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PvP, Collosus's Demise. New and Original Strategy.

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 20:24:24
November 21 2010 09:28 GMT
#1
Long time Lurker here, ready to make my mark.

Now before we get into this, I just spent an hour writing a very long and detail orientated post about this strategy. It had a rough build order, counters to the strategy, theorcrafting, the whole shibang. It was grand. I put quite a lot of effort into it, then I pressed the post preview button, and it said some crap about not being logged in. So I lost it all. Therefore, I apologize if this post is not very detailed, but I just have to share this strategy with the community, and I'm not willing to do another huge write up at this moment.


The Basic Strategy

Two units. Zealot. Archon. Now I'm sure many of you right now are thinking, "lol newb gtfo archons suk dawg". Wrong. I did unit tests. Lots of unit tests. When comparing an equal resources army, zealot/archon beats any collosus build.. easily.

The Spek Build, or just zealot/archon

Just do your normal 12 or 13 gate opening, with gas and a cyber core. But this time, get only two stalkers, then the rest are zealots. Get a twlight council when resources pemit, and chrono boost charge. By now you should have 3 or 4 warpgates. Get a templar archives after that. When your first archon pops, attack the enemy protoss with your 1 archon, 2 stalkers, and many zealots.

I apologize for the lack of a real build order. I have not hammered out the exact timings of a build order yet, and I usually just wing it. This is unimportant though, because this strategy is all about the unit composition, combined with pressure and getting an economic advantage.

This strategy is excellent for pressure and aggressiveness. Robo units take forever to build. Warpgate units do not. Therefore you will overwhelm him. Also, it's very easy to expand using this strategy.


For those of you who want to know. I am a diamond player. 2000 points and rising. Spekkio.416 on NA. I used to play protoss, but about 3 weeks ago I started playing random, and I love it. I'm also top 200 2v2 random in the world (which in my opinion doesn't mean much though, because all the good players don't even 2v2)


Counters

The only time collosi work against the zealot/archon strategy is if you have LOTS of them. Like late-game lots. 6+. When you have around 6 collosi, they really start mopping up the zealots. But even so, it's still not a hard counter. It just equals up the encounter. And also, read the about paragraph. With warpgates you can just keep making armies. Eventually those collosi will get taken down, and then they're VERY hard to replenish. But of course using the Spek Build, it's very hard for your enemy to get that many collosi because of the early and constant pressure. I've tested this.

DT's are sort of a counter. I once lost to them because my friend who was testing with me knew exactly my strategy. DT's can be stopped by getting a forge before you move out.

Stargate builds! In my opinion, this is the largest threat. Any void ray build would probably give zealot/archon a run for it's money. Phoenix's would probably work too, by lifting the archons. This is all theory crafting, I have not yet tested stargate builds against the Spek build.

But the lovely thing about the zealot/archon strategy is that you can easily adapt into a high templar and normal gateway army, or even just pure blink stalkers.

Replays

http://www.mediafire.com/?mxlhe2iyl48mjpo
http://www.mediafire.com/?z6u0tf3yx5f68td (updated, I had the wrong rep)
http://www.mediafire.com/?romdri5vk67xj9x


Note my enthusiasm in these replays. I really think this strategy will change PvP forever.

Conclusion

Finally, a way to get rid of the dreaded collosus in PvP. Enjoy. Please remember to actually test this strategy, or at least watch the replays, before calling me an idiot.

If this strategy has a positive response, I'll take the time to make a nice long quality post, with strategy, goals, counter builds, and criticism. But in the mean time, I'll just try and answer questions as they come.

EDIT

I've been getting a lot of criticism. Mostly in the form of theorycrafting... Therefore I just hammered out three more ladder games. That makes a total of 6 games now. All won using this strat. In a row. My words can only say so much, so I guess I'll just SHOW you how well this strategy works.

http://www.mediafire.com/?dxa7pkf4i8h76t6
http://www.mediafire.com/?5vbqnq0x9e2x0y8
http://www.mediafire.com/?9wyeitud36yep11

BTW, these three reps are probably a lot better than the first three.

When you watch the replays you'll notice a lack of collosi. That's because for some reason, all the games I'm playing now, people don't want to make them for me to conquer them. So you guys will have to make due with these reps. I have a theory though. Because of the aggressive nature of this build, people can't even make collosi, because they're being so pressured!

Edit 2

I'm starting to get some great feedback. It seems like whoever actually has gone out and tried this strategy, is happy with the results. I'm also getting some good criticism to make the build better, or different. This includes DT's, expansion timings, etc. Because of this feedback, I plan on re-writing my original post soon. I'll try cover every question anyone could have. Before I do this, I'd like some more replays. Rather than getting all the replays myself, it would be nice if people PM me their own replays. In the mean time, I'll try to get to a late game using the Spek Build, but I can't make any promises haha, everyone just dies too early.
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 12:06:32
November 21 2010 09:33 GMT
#2
I hate to say it, but lolno

EDIT: ok, not lolno, its really a pretty decent composition, I just don't think it will replace collossi at high level.

even if it did rape collossi (which I doubt heavily, because I don't think you'll ever catch them), how will you deal with FF or blink stalkers?

I'll watch the replays and report back.

EDIT:

Rep 1

Your opponent carries out the worst 4gate I have ever see, only warps in one wave of reinforcements despite getting into your main, then blows all of his money and potential advantage on an expansion...wut. You then take the gold, he takes the third instead of his nat (why?), you macro up, he still has no collossi, you sweep in and rape his undefended expo (thats why you dont expand there). Your army is worth 3k more than his and he has one collossi at this point. More macro, you battle at your gold. You have a 30 food advantage and he somehow manages to blow all his FF without actually reducing his army surface. His composition is zealot collossus, he has like no stalkers....to your speedlot archon. DESPITE the terrible FF, your archons still do almost nothing to contribute to the fight. Watch the rep, they just wander around getting blocked while your speedlots kill him.

This replay does not show anything about your strat.

Rep 2

Your opponent attempts to forge FE while still laying down a core off of one gate with no cannons on the close positions of LT. You make some zealots and kill him. Game ends in like 4 minutes, no archons or collossi. Did you post the wrong rep?

Rep 3

I'm not even going to comment really, it against the same dude as rep 2, and he's awful. no range on the collossi, no stalkers, and no FF.

you're gonna need alot more than this to prove this is viable.

How on earth do you plan on beating someone who makes stalkers, they'll just kite you...
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 09:45:59
November 21 2010 09:44 GMT
#3
On November 21 2010 18:33 sob3k wrote:
I hate to say it, but lolno

even if it did rape collossi (which I doubt heavily, because I don't think you'll ever catch them), how will you deal with FF or blink stalkers?

I'll watch the replays and report back.



I'll have to apologize, but my post that I worked on earlier got deleted. It covered these two counters.

A good counter is force field. But if you watch the replays, it still isn't a perfect counter. Force field works great on ramps and such, but it's still very hard to use it as a proper counter. And it also uses a lot of micro. My response to force field would be to just expand, and refuse to fight the enemy around ramps as much as possible. By getting an economic advantage, and fighting in the open, force field is rendered ineffective.

As for the stalkers, yes my friend and I theory crafted that as well. We have not tested it, it's up for discussion. I did test blink stalkers on the Unit_test_map though. It requires perfect micro to counter the zealot/archon. And even then, it's still not a hard counter.
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
Darksoldierr
Profile Joined May 2010
Hungary2012 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 09:48:37
November 21 2010 09:47 GMT
#4
Force fields tear appart this strat i would say
What do humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.
Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
November 21 2010 09:49 GMT
#5
On November 21 2010 18:47 Darksoldierr wrote:
Force fields tear appart this strat i would say


You didn't watch the replays.
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 09:50:27
November 21 2010 09:49 GMT
#6
I thought that Colossi range + high ground positioning and half decent Forcefields could negate this strategy easily, and I still think that after watching the replays. Both of your opponents had horrible forcefields.

I wouldn't say this is anywhere near solid, sorry. The Colossus armies might die if they charge head-on, but with even a half decent positioning and control beating this shouldn't be a problem.

DreamSailor
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada433 Posts
November 21 2010 09:51 GMT
#7
Archons are good, but teching to them in Protoss vs. Protoss only seems a bit meh.

They do tank a lot of damage, and take no bonus damage but their big strength (Biological, and Splash) is pretty negated, the splash is actually pretty pitiful (Only really good against stacked mutalisks) and the damage is kind of lack luster, likewise Storm is fairly lack luster against Protoss due to high unit health.

I think if you swapped the Templar Archives for a Darkshrine this build would be better. It would be quite similiar to a DT rush but you could back off and turn your DT's into Archons once they have detection...

You know, its probably actually better to use DT's to flank and snipe the Colossus... as they deal more damage then Archons deal.
Where ever you go, there you are.
Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
November 21 2010 09:51 GMT
#8
On November 21 2010 18:49 Talin wrote:
I thought that Colossi range + high ground positioning and half decent Forcefields could negate this strategy easily, and I still think that after watching the replays. Both of your opponents had horrible forcefields.

I wouldn't say this is anywhere near solid, sorry. The Colossus armies might die if they charge head-on, but with even a half decent positioning and control beating this shouldn't be a problem.




Okay, this strategy requires more testing then. I'll keep using it in ladder.
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
hoovehand
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 10:00:27
November 21 2010 09:53 GMT
#9
i grant your wish sir.

the strategy in the second replay (http://www.mediafire.com/?mbn9ed5rdbhbv32) will henchforce be known as the 'Spek' (failed cannon rush)


edit: i can't see it working tbh... archon are basically a short-range weaker version of the colossus that can shoot air. if you had colossus you would have won easier in every game.

pro of archon:

- more minerals for more zealots
- fast twilight council for zealot legs
- can hit air

cons of archon:

- pathetic range
- lower damage
- owned by forcefield
- can't cliff walk
happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
November 21 2010 09:55 GMT
#10
On November 21 2010 18:28 Spek wrote:
I did unit tests. Lots of unit tests.


Stopped reading there

User was temp banned for this post.
Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
November 21 2010 09:55 GMT
#11
On November 21 2010 18:53 hoovehand wrote:
i grant your wish sir.

the strategy in the second replay (http://www.mediafire.com/?mbn9ed5rdbhbv32) will henchforce be known as the 'Spek' (failed cannon rush)


My apologies again. I am very tired (awake for 27 hours), and I posted the wrong replay. I will edit my original post, with the proper replay. Sorry.
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
turbopasca1
Profile Joined April 2010
Moldova41 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 09:57:39
November 21 2010 09:56 GMT
#12
just watched those replays , and your opponets were all bad , u could have killed them with whatever strategy u wanted.

1st game is a fail 4gate by your opponent , after that he let u make a gold expansion and because of that u have like 2x of his army in the last fight.
2nd game - i have no idea why u uploaded it , some non-sense forge expand , which never works in PvP?
3rd game the guy went pure zealot colosie army which is wtf? just add more stalkers and sentrys to block those archons instead of 2nd robo.

just an advice for you future archon games - making them from DTS cost LESS.
Aletheia27
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States267 Posts
November 21 2010 09:58 GMT
#13
I've been trying this strategy for a couple weeks now. My idea however didn't stem from countering colossus but rather securing a safe expansion against a 4 gate. The trick being that zealots are cheaper and are more efficient than stalkers once charge kicks in to negate kiting. Although in my version you don't try to pressure constantly but rather on OPEN maps use chargelots as a cheap contain for you to get ahead in econ.

Now what I've found is that you NEED to transition to colossus. I worked with archons under the idea that they were easier to replenish and have splash letting your own zeals get to your opponent. However this doesn't work, if your opponent plays passive and makes a fair number of sentries while techin to colossus.

You need to transition to colossus to match his and break the forcefields in the end. No way around it. But chareglots are a good opening to get an expansion so far as I've found. That econ can get you ahead. I don't think though that this directly solves the colossus problem as they're still necessary late game. I've tried double stargate transitions for voids but to no avail. Forcefields and a quasi-slowpush is enough to prevent and mop up your gateway units.

On the flip side, opening with chargelots and mostly zeals is quite effective! The faster expansion timing and the ability to maintain map control for the mostpart can shut down robo builds. And the efficiency of zeals against other gateway units with charge lets you out produce them.

I haven't found a "hard" counter to this yet, but I would say that the popular 3 gate blink timing push can give you a good run for your money. And the standard 4 gate is still a close call depending on the time for charge to finish when they get toward your base.

But these are just my findings of a similar build. Take them as you will
I am that I am
BrotherBax
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom89 Posts
November 21 2010 10:01 GMT
#14
I don't want to sound too negative, because I hate war of the worlds PvP apparently as much as you do. However, those replays weren't great and I'll have to also say what others have said in the thread, correct forcefield usage will pretty much kill you. In the same way you would vs a good number of speedlings, you want to reduce the surface area of your ball of death and you want your army positioned so your zealots are on the outside/front with everything else tucked behind.

Oddly enough did you know that a small group of speedlots with +2 weapons rip through probe lines (assuming 0 armour upgrades from them)
hoovehand
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 10:03:33
November 21 2010 10:03 GMT
#15
in the third game your opponent had like 1200 minerals while his colossus were being overwhelmed by your zealots... with 4 idle warpgates... and he sucked at cliff walking.

if that guy is 2000 diamond then he really puts a dent in the '2000 diamond is uber players only' argument.
Akuemon
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada151 Posts
November 21 2010 10:05 GMT
#16
Watched the replays. Would you mind putting them on sc2rep.com or something and not public general file sharing website? thx.

Holy god. This worked out so well.

Replay 1: Okay so you stopped a 4 gate. cool. You were pretty even with the other guy after though. Both expand at almost the same time, but you took the gold which pulled you ahead. BUT at the big battle, holy crap i didnt think you would win so convincing. E z clean up after his army died and you had most of yours. I realised its near impossible to get a full forcefield surround down when charge is so fast.

Replay 2: you should really take this one out of the OP, it just shows that 2gate>whatever the fck he was doing.

Replay 3: a more normal game. wow you really cant attack up a ramp with this build, but its okay because it gives you map control. You were obviously better than this guy, but it shows how zealots archon KILLS collosi builds. Even if the other guy was better than you and had 1 more collosi and a couple more gateway units you would have wrecked him.

All in all, I think this is actually a counter to the collosi PvP madness. though, Any stargate build would win against this tbh. :p archons cant hit a 7 range voidray. though you could scout it and go blink stalker instead.

Great job on this though.
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 10:11:32
November 21 2010 10:07 GMT
#17
A: Not a new strat
B: You can't defend until you get archons against any useful push so you're basically just going zealot for the first... Way to long...
C: Seems like the opponent could just FE you since you have no stalkers and can't commit to any useful attacks early-mid game, FF natural choke, attack with stalkers... Maybe on xel'naga where there is no natural choke?
D: What? Near, pure zealot? 2 cannons+ff = immune to any attack could fucking ms rush if he wanted.
E: "DT's can be stopped by getting a forge before you move out." Wait wait wait wait a minute... CANNONS DON'T MOVE what happens if he just... attacks your army with the dts?
F: FF= free win for enemy
G: Rather than spending 300 minerals and 300 gas on tech structures then 100 minerals 300 gas on 1 archon, then moving out you could move out with the same army except 6 sentries and a couple extra zealots, FF him in and keep stalkers from kiting also you can then GS to reduce stalker dmg 20%...
H: Zealots are really slow, they can just kite you with stalkers/colossus forever, if you get charge to help that it's another 200minerals and 200 gas spent on tech making your army way to small to be useful...
Honestly I don't understand why the archon really helps... It's a worse meatshield than 2 zealots, doesn't have enough range to be really useful, the only thing it really has is that it could kill the opponents zealots faster. Seems the only way this works if it the opponent completely ignores scouting and doesn't add sentries to his standard build...

2100 protoss and I'd way rather just do zealot sentry than zealot archon... seems much better vs any composition until colossus out... Allows for early expand because you can start of mass sentry to save minerals for nexus/extra gates, much faster/less vulnerable to any early aggression.
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
413X
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden203 Posts
November 21 2010 10:08 GMT
#18
What I like playing with it in my mind is the feedback on HTs.. If you do a push, go to his choke, bring up a zealot, feedback his sentry if you can reach, back away and transform him, then go up. Could this work? what do you guys think?
The pro noob
Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
November 21 2010 10:09 GMT
#19
One thing I missed was the dark templar opening, then transitioning into archons that way. On one hand, you can get the templar archives, which lets you quickly switch to blink or storm. Also, doesn't it pop faster than the dark obelisk? On the other side, dark obelisk, you get the cheese of DTS.
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
November 21 2010 10:13 GMT
#20
Yeah, I tested this composition too, its real solid...right up until FF is used properly, then you're completely done. Even in an open field FF will destroy zealot/archon, and good fucking luck getting up a ramp or into a choke.
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
November 21 2010 10:14 GMT
#21
On November 21 2010 19:08 413X wrote:
What I like playing with it in my mind is the feedback on HTs.. If you do a push, go to his choke, bring up a zealot, feedback his sentry if you can reach, back away and transform him, then go up. Could this work? what do you guys think?


It might work, but I doubt it because first you would need vision up his ramp. I think it would work if you sent a zealot, made if do one FF, then used your high temps to FB the rest of his sentries, the rushed in with zealots after the first FF is gone. But he could always just warp in more sentries.
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
MayorITC
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Korea (South)798 Posts
November 21 2010 10:14 GMT
#22
Post up the unit test results please.


Like actual armies on both sides, resources used and the end result.
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
November 21 2010 10:21 GMT
#23
On November 21 2010 19:14 MayorITC wrote:
Post up the unit test results please.


Like actual armies on both sides, resources used and the end result.


Its not possible, It all depends of FF usage and collossus control, you'll roll them if they do neither, you'll get reamed if they do. Its also important to target the zealots with the collossi.
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
aeoliant
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada361 Posts
November 21 2010 10:31 GMT
#24
i like archons PvP but usually after my failed dt cheese haha. forcefield is the bane of your existence and your lack of stalkers makes it hard to do any real damage to the protoss until your doom push. but if you get a nice flank its hard to ff chargelots because you gotta throw down preemptive ffs they're so damn fast
hoovehand
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 10:40:02
November 21 2010 10:36 GMT
#25
wouldn't this strategy be a lot better with voidray instead of archon?

or mix a few phoenix in so you can lift the sentry to prevent forcefield.
MayorITC
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Korea (South)798 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 10:40:28
November 21 2010 10:38 GMT
#26
On November 21 2010 19:21 sob3k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2010 19:14 MayorITC wrote:
Post up the unit test results please.


Like actual armies on both sides, resources used and the end result.


Its not possible,


How is it not possible? He already ran some tests so I would like to see the data he got for his experiment.

It all depends of FF usage and collossus control, you'll roll them if they do neither, you'll get reamed if they do.


So I'm guessing you ran some tests as well to make this conclusion? If so, please present your numbers.

I don't care about the varying circumstances that can lead to different outcomes. I just want some numerical results instead of people constantly speculating and pulling random shit out of their ass. If there's other variables such as positioning, forcefield placements, etc., then additional tests can be conducted. But for now, I would like to see the OP's numbers.
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
November 21 2010 11:10 GMT
#27
On November 21 2010 19:38 MayorITC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2010 19:21 sob3k wrote:
On November 21 2010 19:14 MayorITC wrote:
Post up the unit test results please.


Like actual armies on both sides, resources used and the end result.


Its not possible,


How is it not possible? He already ran some tests so I would like to see the data he got for his experiment.

Show nested quote +
It all depends of FF usage and collossus control, you'll roll them if they do neither, you'll get reamed if they do.


So I'm guessing you ran some tests as well to make this conclusion? If so, please present your numbers.

I don't care about the varying circumstances that can lead to different outcomes. I just want some numerical results instead of people constantly speculating and pulling random shit out of their ass. If there's other variables such as positioning, forcefield placements, etc., then additional tests can be conducted. But for now, I would like to see the OP's numbers.


Wow it's a real-time strategy game it's not turn-based, this is why the game isn't won by super computers hooked up to each other testing every possible build...

Just go test the numbers yourself there are dozens of unit testers just go do it...
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
GoldenH
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1115 Posts
November 21 2010 11:12 GMT
#28
I think even in Colossus vs Colossus, zealots are what really wins, not the colossus, so I like any build that focuses on getting lots of zealots....

