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On November 27 2010 01:00 bobcat wrote:
I fail to see how 1 archon 2 stalkers and 20 zealots will survive against 14 zealots 4 sentries and 2 colossi.
It takes 205 seconds for the first Colossi and an extra 65 seconds for range at a cost of 900/700.
The first Archon is out at 117 seconds - assuming you have warp gates available. Sometimes I need to wait for gas so 150 seconds isn't unreasonable. That is at a cost of 400/600. Aside from that it gives the added benefit of allowing you to grab leg speed.
You can get map control 55 seconds before any Colossus hits the field and 2 minutes before range.
My gas expenditure at first push is 900. I don't get a second gas terribly early so if my opponent has 1100 (just throwing out numbers) then he can get : 3 sentries, 2 stalkers, and a colossi building with range...
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On November 27 2010 01:02 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 11:47 Daedalus81 wrote:On November 26 2010 11:10 Informat wrote:
Personally i'd rather invest in blink stalkers and attack before the toss achieves the 4 colossi count. Archons are strong against bionic units and the only bionic unit for protoss is the zealot. Also, colossi would kill faster than archons any day with splash. Not to mention the colossi could always climb cliffs and roast archons without FF.
The Colossi splash relies on unit size. The Archon bucks that quite a bit. ....Unless you are a good protoss and micro your colossi. Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 15:27 30to1 wrote:On November 26 2010 12:42 Daedalus81 wrote:On November 26 2010 12:14 bjornkavist wrote:
I have not watched the replays yet, and I'm sure you put a lot of effort into this but I'm afraid it can't work too consistently. like you mentioned Dts (my fave unit in PvP) can easily counter it if they dont see it coming. And I have tried an Archon Zealot build in a tournament once where I was absolutely demolished in PvP, in your defense though I did not refine this build much. But the best way for this build to work is for them to rely on not microing their collosi which in my opinion is not a recipe for a good build. First replay my opponent got late DTs. I can get an earlier forge for upgrades and one cannon. For the 1 in 20 games I face DTs its a non-issue. BTW - I've watched a variety of your replays and like your style. That said, I think that there are some improvements you can make in this matchup. 1 - you have full map control. take advantage of that, and keep him feeling under pressure. 2 - deny him any expansion what so ever - set patrol points with probes for ninja expansions. 3 - never move out without forward pylons or a warp prism. its just dumb to neglect the advantage warp gates give you. people keep claiming the best answer to this build is stalker/sentry -- they're wrong. they're just so dependent on using the same build over and over that they can't really think out of the box. "if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail" right? so - if all you know is stalker / sentry / colossus then FF + colossus is your answer to everything. My prediction is that zealots will become the core unit in pvp matchups over the next few months - same as marine / tank has regained the core spot in terran play. And I think the fertile ground for toss strategy revolves around its neglected air. Phoenix are amazing units - they just cause you to slip on macro if you have low apm. but they're incredible units. Void ray also is really neglected aside from use as a shitty banshee proxy for cheese play - the void ray is not a cheese unit - its powerful air support - and is really great if used that way. Zealots are already a core unit in PvP matchups. As for hammers and nails. People's logic is not flawed. Colossus/sentry/zealot is a great tool to use against and army THAT HAS NO RANGED CAPABILITIES. When all I see are nails, I can't help but use my hammer.
Hahaha, great post. But from my experience, zealots are absolutely not the core unit in PVP - they're generally treated as a support unit for colossus (which is the core unit in pvp).
I've put up around 4 posts so far asserting that vs a fast colossus build - going starport instead of archon is probably superior to archon (archon being better vs 4 gates or more t1 centric play). A 80% zealot build supported by phoenix/void will beat the force you suggest (zealot/sentry/colo). You need stalkers to deal with air and the more stalkers you make - the weaker you are to zealot.
My modification of the zeal/archon build (again) is as follows:
Open with 2 gate / 2 forge (zealots scale upgrades better than any other protoss unit) 3 gate 1 forge or 3 gate twilight depending on taste.
If enemy playing robo:
- if you do damage early, go for +2/+2 fast to finish him off ~10 minutes.
- if not a lot of early damage, go starport for phoenix or void depending on taste/apm.
if enemy going 4 gate:
- go for archive or dark shrine depending on taste and play archons to counter the zealot heavy response you're likely to see.
I think that 2-3 early sentries are key - since you need maxed energy to end kiting. After that most of your gas should either go into upgrades, air or archons depending on how your opponent plays or how the match is unfolding.
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Could this be a viable build against zerg?
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On November 27 2010 11:02 Rolf wrote:
Could this be a viable build against zerg?
Yes and no. I still do chargelot / void into archon and then grab immortals if they go roach heavy. As long as you can apply pressure and not make yourself weak to 7RR it could be fine.
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Against zerg it works fairly well. But I mean if they're going roach push, or just mass roach in general, you shouldn't be getting mass zealots, because I mean if roaches didn't kill zealots, zerg would lose every time to this build... (because archons vs mutalisks = faceroll PWNAGE)
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Yeah, thb, I've been working on a surprisingly similar build vs terran thats actually working pretty well. Vs terran i do rush charge instead of ups, but still throw down stargate early for void/phoenix.
Mixed results (mostly due to weakness vs cloaked banshee) still but I think there is a lot of promise there and pvt is my worst match.
I think the reality is that PvX a strong zealot presence supported by 2 sentries and 2 voids at ~8 minutes is just a really potent composition - highly underrated. In PvT I generally rush storm after, naturally. Nice thing is that it works pretty well against mech also (thor rush, etc) - the massive problem is lack of detection for cloaked banshee.
