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Long time Lurker here, ready to make my mark.
Now before we get into this, I just spent an hour writing a very long and detail orientated post about this strategy. It had a rough build order, counters to the strategy, theorcrafting, the whole shibang. It was grand. I put quite a lot of effort into it, then I pressed the post preview button, and it said some crap about not being logged in. So I lost it all. Therefore, I apologize if this post is not very detailed, but I just have to share this strategy with the community, and I'm not willing to do another huge write up at this moment.
The Basic Strategy
Two units. Zealot. Archon. Now I'm sure many of you right now are thinking, "lol newb gtfo archons suk dawg". Wrong. I did unit tests. Lots of unit tests. When comparing an equal resources army, zealot/archon beats any collosus build.. easily.
The Spek Build, or just zealot/archon
Just do your normal 12 or 13 gate opening, with gas and a cyber core. But this time, get only two stalkers, then the rest are zealots. Get a twlight council when resources pemit, and chrono boost charge. By now you should have 3 or 4 warpgates. Get a templar archives after that. When your first archon pops, attack the enemy protoss with your 1 archon, 2 stalkers, and many zealots.
I apologize for the lack of a real build order. I have not hammered out the exact timings of a build order yet, and I usually just wing it. This is unimportant though, because this strategy is all about the unit composition, combined with pressure and getting an economic advantage.
This strategy is excellent for pressure and aggressiveness. Robo units take forever to build. Warpgate units do not. Therefore you will overwhelm him. Also, it's very easy to expand using this strategy.
For those of you who want to know. I am a diamond player. 2000 points and rising. Spekkio.416 on NA. I used to play protoss, but about 3 weeks ago I started playing random, and I love it. I'm also top 200 2v2 random in the world (which in my opinion doesn't mean much though, because all the good players don't even 2v2)
Counters
The only time collosi work against the zealot/archon strategy is if you have LOTS of them. Like late-game lots. 6+. When you have around 6 collosi, they really start mopping up the zealots. But even so, it's still not a hard counter. It just equals up the encounter. And also, read the about paragraph. With warpgates you can just keep making armies. Eventually those collosi will get taken down, and then they're VERY hard to replenish. But of course using the Spek Build, it's very hard for your enemy to get that many collosi because of the early and constant pressure. I've tested this.
DT's are sort of a counter. I once lost to them because my friend who was testing with me knew exactly my strategy. DT's can be stopped by getting a forge before you move out.
Stargate builds! In my opinion, this is the largest threat. Any void ray build would probably give zealot/archon a run for it's money. Phoenix's would probably work too, by lifting the archons. This is all theory crafting, I have not yet tested stargate builds against the Spek build.
But the lovely thing about the zealot/archon strategy is that you can easily adapt into a high templar and normal gateway army, or even just pure blink stalkers.
Replays
http://www.mediafire.com/?mxlhe2iyl48mjpo
http://www.mediafire.com/?z6u0tf3yx5f68td (updated, I had the wrong rep)
http://www.mediafire.com/?romdri5vk67xj9x
Note my enthusiasm in these replays. I really think this strategy will change PvP forever.
Conclusion
Finally, a way to get rid of the dreaded collosus in PvP. Enjoy. Please remember to actually test this strategy, or at least watch the replays, before calling me an idiot.
If this strategy has a positive response, I'll take the time to make a nice long quality post, with strategy, goals, counter builds, and criticism. But in the mean time, I'll just try and answer questions as they come.
EDIT
I've been getting a lot of criticism. Mostly in the form of theorycrafting... Therefore I just hammered out three more ladder games. That makes a total of 6 games now. All won using this strat. In a row. My words can only say so much, so I guess I'll just SHOW you how well this strategy works.
http://www.mediafire.com/?dxa7pkf4i8h76t6
http://www.mediafire.com/?5vbqnq0x9e2x0y8
http://www.mediafire.com/?9wyeitud36yep11
BTW, these three reps are probably a lot better than the first three.