My main concern is how early this build lets you expand. 1 gate FE isn't viable against Protoss... I've found I need 3.5 gates to be safe while expanding, and 3gate + fast tech to HT doesn't allow for nexus or probe production.

I think it's an interesting idea for after I get my first 4 colossus out tho, I could just stay on 2 robos and get a bunch of gateways + archons... will have to give it a shot. I've been looking for something better than stalkers against VRs anyway.

I tried attacking a colossus ball with 20 HT + zealot/immortal the other day, despite covering the screen in psi storm it didn't go the way I hoped. Maybe if that had been 9 archons + 2 HT things would have went different.
"(Dudes are) not going to say "Buy this game — I cried at the end". (...) I suppose the secret is to find a game that makes you shoot eight million fuckin' dudes and then cry about how awesome it is to shoot eight million fuckin' dudes." - Tim Rogers
Kyuki
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1867 Posts
November 21 2010 11:18 GMT
#29
I've been messing with charge and expansions alot in PvP. I almost never get 4 gates off one base tbh, I just hate playing games like that..

But archons.. I have not thought about it too much, but it's quite interesting, I think the replays are somewhat lackluster - if you update the OP with better replays that'd be awesome. I'll give it some thought to implement Archons though, it is interesting

Cheers!
Mada Mada Dane
lim1017
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1278 Posts
November 21 2010 11:28 GMT
#30
i dont know about going pure zealot arcon.. but late game PvP i usually try to mix in a few arcons so my meat shields rip through their meat shields alot faster..
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
November 21 2010 11:30 GMT
#31
you can micro colossi all day vs zealot archon
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
November 21 2010 11:31 GMT
#32
On November 21 2010 20:30 Arcanefrost wrote:
you can micro colossi all day vs zealot archon


you can make posts all day which dont contribute to the conversation
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
Kurayuki
Profile Joined October 2010
Korea (South)36 Posts
November 21 2010 11:33 GMT
#33
Bleh archon build crumbles against collosus build. Once again FF is critical. only time this build is viable is in the early stage where one initial collosus comes out with no range upgrade. However, ramp block simply turns your army away and your army takes pretty bad casualty. As collosi number increase, archons prove themselves to be simply waste of investment.

More viable strategy against robo build is phoenix build. Phoenixes are awesome units if you can get past the heavy need of micro and how fragile they are. Key is in getting their numbers up by not losing them. Once the number gets high, they just prove how useful they really are, especially since robo build won't allow for number of stalkers your opponent would want due to gas shortage if they go collosus.
Kurayuki
Profile Joined October 2010
Korea (South)36 Posts
November 21 2010 11:33 GMT
#34
Oh and just like blink stalker build, key is to keep your opponent's collosus number low
Kwaa
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden91 Posts
November 21 2010 11:41 GMT
#35
Rofl, wtf. I've been going for fast archons every game for a few days in pvp now, and it's been incredibly succesful, was thinking about posting some replays here.

Did I prehaps smash your face on the EU server?
MACRO HARD!
Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 11:44:24
November 21 2010 11:43 GMT
#36
On November 21 2010 20:41 Kwaa wrote:
Rofl, wtf. I've been going for fast archons every game for a few days in pvp now, and it's been incredibly succesful, was thinking about posting some replays here.

Did I prehaps smash your face on the EU server?


No, I've never been on the EU server. But I'm glad another person is saying how awesome this build is. I thought of it myself, but I no doubt believe others have as well.

Please post your replays.
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
bibbaly
Profile Joined October 2010
98 Posts
November 21 2010 11:57 GMT
#37
Sounds really interesting, don't let all the posters get you down and make you just abandon this strat. Sure it has holes in it but they can be patched up and a new way to play can be born.

Also Replay 4 is a broken link.
thesauceishot
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada333 Posts
November 21 2010 12:06 GMT
#38
I too did some testing a bit ago to come up with original and effective PvP unit compositions. I found that zealot/archon was a good counter to about a 1-2 colossus army. But once theres 2+ colossus plus more gateway units, zealot/archon starts to lose effectiveness. Also, with micro and forcefields its hard to use the archons effectively since they have short range, and move slow.

Booshack
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark15 Posts
November 21 2010 12:16 GMT
#39
On November 21 2010 19:07 Lobber wrote:
G: Rather than spending 300 minerals and 300 gas on tech structures then 100 minerals 300 gas on 1 archon, then moving out you could move out with the same army except 6 sentries and a couple extra zealots, FF him in and keep stalkers from kiting also you can then GS to reduce stalker dmg 20%...
H: Zealots are really slow, they can just kite you with stalkers/colossus forever, if you get charge to help that it's another 200minerals and 200 gas spent on tech making your army way to small to be useful...
Honestly I don't understand why the archon really helps... It's a worse meatshield than 2 zealots, doesn't have enough range to be really useful, the only thing it really has is that it could kill the opponents zealots faster. Seems the only way this works if it the opponent completely ignores scouting and doesn't add sentries to his standard build...


OP please respond to this post.
Seems to me like the 1 archon push is quite useless. So what is an actually good timing to attack with this build, assuming that you eventually have to transition to collossus anyway?
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
November 21 2010 12:28 GMT
#40
Yeah Socke was playing around with this with moderate success. Nothing extraordinary but might be more workable off of a minigun style fast expand. idk.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
November 21 2010 12:42 GMT
#41
Played around in unit tester, works alright in very open grounds with little micro, only problem is after the armies battle the colossus can ALWAYS run away and regroup, increasing in numbers... This means they eventually reach critical mass and go uncontested...

Also I don't really think archons add to much to this build... I mean the zealots do much more damage and have much more HP, the only real thing archons bring is a way to spend your gas...
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
Robellicose
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
England245 Posts
November 21 2010 12:44 GMT
#42
Must say in PvP i've been a big fan of 3gate + Stargate rather than 3gate robo. push out when 2/3 void rays are done. With the Void ray 'nerf' that means they do more dmg uncharged vs. armoured, the main weaknesses are pure blinkstalkers and DTs. Not yet lost a game with this strat to 4gate or 3gate robo. DT's need a cannon by the ramp for detection if you spot a twilight council and if the opponent goes collo then they shouldn't have enough gas to have an adequate anti-air defence. I hate protoss's lack of decent anti-air, so why not work that to my advantage in PvP?

Portentious and Pretentious
bibbaly
Profile Joined October 2010
98 Posts
November 21 2010 13:31 GMT
#43
Really like the build, did a couple of games with it and didn't lose against P even if they didnt go Collo.

Might need a bit of refinement but it is a really solid build that could be added to the list of great protoss builds.
Kwaa
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden91 Posts
November 21 2010 14:35 GMT
#44
If only Archons could destroy forcefields..

My PvP midgame currently looks as such: Archons, Immortals, Zealots (speed often) and some Stalkers/Sentries. And if they forcefield well, you are forced to run away. You can do this over and over, while losing some Zealots, but nothing to major.

When engaging, do it as if it were 3 range roaches. Move in, attack, move in, attack. Zealots and Archons up close > Stalkers/Colossi/Immortals.
MACRO HARD!
MuMeise
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany81 Posts
November 21 2010 14:52 GMT
#45
hey there. i tried a new build against colossi.. (new for me) since a few days.
basically i build carriers instead of colossi and the same composition of stalkers and lots.
monstly lots. later on with speed.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169459&currentpage=2

i attack with a timing push, when catapult and +1 air is ready. with that a carrier has 12 damage per interceptor. I won the last 5 matchups against P with this build, because everyone is building colossi at the moment ant against that.. carriers are enormous.
Basically you have to stay save the same way you do with a fast colossi build. You are voulnerable against early pushes etc etc

Rotcod
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom138 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 22:31:40
November 21 2010 15:05 GMT
#46
Hey,

I've been doing a similar build vs every race (with slight alterations ofc)

In PvP Its all about being agressive, I have 3 different timmings attack 1)when warpgate finishes(I do a slighlty more econ korean 4 warpgate leaving guys in gas) 2)then when Z legs is up (its not always possible to break the ramp at this point but gives you nice map control EXPAND) 3) when archons are up.

I'm 1700 diamond and I have limited success with it although it hasnt been refined to the extend 2/3 gate collossus has been so no suprise? makes a nice change

Edit: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107668-1v1-protoss-blistering-sands replay of me failing to punish an early expand because of FF
NerdErk
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1 Post
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 15:35:50
November 21 2010 15:35 GMT
#47
Some thoughts from those three ladder games you posted. I probably have the order wrong, but I hope you can tell which game I'm referencing.


1(Bottom Position on Steppes of War). This seems like a good push that he doesn't do a good job of defending. I don't think your Archons did too much damage early in the fight because of force fields, so it's hard to credit this concept with the victory.

2)(Xel'Naga Caverns) He pushes you with almost exclusively stalkers and immortals. Your zealots were the big tipping point, not the archons. If each of those archons were 2 stalkers instead, I think you would have done just as well.


3) His early push fails, but you only have 1 archon at the time, so I'm not sure if you can attribute that to your build. You probably could have held it just as well with a standard army for that timing. After that he's contained on one base and you have an over 30 food advantage, and you can win by simply having more stuff.

Ultimately, I'd say this is an interesting build, but I'd like to see a lot more test cases go into the mid-late game. Remember that you could get 2 stalkers or sentries for less than the cost of an archon (not even accounting for the tech building costs), and I think in all of the games you posted you would have won with either choice. In these games you simply killed or crippled them before colossi could become an issue, but that's not always going to work.

Hope that helps. I'd love to see another viable PvP build that doesn't rely on colossi.
BluzMan
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Russian Federation4235 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 15:36:02
November 21 2010 15:35 GMT
#48
FORCE FIELDS LOL. Colossus and blink stalker are both so popular because they shit on FF, otherwise, whoever gets it better wins in PvP.
You want 20 good men, but you need a bad pussy.
gr8ape
Profile Joined July 2008
Canada302 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 16:44:16
November 21 2010 16:41 GMT
#49
On November 22 2010 00:35 NerdErk wrote:
Hope that helps. I'd love to see another viable PvP build that doesn't rely on colossi.


open with 4 gate, or forge fe, get an economy/defense going, and then double stargate chronoboosted +1 speedrays.

That shit wrecks colossi and non blink stalkers. And blink stalkers are hard, but your ground and air army combined is alot more damaging than a bunch of blink stalkers

Void rays arent exactly what they used to be (in which case this build would completely overpower everything in pvp, everything), but having a fleet of +1 speed rays is not good news for your opponent....

I dont remember who said this, but i remember reading "void rays are the future of midgame pvp" and im starting to believe that
dobrzeee
Profile Joined February 2010
Poland71 Posts
November 21 2010 17:04 GMT
#50
isnt it better to go for dark shrine and try to harass with dts first. When opponent defends you can still go for zeal arch (dark templars can be archons too) to kill his push. This way it cost more minerals instead of gas which is better too.
there is no such thing as luck in the long run but run is never long enough
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
November 21 2010 17:27 GMT
#51
On November 22 2010 01:41 gr8ape wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2010 00:35 NerdErk wrote:
Hope that helps. I'd love to see another viable PvP build that doesn't rely on colossi.


open with 4 gate, or forge fe, get an economy/defense going, and then double stargate chronoboosted +1 speedrays.

That shit wrecks colossi and non blink stalkers. And blink stalkers are hard, but your ground and air army combined is alot more damaging than a bunch of blink stalkers

Void rays arent exactly what they used to be (in which case this build would completely overpower everything in pvp, everything), but having a fleet of +1 speed rays is not good news for your opponent....

I dont remember who said this, but i remember reading "void rays are the future of midgame pvp" and im starting to believe that


4gate loses too robo build, forge fe loses to all robo builds and blink stalkers. + If you see the forge you can just 1gate fe and be ahead. Speedrays in pvp are beasts, but you can never ever get them in the critical mass you need, blink stalkers will just own you before you get there, the kiwikaki build transitionss to colossi off 2bases because of that.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
Arch00
Profile Joined July 2010
United States233 Posts
November 21 2010 17:31 GMT
#52
Once it hits mid-late game and you're blocking his expo or whatever, can't you back off, tech to getting one colossus and just use it to run over all of his forcefields? Yea its like 700 minerals and 500 gas to build one unit just to break forcefields but its worth thinking about. Also opens up use of warp prisms for storm drops if you research that eventually.
www.twitch.tv/arch00 ~ Arch.391 SC2
gr8ape
Profile Joined July 2008
Canada302 Posts
November 21 2010 17:34 GMT
#53
On November 22 2010 02:27 Arcanefrost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2010 01:41 gr8ape wrote:
On November 22 2010 00:35 NerdErk wrote:
Hope that helps. I'd love to see another viable PvP build that doesn't rely on colossi.


open with 4 gate, or forge fe, get an economy/defense going, and then double stargate chronoboosted +1 speedrays.

That shit wrecks colossi and non blink stalkers. And blink stalkers are hard, but your ground and air army combined is alot more damaging than a bunch of blink stalkers

Void rays arent exactly what they used to be (in which case this build would completely overpower everything in pvp, everything), but having a fleet of +1 speed rays is not good news for your opponent....

I dont remember who said this, but i remember reading "void rays are the future of midgame pvp" and im starting to believe that


4gate loses too robo build, forge fe loses to all robo builds and blink stalkers. + If you see the forge you can just 1gate fe and be ahead. Speedrays in pvp are beasts, but you can never ever get them in the critical mass you need, blink stalkers will just own you before you get there, the kiwikaki build transitionss to colossi off 2bases because of that.


4 gate doesnt STRAIGHT up lose to robo build....sure it CAN lose but i dont think its a one sided match

I think that with the right timing (getting void rays with enough gateway units, not too many, not too few) is what would make this viable, because I agree that rushing vr's once you are on 2 bases will leave you open, and waiting for 2 base saturation will not give you enough firepower...
sjschmidt93
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2518 Posts
November 21 2010 17:42 GMT
#54
If archons were massive (like they should be) this composition would kick ass.
My grandpa could've proxied better, and not only does he have arthritis, he's also dead. -Sean "Day[9]" Plott
Durp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada3117 Posts
November 21 2010 17:51 GMT
#55
If you engage in the centre of Steppes of War and Delta Quadrant, and your opponent doesn't know where your army is. AND doesn't have an obs for colossus sight, AND doesn't have thermal lance, AND doesn't micro the colossus, AND doesn't forcefield properly- THEN YES, great composition.

It may be effective without micro, but at even mid-range diamond this will be shutdown by remotely competent forcefields and even the most timid of colossus kiting.
SOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoo Many BANELINGS!!
Raphy
Profile Joined August 2010
France8 Posts
November 21 2010 17:58 GMT
#56
Actually I've been trying this build on the ladder and I won all my PvP today, they all went colossi (one went 2 gate so this game was kindda different). I'm very enthusiastic about this build and it's efficiency, the only problems I noticed were the expansion (kindda late imo), the lack of scouting the no-robo includes (how can you be sure he's going colossi?), and of course the fact that colossi can run away and shoot units.

What I think is key about this build is to push just when the opponents is starting to have colossi (so meanwhile you have a few archons and a bunch of lots) - if he is on 1base it is a great timing - getting colossi is long and hard and expensive, he won't be having that many core units and archons really are great against colossi. Colossi just do so little damage against them, like against all heavy troops actually... Problem is they can run away, sure, but with that build you can easily overwhelm him (cause building colossi is so freakin expensive !). You can some stalkers to snipe some colossi out (against scattered units, colossi lose all it's power). That's what I did... It worked out very well.

Thanks for the build OP, I'll try to contribute to the post by testing it more.
GiygaS
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada1043 Posts
November 21 2010 18:24 GMT
#57
I'm gonna try this on my gold ladder today, except with DTs. The DTs force him to make observers with his time on Robo Facility or die. It seems to me like this build uses chargelots a lot like speedlings,where if he leaves his base, he dies.
AKA gigyas, gigas, giygas khan, giyga khan, giyga...
Proto_Protoss
Profile Joined September 2010
United States495 Posts
November 21 2010 18:28 GMT
#58
This feels like a really early abased type of play if you dont do some serious economic damage with your first few archons your going to be in trouble because once 3-4 collosus or just Immortals pop out your going to be in some trouble as none of them are biological units. You might own Zealots but the ranged units will probably own you.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up everytime we do." - Confucius
Kryptonite
Profile Joined June 2010
United States155 Posts
November 21 2010 19:01 GMT
#59
On November 22 2010 02:42 sjschmidt93 wrote:
If archons were massive (like they should be) this composition would kick ass.

omg I wish. Imagine PvT as well with Archons being massive.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/299590/fLcKrypt
SichuanPanda
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1542 Posts
November 21 2010 19:08 GMT
#60
On November 21 2010 18:55 happyness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2010 18:28 Spek wrote:
I did unit tests. Lots of unit tests.


Stopped reading there

User was temp banned for this post.


Thank you mods. Thank you so very much. This guys one liners were getting real bad.

I think Archons are far more viable than the people in this thread are giving credit to the OP for. On the other hand the replays show the build being performed against sub-par players (clearly not nearly as good as the OP), and so I really can't take those as proof of the build working. However I have to suspect that the Protoss late game will shift away from Colossus eventually.
i-bonjwa
RedChaos
Profile Joined November 2010
United States36 Posts
November 21 2010 19:08 GMT
#61
at first i thought the build might be decent at best, but after watching the 3 replays that you edited in, and think about it some more i really actually like it and it seems to have potential. i also like the idea where someone posted about getting DTs instead of HTs, doing as much dmg as possible, then morphing them into archons if they get detection or become less useful. about forcefields, i think that its not too bad against them if you use this unit comp of speedlots and archons simply for containing and getting an expo up instead of trying to run up a ramp (like in some of the replays), and if he tries to move out with forcefields, you could just back up and try again engaging a few seconds later. transitioning from this seems like it would work well too, since the HTs and DTs continue to be useful, and you could even transition into robo play if you want. the only problems i see would be someone who rushes dts to break the contain, since you dont have a robo and only would have cannons to defend your own base. anyways i like the build and will definitely try something like this out
"You tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is 'never try.'" - Homer Simpson
SichuanPanda
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1542 Posts
November 21 2010 19:14 GMT
#62
On November 22 2010 04:08 RedChaos wrote:
at first i thought the build might be decent at best, but after watching the 3 replays that you edited in, and think about it some more i really actually like it and it seems to have potential. i also like the idea where someone posted about getting DTs instead of HTs, doing as much dmg as possible, then morphing them into archons if they get detection or become less useful. about forcefields, i think that its not too bad against them if you use this unit comp of speedlots and archons simply for containing and getting an expo up instead of trying to run up a ramp (like in some of the replays), and if he tries to move out with forcefields, you could just back up and try again engaging a few seconds later. transitioning from this seems like it would work well too, since the HTs and DTs continue to be useful, and you could even transition into robo play if you want. the only problems i see would be someone who rushes dts to break the contain, since you dont have a robo and only would have cannons to defend your own base. anyways i like the build and will definitely try something like this out


It definitely cannot be the killing-blow at least if we talk about top level Diamond, but perhaps as a timing push (before lance/critical mass Colossi come out) this could actually be pretty solid. I will give Spek credit it is an intriguing build, but I think it needs some refinement before we see any notable or top level players adopting a style similar to this.
i-bonjwa
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
November 21 2010 19:17 GMT
#63
On November 22 2010 03:28 Proto_Protoss wrote:
This feels like a really early abased type of play if you dont do some serious economic damage with your first few archons your going to be in trouble because once 3-4 collosus or just Immortals pop out your going to be in some trouble as none of them are biological units. You might own Zealots but the ranged units will probably own you.


So you didn't read any of the comments or watch any of the replays, or notice when he said he attacks with his first Archon, which is before he gets 3-4 Colossi out? C'mon now.

I want to see this strategy against more competent opponents. I think any build would have worked for you in many cases. Massive units break Force Fields yes? Maybe Archons will be buffed, but it seems unlikely to buff a build that already counters another build. We'll see.
There is no one like you in the universe.
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 19:34:36
November 21 2010 19:33 GMT
#64
On November 21 2010 18:47 Darksoldierr wrote:
Force fields tear appart this strat i would say

ive been doing a charge rush pressure into expand into collossus as my staple, but tbh even with forcefields the charge rush usually GGs them. I havent lost with it yet to anyone, even DTs, though that game wasnt a DT rush. Charge lots rape blink stalkers actually and ive also had many games where they try to hold the ramp with forcefield by trapping a few of my zealots.. its just that chargelots are so fast and powerful that they are forced to run and its damn near impossible to chain forcefield the ramp since zealots take so long to kill with speed and micro. Normtall what happens is if they are trying to hold the ramp, half my army gets cut at the bottom, and the other half takes barely any damage while dealing tons because they are trying to kite the whole time.

