colossi would kill faster than archons any day with splash. Not to mention the colossi could always climb cliffs and roast archons without FF. The Colossi splash relies on unit size. The Archon bucks that quite a bit. | ||
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Informat
Canada45 Posts
On November 26 2010 11:47 Daedalus81 wrote: The Colossi splash relies on unit size. The Archon bucks that quite a bit. I understand that archons do tend to take up a lot of room, but because of it's heavy gas cost; you'll practically have 6 zealots per archon. If there's no zealots, then what's a couple of archons going to do? It's pretty much certain you'll be hitting atleast 5 zealots every attack along with an archon or two. Zealots are the core of the army, archons are just support. | ||
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bjornkavist
Canada1235 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
this build should incorporate a hallucination scout | ||
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OmniscientSC2
United States713 Posts
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Arch00
United States233 Posts
On November 26 2010 06:18 BBC.807 wrote: I encountered the SpeedZealArchon build in a PVP game (these TL.net threads tend to have that kind of impact on b.net). Here is the replay that i saved, we're both diamond 1800 players: 1v1 - Protoss SpeedZealArchon Normally i do a 3gate build, but iv'e been so bored with PVP lately (even tried carriers for a brief period), so i decided i would go with a 2-gate to mix it up - now i prefer the 3-gate option even more. As stated a couple of times: - Effective use of FF and Colossi is the key. - Proper use of observer enabled me to pick the spot of the battle. This was the first time i encountered it, i would probably be able to respond even better now having faced it already. What your opponent did was much more a speedlot rush and not really the Archon build mentioned in this thread. He was supply capped at 50 for almost 3-4 minutes straight and almost always had full energy on his nexus. He could have executed things much more crisply but didn't for some reason. He was also floating 700 minerals and not chronoing his gateways to pump out his zealot count D; and to make things worse he expanded much earlier but his probe count was barely half yours.. this guy is 1800 haha? Yay bonus pts! | ||
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Daedalus81
17 Posts
On November 26 2010 12:14 bjornkavist wrote: I have not watched the replays yet, and I'm sure you put a lot of effort into this but I'm afraid it can't work too consistently. like you mentioned Dts (my fave unit in PvP) can easily counter it if they dont see it coming. And I have tried an Archon Zealot build in a tournament once where I was absolutely demolished in PvP, in your defense though I did not refine this build much. But the best way for this build to work is for them to rely on not microing their collosi which in my opinion is not a recipe for a good build. First replay my opponent got late DTs. I can get an earlier forge for upgrades and one cannon. For the 1 in 20 games I face DTs its a non-issue. | ||
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Niji87
United States112 Posts
I think your biggest worries will come from Stalkers and Air units, though. I can't see Archon/Zealot beating up Stalkers very easily. I think getting Storm early while expanding is your best bet for moving into a safer late-midgame and lategame. EDIT: Actually, considering the cost of the HT being only 50 more gas than a Sentry and their ability to instantly nuke a Sentry with Feedback and then merge into an Archon, I'd say HT vs Sentry is very much in the favor of the HT. | ||
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kaisr
Canada715 Posts
On November 26 2010 11:45 Daedalus81 wrote: Here are a couple more from me... The second one I faced 5 or 6 colossi late game with a lot of FFs. ugh was watching second replay and stopped when both of you got forges and cannoned your mains... | ||
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30to1
105 Posts
On November 26 2010 06:18 BBC.807 wrote: I encountered the SpeedZealArchon build in a PVP game (these TL.net threads tend to have that kind of impact on b.net). Here is the replay that i saved, we're both diamond 1800 players: 1v1 - Protoss SpeedZealArchon Normally i do a 3gate build, but iv'e been so bored with PVP lately (even tried carriers for a brief period), so i decided i would go with a 2-gate to mix it up - now i prefer the 3-gate option even more. As stated a couple of times: - Effective use of FF and Colossi is the key. - Proper use of observer enabled me to pick the spot of the battle. This was the first time i encountered it, i would probably be able to respond even better now having faced it already. I didn't watch the whole thing. Personally I think he would have rolled you if he had built a forward pylon to reinforce at 8 minutes. Honestly, I didn't really like his style - he has a force that dominates you but he didn't contain you to base, the push was fine - but again - he had around 8 zealots sitting in his base when you finally repelled his push --- those 8 zeals should have been in your base. Maybe colossi are the key - but frankly - playing that build more correctly, he should have killed you at around 9 minutes. Not putting up a forward pylon for reinforcement or taking advantage of his early map control was really wasteful. | ||
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30to1
105 Posts