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On November 27 2010 11:06 Daedalus81 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 11:02 Rolf wrote:
Could this be a viable build against zerg? Yes and no. I still do chargelot / void into archon and then grab immortals if they go roach heavy. As long as you can apply pressure and not make yourself weak to 7RR it could be fine.
Charge/Void? I'm assuming you're going dual Stargate? What if they go Muta, just go Pheonix/Void?
I'm currently making the switch from Zerg/Terran into Protoss. Never played Protoss at all, ever. I tried this strategy, I barely won but I won nonetheless. Going to try and refine it as much as possible.
Question though, do I lead with my Archons or my Zealots? Archons are such monster tanks, I remember playing a game where two of my Archons got forcefielded up a ramp and took on something like 8 stalkers, 2 zealots and a sentry for about 15-20 seconds before my army came up and they were still able to fight when I busted up the ramp.
However, with Charge, I imagine trouble arising if I'm leading with Archons with the Zealots AI.
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Archons up front. Just curious - does anyone manually use charge - or does everyone just auto fire it? I imagine that using manual charge could be ridiculously better - like insta surround.
but i've never manually used charge - always auto. maybe i should change that.
EDIT:
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4434857/
I think this is potentially a revolutionary game. I think that the combination of voidray AND phoenix is a (painfully obvious but) tremendous revolution in how to use protoss air.
EDIT 2: in fact I think its so revolutionary that I'm gonna make a new thread for it :D
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Just wondering about a potential way around the FF problem people seem to be mentioning about this build. Why not start off with a DT rush with a warp prisim? that way you have the robo bay already available to make obs + warp prisims for archon drops, chargelot warpins, and DT attacks. I've found that as toss i hate drops with a passion, so this kind of play seems like it could be a possiblity.
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This build actually is REALLY good, even IF your opponent uses alot of sentries to FF you, since you'll be making alot of templards, you can storm his army while its on the move, or idle, you can feedback his sentries, and once he has no energy, and all his units are weak as hell from multiple storms you go in for the kill.
Sure he can cliff walk, but he cant stay on the high ground forever, hes gotta come down and face you head-on at some point if hes going to come close to winning the game. I think with some work this strat could be really good.
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again, not claiming perfect play or anything - but I hit another pvp on ladder so I figured I'd upload it. Never gets to a point where I would play archon, cuz games don't last that long.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/109842-1v1-protoss-delta-quadrant
been messing around with various timings not sure what I like exactly.
Also - played 2 terrans on ladder, pushed zeal/sentry + void in both and won. I'm loving zeal/sentry/stargate - although I've noticed that my macro really falls apart if I try to harass.
edit: when playing zeal/sentry in early game - i have completely stopped using FF to try to split up his army, instead either vs terran or toss I am just trying to cut off retreat at all times and just kill a maximum amount of units - in small numbers if the enemy can't run - zeals seem cost effective vs everything.
edit 2: for fun, heres a pvt - sloppy ass play from both of us admittedly. But I'd like to point out how effective the first fight was. If you look at his first little push, i took literally zero losses. The FF usage was a little sloppy, designed to cut off his retreat and it did - but it really could have been better.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/109849-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple
I'd upload other pvts but the other two - they went heavy marauder and i just killed them with void.
Also note - I played a few practice games with someone from this site - and they wrecked me with pure marine hordes in game 1 and pure hydra hordes in game 2. I need to work on that ;D
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in fact all this guys in your reps were just terribad.
the guy on xel naga crushed your first attack easily. but first of all he made 3+ immortals vs zealot and archon only..... how stupid is that? he didnt get any collossi. than he runs into your base and let himself surround by your zealots... even without charge and archons you would have crushed him in this positioning. he just sucked hard.
so did the other two guys.... if you post a real game vs a decent protoss going for 1 base collossi and win, i may think about trying this by myself.
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Bumping since this might actually work with the new patch
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On May 11 2011 12:35 Arch00 wrote:
Bumping since this might actually work with the new patch
Lol I thought this thread was written today or yesterday, I was a bit shocked at the FF comments in the first page lol. But yeah, Archons are definitely going to be a viable option in PvT and PvP now, Roaches hard counter everything in PvZ, so its not going to make a big difference there.
One interesting thign i did notice is that Archons can now kite non-speed Banelings off creep, nothing significant but just a fun fact to know.
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Hey spek, I think it's the right time to rewite that topic! I'm pretty sure that It would work. You're a visionary. 
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this might actually work now lol. Maybe we should come up with a good build order for this
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BUMP
This strat can actually work now with thr archon buff. Finally, a day where collossi won't rear its ugly head in PvP.
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been messing around with this since the patch. Trying to figure out a blink stalker --> zealot archon build to utilize some earlier harass options, but haven't had much success. Anyone else tried something like this?
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you know, its funny... I was reading the OP (after it got bumped of course) and i kept noticing these little things that were bothering me...
Things like when he said that archons could be lifted by phoenix and how someone responded that he would lose to FF's......
It was only when i looked at the sig area and saw the OLD POST thing that i realized this was posted months ago....
Talk about foresight.....
I think this has alot of promise (If it had potential then it surely has potential now...) Def. gonna start considering this as an option.... I totally agree with how Archons are alot easier to produce since they are still gateway units.... absolutely going to give this a shot and post replays if i have any success
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Yeah, now that archons are massive, FFs are rendered nearly useless, and the improved range helps a lot. Looking forward to hearing some opinions and discussions on this build's viability in light of the new changes!  With some tweaking, this has the potential to be a very, very strong PvP build indeed.
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EPT