TBH even if they chain FF'd the ramp you're fine, because you expand when you push and its impossible for them to get a meaningful amount of collossus to beat chargelots, which are actually quite good against collossus until they get a ton because they wrap around the protoss ball and take very little splash. I also havent lost to mass zoning to sentries and have even broken a sentry with cannons turtle at an expansion. The reason it still works against FF and blink is that protoss' only answer for the chargelot is the chargelot. Zealots are okay, but they will never match your zealot count without sacrificing their entire gameplay in which case you have charge and a safe expansion and they dont. Even if you go sentry/stalker with good zoning it will take such an eternity to kill the zealots that they can just walk away. Stalkers/sentry do pitiful damage to zealots.

If you havent tried it yet. Just try, it will absoultely change your perspective if your micro isnt abysmal. Just do something like gate/cyber/gate/twilight/gate/gate push out once charge finishes and go straight at them. I do this off of one gas as it allows you to still 4 gate it AND expand, due to the fact that you arent really getting stalkers. I normally only build 1 stalker all game except the couple times they tried to switch to VR in desperation. When that happens I just grab some stalkers and grab blink. honestly chargelots are a really good way to secure an expansion because they are so fast that even if somehow you dont win with your initial push... you can just run and still have a great army that can defend an expo. I recommend if your first push fails and theyre going robo (which one happen because chargelots absolutely crush fast tech robo 1 base builds) that you add some stalkers sooner as their dps is nice on their collossus with the zealots tanking.

Dont hate on it till you tried it, ive been doing it, with great success against high level opponents.

Edit: to clarify, i dont personally get the archon, i just push out with charge, expand, and transition if i need to.
Gooey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States944 Posts
November 21 2010 19:51 GMT
#65
All three of those new videos are of you doing a 5 warpgate all in.... You just do an all in build with a new twist. That is the reason your protoss buddy can't go collosus in pvp, because you just all in...

I do think that chargelots are underused in pvp, though. Early chargelots seem to work very well, so long as you do not see your opponent going for air tech. I would, however, would like to see this as a 4 gate expand build in pvp and not a 5 gate all in. Unless your plan is just to end the game in the first 10 minutes and that is your all in build. You are just using different units.

4 gate expand is a very safe and standard way to transition out of the early game in pvp. I could see this working as a great harass/pressure build if you actually had plans to take it out of the early game. Adding on a robo for warp prism and a couple of observers, plus a DT shrine before you take a 3rd would work wonders, assuming you don't play someone who goes 6 warpgate 1 robo 1 stargate on one base -_-'

Gateway heavy play will certainly whittle down a robo-heavy army. You just have to chip away at your opponent. The units themselves are all personal preference, although I do like seeing archons used for once, and I think they are needed for pushing in the later stages of the game. They are psyonic, so immortals don't do any extra to them, nor zealots. Collosi don't really do that great deal of damage to them either.

I would like to see some replays of games that get into the 3rd or 4th expansion phase before we can really see how well the heavy chargelot composition works out. I think that later on, unless your HTs manage to snipe sentries, that forcefields would hurt you badly if you were to hit head on. Hitting a robo army with this mix from multiple angles would work wonders, however.

I am actually going to go play now and test some aggressive gateway builds. Good luck with your strat! And please get, out of the 1base mindset. You should really try to push for the later stages of the game, because a good protoss player will just shut down your 1 base all in and overwhelm you with economy.
www.twitch.tv/Thatgooey
Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
November 21 2010 20:07 GMT
#66
On November 22 2010 02:04 dobrzeee wrote:
isnt it better to go for dark shrine and try to harass with dts first. When opponent defends you can still go for zeal arch (dark templars can be archons too) to kill his push. This way it cost more minerals instead of gas which is better too.


This is definitely something I want to try. The reason I haven't tried this yet is because templar archives doesn't take long to make at all, so you have your archon way earlier, and you have more zealots. And in my opinion, it's the zealots that do the damage, so the more you have in your first push, the better.
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
November 21 2010 20:20 GMT
#67
On November 22 2010 04:51 Gooey wrote:
All three of those new videos are of you doing a 5 warpgate all in.... You just do an all in build with a new twist. That is the reason your protoss buddy can't go collosus in pvp, because you just all in...

I do think that chargelots are underused in pvp, though. Early chargelots seem to work very well, so long as you do not see your opponent going for air tech. I would, however, would like to see this as a 4 gate expand build in pvp and not a 5 gate all in. Unless your plan is just to end the game in the first 10 minutes and that is your all in build. You are just using different units.

4 gate expand is a very safe and standard way to transition out of the early game in pvp. I could see this working as a great harass/pressure build if you actually had plans to take it out of the early game. Adding on a robo for warp prism and a couple of observers, plus a DT shrine before you take a 3rd would work wonders, assuming you don't play someone who goes 6 warpgate 1 robo 1 stargate on one base -_-'

Gateway heavy play will certainly whittle down a robo-heavy army. You just have to chip away at your opponent. The units themselves are all personal preference, although I do like seeing archons used for once, and I think they are needed for pushing in the later stages of the game. They are psyonic, so immortals don't do any extra to them, nor zealots. Collosi don't really do that great deal of damage to them either.

I would like to see some replays of games that get into the 3rd or 4th expansion phase before we can really see how well the heavy chargelot composition works out. I think that later on, unless your HTs manage to snipe sentries, that forcefields would hurt you badly if you were to hit head on. Hitting a robo army with this mix from multiple angles would work wonders, however.

I am actually going to go play now and test some aggressive gateway builds. Good luck with your strat! And please get, out of the 1base mindset. You should really try to push for the later stages of the game, because a good protoss player will just shut down your 1 base all in and overwhelm you with economy.


I pretty much agree with this post. When I was playing those games, I did get 5 gates, but at no point did I ever think I was all in. That extra gateway just always felt necessary to me at the time, because you have to produce so many zealots and archons. To me it feels like a 4 gate build which uses stalkers. I will experiment with going 4 gate, then expanding before I put down any more. With this strategy, I have so much control, it really feels like I can expand at will. And I'd like to see some late game play as well, to see how this strategy works, but I'm not going to purposely not kill them when I have an opportunity.
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
GoldenH
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1115 Posts
November 22 2010 03:41 GMT
#68
So I'm not so worried about forcefields with this build, I'll just get a hallucinated colossus to stomp them, but how are you supposed to get up the ramps?
"(Dudes are) not going to say "Buy this game — I cried at the end". (...) I suppose the secret is to find a game that makes you shoot eight million fuckin' dudes and then cry about how awesome it is to shoot eight million fuckin' dudes." - Tim Rogers
Antiochus
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada548 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 04:13:50
November 22 2010 04:12 GMT
#69
On November 22 2010 12:41 GoldenH wrote:
So I'm not so worried about forcefields with this build, I'll just get a hallucinated colossus to stomp them, but how are you supposed to get up the ramps?


That is a very interesting, your theory crafting intrigues me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. On a related note when was the last time you did that in an actual game?

+ Show Spoiler +
Protip: Hallucinated colossus don't break forcefields anymore, spend more time playing the game and less time theory crafting.

All play and no work makes Jack unemployed.
tarath
Profile Joined April 2009
United States377 Posts
November 22 2010 04:43 GMT
#70
This is pretty interesting, I'll definitely give it a shot.

I would ignore the people saying it will never work (most of whom didn't try or watch the replays). If you look at the first few pages of replies to builds that are now standards (like the kcdc build) they are full of people saying its a retarded idea that will never work.

I'm pretty impressed at how efficient chargelot/archon seems to be against small numbers of collosi + gateway units.

I'd like to see more replays that are on bigger maps (not steppes of war).

Anyways I'm psyched to give this a shot
Kiarip
Profile Joined August 2008
United States1835 Posts
November 22 2010 04:49 GMT
#71
This is not a good strategy, and it doesn't work.

the main problem with this is that the colossus-going player can just camp up at his main or nat depending on how many bases you two have, and accumulate colossis and sentry/energy, then he'll push out and stomp all over your stuff.

It's basically just a mass-gateway unit style which has less sentries and stalkers in favor of archons. The right response to it is camp with forcefields until you have a lot of colossi and then roll him over.
yarkO
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada810 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 04:58:58
November 22 2010 04:58 GMT
#72
nvm -
When you are prepared, there's no such thing as pressure.
Enervate
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1769 Posts
November 22 2010 05:11 GMT
#73
Doesn't blink stalkers beat this build pretty easily? Blink stalkers are becoming a pretty popular opening. Zealot archon are both melee (kinda) units while stalkers are ranged. Mass ranged units typically beat mass melee simply because ranged units can all attack at the same time. Blink would also make mass stalkers even more powerful against zealot archon.
5ahj4g
Profile Joined August 2010
72 Posts
November 22 2010 05:12 GMT
#74
this build would look good if you could get your opponent to agree not to use sentries

or maybe build some unit that can smash forcefields....


oh wait
ShamTao
Profile Joined September 2010
United States419 Posts
November 22 2010 05:33 GMT
#75
I don't think blink stalkers would be *super effective. Zealots are very hard for them to kill, and with charge, the stalkers would be forced to blink away, so you can just retreat yourself and take minor damage. Not sure where the archon would go in this regard, but still. Charge is super underused, I get it a lot.
In the game of drones, you win or you die!
jacosajh
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
2919 Posts
November 22 2010 05:48 GMT
#76
I really don't know how anyone would forgo a 9 range colossus in favor of Archons. They cost pretty much the same. Archons cost less minerals, but more gas, and I'd trade minerals for gas religiously if I could.

The pro of an Archon hitting air is irrelevant as rarely anyone will go air in PvP. I can see this working more in PvZ and PvT along with forcefields, but definitely not in PvP.

Even without forcefields, I would think that pure blink stalkers + colossus would destroy this build. And you would require more micro to use this strategy than stalkers + colossus. And that's giving credit to your build that it will even hold up. I can't see Zealots holding up very well vs even 2-3 Colossus that are controlled well. Any good protoss will force you to Charge, then back up so your Archons fall behind, and then destroy all your Zealots. Stalkers will just focus the Archons, and it's GG.

Also, unit tests are good to get a general idea of what units beat what, but take a lot of factors out of the game. The guy who got temp banned for saying that was pretty much right. Anyone who bases a strategy off unit tests, I usually don't take very seriously.
MalVortex
Profile Joined May 2010
United States119 Posts
November 22 2010 05:54 GMT
#77
Charge zealots are good, but I'm not sure they are worth rushing to like blink stalkers are... At any rate, all your replays basically show chargelots stomping people who teched poorly or expanded too greedily. None of the replays had colossus in any meaningful way, and I'm quite sure this composition would lose to a colossus-backed army assuming equal resource cost.


As others have pointed out, your composition is essentially all melee based. Forcefields would prevent a huuuge amount of your army from doing damage, while the colossus just AoE down the zealots with impunity. Charge would prevent the zealots from getting split initially, but the protoss player is very much free to just forcefield himself and force the zealots back (it doesn't matter if a stalker or two is scarified, the core army is protected with this action). Archons are not particularly weak to colossus, but colossus/stalker/sentry isn't weak to archon either. The archon would not get into firing range against extended lance colossus, and just float and sputter until it dies.


What you have shown is that rushing to charge and then just pounding the other guy into oblivion with them works. Using archons as a gas sponge is a cool idea, given you are dumping essentially all your minerals into the zealots, preventing higher tech stuff like stalkers or colossus of your own from being produced. As an early midgame push, this seems decent. As an answer to colossus, this doesn't. Honestly, I would be more interested in seeing replays against blink stalker builds, or people who know how to 4gate properly (the one in your replay was... not good), or 3 gate robo builds that actually scout and respond to unit compositions.
People are like the stars - There are bright ones and those that are dim
JoeSchmoe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2058 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 06:37:29
November 22 2010 06:36 GMT
#78
I watched the 3 new reps u uploaded. Must say I'm unimpressed. In all those games your opponent makes critical mistakes and are just plain awful.

1st game: you already won after the initial encounter. guy doesn't micro his stalkers. you were 130 supply to 98 at time of engagement and his FF were horrible and he moves his colossus to the front.

2nd game: your opponent goes FE on steppes, and he goes mass zealots + sentries? this is pretty much the antibuild against chargelots + archons. prolly thought he was playing against zerg.

3rd game: guy made like 4 immortals despite knowing you were going lots + archons, loses 4 stalkers to no micro, runs into your base, loses all units, then in panic he throws up 2 additional gates (like 6 total?) to make up for his poor macro. Plus he added another stargate. This guy had 8 production buildings on one base.

Please post a replays where the opponent actually knows what he's doing or involves late game colossus vs your strat
Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
November 22 2010 07:31 GMT
#79
On November 22 2010 14:11 Enervate wrote:
Doesn't blink stalkers beat this build pretty easily? Blink stalkers are becoming a pretty popular opening. Zealot archon are both melee (kinda) units while stalkers are ranged. Mass ranged units typically beat mass melee simply because ranged units can all attack at the same time. Blink would also make mass stalkers even more powerful against zealot archon.


I played a game against a great player (easily better than I am). He went mass blink stalker, into a timed expansion. My build failed. Turns out the correct counter to zealot/archon is indeed blink stalker. I still believe this build is great though, because if you notice him going blink stalker, you can just get a dark shrine instead of a templar archives.

The zealot/archon build still destroys any robo build. Collosi are needed in great numbers to start being effective against zealot/archon, but by the time that happens (if it does) zealot/archon already has map control, and therefore can really hammer out the economy.
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
Cryosin
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States182 Posts
November 22 2010 07:40 GMT
#80
I wouldnt suggest using this on 1 base. Zealot/Archon is my have fun 2v2/4v4 build and as awesome and fun as it is, it just doesnt work off 1 base at all.

But yes, once you have a ton of Archons its basically unstoppable because you can reinforce so fast.

dAko
Profile Joined November 2010
Switzerland18 Posts
November 22 2010 08:17 GMT
#81
Faced this yesterday in ladder and worked very well against my Blink Stalker Build. I retreated and teched up to Collossi + Mass Sentry and then won in the end. But i think it is an extremely good build to first of suprise your enemy, who is opening usual Robo stuff, and secondly to Contain your enemy while expanding and teching to something else as well. I wasn't really able to move out because on certain maps where there is no good point to FF with only a handfull of Sentrys you just get overwhelmed. (Delta Quadrant was the map, i think it works great there.)
"The best way to avoid a problem, is to solve it."
s4m222
Profile Joined March 2010
United States272 Posts
November 22 2010 08:38 GMT
#82
going zealot heavy vs a colossus, you will only have a small window where you can win with sheer numbers. Would be better to get chargelots and blink stalkers to focus colosuss down. Definitely an all in type build.
DaemonX
Profile Joined September 2010
545 Posts
November 22 2010 09:44 GMT
#83
On November 21 2010 23:35 Kwaa wrote:
If only Archons could destroy forcefields..
Um, they can?
Archon through HT tech = research free spell called Feedback, which one-shots sentries.
Feedback spam, retreat, morph, attack. (75 energy < 100 gas)
GG.
dAko
Profile Joined November 2010
Switzerland18 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 10:41:37
November 22 2010 10:10 GMT
#84
On November 22 2010 18:44 DaemonX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2010 23:35 Kwaa wrote:
If only Archons could destroy forcefields..
Um, they can?
Archon through HT tech = research free spell called Feedback, which one-shots sentries.
Feedback spam, retreat, morph, attack. (75 energy < 100 gas)
GG.


hmm... that sounds interesting. Wort a shot i think.
How about this as an Opening in PvZ? Sounds really strong and it transitions very good into IST. Also it should be good against any T1-T2 units shouldn't it?
"The best way to avoid a problem, is to solve it."
BluzMan
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Russian Federation4235 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 10:55:04
November 22 2010 10:52 GMT
#85
On November 22 2010 18:44 DaemonX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2010 23:35 Kwaa wrote:
If only Archons could destroy forcefields..
Um, they can?
Archon through HT tech = research free spell called Feedback, which one-shots sentries.
Feedback spam, retreat, morph, attack. (75 energy < 100 gas)
GG.


That's all fine in theory but:
1) You can't snipe sentries with HT outside battle. No way, HT being sniped by stalkers is a much more probable outcome.
2) Any HT in battle that is there for feedbacking is not an Archon. He deals 0 damage.

This could work, but in reality your zealots and archons will be way ahead your HT, just because of how unit compositions work. For your success, your back line (HT) must reach (in casting range) his back line (sentries), whereas to accomplish their job their back line (sentries) must reach your front line (zealots/archons). Their task is much much easier, meaning you will fail more often than not. Face it, you will not be able to feedback sentries on equal resources if you don't commit to the fight (trading a HT for each sentry is hardly a solution), nor you will be able to feedback sentries before they throw enough FFs (because of the formation issues described above) if you do commit. And unless you research storm (which makes it an entirely different build), HT's are much worse fighters than sentries, they take too much time to morph.
You want 20 good men, but you need a bad pussy.
BluzMan
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Russian Federation4235 Posts
November 22 2010 10:54 GMT
#86
On November 22 2010 19:10 dAko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2010 18:44 DaemonX wrote:
On November 21 2010 23:35 Kwaa wrote:
If only Archons could destroy forcefields..
Um, they can?
Archon through HT tech = research free spell called Feedback, which one-shots sentries.
Feedback spam, retreat, morph, attack. (75 energy < 100 gas)
GG.


hmm... that sounds interesting. Wort a shot i think.
How about this as an Opening in PvZ? Sounds really strong and it transitions very good into IST. Also it should be good against any T1-T2 units shouldn't it?


Archons were hardly a viable opening against muta in BW, in SC2 they are even worse. At best you will be contained for like 10 minutes, desperately trying to make your archons hit a single mutalisk, with the zerg chipping away at your probes slowly, but reliably.
You want 20 good men, but you need a bad pussy.
MilesTeg
Profile Joined September 2010
France1271 Posts
November 22 2010 11:50 GMT
#87
Interesting. I wonder if there would be any chance to fit hallucination into the build? The lack of scouting is what would worry me the most at my (noob) level. Right now I'm hearing it loses to stargate, blink stalkers (not sure how though), dark templars, all this is fine as long as you can see it first.

Not sure about using dark templars, as you will need as many minerals as possible IMO.
Wartortle
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia504 Posts
November 22 2010 15:22 GMT
#88
if the problem is FF could u use hallucinated colossi to break them?
Wayem
Profile Joined May 2010
France455 Posts
November 22 2010 15:26 GMT
#89
On November 23 2010 00:22 Jayzo wrote:
if the problem is FF could u use hallucinated colossi to break them?


Sadly, doesn't work anymore. :p
"who needs micro when you can have more stuff ?" -day9
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
November 22 2010 15:29 GMT
#90
On November 23 2010 00:22 Jayzo wrote:
if the problem is FF could u use hallucinated colossi to break them?


No, I'll let you figure that one out.


Well I tried this, and It failed pretty badly. The chargelot worked well early on, but once they realized what I was doing they played defensively and abused the hell out of cliffwalking...its been pretty frustrating.

The cliffwalk is what really kills this build imo.
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Brandus
Profile Joined September 2010
148 Posts
November 22 2010 16:17 GMT
#91
seems like chargelots are like 80% of the effectiveness of this build. Mass chargelots behave like zerglings on the battlefield, swarming and surrounding. You could fill out the rest with anythings else for moderate success. I agree with the person earlier who said void rays would be a better complement to chargelots than archons.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
November 22 2010 16:33 GMT
#92
Zealot-archon in PvP isn't new.... White-ra was using it as a transition from blink stalkers in the beta. I've used it since I saw that.

As for the efficacy, it's cost-effective in un-microed battles on open fields against collosi compositions until the army sizes get large. The first problem is that the collosi composition has a a huge range/splash advantage. If you throw in terrain or a choke, the collosi composition wins easily. The second problem is that forcefields completely dominate zealot-archon. With good forcefields (a given at moderate-to-high level play), zealot-archon doesn't even get a shot off against collosi-stalker.