When you watch the replays you'll notice a lack of collosi. That's because for some reason, all the games I'm playing now, people don't want to make them for me to conquer them. So you guys will have to make due with these reps. I have a theory though. Because of the aggressive nature of this build, people can't even make collosi, because they're being so pressured!
Edit 2
I'm starting to get some great feedback. It seems like whoever actually has gone out and tried this strategy, is happy with the results. I'm also getting some good criticism to make the build better, or different. This includes DT's, expansion timings, etc. Because of this feedback, I plan on re-writing my original post soon. I'll try cover every question anyone could have. Before I do this, I'd like some more replays. Rather than getting all the replays myself, it would be nice if people PM me their own replays. In the mean time, I'll try to get to a late game using the Spek Build, but I can't make any promises haha, everyone just dies too early.
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I hate to say it, but lolno
EDIT: ok, not lolno, its really a pretty decent composition, I just don't think it will replace collossi at high level.
even if it did rape collossi (which I doubt heavily, because I don't think you'll ever catch them), how will you deal with FF or blink stalkers?
I'll watch the replays and report back.
EDIT:
Rep 1
Your opponent carries out the worst 4gate I have ever see, only warps in one wave of reinforcements despite getting into your main, then blows all of his money and potential advantage on an expansion...wut. You then take the gold, he takes the third instead of his nat (why?), you macro up, he still has no collossi, you sweep in and rape his undefended expo (thats why you dont expand there). Your army is worth 3k more than his and he has one collossi at this point. More macro, you battle at your gold. You have a 30 food advantage and he somehow manages to blow all his FF without actually reducing his army surface. His composition is zealot collossus, he has like no stalkers....to your speedlot archon. DESPITE the terrible FF, your archons still do almost nothing to contribute to the fight. Watch the rep, they just wander around getting blocked while your speedlots kill him.
This replay does not show anything about your strat.
Rep 2
Your opponent attempts to forge FE while still laying down a core off of one gate with no cannons on the close positions of LT. You make some zealots and kill him. Game ends in like 4 minutes, no archons or collossi. Did you post the wrong rep?
Rep 3
I'm not even going to comment really, it against the same dude as rep 2, and he's awful. no range on the collossi, no stalkers, and no FF.
you're gonna need alot more than this to prove this is viable.
How on earth do you plan on beating someone who makes stalkers, they'll just kite you...
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On November 21 2010 18:33 sob3k wrote:
I hate to say it, but lolno
even if it did rape collossi (which I doubt heavily, because I don't think you'll ever catch them), how will you deal with FF or blink stalkers?
I'll watch the replays and report back.
I'll have to apologize, but my post that I worked on earlier got deleted. It covered these two counters.
A good counter is force field. But if you watch the replays, it still isn't a perfect counter. Force field works great on ramps and such, but it's still very hard to use it as a proper counter. And it also uses a lot of micro. My response to force field would be to just expand, and refuse to fight the enemy around ramps as much as possible. By getting an economic advantage, and fighting in the open, force field is rendered ineffective.
As for the stalkers, yes my friend and I theory crafted that as well. We have not tested it, it's up for discussion. I did test blink stalkers on the Unit_test_map though. It requires perfect micro to counter the zealot/archon. And even then, it's still not a hard counter.
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Force fields tear appart this strat i would say
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On November 21 2010 18:47 Darksoldierr wrote:
Force fields tear appart this strat i would say
You didn't watch the replays.
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I thought that Colossi range + high ground positioning and half decent Forcefields could negate this strategy easily, and I still think that after watching the replays. Both of your opponents had horrible forcefields.
I wouldn't say this is anywhere near solid, sorry. The Colossus armies might die if they charge head-on, but with even a half decent positioning and control beating this shouldn't be a problem.
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Archons are good, but teching to them in Protoss vs. Protoss only seems a bit meh.