On November 26 2010 12:42 Daedalus81 wrote: First replay my opponent got late DTs. I can get an earlier forge for upgrades and one cannon. For the 1 in 20 games I face DTs its a non-issue. BTW - I've watched a variety of your replays and like your style. That said, I think that there are some improvements you can make in this matchup. 1 - you have full map control. take advantage of that, and keep him feeling under pressure. 2 - deny him any expansion what so ever - set patrol points with probes for ninja expansions. 3 - never move out without forward pylons or a warp prism. its just dumb to neglect the advantage warp gates give you. people keep claiming the best answer to this build is stalker/sentry -- they're wrong. they're just so dependent on using the same build over and over that they can't really think out of the box. "if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail" right? so - if all you know is stalker / sentry / colossus then FF + colossus is your answer to everything. My prediction is that zealots will become the core unit in pvp matchups over the next few months - same as marine / tank has regained the core spot in terran play. And I think the fertile ground for toss strategy revolves around its neglected air. Phoenix are amazing units - they just cause you to slip on macro if you have low apm. but they're incredible units. Void ray also is really neglected aside from use as a shitty banshee proxy for cheese play - the void ray is not a cheese unit - its powerful air support - and is really great if used that way. | ||
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numpkin
39 Posts
DTs allows you to apply early pressure and force a fast robo play, so you are much safer from a 4 gate rush, plus DTs cost less gas than HTs, so when your opponent do get sufficient detection, your archon army should be bigger than you would have if you went HTs. | ||
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Artisian
United States115 Posts
On November 26 2010 16:05 numpkin wrote: Why get templar archive? why not a dark shrine instead? DTs allows you to apply early pressure and force a fast robo play, so you are much safer from a 4 gate rush, plus DTs cost less gas than HTs, so when your opponent do get sufficient detection, your archon army should be bigger than you would have if you went HTs. The biggest downside to going DT's over HT's is the build time and gas of their tech. The shrine costs more, and takes longer, effectively delaying the archons for a good minute or more. While they are better immediately after the tech is finished, if the goal is an archon you are much better off going the ht route. Also of interest, Gas is usually what you have laying around after the archives finish, and that's practically all you need for HT's, while the dt shrine cuts back on your zealot production ever so slightly, and less of your actual dps unit is never really a good thing. | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On November 26 2010 11:47 Daedalus81 wrote: The Colossi splash relies on unit size. The Archon bucks that quite a bit. ....Unless you are a good protoss and micro your colossi. On November 26 2010 15:27 30to1 wrote: BTW - I've watched a variety of your replays and like your style. That said, I think that there are some improvements you can make in this matchup. 1 - you have full map control. take advantage of that, and keep him feeling under pressure. 2 - deny him any expansion what so ever - set patrol points with probes for ninja expansions. 3 - never move out without forward pylons or a warp prism. its just dumb to neglect the advantage warp gates give you. people keep claiming the best answer to this build is stalker/sentry -- they're wrong. they're just so dependent on using the same build over and over that they can't really think out of the box. "if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail" right? so - if all you know is stalker / sentry / colossus then FF + colossus is your answer to everything. My prediction is that zealots will become the core unit in pvp matchups over the next few months - same as marine / tank has regained the core spot in terran play. And I think the fertile ground for toss strategy revolves around its neglected air. Phoenix are amazing units - they just cause you to slip on macro if you have low apm. but they're incredible units. Void ray also is really neglected aside from use as a shitty banshee proxy for cheese play - the void ray is not a cheese unit - its powerful air support - and is really great if used that way. Zealots are already a core unit in PvP matchups. As for hammers and nails. People's logic is not flawed. Colossus/sentry/zealot is a great tool to use against and army THAT HAS NO RANGED CAPABILITIES. When all I see are nails, I can't help but use my hammer. | ||
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Daedalus81
17 Posts
ugh was watching second replay and stopped when both of you got forges and cannoned your mains... Wow. I got 2 cannons and he got 1. Cannons do quite well for cost and they had n real bearing on the overall strategy of the game. Maybe you should have a bit more of an open mind? | ||
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Daedalus81
17 Posts
BTW - I've watched a variety of your replays and like your style. That said, I think that there are some improvements you can make in this matchup. 1 - you have full map control. take advantage of that, and keep him feeling under pressure. 2 - deny him any expansion what so ever - set patrol points with probes for ninja expansions. 3 - never move out without forward pylons or a warp prism. its just dumb to neglect the advantage warp gates give you. Thanks - I appreciate the feedback. I'm still trying to improve my play so it helps a lot to hear those things.  | ||
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