If you open blink against collosi and have been trading units so that the army sizes are small, you can go zealot-archon to deny the robo player's nat before he's got it set up. But you can't push up a ramp, and you lose if you let him get 4+ collosi or 2 collosi, a few sentries, and his nat.
Khaladas
Profile Joined May 2010
United States223 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 23:13:10
November 22 2010 18:29 GMT
#93
First off, let me just make a suggestion that you move these replays to sc2replays.org or some other similar site. Mediafire is horrible, I think i clicked on 2-3 ads before I found the right link to actually download the replay.

I agree that Archons are underused, and possibly slightly underrated, and I also commend the OP for thinking out of the box.

A few comments on the replays, hopefully this will help you flush out the strategy a bit more.

Vs gino replay #2
In this replay gino had a lot of non-blink stalkers and a few immortals/sentries. The stalkers proved pretty worthless since he didn't have enough force fields to keep the chargelots at range. Less stalkers and more zeal/sentry would have possibly worked better for him.

vs chaosdream
Again here, the guy had a lot of non-blink stalkers and sentries. Once you got chargelots he didn't have enough energy left in the sentries to make the stalkers do their job. The archons hardly even played a role as you had pretty much wiped the floor with your chargelots by the time the first one popped out. Again, i'd like to see your opponent with more of a zealot/sentry/immortal mix, chargelots + anything would have won you that battle.

Vs Pogoman
He went for 3 gate expand into colossus. This is a relatively weak play against any sort of aggresssion, especially on a short run distance map. You did the smart thing by pushing him relatively early with a very strong composition of chargelot/sentry. He would have needed to hold you off for a couple more minutes to fully realize the power of what he was trying to do. I think he might have even been better off getting some early immortals rather than teching AND trying to get an expansion up at roughly the same time.

Some conclusions from what i'm seeing so far:
In these 3 replays it feels like won largely because you had chargelots and you simply outplayed your opponents. The archons definitely played their role, but one could easily argue had you DT rushed you would have probably won all 3 games since none of your opponents had an obs out, and I would imagine you could have skipped archons all together and just gotten more chargelots/sentries and done just as well.

This feels somewhat like a DT rush in the build order, except with DTs you are relying a bit on trickery, whereas with this it's much more straightforward, so I really like that aspect of this build.

Like DT rushing, you don't have DT protection, but I think if you are willing to roll the dice on that aspect you are going to be looking pretty good good vs a lot of PvP builds since you are getting early charge along with your Archons.
time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a bananna
Skee
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada702 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 20:19:37
November 22 2010 20:19 GMT
#94
I have been doing 3 gate chargelot expansion into 6 gate archons for a while...
Gemini_19
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1237 Posts
November 22 2010 20:36 GMT
#95
White Ra did a style like this off of a blink stalker opening in beta.

Link
@GGemini19 GM Protoss | http://www.twitch.tv/geminisc2 | I <333 HerO & Trap | Check out my Build of the Week series on /r/allthingsprotoss, TL, or Spawning Tool
thnikkaman
Profile Joined October 2010
19 Posts
November 22 2010 20:59 GMT
#96
I am a high platinum level player at the moment but I am moving up hopefully to diamond pretty soon. I just went on an 8 game win streak with this strat and its still going.

But what i do is I open with dts. I know that most people in plat are bad and dont get their obs out soon enough but the odd player does and when that happens i just pull back and expand. if they have cannons i am pretty much free to expand without hassle cause he cant push with my dts on the field.

if he gets obs then i can just morph my dts to archons and get ready for a big timing push with around 4 or so stalkers, a ton of speed zealots and some archons mixed in.

it seems very effective, i just dont know if the players at my level are just bad or my strat is really working. but thanks to the poster for the strat that I worked off of so i can move up in the rankings!
megagoten
Profile Joined October 2010
318 Posts
November 22 2010 21:05 GMT
#97
it seems the spirit of breaking war of the world is fast chargelots
i'll try anything to break the current pvp
Kurayuki
Profile Joined October 2010
Korea (South)36 Posts
November 22 2010 21:07 GMT
#98
On November 21 2010 20:41 Kwaa wrote:
Rofl, wtf. I've been going for fast archons every game for a few days in pvp now, and it's been incredibly succesful, was thinking about posting some replays here.

Did I prehaps smash your face on the EU server?

Let me see.
1. Stats? Ratings? Care to show that you're doing so great with that fast archon against high tier players?

Since I have to laugh at the hilarity of how hostile this post is, please dont brag about success against people who cant even effectively ramp block or utilize forcefield to render your mostly zealot and archon composed army useless.

Funny if you were on NA account I'd say feel free to call me up any time for a match. Though personally I dislike use of collosus in PvP match up and rarely ever go fast collosus build off of one base, I'd be more than obliged to have a match.

I'm only a 2.1k diamond though I keep it around 2.1k despite the fact that I experiment heavily on ladder since custom game experiment is ineffective due to the fact most custom game opponents are not at competitive level.
ItsYoungLee
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)227 Posts
November 22 2010 21:12 GMT
#99
As a former top 200 protoss whose strongest matchup was PvP, I can solidly support this strategy.

Zealot Archon owns any colossus build, especially if you start out with a dark shrine and force the other protoss to be defensive with their observers and are caught off guard. If they either (1) Don't know you're going archons and are sitting waiting for the DTs to come to their base or (2) Don't know you're expanding and you mass zealots archons, it's pretty much GG - this unit comp owns colossus so hard. Also, if the colossus tries to abuse the terrain, then it's so easy to just research blink and get a few blink stalkers to force the colossus to run around.
ePParamedico.160 (formerly ElParamedico)
Lucius2
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany548 Posts
November 22 2010 21:12 GMT
#100
i gave this build some tries and i came to the conclusion that it doesnt work vs good players. often i got stomped by a simple 4 gate when charge is actually already done and the first archon is up, but i just died, cause i didnt have enough stuff. all the teching eats too many resources where the other guy just spams more units. even charge and an archon wont do any difference.
thnikkaman
Profile Joined October 2010
19 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 21:16:50
November 22 2010 21:16 GMT
#101
On November 23 2010 06:12 Lucius2 wrote:
i gave this build some tries and i came to the conclusion that it doesnt work vs good players. often i got stomped by a simple 4 gate when charge is actually already done and the first archon is up, but i just died, cause i didnt have enough stuff. all the teching eats too many resources where the other guy just spams more units. even charge and an archon wont do any difference.


are you going dts? cause usually if someone is 4 gating they dont have their robo up in time for obs
or maybe they do i dunno just asking if thats the case or not.
Lucius2
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany548 Posts
November 22 2010 21:23 GMT
#102
no i was specifically going the archons, its extremely hard to scout if someone goes 4 gate or gets a robo. and if theres a robo u instant lose, when having dts.
Khaladas
Profile Joined May 2010
United States223 Posts
November 22 2010 21:25 GMT
#103
[QUOTE]On November 23 2010 06:12 Lucius2 wrote:
i gave this build some tries and i came to the conclusion that it doesnt work vs good players. often i got stomped by a simple 4 gate when charge is actually already done and the first archon is up, but i just died, cause i didnt have enough stuff. all the teching eats too many resources where the other guy just spams more units. even charge and an archon wont do any difference.[/QUOTE

How many sentries did you have blocking your ramp when you lost?
time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a bananna
Lucius2
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany548 Posts
November 22 2010 21:29 GMT
#104
[QUOTE]On November 23 2010 06:25 Nasdrova wrote:
[QUOTE]On November 23 2010 06:12 Lucius2 wrote:
i gave this build some tries and i came to the conclusion that it doesnt work vs good players. often i got stomped by a simple 4 gate when charge is actually already done and the first archon is up, but i just died, cause i didnt have enough stuff. all the teching eats too many resources where the other guy just spams more units. even charge and an archon wont do any difference.[/QUOTE

How many sentries did you have blocking your ramp when you lost?[/QUOTE]

not that many, like 1 or 2, since everything in that build costs so much gas. and on blistering sands i got roflstomped, because of the backdoor
Deathfairy
Profile Joined August 2010
148 Posts
November 22 2010 21:51 GMT
#105
On November 23 2010 03:29 Nasdrova wrote:
First off, let me just make a suggestion that you move these replays to sc2replays.org or some other similar site. Mediafire is horrible, I think i clicked on 2-3 ads before I found the right link to actually download the replay.

I agree that Archons are underused, and possibly slightly underrated, and I also commend the OP for thinking out of the box.

A few comments on the replays, hopefully this will help you flush out the strategy a bit more.

Vs gino replay #2
In this replay gino had a terrible unit composition, and even worse micro during the key battle in your base. The immortals should be focus firing the archons since they are armored units, but it looks like they are hitting the zealots. His army composition was mostly stalkers and immortals and a couple sentries. WOuld be good to see a replay where your opponent had immortals/zealot/sentry instead.

vs chaosdream
Again here, the guy had a lot of non-blink stalkers and sentries. Once you got chargelots he didn't have enough energy left in the sentries to make the stalkers do their job. The archons hardly even played a role as you had pretty much wiped the floor with your chargelots by the time the first one popped out. Again, i'd like to see your opponent with more of a zealot/sentry/immortal mix, chargelots + anything would have won you that battle.

Vs Pogoman
He went for 3 gate expand into colossus. This is a relatively weak play against any sort of aggresssion, especially on a short run distance map. You did the smart thing by pushing him relatively early with a very strong composition of chargelot/sentry. He would have needed to hold you off for a couple more minutes to fully realize the power of what he was trying to do. I think he might have even been better off getting some early immortals rather than teching AND trying to get an expansion up at roughly the same time.

Some conclusions from what i'm seeing so far:
In these 3 replays it feels like won largely because you had chargelots and you simply outplayed your opponents. The archons definitely played their role, but one could easily argue had you DT rushed you would have probably won all 3 games since none of your opponents had an obs out, and I would imagine you could have skipped archons all together and just gotten more chargelots/sentries and done just as well.

This feels somewhat like a DT rush in the build order, except with DTs you are relying a bit on trickery, whereas with this it's much more straightforward, so I really like that aspect of this build.

Like DT rushing, you don't have DT protection, but I think if you are willing to roll the dice on that aspect you are going to be looking pretty good good vs a lot of PvP builds since you are getting early charge along with your Archons.



"The immortals should be focus firing the archons since they are armored units" Kind of hard to read anything else past this... imho
adrift
Profile Joined August 2010
192 Posts
November 22 2010 22:02 GMT
#106
This has the same problem any non-colossus PvP build does: forcefield.

I try a lot of things to avoid the colossus battles but if your opponent makes enough sentries and has decent micro everything is just inferior. Immortal/Phoenix builds look like they rape colossus on paper and I do win a good amount of PvPs with them but there is always going to be the problem where he can control the fight with forcefield and you can't. This is even worse when you don't have phoenixes and are relying on archons and their terrible range

Archons are surprisingly good in PvP though. I ended up making them in a game unplanned the other day to help spend my gas (I was going mainly immortal/chargelot) and they did a lot better than I expected.
Stirlitz
Profile Joined September 2010
Greece28 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 22:12:12
November 22 2010 22:11 GMT
#107
Edit: Bad comment, delete, plz
KahunaNui
Profile Joined October 2010
Spain257 Posts
November 22 2010 23:15 GMT
#108
What about doing a 2-gate or a gas steal so he cannot go so heavy on those sentries?

I think this would work better with Shrine than Archives for the reasons mentioned, and I also think that a 4 gate Charge expand sounds interesting. What about using gas in +2/+2 btw?

I can only try it in my high-class superbronze though...
Q. You've been criticized for using cheesy builds in the past, but now people are saying that you've played some good games today. A. I'm glad that they think that way, but that won't stop me from using cheesy builds.(oGsHyperdub)
Khaladas
Profile Joined May 2010
United States223 Posts
November 22 2010 23:16 GMT
#109
On November 23 2010 06:51 Deathfairy wrote:
"The immortals should be focus firing the archons since they are armored units" Kind of hard to read anything else past this... imho


My mistake, I fixed that. Still doesn't change the fact that you need a lot of sentries to combat chargelots with stalker/immortal army. 1-2 isn't enough. No amount of micro would have saved him in this case,.
time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a bananna
Wartortle
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia504 Posts
November 22 2010 23:47 GMT
#110
On November 23 2010 00:26 Wayem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2010 00:22 Jayzo wrote:
if the problem is FF could u use hallucinated colossi to break them?


Sadly, doesn't work anymore. :p


i didnt think so either but i thought day9 mentioned it in sundays daily... maybe im wrong.
Daedalus81
Profile Joined November 2010
17 Posts
November 23 2010 00:36 GMT
#111
I occasionally have been using archons in PvP, but its not viable in 100% of matches. I did just manage to win one vs a 2k protoss though. I got really lazy when my push decimated him and I should have been macroing, but whatever I suppose. The push came early enough where he was still trying to get colossi and he likely didn't have gas for enough sentries. My archons melted his zealots and my zealots got in his face. He blunk to my VRs, but that was a big mistake.

[image loading]
sas911
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada113 Posts
November 23 2010 02:27 GMT
#112
I'm not entirely sure because I'm not THAT good of a player yet, but it seemed surprisingly viable. It's really aggressive, and I mean timing the ff to stop CHARGElots is pretty hard. Last game (link-wise) you posted actually had the guy originally use a decent ff, that seperated your first archon with some zealots, though his micro definitely could've been better. Still, the aggressiveness shuts down fast collossus, and I like that you actually use that map control, making a nice expo that lets you get ahead econ-wise really well. Definitely worth a shot, as in every pvp I've played it really is ALWAYS who has more collossus, and who can snipe them faster in mid-late game..
Arch00
Profile Joined July 2010
United States233 Posts
November 23 2010 02:32 GMT
#113
I've had some success using a variant of this build vs terran, using archons and chargelots to bridge the gap to storm HT's. Mid diamond level
www.twitch.tv/arch00 ~ Arch.391 SC2
Tossup
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States208 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-23 02:50:37
November 23 2010 02:49 GMT
#114
Has anyone tried precharging zealots before engagment? I'm pretty sure, but someone confirm this, that chargelots move faster than any unit in the game, including zerglings on creep. You could probably get your zealots in their face before they could respond with FF's. I've tested the range of the entire charge spell and it seems to go about 10-13 range.

chargelot runbys anyone? :D
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4838 Posts
November 23 2010 03:06 GMT
#115
So what's the selling point of Archons? Protoss doesn't have any units that do bonus against Zealots (unless your opponent is using Phoenix or Archons) so the archons aren't particularly special tanks, and their DPS is not compelling for so much gas.

Have you tried Speedlot/Phoenix or Speedlot/Void Ray?
My strategy is to fork people.
sas911
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada113 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-23 04:06:50
November 23 2010 03:41 GMT
#116
Back! So I tried this build on like 5 pvps on my ladder, worked like hell from even the first time. Firstly the chargelots just throws everyone off the pvp thing, everyone saying forcefield shuts it down is more or less just theory crafting... the ramp IS a real pain in the ass to get over, but I basically just camp out at their natural and kill anything that comes out, while i get a saturated expansion and kill you with whatever I want. Dts came out once, it wasn't much of a problem, because i was so ahead economically, I already had robo fac..

I see what the OP said about "not having enough games that actually go that long", because i mean it actually decimates armies amazingly well. FF in normal area is asking for alot of a sentry early game, and charge can really mess you up, forcefields not being as easy as it sounds.

Blink stalkers were interesting. I found that the blink cool-down is just enough so that even if they try to blink up and down your ramp, you can usually take a good swipe or two at them, eventually just killing them. I admit however, I feel that the chargelot is really the huge benefactor, the archon is just a huge cloud of fluffy energy to absorb shots, 'cause they're pretty dam distracting :D

I get that the whole idea is that since you get the twilight, you're already half way there to get hts/dts/archons, but I don't quite know yet if it works. But anyway, I think that I prefer this as a really aggressive opening, kind of like an elongated 2 gate, because it helps A LOT to shut down the other guy's natural, and get your own up safe. Haven't faced any actual dt RUSHES or any starport play though, so I mean I'll keep trying it out and see what happens.
EDIT: Tried to clarify some stuff, bad english mostly.
Re edit:
Well I guess this could be another post, but I think double posting isn't really that great, so I felt like just adding on to this..
Daedalus81 saw the replay, was pretty interesting I guess. But I kind of felt that really, the void rays were kind of more like a distraction that made the other guy kind of fail a little, letting your zealots get a surround as they got charge. Just as a note, you could've actually went and attacked him AGES ago, which I kind of feel is the general concept of this build, because I mean if he wasn't so behind, he could've easily gotten collossus to roast your zealots. Felt the choice to go VRs and delaying archons basically didn't really help, the VRs take too long to come out, I think it's better to get archons where you can utilize proxy pylons and your warp gates. Just saying again, could've attacked earlier, basically right after you held off that attack, if you counter attacked, it would've been practically instant gg, void ray or not.

An interesting thing to note:
One of your zealots got 15 freaking kills. What a hax0r, or just a jerk who's kill stealing all your other zealots, but that was hilarious lol.
VRs died pretty fast, considering his army wasn't much bigger than your zealot count alone, and the max for one of your voids was like 10, while an archon got 15 ish? (Forgetting now).
But I mean, can't forget how useful they are. They can actually probably help you with going up a ramp, what with the range and the fact that they're air helps, because the ff doesn't affect them. The only thing that bothers me then is the fact you need a starport, and you really need to keep using your chronos there to actually have a decent VR count, while archons u can just warp whenever you have the gas to manage.
Will try out VRs too.
Noraa
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada4 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-23 19:12:58
November 23 2010 19:10 GMT
#117
I didn't read every single post, but I still don't quite understand why you would all conclude that FF would stop chargelot completely if a hallucination colossus can still stomp those force fields. Since he is massing mostly zealot early on, he could actually get quite a few sentry to do a early zealot/sentry, utilizing a hallucination colossus to stomp force fields and pushing with charge zealot is a possibility. During all this, expand then transition into a archon stalker style play. Why have we not considered that?
Daedalus81
Profile Joined November 2010
17 Posts
November 23 2010 19:44 GMT
#118
I don't think hallucinations break FF anymore.

Regardless...it doesn't matter if you can't get up his ramp. If you're controlling his natural you can out expand him. Otherwise he'll spend tons of gas to have enough sentries to pace the requisite forcefields to stop you, which means less colossi.
CurLy[]
Profile Joined August 2010
United States759 Posts
November 23 2010 21:57 GMT
#119
just open DT, get your harass then when obs is out make those archons imo ^^

You get full map control + force observers instead of colossus

Great pasta mom, very Korean. Even my crown leans to the side. Gangsta. --------->
sas911
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada113 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-24 22:14:27
November 24 2010 22:11 GMT
#120
K so I played a lot more games, decided that some variations of this build works riduculously well against terran too... The bio ball can't kite chargelots really (they can kite the first charge, but the second one finishes a surround no matter how hard they try), and you go straight to hts with storm and just rape marines hardcore.

Anyway back to pvp. I think I like going standard until about 2 gates, when I get my twilight council (basically similar timing as a robo fac., instead, it's a twilight council), and get my charge. Usually make like 3 stalkers or so, and the terran/protoss won't suspect a thing. Going archons. I don't know if it's really that useful in pvp. I was much more satisfied in getting collossus FASTER by using my economy advantage (sure, I can't go up their ramp, but they know as well as I do they can't expand, or my army will win without a choke)... I mean, again, I understand the fact that you are halfway to ht tech already, but collossus are just so godly in pvp, while storms, feedback, and well short-ranged archons just can't output the same results.

Still, dam dam dam. Amazed at the effectiveness of chargelots. I almost always get chargelots now, unless I'm facing like zerg with TOTAL roach spam or something like that. (Or early banshee, but I mean whenever they try to tech you usually can go up the ramp and eventually break down the wall, if they're spending that money more on tech than army.

Again, ff against chargelots... Really? Unless you have a ridiculous choke point for your natural (like blistering sands, but I mean the back door can make you an easy gg :D), it's almost impossible to use effectively, as the chargelots move so fast using it, and that's basically the moment the zealot's charge is in range (a fair distance, and definitely hard to react if the chargelots are the ones attacking). Now I use this early game just to be aggressive, get an easy expand down while they're stuck on one base, and just macro and win, or if they get desperate and try to push out, show them what chargelots can do in an open area :D

EDIT: As a side note though, against terran, it is actually good if you get a robo and some stalkers after you get a nice amount of hts and zealots, because otherwise you can't take down those blasted tanks, but with vision + stalker range, you can kill those pesky tanks with not too much casualties, letting your zealots run free and rape =3
Dragon2950
Profile Joined May 2010
United States23 Posts
November 25 2010 01:38 GMT
#121
On November 22 2010 02:31 Arch00 wrote:
Once it hits mid-late game and you're blocking his expo or whatever, can't you back off, tech to getting one colossus and just use it to run over all of his forcefields? Yea its like 700 minerals and 500 gas to build one unit just to break forcefields but its worth thinking about. Also opens up use of warp prisms for storm drops if you research that eventually.