They do tank a lot of damage, and take no bonus damage but their big strength (Biological, and Splash) is pretty negated, the splash is actually pretty pitiful (Only really good against stacked mutalisks) and the damage is kind of lack luster, likewise Storm is fairly lack luster against Protoss due to high unit health.
I think if you swapped the Templar Archives for a Darkshrine this build would be better. It would be quite similiar to a DT rush but you could back off and turn your DT's into Archons once they have detection...
You know, its probably actually better to use DT's to flank and snipe the Colossus... as they deal more damage then Archons deal.
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On November 21 2010 18:49 Talin wrote:
I thought that Colossi range + high ground positioning and half decent Forcefields could negate this strategy easily, and I still think that after watching the replays. Both of your opponents had horrible forcefields.
I wouldn't say this is anywhere near solid, sorry. The Colossus armies might die if they charge head-on, but with even a half decent positioning and control beating this shouldn't be a problem.
Okay, this strategy requires more testing then. I'll keep using it in ladder.
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i grant your wish sir.
the strategy in the second replay (http://www.mediafire.com/?mbn9ed5rdbhbv32) will henchforce be known as the 'Spek' (failed cannon rush)
edit: i can't see it working tbh... archon are basically a short-range weaker version of the colossus that can shoot air. if you had colossus you would have won easier in every game.
pro of archon:
- more minerals for more zealots
- fast twilight council for zealot legs
- can hit air
cons of archon:
- pathetic range
- lower damage
- owned by forcefield
- can't cliff walk
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On November 21 2010 18:28 Spek wrote:
I did unit tests. Lots of unit tests.
Stopped reading there
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 21 2010 18:53 hoovehand wrote:
i grant your wish sir.
the strategy in the second replay (http://www.mediafire.com/?mbn9ed5rdbhbv32) will henchforce be known as the 'Spek' (failed cannon rush)
My apologies again. I am very tired (awake for 27 hours), and I posted the wrong replay. I will edit my original post, with the proper replay. Sorry.
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just watched those replays , and your opponets were all bad , u could have killed them with whatever strategy u wanted.
1st game is a fail 4gate by your opponent , after that he let u make a gold expansion and because of that u have like 2x of his army in the last fight.
2nd game - i have no idea why u uploaded it , some non-sense forge expand , which never works in PvP?
3rd game the guy went pure zealot colosie army which is wtf? just add more stalkers and sentrys to block those archons instead of 2nd robo.
just an advice for you future archon games - making them from DTS cost LESS.
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I've been trying this strategy for a couple weeks now. My idea however didn't stem from countering colossus but rather securing a safe expansion against a 4 gate. The trick being that zealots are cheaper and are more efficient than stalkers once charge kicks in to negate kiting. Although in my version you don't try to pressure constantly but rather on OPEN maps use chargelots as a cheap contain for you to get ahead in econ.
Now what I've found is that you NEED to transition to colossus. I worked with archons under the idea that they were easier to replenish and have splash letting your own zeals get to your opponent. However this doesn't work, if your opponent plays passive and makes a fair number of sentries while techin to colossus.
You need to transition to colossus to match his and break the forcefields in the end. No way around it. But chareglots are a good opening to get an expansion so far as I've found. That econ can get you ahead. I don't think though that this directly solves the colossus problem as they're still necessary late game. I've tried double stargate transitions for voids but to no avail. Forcefields and a quasi-slowpush is enough to prevent and mop up your gateway units.
On the flip side, opening with chargelots and mostly zeals is quite effective! The faster expansion timing and the ability to maintain map control for the mostpart can shut down robo builds. And the efficiency of zeals against other gateway units with charge lets you out produce them.
I haven't found a "hard" counter to this yet, but I would say that the popular 3 gate blink timing push can give you a good run for your money. And the standard 4 gate is still a close call depending on the time for charge to finish when they get toward your base.