Why not just take hallucination and spawn a colossi? They crush ff too...
5ahj4g
Profile Joined August 2010
72 Posts
November 25 2010 01:43 GMT
#122
nope
Wolf
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)3290 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-25 01:58:38
November 25 2010 01:55 GMT
#123
Archons are practically melée units, and with zealots not being able to attack through forcefields at all, there's no way this can end up being viable. Your build is also very vague. It will be incredibly difficult to get a Templar Archive up on one base. Could try to use DTs instead to pressure then archon, but all-in-all, this build will die to early aggression. You won't have enough forcefields to hold off pressure if you're trying to spend gas on all of that tech. Your opponent can just expand if you try to delay things. 

If Archons could walk over forcefields, this would be a different story.

Edit: Hallucinated Collossi CANNOT break forcefields. 
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/proxywolf
TL+ Member
30to1
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
November 25 2010 03:15 GMT
#124

I'm pretty noobish, but I have something like an 85% in PVP because I realized that in terms of upgrades zealots scale up much better than any other protoss T1 unit - and since all toss players seem to go early robo for immortal (which also sucks against zealot) - I just started building mass zealots with dual forge and some sentries to cut down on kiting.

I try to hit +2/+2 at around 8-10 minutes with charge obviously. My +2/+2 timing attack is pretty devastating. After 2 sentries early on, I only spend gas on upgrades. I'd really suggest it. The key is to understand that zealots improve with upgrades faster than any other protoss unit, and are more massable. If I don't want to upgrade rush, then I generally go 1-2 stargate depending. I've been sort of alternating between the two, although I'm starting to lean more towards stargate for phoenix (just because they're so much f'n fun - and it strongly encourages opponent to build more stalkers).

My only pvp loss in last ~10 games was to a 10 worker dual proxy gate that i failed to scout. Given, I am noobish - but reality is that protoss (unlike every other race) does not have a cost effective T1 answer to zealots - especially not upgraded zealots. If he puts down the robo - you should be able to kill him with upgraded zealots - or map control before he can play colossus. Really important to use FF to prevent kiting.

I make no claims on mid-high level diamond. But below that, this will dominate most protoss playing standard pvp metagame (mass stalker, mass sentry, quick colosus, balanced).

I'm not so sure about archons. Based on my experience, stargate or upgrades are a better investment for gas.
sas911
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada113 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-25 04:16:19
November 25 2010 03:30 GMT
#125
Just faced a 4 gate on blistering sands. To help stop this fail theory crafting...
THE START IS THE SAME. They can't scout anything out of normal with their first probe, i chrono out my stalker, kill the scout, then I use that stalker to make sure they aren't doing anything cheesy (after my first probe dies ofc).
Then sentry, then another stalker... this shuts down from then, the really early aggression, unless it's like 6 pool or 2 gate, but you should adapt after your probe scouts that..
And now with 4 gate, I find that you can use your zealots without charge to ramp abuse, the ff will just KILL all stalkers. However one problem I DID face, was when my opponent went 4 gate, I was chronoboosting out my charge, and they were breaking down my BACK door. This actually was a pain to deal with, ramp abuse not half as easy, and he wasn't some sort of noob or anything..
I had no charge when the first stalkers, sentries and zealots came, and I was pretty sure I was screwed. But I held it off sacrificing about 1/4 - 1/3 of my probes to make a worker wall, to try and stop stalkers, and I utilized the high grass thing as best as I could...

What REALLY surprised me, was the DIFFERENCE zealot charge made afterwards. It took a while of microing against the stalkers, he would try to run, and take some shots, and run, while I tried to abuse any ramp I could. But eventually when I got about 10-15 zealots with the charge, trust me when I say GODLY. I was way behind, the other protoss player had a natural already, but once I had the 15 zealots with like 5 sentries, (note that I didn't go for ht techs this game, was way too dependent on the ffs and charges). The natural went down in literally seconds. He had about 8 stalkers and a few zealots, but the charge and ffs can get such a nice surround and etc, it kills no matter how hard they try to micro. Took down his natural, got my natural starting, broke rocks of his back door, went back to natural, killed natural again, at that point he had nothing to defend, and it was just clean up..

So to re-iterate my experience, I find definitely you shouldn't rush crazily for that charge, I think it's a lot better to play standard till 2 gates, then going for twilight instead of robo, and chrono boosting my charge. Literally, if you're not on blistering sands, you'll be more or less fine just using 1 or 2 sentries and just getting ffs down and kill their armies, even against 4 gate. But I mean even on blistering sands, sure it's harder, but once you get that critical mass of zealots (about 10-15), with charge, with sentries, it fights off basically everything...

I feel like some people are exaggerating the difficulty in getting archons.. It's the same with colossus, just a bit faster, with earlier aggression thanks to charge. If someone's 4 gating you, you don't go for fast colossus, you adapt, but in THIS case, you still get your charge, and that large amount of zealots. That way, you still defend, you can do a huge counter attack, and still be getting your ht tech fairly soon.

More people trying and less people theory crafting please?
EDIT: Was wondering what you guys think later game? The chargelots are pretty much gods, and usually DO finish up the game, but I mean it's not going to work every time. Archons seem more suitable for Pvt, as it works with the same concepts, but in this case, it's used to delay time for storm tech.

Oh and for quick banshee, yah this build u'll just have to throw away, I find if my stalker goes up the ramp and I see a quick factory (and I suspect a 1/1/1 build for instance), I just go back to normal play with colossus, or I try to have some fun and get some pheonixes and really pwn some terran ass :D (even though micro + macro can be a bit tough to watch well)

Oh and for all those still too lazy to try out the build, or try to look at some ideas, NO ff does not totally rape this build. That's like saying a terran push can't ever get up a ramp, cuz of sentries. Not true. Similar concept, not only do you have a large army, but the charge lets a good amount of your up the ramp suddenly at once (and who walls in pvp when they think ur going a normal build?)

And the main concept of this is to make sure they're going off 1 base only. You'l have that 15 zealots with archons and a few stalkers, and you're just watching him try to do anything, while you saturate your expo and get whatever you want. He can't ff and win you in an open area, if he gets that many sentries in the first place your zealots aren't going to get dmg'd very much.

Decided to post my replay. Yah I'm a total noob cake, and my multi tasking could definitely have been better, (omfg looking back at my replay I failed with ff placement like a million times.. But on the other hand imagine how epic/easily i WOULD'VE won if you were playing same build, better ffs :D)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108895-1v1-protoss-blistering-sands
(I'm bobsaurus btw)
As a note, I was messing around a bit at the beginning attacking his pylon, so I did slip up a bit macro-wise early game.
If you bother watching (hint hint, watch), you'll see at about the 10 minute mark, I'm finally gotten the charge out, getting a few more zealots.
Watching the game, I admit to being VERY amazed at being able to push back the 4 gate, honestly I had given up hope but kept on playing. You might wonder actually what the replay has to do with this, but it's to show that you can easily change the build a bit, and thus you can fight off 4 gate or other timing pushes (but I seriously must note, it is actually something to think whether or not to use this on blistering sands. Had he tried to only use the legit ramp, I would've fended it off easy as hell.) Also, it shows how cost efficient zealots are. After the first attack and losing a lot of probes because he did a good ff and separated them (making them just easy targets), I had a really awful economy. And yet I kept trading armies off (though perserving sentries), only losing my zealots, but I still maintained, and eventually over took his army size.

And I hope you do get a general sense of what I mean by "you might not be able to go up his ramp, but you sure as hell can expand while killing theirs". :D
30to1
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-25 04:24:55
November 25 2010 03:51 GMT
#126
I really think that going starport or upgrades is a better path vs a robo build.

Archons are really a counter to zealots. If he has robo, he'll have obs so you probably won't get much milage out of DT and at less than cost void rays have more utility than archons (and come faster) - additionally, it encourages him to build more stalker - which you can easily kill.

If he goes for four gate, then archon makes more sense since he'll switch to mostly zealot. But honestly, upgrades make a huge difference here - and if you dual forge you'll certainly be way ahead of him.

FF is mostly for preventing kiting like the post above or punishing retreats.

EDIT: Included a replay - not going to claim perfect play by any means. I lose a skirmish at around 11 minutes - most people will probably think its because of FF - its actually because half my army is in the red and I didn't realize it so was reinforcing with sentries instead of additional zealots.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108899-1v1-protoss-lost-temple

Artisian
Profile Joined October 2010
United States115 Posts
November 25 2010 04:43 GMT
#127
Apologies to the above, this will be theory crafting.

I see a ton of people mentioning 2 or 3 points then saying this is not viable, I think there is just a bit of ignorance in these posts.

The first claim i see is that archons would get kited, either by stalkers or colossi. I suppose these claims are made in ignorance of it's speed, it's only slightly slower than a stalker and significantly faster than a colossi. Just to provide the numbers (courtesy of liquipedia):
Zeal/Collo: 2.25
Archon: 2.81
Stalker: 2.95

For a stalker ball to effectively "kite" an archon/chargelot army they would have to walk something near the length of a LT main, and in that time the archon would've probably fully recovered from the attack and then some. The colossi cliffwalking is a fair argument, but then the colossi player must be moving it away from the battle preemptively, or the archon would get a few hits off easily. Also note that a running colossi is not an attacking colossi.

Second claim, it's too expensive for any kind of early play/inferior timing fast collo. I like numbers, so let's look at the absolute minimum resources on tech/units to get 1 of either.

Archon: 550 min/ 600 gas, 277 in game seconds
Colossi: 900 min/ 700 gas, 390 in game seconds

Archons will come out at a minimum of 2 minutes earlier IF the colossi player has a good 3-400 mineral lead and an extra 100 gas somehow laying around. Which, in a mirror, means the archon player had already lost. Another interesting number is how fast each can be produced, a new archon can be made, if resources are available, every 57 seconds, a new colossi can be made every 75 seconds. Both of these numbers assume near equal production structures (2 gates 300/0 to 1 robo 200/100). A fast archon is just as doable, if not more so, than a fast colo.

The third claim is decently accurate, force field wins. There is no visible answer to it in the build, but then every build without a colossi is in the same position. The best counter argument would probably be that if the other toss has sentries, that's all the more gas he's behind in getting those dreaded colossi. Granted, the answer is simply to not fight at a choke and contain instead, but then this can't win the game for you.

While reading this thread, I did come up with a possible solution to the force field problem. You obviously can't really afford to risk your (to be) archon and a few zeals trying to feedback a sentry, they'd just warp a new one before you had the archon made IF you actually managed to not loose the HT's in your attempt. But what about a single, or maybe 2, phoenix? one well timed graviton beam would allow you a safe attack, similar to how you would graviton a seiged up tank then run in with zeals. Once you're in their base, the ff becomes much less frightening, and getting 2 phoenix while containing shouldn't be too hard.
Supply is a conspiracy against me...
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
November 25 2010 04:52 GMT
#128
ive actually been experimenting with gettin a bunch of zealots and archons, and just using em to defend my natural and not pushing out. (though i do scout if they expanded, if so i attack to do lots of damage). then when they come to attack me, i make sure to have 2 or 3 temps with a lot of energy to do like 6 feedbacks which will oblierate all his sentrys, allowing ur zlot/archons to shred thru the rest.
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
GoldenH
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1115 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-25 05:00:12
November 25 2010 04:56 GMT
#129
wrong thread
"(Dudes are) not going to say "Buy this game — I cried at the end". (...) I suppose the secret is to find a game that makes you shoot eight million fuckin' dudes and then cry about how awesome it is to shoot eight million fuckin' dudes." - Tim Rogers
30to1
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
November 25 2010 04:56 GMT
#130
Sorry for the post spam.

But I want to re-emphasize. I imagine that archons are in the build to deal with opponent zealots. This is really the only place in this fight where they shine.

The core idea here, really, is zealots with charge. The reason being that the protoss meta currently favors stalkers into colossus by huge margin. So most protoss you see will rush robo. You punish them with zealots, forcing them to build zealots (at a loss), then counter that with archon.

I think that a more robust strategy is something of the following:

Open 2 gate dual forge / 3 gate + forge / 3 gate + twilight (i don't think rushing twilight is worth it over forges personally) - you want upgrades on your zealots more than even warpgates.

Beat on your opponent with zealots using FF to punish retreating/kiting.

If opponent is going robo
-> if you did damage early game, more upgrades to finish him off as +2/+2 hits.
-> if you didn't do much damage, go air - phoenix and or voidray depending on taste and APM.
- this forces him to build more stalkers, which your chargelots can maul.
If opponent is going 4 gate
-> go archon to counter the zealots he will certainly make.

Be flexible. Different units have their place. The heart of this is really that protoss has no answer to T1/T2 answer to zealots - but the protoss metagame currently completely neglects them. So surprise your opponent and brutalize them with it, while transitioning into whatever answer they're most likely to respond with.

Zvendetta
Profile Joined July 2010
United States321 Posts
November 25 2010 05:03 GMT
#131
I really like the build, minus the fact that you named it after yourself and said it would "change pvp forever." Its just a little annoying to see a tadbit of stubbornness thinking you'll completely change the meta overnight, it gets in the way of the actual good strategy.

I'd like to see replays of you LOSING vs specific timings- if I remember correctly TL strat guidelines say something along the lines of "If you try a new build order and win 6 games in a row on ladder, it DOES NOT mean it instantly is amazing."

And as far as the build order refinement- I think the inclusion of upgrades is very essential. In your "extensive unit testing", did you find out what upgrade thresholds needed to be reached? Specifically, I'm thinking about shield upgrades for archon- are they actually beneficial? Or is +1wep/+1 armor too good to pass up? (+1armored lots are amazingly tough)
Also, perhaps when you take your third (possibly fourth), you could consider adding VR's to the comp- it would help nullify the supposed "6+ colo count" which lot archon loses out too.
"Its as if I can see the gears of the Eternal Alchemy spinning before, and I can almost reach out and turn them with my hands."
Piledriver
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1697 Posts
November 25 2010 05:20 GMT
#132
On November 25 2010 13:56 30to1 wrote:
Sorry for the post spam.

But I want to re-emphasize. I imagine that archons are in the build to deal with opponent zealots. This is really the only place in this fight where they shine.

The core idea here, really, is zealots with charge. The reason being that the protoss meta currently favors stalkers into colossus by huge margin. So most protoss you see will rush robo. You punish them with zealots, forcing them to build zealots (at a loss), then counter that with archon.

I think that a more robust strategy is something of the following:

Open 2 gate dual forge / 3 gate + forge / 3 gate + twilight (i don't think rushing twilight is worth it over forges personally) - you want upgrades on your zealots more than even warpgates.

Beat on your opponent with zealots using FF to punish retreating/kiting.

If opponent is going robo
-> if you did damage early game, more upgrades to finish him off as +2/+2 hits.
-> if you didn't do much damage, go air - phoenix and or voidray depending on taste and APM.
- this forces him to build more stalkers, which your chargelots can maul.
If opponent is going 4 gate
-> go archon to counter the zealots he will certainly make.

Be flexible. Different units have their place. The heart of this is really that protoss has no answer to T1/T2 answer to zealots - but the protoss metagame currently completely neglects them. So surprise your opponent and brutalize them with it, while transitioning into whatever answer they're most likely to respond with.




Are you guys playing a different version of starcraft where sentries dont exist? My experience with zealots is that stalkers kite them to death before charge hits, and even after charge is completed, mixing in a few zealots + sentries causes the chargelots to get totally zoned and owned. Any competent player will change his army composition and add sentries when he sees a mass of melee units. IMHO the worst part is if you keep spamming zealots, he will just get a bunch of sentries, save up minerals to expand and you cant do shit because zealots just get blocked by force fields and sit around looking stupid. All your posts seem so much like theory craft.
Envy fan since NTH.
Roaming
Profile Joined May 2010
United States239 Posts
November 25 2010 05:25 GMT
#133
"I apologize for the lack of a real build order. I have not hammered out the exact timings of a build order yet, and I usually just wing it."

Um. Just. Wow.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
elkram
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States221 Posts
November 25 2010 05:33 GMT
#134
I'd like to speak from experience. Everyone here has pretty much got this down already, the key to this build is not the archons, but the charge lots. W/o chargelots your archons get surrounded or put at the front lines of the main battle and don't get to dole out damage like they were meant to. It's similar to why you get zealots in collossi builds, the collossi are meant to sway the tide of the lot vs. lot battle and then if your lots when they can do damage to everything else. The reason why charge isn't necessary in that instance is because 1: Collossi have 6/9 range (depending on upgrade) and 2) Collossi can walk over ground armies and up and over cliffs so they aren't really in much danger to melee units. However in an Archon/Zealot mix, you don't have the luxury of having a unit who 1) has the same range, or 2) has the same cliff-walking abilities. So, in essence, getting the charge lots compensates for reasons 1) and 2) and allows your zealots to be successful later on.

I assume this isn't news to anyone, but I always feel stating the obvious and giving reasons makes everything more memorable than, "I have to do it because that is what the BO tells me to."
Tiger Tiger. burning bright, In the forests of the night; What immortal hand or eye. Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
30to1
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
November 25 2010 05:56 GMT
#135
On November 25 2010 14:20 Piledriver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2010 13:56 30to1 wrote:
Sorry for the post spam.

But I want to re-emphasize. I imagine that archons are in the build to deal with opponent zealots. This is really the only place in this fight where they shine.

The core idea here, really, is zealots with charge. The reason being that the protoss meta currently favors stalkers into colossus by huge margin. So most protoss you see will rush robo. You punish them with zealots, forcing them to build zealots (at a loss), then counter that with archon.

I think that a more robust strategy is something of the following:

Open 2 gate dual forge / 3 gate + forge / 3 gate + twilight (i don't think rushing twilight is worth it over forges personally) - you want upgrades on your zealots more than even warpgates.

Beat on your opponent with zealots using FF to punish retreating/kiting.

If opponent is going robo
-> if you did damage early game, more upgrades to finish him off as +2/+2 hits.
-> if you didn't do much damage, go air - phoenix and or voidray depending on taste and APM.
- this forces him to build more stalkers, which your chargelots can maul.
If opponent is going 4 gate
-> go archon to counter the zealots he will certainly make.

Be flexible. Different units have their place. The heart of this is really that protoss has no answer to T1/T2 answer to zealots - but the protoss metagame currently completely neglects them. So surprise your opponent and brutalize them with it, while transitioning into whatever answer they're most likely to respond with.




Are you guys playing a different version of starcraft where sentries dont exist? My experience with zealots is that stalkers kite them to death before charge hits, and even after charge is completed, mixing in a few zealots + sentries causes the chargelots to get totally zoned and owned. Any competent player will change his army composition and add sentries when he sees a mass of melee units. IMHO the worst part is if you keep spamming zealots, he will just get a bunch of sentries, save up minerals to expand and you cant do shit because zealots just get blocked by force fields and sit around looking stupid. All your posts seem so much like theory craft.


I included a replay, I can include some more. I've been sort of refining this fast ups style. Heavy zealot builds just keep winning me pvp games - because they're so fucking cost effective vs stalkers and sentries.

Again, if he's trying to kite you, use FF to kill stragglers or make him entirely stop running.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108899-1v1-protoss-lost-temple

Zealot heavy builds work because of the absurd cost effectiveness of zealots vs other protoss tier 1 and immortals.

FF isn't your enemy, its your friend. The mot effective use of FF (outside of on a ramp) - is to punish someone for running. A zeal force is not the one running, since it dominates anything opponent builds on the ground until colossus. Because of this, I generally get better use out of FF than opponent.
aghull
Profile Joined November 2010
46 Posts
November 25 2010 06:15 GMT
#136
I gave this a try tonite and every single time I did I got raped by DTs. I liked how my army felt up until that point each time, but it felt too awkward to try and shoehorn in detection to the build. Maybe I'll practice the forge timing and give it a try later.
BBC.807
Profile Joined November 2010
Norway68 Posts
November 25 2010 21:18 GMT
#137
I encountered the SpeedZealArchon build in a PVP game (these TL.net threads tend to have that kind of impact on b.net). Here is the replay that i saved, we're both diamond 1800 players:

1v1 - Protoss SpeedZealArchon


Normally i do a 3gate build, but iv'e been so bored with PVP lately (even tried carriers for a brief period), so i decided i would go with a 2-gate to mix it up - now i prefer the 3-gate option even more.

As stated a couple of times:
- Effective use of FF and Colossi is the key.
- Proper use of observer enabled me to pick the spot of the battle.

This was the first time i encountered it, i would probably be able to respond even better now having faced it already.
Spek
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada37 Posts
November 25 2010 21:28 GMT
#138
Just a heads up. I still plan on re-writing my original post. Yes, I know it sucks. I haven't updated yet because I just got a new job, and I haven't even been playing starcraft.

I learned a lot from the comments. Thanks to those people who actually put effort into making an intelligent post, with real criticism, not the same old garbage.

I plan on not only writing about zealot/archon, but the many possible variations of zealot builds, because we all know the heart of this strategy is the charging warrior that the zealot is. I haven't yet tried upgrades instead of archons, but I think it'll work great. I'm a little worried about having too much gas, and not enough minerals for the zealots though. Perhaps upgrades first, then archons? Or even a few stalkers or sentries. So many options.

I'm having mixed feelings about the counter being blink stalkers. I got raped by blink stalkers, but so many people here say blink stalkers don't work so well. Maybe the reason I got raped is because I played a person who was a lot better than I am. Again, more testing is needed.

PM me your replays, suggestions, and build orders please.
If you don't play random, that makes you a racist.
Torture
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada221 Posts
November 26 2010 01:24 GMT
#139
On November 25 2010 13:56 30to1 wrote:
Sorry for the post spam.

But I want to re-emphasize. I imagine that archons are in the build to deal with opponent zealots. This is really the only place in this fight where they shine.

The core idea here, really, is zealots with charge. The reason being that the protoss meta currently favors stalkers into colossus by huge margin. So most protoss you see will rush robo. You punish them with zealots, forcing them to build zealots (at a loss), then counter that with archon.

I think that a more robust strategy is something of the following:

Open 2 gate dual forge / 3 gate + forge / 3 gate + twilight (i don't think rushing twilight is worth it over forges personally) - you want upgrades on your zealots more than even warpgates.

Beat on your opponent with zealots using FF to punish retreating/kiting.

Be flexible. Different units have their place. The heart of this is really that protoss has no answer to T1/T2 answer to zealots - but the protoss metagame currently completely neglects them. So surprise your opponent and brutalize them with it, while transitioning into whatever answer they're most likely to respond with.




THIS! Archon doesn't seem like it really matters, he's just winning because Zealots with charge own Stalkers and every Protoss gets 293847298347892347 Stalkers.

Might as well throw down your Twilight Council for Charge and then get some Void Rays or Phoenix's to force some more Stalkers that will fall to Zealots.
Danze
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia219 Posts
November 26 2010 01:33 GMT
#140
Like everyone else has said:

FF>This strat. Enjoy running at semi transparent walls while 5 Collossi faceroll your units.
Accidentally pissing on toilet rolls since 1991.
hellsan631
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States695 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-26 01:56:12
November 26 2010 01:50 GMT
#141
this isnt an original strategy. here: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/1024

i posted this type of strat 4 months ago. Nothing really has changed, and it wasn't anything worthy back then. Blink stalkers own this strategy pretty hard core.
Informat
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada45 Posts
November 26 2010 02:10 GMT
#142
Hmmm...
I agree force field would demolish this composition on any map regardless of how much open space.

Personally i'd rather invest in blink stalkers and attack before the toss achieves the 4 colossi count. Archons are strong against bionic units and the only bionic unit for protoss is the zealot. Also, colossi would kill faster than archons any day with splash. Not to mention the colossi could always climb cliffs and roast archons without FF.

It's even easier for the toss player to switch back to a tier 1 Stalker/Sentry composition instead of continuing to produce colossi. Blink stalkers can abuse the short range even more so than colossi. Imagine trying to catch up to a party of blink stalkers in your mineral line with only melee units.

This strategy is flawed, too many holes where the other player can abuse. I don't mean any offense but i can only see this successful against low divisions where players make plenty of macro/micro mistakes.
Daedalus81
Profile Joined November 2010
17 Posts
November 26 2010 02:45 GMT
#143
Here are a couple more from me...

The second one I faced 5 or 6 colossi late game with a lot of FFs.

[image loading]

[image loading]
Daedalus81
Profile Joined November 2010
17 Posts
November 26 2010 02:47 GMT
#144
On November 26 2010 11:10 Informat wrote:
Personally i'd rather invest in blink stalkers and attack before the toss achieves the 4 colossi count. Archons are strong against bionic units and the only bionic unit for protoss is the zealot. Also, colossi would kill faster than archons any day with splash. Not to mention the colossi could always climb cliffs and roast archons without FF.



The Colossi splash relies on unit size. The Archon bucks that quite a bit.
Informat
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada45 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-26 02:55:28
November 26 2010 02:54 GMT
#145
On November 26 2010 11:47 Daedalus81 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2010 11:10 Informat wrote:
Personally i'd rather invest in blink stalkers and attack before the toss achieves the 4 colossi count. Archons are strong against bionic units and the only bionic unit for protoss is the zealot. Also, colossi would kill faster than archons any day with splash. Not to mention the colossi could always climb cliffs and roast archons without FF.



The Colossi splash relies on unit size. The Archon bucks that quite a bit.


I understand that archons do tend to take up a lot of room, but because of it's heavy gas cost; you'll practically have 6 zealots per archon. If there's no zealots, then what's a couple of archons going to do? It's pretty much certain you'll be hitting atleast 5 zealots every attack along with an archon or two. Zealots are the core of the army, archons are just support.
bjornkavist
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada1235 Posts
November 26 2010 03:14 GMT
#146
I have not watched the replays yet, and I'm sure you put a lot of effort into this but I'm afraid it can't work too consistently. like you mentioned Dts (my fave unit in PvP) can easily counter it if they dont see it coming. And I have tried an Archon Zealot build in a tournament once where I was absolutely demolished in PvP, in your defense though I did not refine this build much. But the best way for this build to work is for them to rely on not microing their collosi which in my opinion is not a recipe for a good build.
https://soundcloud.com/bbols
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-26 03:36:41
November 26 2010 03:18 GMT
#147
man i reckon we could call it the respek build

this build should incorporate a hallucination scout
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
OmniscientSC2
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States713 Posts
November 26 2010 03:26 GMT
#148
I tried this build 10 times in a row 2 weeks ago. Thought I was a genius until my opponent used force fields. Works extremely well against early zealots though!
"Did you know about Day and the Wicker Basket?" - Harem "Hi, I'm from Texas." -TLO
Arch00
Profile Joined July 2010
United States233 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-26 03:35:32
November 26 2010 03:31 GMT
#149
On November 26 2010 06:18 BBC.807 wrote:
I encountered the SpeedZealArchon build in a PVP game (these TL.net threads tend to have that kind of impact on b.net). Here is the replay that i saved, we're both diamond 1800 players:

1v1 - Protoss SpeedZealArchon


Normally i do a 3gate build, but iv'e been so bored with PVP lately (even tried carriers for a brief period), so i decided i would go with a 2-gate to mix it up - now i prefer the 3-gate option even more.

As stated a couple of times:
- Effective use of FF and Colossi is the key.
- Proper use of observer enabled me to pick the spot of the battle.

This was the first time i encountered it, i would probably be able to respond even better now having faced it already.


What your opponent did was much more a speedlot rush and not really the Archon build mentioned in this thread. He was supply capped at 50 for almost 3-4 minutes straight and almost always had full energy on his nexus. He could have executed things much more crisply but didn't for some reason. He was also floating 700 minerals and not chronoing his gateways to pump out his zealot count D; and to make things worse he expanded much earlier but his probe count was barely half yours.. this guy is 1800 haha? Yay bonus pts!
www.twitch.tv/arch00 ~ Arch.391 SC2
Daedalus81
Profile Joined November 2010
17 Posts
November 26 2010 03:42 GMT
#150
On November 26 2010 12:14 bjornkavist wrote:
I have not watched the replays yet, and I'm sure you put a lot of effort into this but I'm afraid it can't work too consistently. like you mentioned Dts (my fave unit in PvP) can easily counter it if they dont see it coming. And I have tried an Archon Zealot build in a tournament once where I was absolutely demolished in PvP, in your defense though I did not refine this build much. But the best way for this build to work is for them to rely on not microing their collosi which in my opinion is not a recipe for a good build.



First replay my opponent got late DTs. I can get an earlier forge for upgrades and one cannon. For the 1 in 20 games I face DTs its a non-issue.
Niji87
Profile Joined September 2008
United States112 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-26 04:26:06
November 26 2010 04:12 GMT
#151
I don't think Forcefield would demolish this strat. Simply don't fuse a few of your High Templar. Use Feedback. It's not just for Ghosts/Medivacs. It even has 9 range. Considering the cost of the Templar is only 50 more gas than a Sentry you can totally rock some sentries up THEN fuse into Archons at the bottom of their ramp that they conveniently walled off for you to safely fuse behind.

I think your biggest worries will come from Stalkers and Air units, though. I can't see Archon/Zealot beating up Stalkers very easily. I think getting Storm early while expanding is your best bet for moving into a safer late-midgame and lategame.



EDIT: Actually, considering the cost of the HT being only 50 more gas than a Sentry and their ability to instantly nuke a Sentry with Feedback and then merge into an Archon, I'd say HT vs Sentry is very much in the favor of the HT.
I am not very good at playing StarCraft.
kaisr
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada715 Posts
November 26 2010 04:23 GMT
#152
On November 26 2010 11:45 Daedalus81 wrote:
Here are a couple more from me...

The second one I faced 5 or 6 colossi late game with a lot of FFs.

[image loading]

[image loading]


ugh was watching second replay and stopped when both of you got forges and cannoned your mains...
30to1
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
November 26 2010 05:34 GMT
#153
On November 26 2010 06:18 BBC.807 wrote:
I encountered the SpeedZealArchon build in a PVP game (these TL.net threads tend to have that kind of impact on b.net). Here is the replay that i saved, we're both diamond 1800 players:

1v1 - Protoss SpeedZealArchon


Normally i do a 3gate build, but iv'e been so bored with PVP lately (even tried carriers for a brief period), so i decided i would go with a 2-gate to mix it up - now i prefer the 3-gate option even more.

As stated a couple of times:
- Effective use of FF and Colossi is the key.
- Proper use of observer enabled me to pick the spot of the battle.

This was the first time i encountered it, i would probably be able to respond even better now having faced it already.


I didn't watch the whole thing. Personally I think he would have rolled you if he had built a forward pylon to reinforce at 8 minutes.

Honestly, I didn't really like his style - he has a force that dominates you but he didn't contain you to base, the push was fine - but again - he had around 8 zealots sitting in his base when you finally repelled his push --- those 8 zeals should have been in your base. Maybe colossi are the key - but frankly - playing that build more correctly, he should have killed you at around 9 minutes.

Not putting up a forward pylon for reinforcement or taking advantage of his early map control was really wasteful.
30to1
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
November 26 2010 06:27 GMT
#154
On November 26 2010 12:42 Daedalus81 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2010 12:14 bjornkavist wrote:
I have not watched the replays yet, and I'm sure you put a lot of effort into this but I'm afraid it can't work too consistently. like you mentioned Dts (my fave unit in PvP) can easily counter it if they dont see it coming. And I have tried an Archon Zealot build in a tournament once where I was absolutely demolished in PvP, in your defense though I did not refine this build much. But the best way for this build to work is for them to rely on not microing their collosi which in my opinion is not a recipe for a good build.



First replay my opponent got late DTs. I can get an earlier forge for upgrades and one cannon. For the 1 in 20 games I face DTs its a non-issue.


BTW - I've watched a variety of your replays and like your style. That said, I think that there are some improvements you can make in this matchup.

1 - you have full map control. take advantage of that, and keep him feeling under pressure.
2 - deny him any expansion what so ever - set patrol points with probes for ninja expansions.
3 - never move out without forward pylons or a warp prism. its just dumb to neglect the advantage warp gates give you.

people keep claiming the best answer to this build is stalker/sentry -- they're wrong. they're just so dependent on using the same build over and over that they can't really think out of the box. "if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail" right? so - if all you know is stalker / sentry / colossus then FF + colossus is your answer to everything.

My prediction is that zealots will become the core unit in pvp matchups over the next few months - same as marine / tank has regained the core spot in terran play. And I think the fertile ground for toss strategy revolves around its neglected air.

Phoenix are amazing units - they just cause you to slip on macro if you have low apm. but they're incredible units. Void ray also is really neglected aside from use as a shitty banshee proxy for cheese play - the void ray is not a cheese unit - its powerful air support - and is really great if used that way.


numpkin
Profile Joined June 2010
39 Posts
November 26 2010 07:05 GMT
#155
Why get templar archive? why not a dark shrine instead?

DTs allows you to apply early pressure and force a fast robo play, so you are much safer from a 4 gate rush, plus DTs cost less gas than HTs, so when your opponent do get sufficient detection, your archon army should be bigger than you would have if you went HTs.
Artisian
Profile Joined October 2010
United States115 Posts
November 26 2010 15:30 GMT
#156
On November 26 2010 16:05 numpkin wrote:
Why get templar archive? why not a dark shrine instead?

DTs allows you to apply early pressure and force a fast robo play, so you are much safer from a 4 gate rush, plus DTs cost less gas than HTs, so when your opponent do get sufficient detection, your archon army should be bigger than you would have if you went HTs.


The biggest downside to going DT's over HT's is the build time and gas of their tech. The shrine costs more, and takes longer, effectively delaying the archons for a good minute or more. While they are better immediately after the tech is finished, if the goal is an archon you are much better off going the ht route. Also of interest, Gas is usually what you have laying around after the archives finish, and that's practically all you need for HT's, while the dt shrine cuts back on your zealot production ever so slightly, and less of your actual dps unit is never really a good thing.
Supply is a conspiracy against me...
bobcat
Profile Joined May 2010
United States488 Posts
November 26 2010 16:00 GMT
#157
I fail to see how 1 archon 2 stalkers and 20 zealots will survive against 14 zealots 4 sentries and 2 colossi.
"I just want to see bobcat wrist deep in someone's mother's anus" 165 votes
bobcat
Profile Joined May 2010
United States488 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-26 16:06:44
November 26 2010 16:02 GMT
#158
On November 26 2010 11:47 Daedalus81 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2010 11:10 Informat wrote:
Personally i'd rather invest in blink stalkers and attack before the toss achieves the 4 colossi count. Archons are strong against bionic units and the only bionic unit for protoss is the zealot. Also, colossi would kill faster than archons any day with splash. Not to mention the colossi could always climb cliffs and roast archons without FF.



The Colossi splash relies on unit size. The Archon bucks that quite a bit.



....Unless you are a good protoss and micro your colossi.

On November 26 2010 15:27 30to1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2010 12:42 Daedalus81 wrote:
On November 26 2010 12:14 bjornkavist wrote:
I have not watched the replays yet, and I'm sure you put a lot of effort into this but I'm afraid it can't work too consistently. like you mentioned Dts (my fave unit in PvP) can easily counter it if they dont see it coming. And I have tried an Archon Zealot build in a tournament once where I was absolutely demolished in PvP, in your defense though I did not refine this build much. But the best way for this build to work is for them to rely on not microing their collosi which in my opinion is not a recipe for a good build.



First replay my opponent got late DTs. I can get an earlier forge for upgrades and one cannon. For the 1 in 20 games I face DTs its a non-issue.


BTW - I've watched a variety of your replays and like your style. That said, I think that there are some improvements you can make in this matchup.

1 - you have full map control. take advantage of that, and keep him feeling under pressure.
2 - deny him any expansion what so ever - set patrol points with probes for ninja expansions.
3 - never move out without forward pylons or a warp prism. its just dumb to neglect the advantage warp gates give you.

people keep claiming the best answer to this build is stalker/sentry -- they're wrong. they're just so dependent on using the same build over and over that they can't really think out of the box. "if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail" right? so - if all you know is stalker / sentry / colossus then FF + colossus is your answer to everything.

My prediction is that zealots will become the core unit in pvp matchups over the next few months - same as marine / tank has regained the core spot in terran play. And I think the fertile ground for toss strategy revolves around its neglected air.

Phoenix are amazing units - they just cause you to slip on macro if you have low apm. but they're incredible units. Void ray also is really neglected aside from use as a shitty banshee proxy for cheese play - the void ray is not a cheese unit - its powerful air support - and is really great if used that way.




Zealots are already a core unit in PvP matchups.

As for hammers and nails. People's logic is not flawed. Colossus/sentry/zealot is a great tool to use against and army THAT HAS NO RANGED CAPABILITIES. When all I see are nails, I can't help but use my hammer.
"I just want to see bobcat wrist deep in someone's mother's anus" 165 votes
Daedalus81
Profile Joined November 2010
17 Posts
November 26 2010 19:07 GMT
#159


ugh was watching second replay and stopped when both of you got forges and cannoned your mains...


Wow. I got 2 cannons and he got 1. Cannons do quite well for cost and they had n real bearing on the overall strategy of the game. Maybe you should have a bit more of an open mind?
Daedalus81
Profile Joined November 2010
17 Posts
November 26 2010 19:09 GMT
#160


BTW - I've watched a variety of your replays and like your style. That said, I think that there are some improvements you can make in this matchup.

1 - you have full map control. take advantage of that, and keep him feeling under pressure.
2 - deny him any expansion what so ever - set patrol points with probes for ninja expansions.
3 - never move out without forward pylons or a warp prism. its just dumb to neglect the advantage warp gates give you.




Thanks - I appreciate the feedback. I'm still trying to improve my play so it helps a lot to hear those things.


Daedalus81
Profile Joined November 2010
17 Posts
November 26 2010 19:24 GMT
#161
On November 27 2010 01:00 bobcat wrote:
I fail to see how 1 archon 2 stalkers and 20 zealots will survive against 14 zealots 4 sentries and 2 colossi.


It takes 205 seconds for the first Colossi and an extra 65 seconds for range at a cost of 900/700.

The first Archon is out at 117 seconds - assuming you have warp gates available. Sometimes I need to wait for gas so 150 seconds isn't unreasonable. That is at a cost of 400/600. Aside from that it gives the added benefit of allowing you to grab leg speed.

You can get map control 55 seconds before any Colossus hits the field and 2 minutes before range.

My gas expenditure at first push is 900. I don't get a second gas terribly early so if my opponent has 1100 (just throwing out numbers) then he can get : 3 sentries, 2 stalkers, and a colossi building with range...
30to1
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
November 26 2010 20:25 GMT
#162
On November 27 2010 01:02 bobcat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 26 2010 11:47 Daedalus81 wrote:
On November 26 2010 11:10 Informat wrote:
Personally i'd rather invest in blink stalkers and attack before the toss achieves the 4 colossi count. Archons are strong against bionic units and the only bionic unit for protoss is the zealot. Also, colossi would kill faster than archons any day with splash. Not to mention the colossi could always climb cliffs and roast archons without FF.



The Colossi splash relies on unit size. The Archon bucks that quite a bit.



....Unless you are a good protoss and micro your colossi.

Show nested quote +
On November 26 2010 15:27 30to1 wrote:
On November 26 2010 12:42 Daedalus81 wrote:
On November 26 2010 12:14 bjornkavist wrote:
I have not watched the replays yet, and I'm sure you put a lot of effort into this but I'm afraid it can't work too consistently. like you mentioned Dts (my fave unit in PvP) can easily counter it if they dont see it coming. And I have tried an Archon Zealot build in a tournament once where I was absolutely demolished in PvP, in your defense though I did not refine this build much. But the best way for this build to work is for them to rely on not microing their collosi which in my opinion is not a recipe for a good build.



First replay my opponent got late DTs. I can get an earlier forge for upgrades and one cannon. For the 1 in 20 games I face DTs its a non-issue.


BTW - I've watched a variety of your replays and like your style. That said, I think that there are some improvements you can make in this matchup.