But these are just my findings of a similar build. Take them as you will
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I don't want to sound too negative, because I hate war of the worlds PvP apparently as much as you do. However, those replays weren't great and I'll have to also say what others have said in the thread, correct forcefield usage will pretty much kill you. In the same way you would vs a good number of speedlings, you want to reduce the surface area of your ball of death and you want your army positioned so your zealots are on the outside/front with everything else tucked behind.
Oddly enough did you know that a small group of speedlots with +2 weapons rip through probe lines (assuming 0 armour upgrades from them)
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in the third game your opponent had like 1200 minerals while his colossus were being overwhelmed by your zealots... with 4 idle warpgates... and he sucked at cliff walking.
if that guy is 2000 diamond then he really puts a dent in the '2000 diamond is uber players only' argument.
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Watched the replays. Would you mind putting them on sc2rep.com or something and not public general file sharing website? thx.
Holy god. This worked out so well.
Replay 1: Okay so you stopped a 4 gate. cool. You were pretty even with the other guy after though. Both expand at almost the same time, but you took the gold which pulled you ahead. BUT at the big battle, holy crap i didnt think you would win so convincing. E z clean up after his army died and you had most of yours. I realised its near impossible to get a full forcefield surround down when charge is so fast.
Replay 2: you should really take this one out of the OP, it just shows that 2gate>whatever the fck he was doing.
Replay 3: a more normal game. wow you really cant attack up a ramp with this build, but its okay because it gives you map control. You were obviously better than this guy, but it shows how zealots archon KILLS collosi builds. Even if the other guy was better than you and had 1 more collosi and a couple more gateway units you would have wrecked him.
All in all, I think this is actually a counter to the collosi PvP madness. though, Any stargate build would win against this tbh. :p archons cant hit a 7 range voidray. though you could scout it and go blink stalker instead.
Great job on this though.
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A: Not a new strat
B: You can't defend until you get archons against any useful push so you're basically just going zealot for the first... Way to long...
C: Seems like the opponent could just FE you since you have no stalkers and can't commit to any useful attacks early-mid game, FF natural choke, attack with stalkers... Maybe on xel'naga where there is no natural choke?
D: What? Near, pure zealot? 2 cannons+ff = immune to any attack could fucking ms rush if he wanted.
E: "DT's can be stopped by getting a forge before you move out." Wait wait wait wait a minute... CANNONS DON'T MOVE what happens if he just... attacks your army with the dts?
F: FF= free win for enemy
G: Rather than spending 300 minerals and 300 gas on tech structures then 100 minerals 300 gas on 1 archon, then moving out you could move out with the same army except 6 sentries and a couple extra zealots, FF him in and keep stalkers from kiting also you can then GS to reduce stalker dmg 20%...
H: Zealots are really slow, they can just kite you with stalkers/colossus forever, if you get charge to help that it's another 200minerals and 200 gas spent on tech making your army way to small to be useful...
Honestly I don't understand why the archon really helps... It's a worse meatshield than 2 zealots, doesn't have enough range to be really useful, the only thing it really has is that it could kill the opponents zealots faster. Seems the only way this works if it the opponent completely ignores scouting and doesn't add sentries to his standard build...
2100 protoss and I'd way rather just do zealot sentry than zealot archon... seems much better vs any composition until colossus out... Allows for early expand because you can start of mass sentry to save minerals for nexus/extra gates, much faster/less vulnerable to any early aggression.
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What I like playing with it in my mind is the feedback on HTs.. If you do a push, go to his choke, bring up a zealot, feedback his sentry if you can reach, back away and transform him, then go up. Could this work? what do you guys think?
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One thing I missed was the dark templar opening, then transitioning into archons that way. On one hand, you can get the templar archives, which lets you quickly switch to blink or storm. Also, doesn't it pop faster than the dark obelisk? On the other side, dark obelisk, you get the cheese of DTS.
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Yeah, I tested this composition too, its real solid...right up until FF is used properly, then you're completely done. Even in an open field FF will destroy zealot/archon, and good fucking luck getting up a ramp or into a choke.
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EPT