1 - you have full map control. take advantage of that, and keep him feeling under pressure.
2 - deny him any expansion what so ever - set patrol points with probes for ninja expansions.
3 - never move out without forward pylons or a warp prism. its just dumb to neglect the advantage warp gates give you.

people keep claiming the best answer to this build is stalker/sentry -- they're wrong. they're just so dependent on using the same build over and over that they can't really think out of the box. "if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail" right? so - if all you know is stalker / sentry / colossus then FF + colossus is your answer to everything.

My prediction is that zealots will become the core unit in pvp matchups over the next few months - same as marine / tank has regained the core spot in terran play. And I think the fertile ground for toss strategy revolves around its neglected air.

Phoenix are amazing units - they just cause you to slip on macro if you have low apm. but they're incredible units. Void ray also is really neglected aside from use as a shitty banshee proxy for cheese play - the void ray is not a cheese unit - its powerful air support - and is really great if used that way.




Zealots are already a core unit in PvP matchups.

As for hammers and nails. People's logic is not flawed. Colossus/sentry/zealot is a great tool to use against and army THAT HAS NO RANGED CAPABILITIES. When all I see are nails, I can't help but use my hammer.


Hahaha, great post. But from my experience, zealots are absolutely not the core unit in PVP - they're generally treated as a support unit for colossus (which is the core unit in pvp).

I've put up around 4 posts so far asserting that vs a fast colossus build - going starport instead of archon is probably superior to archon (archon being better vs 4 gates or more t1 centric play). A 80% zealot build supported by phoenix/void will beat the force you suggest (zealot/sentry/colo). You need stalkers to deal with air and the more stalkers you make - the weaker you are to zealot.

My modification of the zeal/archon build (again) is as follows:

Open with 2 gate / 2 forge (zealots scale upgrades better than any other protoss unit) 3 gate 1 forge or 3 gate twilight depending on taste.

If enemy playing robo:
- if you do damage early, go for +2/+2 fast to finish him off ~10 minutes.
- if not a lot of early damage, go starport for phoenix or void depending on taste/apm.

if enemy going 4 gate:
- go for archive or dark shrine depending on taste and play archons to counter the zealot heavy response you're likely to see.

I think that 2-3 early sentries are key - since you need maxed energy to end kiting. After that most of your gas should either go into upgrades, air or archons depending on how your opponent plays or how the match is unfolding.



Rolf
Profile Joined October 2010
Norway2 Posts
November 27 2010 02:02 GMT
#163
Could this be a viable build against zerg?
Daedalus81
Profile Joined November 2010
17 Posts
November 27 2010 02:06 GMT
#164
On November 27 2010 11:02 Rolf wrote:
Could this be a viable build against zerg?


Yes and no. I still do chargelot / void into archon and then grab immortals if they go roach heavy. As long as you can apply pressure and not make yourself weak to 7RR it could be fine.
sas911
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada113 Posts
November 27 2010 16:34 GMT
#165
Against zerg it works fairly well. But I mean if they're going roach push, or just mass roach in general, you shouldn't be getting mass zealots, because I mean if roaches didn't kill zealots, zerg would lose every time to this build... (because archons vs mutalisks = faceroll PWNAGE)
30to1
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
November 27 2010 16:49 GMT
#166
Yeah, thb, I've been working on a surprisingly similar build vs terran thats actually working pretty well. Vs terran i do rush charge instead of ups, but still throw down stargate early for void/phoenix.

Mixed results (mostly due to weakness vs cloaked banshee) still but I think there is a lot of promise there and pvt is my worst match.

I think the reality is that PvX a strong zealot presence supported by 2 sentries and 2 voids at ~8 minutes is just a really potent composition - highly underrated. In PvT I generally rush storm after, naturally. Nice thing is that it works pretty well against mech also (thor rush, etc) - the massive problem is lack of detection for cloaked banshee.

Niguana
Profile Joined November 2010
United States36 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-27 16:55:12
November 27 2010 16:54 GMT
#167
On November 27 2010 11:06 Daedalus81 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 27 2010 11:02 Rolf wrote:
Could this be a viable build against zerg?


Yes and no. I still do chargelot / void into archon and then grab immortals if they go roach heavy. As long as you can apply pressure and not make yourself weak to 7RR it could be fine.


Charge/Void? I'm assuming you're going dual Stargate? What if they go Muta, just go Pheonix/Void?

I'm currently making the switch from Zerg/Terran into Protoss. Never played Protoss at all, ever. I tried this strategy, I barely won but I won nonetheless. Going to try and refine it as much as possible.

Question though, do I lead with my Archons or my Zealots? Archons are such monster tanks, I remember playing a game where two of my Archons got forcefielded up a ramp and took on something like 8 stalkers, 2 zealots and a sentry for about 15-20 seconds before my army came up and they were still able to fight when I busted up the ramp.

However, with Charge, I imagine trouble arising if I'm leading with Archons with the Zealots AI.
30to1
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-27 17:15:41
November 27 2010 16:58 GMT
#168
Archons up front. Just curious - does anyone manually use charge - or does everyone just auto fire it? I imagine that using manual charge could be ridiculously better - like insta surround.

but i've never manually used charge - always auto. maybe i should change that.

EDIT:

http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4434857/

I think this is potentially a revolutionary game. I think that the combination of voidray AND phoenix is a (painfully obvious but) tremendous revolution in how to use protoss air.

EDIT 2: in fact I think its so revolutionary that I'm gonna make a new thread for it :D
GreYMisT
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States6736 Posts
November 28 2010 02:11 GMT
#169
Just wondering about a potential way around the FF problem people seem to be mentioning about this build. Why not start off with a DT rush with a warp prisim? that way you have the robo bay already available to make obs + warp prisims for archon drops, chargelot warpins, and DT attacks. I've found that as toss i hate drops with a passion, so this kind of play seems like it could be a possiblity.
"life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery" / Join TL Mafia! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
mvpAKAenvyME
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada179 Posts
November 28 2010 02:24 GMT
#170
This build actually is REALLY good, even IF your opponent uses alot of sentries to FF you, since you'll be making alot of templards, you can storm his army while its on the move, or idle, you can feedback his sentries, and once he has no energy, and all his units are weak as hell from multiple storms you go in for the kill.

Sure he can cliff walk, but he cant stay on the high ground forever, hes gotta come down and face you head-on at some point if hes going to come close to winning the game. I think with some work this strat could be really good.
30to1
Profile Joined November 2010
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-28 04:05:05
November 28 2010 03:45 GMT
#171
again, not claiming perfect play or anything - but I hit another pvp on ladder so I figured I'd upload it. Never gets to a point where I would play archon, cuz games don't last that long.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/109842-1v1-protoss-delta-quadrant

been messing around with various timings not sure what I like exactly.

Also - played 2 terrans on ladder, pushed zeal/sentry + void in both and won. I'm loving zeal/sentry/stargate - although I've noticed that my macro really falls apart if I try to harass.

edit: when playing zeal/sentry in early game - i have completely stopped using FF to try to split up his army, instead either vs terran or toss I am just trying to cut off retreat at all times and just kill a maximum amount of units - in small numbers if the enemy can't run - zeals seem cost effective vs everything.

edit 2: for fun, heres a pvt - sloppy ass play from both of us admittedly. But I'd like to point out how effective the first fight was. If you look at his first little push, i took literally zero losses. The FF usage was a little sloppy, designed to cut off his retreat and it did - but it really could have been better.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/109849-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple

I'd upload other pvts but the other two - they went heavy marauder and i just killed them with void.

Also note - I played a few practice games with someone from this site - and they wrecked me with pure marine hordes in game 1 and pure hydra hordes in game 2. I need to work on that ;D
Gr4ndmasterSexy
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany27 Posts
November 28 2010 08:57 GMT
#172
in fact all this guys in your reps were just terribad.

the guy on xel naga crushed your first attack easily. but first of all he made 3+ immortals vs zealot and archon only..... how stupid is that? he didnt get any collossi. than he runs into your base and let himself surround by your zealots... even without charge and archons you would have crushed him in this positioning. he just sucked hard.

so did the other two guys.... if you post a real game vs a decent protoss going for 1 base collossi and win, i may think about trying this by myself.
Arch00
Profile Joined July 2010
United States233 Posts
May 11 2011 03:35 GMT
#173
Bumping since this might actually work with the new patch
www.twitch.tv/arch00 ~ Arch.391 SC2
epikAnglory
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States1120 Posts
May 11 2011 03:38 GMT
#174
On May 11 2011 12:35 Arch00 wrote:
Bumping since this might actually work with the new patch

Lol I thought this thread was written today or yesterday, I was a bit shocked at the FF comments in the first page lol. But yeah, Archons are definitely going to be a viable option in PvT and PvP now, Roaches hard counter everything in PvZ, so its not going to make a big difference there.

One interesting thign i did notice is that Archons can now kite non-speed Banelings off creep, nothing significant but just a fun fact to know.
710+ Posts with a Probe Icon =D
FredSuceBats
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada12 Posts
May 11 2011 03:49 GMT
#175
Hey spek, I think it's the right time to rewite that topic! I'm pretty sure that It would work. You're a visionary.
Quebec
YoyoDevo
Profile Joined April 2011
United States44 Posts
May 11 2011 05:28 GMT
#176
this might actually work now lol. Maybe we should come up with a good build order for this
Hannibal942
Profile Joined June 2010
United States5 Posts
May 11 2011 05:28 GMT
#177
BUMP

This strat can actually work now with thr archon buff. Finally, a day where collossi won't rear its ugly head in PvP.
I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
J.E.G.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States389 Posts
May 11 2011 07:27 GMT
#178
been messing around with this since the patch. Trying to figure out a blink stalker --> zealot archon build to utilize some earlier harass options, but haven't had much success. Anyone else tried something like this?
Do or do not; there is no try.
AGIANTSMURF
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1232 Posts
May 11 2011 07:38 GMT
#179
you know, its funny... I was reading the OP (after it got bumped of course) and i kept noticing these little things that were bothering me...

Things like when he said that archons could be lifted by phoenix and how someone responded that he would lose to FF's......

It was only when i looked at the sig area and saw the OLD POST thing that i realized this was posted months ago....

Talk about foresight.....

I think this has alot of promise (If it had potential then it surely has potential now...) Def. gonna start considering this as an option.... I totally agree with how Archons are alot easier to produce since they are still gateway units.... absolutely going to give this a shot and post replays if i have any success
Thats "Grand-Master" SMURF to you.....
Z3kk
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4099 Posts
May 11 2011 07:47 GMT
#180
Yeah, now that archons are massive, FFs are rendered nearly useless, and the improved range helps a lot. Looking forward to hearing some opinions and discussions on this build's viability in light of the new changes! With some tweaking, this has the potential to be a very, very strong PvP build indeed.
Failure is not falling down over and over again. Failure is refusing to get back up.
spacemonkeyy
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia477 Posts
May 11 2011 10:31 GMT
#181
I just had pretty good success with this tactic, can't find sc2replayed seems to be down atm though?
TheKRoc
Profile Joined February 2011
United States74 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 22:36:11
May 11 2011 11:15 GMT
#182
A lot of people in here misunderstand where the strength of this composition lies.

First, know that Charge is 75% of what makes this build good. You guys don't seem to understand how fucking good it is in PvP. If you haven't tried it, go and do it right now.

Here is how every fight goes vs. Colossus:

You have 4 Archons and 20 Zealots. He has 3 Colossus, 14 Zealots, and some stalkers (I think thats around even, but it doesn't really matter)

Chargelots basically always get more surface area on other Zealots straight up, (I.E. if I have 14 Chargelots and you have 14 Zealots, my Zealots will charge into a curve around yours) but to further skew the fight in your favor further you're going to have more zealots. This creates a little concave, and after a second or two Archons get to the bag guy's Zealots and rip the shit out of them (they do this anyways, but your Chargelots bundle A-moved Zealots nicely for splash). You will lose the vast majority of your Zealots here, but come away with maybe 5 or 6. Those plus three remaining Archons go up and kill the Colossus.

End of story. And forcefields don't really work, by the way.
Paekes
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany28 Posts
May 11 2011 11:28 GMT
#183
even if there are forcefileds wont the archons just stomp the ff's after the patch?
nihlon
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden5581 Posts
May 11 2011 11:29 GMT
#184
On May 11 2011 20:15 bonerificus wrote:
A lot of people in here misunderstand where the strength of this composition lies.

First, know that Charge is 75% of what makes this build good. You guys don't seem to understand how fucking good it is in PvP. If you haven't tried it, go and do it right now.

Here is how every fight goes vs. Colossus:

You have 4 Archons and 20 Zealots. He has 3 Colossus, 14 Zealots, and some stalkers (I think thats around even, but it doesn't really matter)

Chargelots basically always get more surface area on other Zealots straight up, (I.E. if I have 14 Chargelots and you have 14 Zealots, my Zealots will charge into a curve around yours) but to further skew the fight in your favor further you're going to have more zealots. This creates a little concave, and after a second or two Archons get to the bag guy's Zealots and rip the shit out of them (they do this anyways, but your Chargelots bundle A-moved Zealots nicely for splash). You will lose the vast majority of your Zealots here, but come away with maybe 5 or 6. Those plus three remaining Archons go up and kill the Zealots.

End of story. And forcefields don't really work, by the way.


How does the collosus play a part in this? I assume you mean collosi in the end there or?
Banelings are too cute to blow up
Murloc
Profile Joined May 2011
United States4 Posts
May 11 2011 11:48 GMT
#185
I am intrigued by people testing this. I hope Spek is still around to see what he has wrought!
Pwnographics
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand1097 Posts
May 11 2011 11:59 GMT
#186
On May 11 2011 20:15 bonerificus wrote:
A lot of people in here misunderstand where the strength of this composition lies.

First, know that Charge is 75% of what makes this build good. You guys don't seem to understand how fucking good it is in PvP. If you haven't tried it, go and do it right now.

Here is how every fight goes vs. Colossus:

You have 4 Archons and 20 Zealots. He has 3 Colossus, 14 Zealots, and some stalkers (I think thats around even, but it doesn't really matter)

Chargelots basically always get more surface area on other Zealots straight up, (I.E. if I have 14 Chargelots and you have 14 Zealots, my Zealots will charge into a curve around yours) but to further skew the fight in your favor further you're going to have more zealots. This creates a little concave, and after a second or two Archons get to the bag guy's Zealots and rip the shit out of them (they do this anyways, but your Chargelots bundle A-moved Zealots nicely for splash). You will lose the vast majority of your Zealots here, but come away with maybe 5 or 6. Those plus three remaining Archons go up and kill the Zealots.

End of story. And forcefields don't really work, by the way.


Yes, because when your zealots are forcefielded so they can't hit stalkers and collosi they are very effective.

Forcefields do work, and they rip apart chargelots when supported by collosi and stalkers.
Ineffability~
Profile Joined February 2011
84 Posts
May 11 2011 11:59 GMT
#187
Why don't they nerf the one imba unit to make another unit even more imba. Storm/zealot with archons after storms will rip PvT apart now

User was warned for this post
azn_dude1
Profile Joined October 2010
162 Posts
May 11 2011 12:07 GMT
#188
On May 11 2011 20:59 Pwnographics wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 20:15 bonerificus wrote:
A lot of people in here misunderstand where the strength of this composition lies.

First, know that Charge is 75% of what makes this build good. You guys don't seem to understand how fucking good it is in PvP. If you haven't tried it, go and do it right now.

Here is how every fight goes vs. Colossus:

You have 4 Archons and 20 Zealots. He has 3 Colossus, 14 Zealots, and some stalkers (I think thats around even, but it doesn't really matter)

Chargelots basically always get more surface area on other Zealots straight up, (I.E. if I have 14 Chargelots and you have 14 Zealots, my Zealots will charge into a curve around yours) but to further skew the fight in your favor further you're going to have more zealots. This creates a little concave, and after a second or two Archons get to the bag guy's Zealots and rip the shit out of them (they do this anyways, but your Chargelots bundle A-moved Zealots nicely for splash). You will lose the vast majority of your Zealots here, but come away with maybe 5 or 6. Those plus three remaining Archons go up and kill the Zealots.

End of story. And forcefields don't really work, by the way.


Yes, because when your zealots are forcefielded so they can't hit stalkers and collosi they are very effective.

Forcefields do work, and they rip apart chargelots when supported by collosi and stalkers.

Archons stomp force fields. This build has been made a lot stronger by the new patch.
Cibron
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden253 Posts
May 11 2011 12:11 GMT
#189
On May 11 2011 20:59 Ineffability~ wrote:
Why don't they nerf the one imba unit to make another unit even more imba. Storm/zealot with archons after storms will rip PvT apart now


Haha what? Dude massive archons dont affect **** in PvT. I'd worry more about 2gate pressure...
ZOMGY (¬O_o)¬ || BeastyQQ FTW!! ||
Barty
Profile Joined December 2010
France64 Posts
May 11 2011 12:13 GMT
#190
Shouldn't an archon be in the front line instead of zealots? I mean it could be used to 1) crush forcefields 2) tank colossus&stalkers fire for a while since it's so big and splash doesnt affect like 3 zealots at a time when archons are being focused. Sure they cost a lot of gas but it's your only way to spend it.
BTW it could be interesting to compare the upgrades-scaling of archons and zealots vs colos. and stalkers !
In God We Trush
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
May 11 2011 12:33 GMT
#191
On May 11 2011 21:13 Barty wrote:
Shouldn't an archon be in the front line instead of zealots? I mean it could be used to 1) crush forcefields 2) tank colossus&stalkers fire for a while since it's so big and splash doesnt affect like 3 zealots at a time when archons are being focused. Sure they cost a lot of gas but it's your only way to spend it.
BTW it could be interesting to compare the upgrades-scaling of archons and zealots vs colos. and stalkers !


In this build (chargelot/archon), a good idea is to keep only 1-2 archons in front to break forcefields and the rest in the back. This is because having too many archons in the front would prevent your zealots from attack, and also remember that archons now have 3 range, which helps them hit behind the zealots.

Zealot Scale > Stalker Scale

Stalkers only get like +1
Zealots get +2
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
May 11 2011 14:58 GMT
#192
Zealot archon vs zealot colossus, colossus fucking rape.

User was warned for this post
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
Argus92
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands93 Posts
May 11 2011 15:16 GMT
#193
Interesting build, you need to have good position though, zealots shouldnt be clumped up, like on a small ramp, you have Melee units with this build. Also, if they take out the Archon first, they can force field you all they want, which against Zealots, is quite pwn.

Funny how at the start I didn't get the 1 Archon only, but of course it's Massive now, didn't realize it before. haha
Sakarabu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom132 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-11 15:42:54
May 11 2011 15:41 GMT
#194
On May 12 2011 00:16 Argus92 wrote:
Interesting build, you need to have good position though, zealots shouldnt be clumped up, like on a small ramp, you have Melee units with this build. Also, if they take out the Archon first, they can force field you all they want, which against Zealots, is quite pwn.

Funny how at the start I didn't get the 1 Archon only, but of course it's Massive now, didn't realize it before. haha


You are underestimating the power of the archon and how many hits it can take. At the timing this attack hits your opponent is either expanding or teching to collosi, he won't HAVE collosi yet. He will have afew gateway units at most.

Saw kiwikaki doing this vs whitera yesterday on his stream, It did stomp whitera however I will add that it was Whiteras first game ever on the new patch so i'm not gonna say it's OMFGAMAZING.

However it did seem very strong, definitely crushes a blink stalker build (stalkers just don't have the dps to kill mass speedlots effectively without forcefields), crushes a 4 gate (you need to get afew fast sentries though) and also crushes a fast tech to collosi and those are the majority of popular strats used.

All in all, we'll have to wait and see the true potential of this as people learn how to counter it etc but it's a fun build nonetheless.
chikhan
Profile Joined May 2011
Malaysia35 Posts
May 12 2011 19:49 GMT
#195
This build is totally made for patch 1.3.3! Archons as massive units totally ROLFSTOMP FF's and early Collo's
SC2 ain't SimCity2!
Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
May 12 2011 19:52 GMT
#196
Might want to add this to the OP but phoenixes cannot lift archons, i.e massive unit. However i really do think that zealot archon could be fairly good on some maps (like tyler was talking about on sotg).
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
I)etox
Profile Joined April 2011
1240 Posts
May 12 2011 20:11 GMT
#197
On May 11 2011 23:58 Lobber wrote:
Zealot archon vs zealot colossus, colossus fucking rape.


Actually, since archons cost the same minerals as a zealot does (100) while collosus cost 3x that amount (300), zealot/archon will have more zealots than zealot/collosus. Add to the fact that zealot/archon will have chargelots so they can get a better surround/not be kited by collosus and that archons do bonus damage vs. zealots, zealot/archons is looking to be a very viable build vs. zealot/collosus right now.
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
May 12 2011 21:39 GMT
#198
On May 13 2011 05:11 I)etox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 23:58 Lobber wrote:
Zealot archon vs zealot colossus, colossus fucking rape.


Actually, since archons cost the same minerals as a zealot does (100) while collosus cost 3x that amount (300), zealot/archon will have more zealots than zealot/collosus. Add to the fact that zealot/archon will have chargelots so they can get a better surround/not be kited by collosus and that archons do bonus damage vs. zealots, zealot/archons is looking to be a very viable build vs. zealot/collosus right now.



I was doing some theorycrafting in my head and I'm thinking that stalker(with blink) collosus would win this battle if microed correctly. The collosus stay near a cliff and then you blink away with stalkers after shooting a round essentially kiting the zealot/archon ball. Engaging in an open area would be like automatic win for the zealot archon ball.

I think this build makes pvp have an interesting dynamic in the mid game. and We could actually see long drawn out pvp games. This could also cause pvp to always start off with a gas steal. Looking forward to the future of pvp
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
May 12 2011 22:06 GMT
#199
On May 11 2011 23:58 Lobber wrote:
Zealot archon vs zealot colossus, colossus fucking rape.

User was warned for this post

As per request by the mod pm and warning here's a recent replay where I ended up with gateway colossus vs gateway archon and traded ridiculously well. Granted the game was not great for me and I did lose overall, he was a gm, much higher than me, I almost managed to take it despite being so far behind due to the near hard-counter of colossus vs archon.

Also granted it's not pure zealot archon vs zealot colossus but stalker zealot for both...

replay
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
r3tsa
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland94 Posts
May 12 2011 22:19 GMT
#200
Dunno guys if u realize that, but Void Rays are the only unit now with bonus dmg vs archons.
No pain, no gain.
Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
May 12 2011 22:29 GMT
#201
If you see a ton of zealots with archons, what about holding off on the forcefields and making a bunch of archon hallucinations? Same idea, if slightly less staying power, but can't be stomped on by an archon.
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
May 12 2011 22:37 GMT
#202
On May 13 2011 07:19 r3tsa wrote:
Dunno guys if u realize that, but Void Rays are the only unit now with bonus dmg vs archons.

It's not even that much, since the archon isn't armored
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
TheKRoc
Profile Joined February 2011
United States74 Posts
May 12 2011 22:37 GMT
#203
On May 11 2011 20:29 nihlon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 20:15 bonerificus wrote:
A lot of people in here misunderstand where the strength of this composition lies.

First, know that Charge is 75% of what makes this build good. You guys don't seem to understand how fucking good it is in PvP. If you haven't tried it, go and do it right now.

Here is how every fight goes vs. Colossus:

You have 4 Archons and 20 Zealots. He has 3 Colossus, 14 Zealots, and some stalkers (I think thats around even, but it doesn't really matter)

Chargelots basically always get more surface area on other Zealots straight up, (I.E. if I have 14 Chargelots and you have 14 Zealots, my Zealots will charge into a curve around yours) but to further skew the fight in your favor further you're going to have more zealots. This creates a little concave, and after a second or two Archons get to the bag guy's Zealots and rip the shit out of them (they do this anyways, but your Chargelots bundle A-moved Zealots nicely for splash). You will lose the vast majority of your Zealots here, but come away with maybe 5 or 6. Those plus three remaining Archons go up and kill the Zealots.

End of story. And forcefields don't really work, by the way.


How does the collosus play a part in this? I assume you mean collosi in the end there or?


When the Zealots die, Collossus and Stalkers can do little versus the remaining Chargelots and Archons. When you kill the other guys front line, the battle is already over (basically what I detail in the post is how easily this build kills the front line)
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
May 12 2011 22:37 GMT
#204
On May 13 2011 07:29 Resistentialism wrote:
If you see a ton of zealots with archons, what about holding off on the forcefields and making a bunch of archon hallucinations? Same idea, if slightly less staying power, but can't be stomped on by an archon.

Arcons break forcefields, gas spent on sentries would be wasted... Also hallu units get in the way of your other units if you have anything low range or melee, only useful with mass stalker/collssus or other ranged stuff.
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
BuddhaMonk
Profile Joined August 2010
781 Posts
May 12 2011 22:37 GMT
#205
Chargelot + Archon vs normal Collosus will really come down to positioning. If you can get a good spread out in the open, you have a good chance, but in a small choke, the Collosus will do better than the Archons and the charge will not factor in as much. Seems like a solid build if you can get the positioning.

TheKRoc
Profile Joined February 2011
United States74 Posts
May 12 2011 22:42 GMT
#206
On May 11 2011 20:59 Pwnographics wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 20:15 bonerificus wrote:
A lot of people in here misunderstand where the strength of this composition lies.

First, know that Charge is 75% of what makes this build good. You guys don't seem to understand how fucking good it is in PvP. If you haven't tried it, go and do it right now.

Here is how every fight goes vs. Colossus:

You have 4 Archons and 20 Zealots. He has 3 Colossus, 14 Zealots, and some stalkers (I think thats around even, but it doesn't really matter)

Chargelots basically always get more surface area on other Zealots straight up, (I.E. if I have 14 Chargelots and you have 14 Zealots, my Zealots will charge into a curve around yours) but to further skew the fight in your favor further you're going to have more zealots. This creates a little concave, and after a second or two Archons get to the bag guy's Zealots and rip the shit out of them (they do this anyways, but your Chargelots bundle A-moved Zealots nicely for splash). You will lose the vast majority of your Zealots here, but come away with maybe 5 or 6. Those plus three remaining Archons go up and kill the Zealots.

End of story. And forcefields don't really work, by the way.


Yes, because when your zealots are forcefielded so they can't hit stalkers and collosi they are very effective.

Forcefields do work, and they rip apart chargelots when supported by collosi and stalkers.


Nope. They don't. It's really hard to explain why; I would encourage you to try this composition before making judgments.

Between Archons stomping over them and the impossibility of getting a full seal with forcefields (assuming you picked a good place to engage) they really just don't do their job. And even if you get great forcefields, your Collossus army is still a ball (and surrounded by force fields too) so Archons rip the shit out of it. Seriously, go try it first.
Am0n3r
Profile Joined April 2010
United States254 Posts
May 12 2011 22:43 GMT
#207
this is gold/platinum experience from earlier today:
I have faced people trying to go archon/zealot+whatever else mix twice today and both times it was easily stumpable with blink stalkers... archons are easy to snipe with blinks and with low amounts they are harmless like a misswaypointed colossus in the middle of the enemy's base with a buddy observer...
Get comfortable being uncomfortable
Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
May 12 2011 22:49 GMT
#208
On May 13 2011 07:37 Lobber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2011 07:29 Resistentialism wrote:
If you see a ton of zealots with archons, what about holding off on the forcefields and making a bunch of archon hallucinations? Same idea, if slightly less staying power, but can't be stomped on by an archon.

Arcons break forcefields, gas spent on sentries would be wasted... Also hallu units get in the way of your other units if you have anything low range or melee, only useful with mass stalker/collssus or other ranged stuff.


Stuff in the way is exactly what you want if you have a colossus and he outnumbers you in zealots.
laonda
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands44 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 07:42:26
May 13 2011 07:41 GMT
#209
Kiwi was testing a similar build against White-ray a few days ago and indeed did well against most builds except fast collosi which he lost. Also yesterday White-ray had another match against an opponent doing a similar build like this one and also won with ease (attack was to slow and 2 collosie where up).

If i follow what whiteray mentioned. It all comes down to positioning. You do not want to fight this build in the open. If you see this build just block your ramp with pylons and keep the collosie in the back. If you have enough collosie it should be a win. But overall a very cool 'new' PVP strat! wooot

Learn how to play, not how to win
fuzzy_panda
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
New Zealand1681 Posts
May 13 2011 07:55 GMT
#210
I was watching Artosis's stream yesterday and he tested this build out on the korean ladder against another guy going for colossus. he mopped up with zealot/archon and said on the stream "oh wow that build actually does work!". Now with the new patch making Archons massive, no more FFs and phoenixes even wont work. this build is legit
SigmaoctanusIV
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States3313 Posts
May 13 2011 07:56 GMT
#211
I like the idea of the build against colossus on this wide open maps. I know this was stated above but it's going to get tricky if you get caught in a choke against colossus with zealots. I would love to see robo and drops thrown in. 2 zealots with an archon would be a great drop for the mid game. Cause I see no harass potential in this build. You will not be able to take a ramp against range colossus curious to see if anyone could use a little bit of Robo to harass while you expand against a 2 gate robo opening and you archon rush.
I am Godzilla You are Japan
Ghost Reportin
Profile Joined September 2010
83 Posts
May 13 2011 08:19 GMT
#212
how will ff destroy zealot archon? archons are a massive unit now which means they will walk all over forcefields. i think it probably would be viable in pvp but i think it fair better against bio heavy mm balls without any mech and roach/hydra/bl armys *i would add phoenix - they counter roaches 2 :-P)
Tibson
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany85 Posts
May 13 2011 09:07 GMT
#213
remember that you cant lift archons anymore, so phoenixes wouldnt be very effective against this... looks great, Im definitely gonna try it!
rawrjaaaaay
Profile Joined March 2011
United States426 Posts
May 13 2011 09:21 GMT
#214
I've been trying to get this to work, but it's rather hard on maps that are tightly packed, like Xel'Naga. Like said before, it's all down to positioning. Flanks with chargelots are especially good. The main problem I've been having is holding off pressure from fast Colossi builds. Any ideas?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
FlaminGinjaNinja
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom879 Posts
May 13 2011 09:43 GMT
#215
i don't know if this has been mensioned yet so im just throwing it out there. This build would be better if you warp in your HT and leave them as HT when you attack. You can feedback any sentries to minimise forcefield and then morph them into archons when their energy runs out. Also, now that archons are massive units doesnt that mean they can crush forcefields?
GinjaNinja.661 EU I'd like to thank my sh*t keyyboard for always messing up my 'Y's
Xacalite
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany533 Posts
May 13 2011 09:49 GMT
#216
After doing some testing myself and seeing artosis breaking PvP on the ladder with zealot archon I cant emphasis enough how hard this composition depends on positioning. Its like playing zerg. You neeeeeeed space. and I mean a lot of space. But then again it is now possible so attack terran out in the open but thats another matchup...
I feel fear...for the last time
laonda
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands44 Posts
May 13 2011 09:56 GMT
#217
Did someone already found some replays of kiwi doing this build (or another pro-gamer) to see a tight build order for this? I would really like to try this build my timing is still off

Learn how to play, not how to win
agahamsorr0w
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands359 Posts
May 13 2011 10:01 GMT
#218
On November 21 2010 18:33 sob3k wrote:
I hate to say it, but lolno

EDIT: ok, not lolno, its really a pretty decent composition, I just don't think it will replace collossi at high level.

even if it did rape collossi (which I doubt heavily, because I don't think you'll ever catch them), how will you deal with FF or blink stalkers?

I'll watch the replays and report back.

EDIT:

Rep 1

Your opponent carries out the worst 4gate I have ever see, only warps in one wave of reinforcements despite getting into your main, then blows all of his money and potential advantage on an expansion...wut. You then take the gold, he takes the third instead of his nat (why?), you macro up, he still has no collossi, you sweep in and rape his undefended expo (thats why you dont expand there). Your army is worth 3k more than his and he has one collossi at this point. More macro, you battle at your gold. You have a 30 food advantage and he somehow manages to blow all his FF without actually reducing his army surface. His composition is zealot collossus, he has like no stalkers....to your speedlot archon. DESPITE the terrible FF, your archons still do almost nothing to contribute to the fight. Watch the rep, they just wander around getting blocked while your speedlots kill him.

This replay does not show anything about your strat.

Rep 2

Your opponent attempts to forge FE while still laying down a core off of one gate with no cannons on the close positions of LT. You make some zealots and kill him. Game ends in like 4 minutes, no archons or collossi. Did you post the wrong rep?

Rep 3

I'm not even going to comment really, it against the same dude as rep 2, and he's awful. no range on the collossi, no stalkers, and no FF.

you're gonna need alot more than this to prove this is viable.

How on earth do you plan on beating someone who makes stalkers, they'll just kite you...


you should edit this. archons are now massive so ff isnt a problem anymore. phoenix are also not a problem. archons now pwns in pvp or pvt. zergs can neural the archons so they turn archons against them.
IzieBoy
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 10:51:10
May 13 2011 10:43 GMT
#219
wait... aren't archons massive units?

archons are quite fat lol

both archons and collosi can move through diagonal like a bishop in chess through buildings on one square

but note how archon cannot move through two squares to the right or left through one square-width if top and bottom is blocked XD, while the collosus can
Let's Do This! Leeeeeeeeeeeeeroy Jenkins!
IzieBoy
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 10:52:46
May 13 2011 10:50 GMT
#220
HT and archons do better in drops though.. you can fit 2 archons in a prism

speed-wise archons are faster too 2.81 move-speed
collosi are like immortal-speed of 2.25
of course when it comes to kiting, collosi > stalker > archon
Let's Do This! Leeeeeeeeeeeeeroy Jenkins!
lyrlian
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands257 Posts
May 13 2011 11:01 GMT
#221
On May 13 2011 07:06 Lobber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 23:58 Lobber wrote:
Zealot archon vs zealot colossus, colossus fucking rape.

User was warned for this post

As per request by the mod pm and warning here's a recent replay where I ended up with gateway colossus vs gateway archon and traded ridiculously well. Granted the game was not great for me and I did lose overall, he was a gm, much higher than me, I almost managed to take it despite being so far behind due to the near hard-counter of colossus vs archon.

Also granted it's not pure zealot archon vs zealot colossus but stalker zealot for both...

replay


That map is terribly bad for zealot archon play becaus eof the many many small choke points. On maps with a lot more wide open space such a battle would have been very different. Also the guys archons are constantly stuck doing nothing and he loses a few carelessly becaus ehe is unsure how to engage in the small chokes. I think the way you played it might be viable on smaller maps or maps with alot of chokes.
@lyrlian on twitter! Caster for ESET, WCS and various other events.
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 19:54:14
May 13 2011 18:57 GMT
#222
On May 13 2011 20:01 lyrlian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2011 07:06 Lobber wrote:
On May 11 2011 23:58 Lobber wrote:
Zealot archon vs zealot colossus, colossus fucking rape.

User was warned for this post

As per request by the mod pm and warning here's a recent replay where I ended up with gateway colossus vs gateway archon and traded ridiculously well. Granted the game was not great for me and I did lose overall, he was a gm, much higher than me, I almost managed to take it despite being so far behind due to the near hard-counter of colossus vs archon.

Also granted it's not pure zealot archon vs zealot colossus but stalker zealot for both...

replay


That map is terribly bad for zealot archon play becaus eof the many many small choke points. On maps with a lot more wide open space such a battle would have been very different. Also the guys archons are constantly stuck doing nothing and he loses a few carelessly becaus ehe is unsure how to engage in the small chokes. I think the way you played it might be viable on smaller maps or maps with alot of chokes.



Agreed, this was more a positional battle than anything to do with 'units countering' each other.

I almost feel that the archon composition would have done a lot better if he'd have split the army and attacked the collosi-composition from the front and back simultaneously. Instead he ran back and forth through a choke defended by 6 collosi.

I've also had some success with archons in PvP. What needs to be emphasized is that you can get them out faster than collosi, (which feels counter intuitive). I kind of suspect someone might develop a really well thought out/strong, fast archon timing in PvP at some point.



edit: curious to see how archon/vr/gw plays vs collosi/vr/gw
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
MiKTeX
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States234 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-13 23:14:01
May 13 2011 23:07 GMT
#223
been trying this kind of strategy for a bit where you open with a reasonably fast charge+templar archives and all i can say is when it works you feel like a serious baller-assed motherfucker

like sentries do NOTHING and if you target fire groups of zealots with the archon your army just owns face early on

you also have dt tech that is reasonably easy to obtain, which is really deadly lategame pvp


p.s. yeah you need to get good flanks off with zealots to win a lot of fights but id rather play a sick baller strategy that requires me to actually be good at managing my army than some dumb boring strategy that only requires me to go 1AG. besides you dont feel like a baller when you go colossi. you definitely feel like a baller when you go for speedlot+archon pvp. hell you dont just feel like a baller you ARE one son

if this turns out to be a legitimate strategy in pvp where its all like position battles and warp prism harass with storm then pvp is suddenly going to be my absolute favorite matchup. i really love zealots, archons, and templar/storm. so fun to play with



p.p.s. oh yeah its a little lackluster vs blink stalker but not unusable imo because zealots with legspeed are quite good regardless of blink (not to mention its very good at holding a ramp from offensive blinks)
RezChi
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2368 Posts
July 02 2011 18:41 GMT
#224
Very good build... out of all the times i faced this i lost haha since FF don't work due to archon massive unit then chargelots>stalkers when theres more, then archons>enemy zealots.
tuestresfat
Profile Joined December 2010
2555 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-02 21:32:23
July 02 2011 20:17 GMT
#225
edit
Denzil
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom4193 Posts
July 02 2011 20:28 GMT
#226
On July 03 2011 05:17 tuestresfat wrote:
watched the first two replays, you would've died to 4gate that isn't shit. this build spends too many resources teching somewhat early on and has no sentries to hold the ramp. blink stalkers or aggressive 4gate would kill you.

Since you clearly don't know how to scout for k4g, this must be a low level replay, and that would kill you too. But yea that's a lil off topic now.


What replays are you watching exactly? I hope it's not the ones from late 2010.
Anna: So Sen how will you prepare for your revenge v MC? Sen: With a smile.
makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
July 02 2011 20:38 GMT
#227
I just want to hop in and tell everyone to not consider this an all-round, all-win build, as those do not exist for crying out loud, and analyze everything before jumping to conclusions. Also, for the troll's sake, l2scout.

On another note, agression is needed in here as once colossi' number grows to the certain point of 6+, archons' efficiency is mitigated by almighty thermal lance. Almost got stomped by someone playing this way, but he attacked a bit too late and my colossi managed to clean stuff up.

People underestimate the ballness of archons' splash damage, it's just so good.
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
tuestresfat
Profile Joined December 2010
2555 Posts
July 02 2011 21:32 GMT
#228
On July 03 2011 05:28 Denzil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2011 05:17 tuestresfat wrote:
watched the first two replays, you would've died to 4gate that isn't shit. this build spends too many resources teching somewhat early on and has no sentries to hold the ramp. blink stalkers or aggressive 4gate would kill you.

Since you clearly don't know how to scout for k4g, this must be a low level replay, and that would kill you too. But yea that's a lil off topic now.


What replays are you watching exactly? I hope it's not the ones from late 2010.

I see I completely missed the point. Thanks for pointing that out.
epikAnglory
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States1120 Posts
July 02 2011 21:42 GMT
#229
Is there a reason you get Templar Archives over Dark Shrine? The only bad side is the timing window where you do not have an Archon is a bit later, as the cheaper price of Archons using DTs will pay off for the extra gas onto the Shrine. Also, if they happen to go the same build you could instantly win or force a Forge and cannon to be built.
710+ Posts with a Probe Icon =D
RuneSeeker
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada5 Posts
July 02 2011 22:20 GMT
#230
What's nice is archons are massive so your zealots being FF'd isn't much of a problem with some micro. Also the low supply density of this army is nice, and the ability to refresh your army instantly with many gateways is also a plus. I've done some units tests as well, as a plus not microing the archon/zealot mix but microing the opposite side (zealot-stalker-colossus), and it's hard to beat the zealot/archon mix with an equal supply "traditional" army.
Surprisingly it also does nicely against other races. If they react with ghosts/infestors, you can simply feedback and storm if left with remaining energy. Flanking with zealots the same way as with zerglings gives a very nice edge in a fight. Definately nice for people who love to use gateway units.
Improvise, Adapt and Overcome
Evilruler
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil116 Posts
July 02 2011 22:23 GMT
#231
Just a side note: I know the op is somewhat old but it says something about Archons being lifted by the phoenixes, and that wont happen anymore since they're massive now. This really works? Because if it does then PvP sounds a LOT better then i imaginated...
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