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On November 22 2010 02:31 Arch00 wrote:
Once it hits mid-late game and you're blocking his expo or whatever, can't you back off, tech to getting one colossus and just use it to run over all of his forcefields? Yea its like 700 minerals and 500 gas to build one unit just to break forcefields but its worth thinking about. Also opens up use of warp prisms for storm drops if you research that eventually.
Why not just take hallucination and spawn a colossi? They crush ff too...
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Archons are practically melée units, and with zealots not being able to attack through forcefields at all, there's no way this can end up being viable. Your build is also very vague. It will be incredibly difficult to get a Templar Archive up on one base. Could try to use DTs instead to pressure then archon, but all-in-all, this build will die to early aggression. You won't have enough forcefields to hold off pressure if you're trying to spend gas on all of that tech. Your opponent can just expand if you try to delay things.
If Archons could walk over forcefields, this would be a different story.
Edit: Hallucinated Collossi CANNOT break forcefields.
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I'm pretty noobish, but I have something like an 85% in PVP because I realized that in terms of upgrades zealots scale up much better than any other protoss T1 unit - and since all toss players seem to go early robo for immortal (which also sucks against zealot) - I just started building mass zealots with dual forge and some sentries to cut down on kiting.
I try to hit +2/+2 at around 8-10 minutes with charge obviously. My +2/+2 timing attack is pretty devastating. After 2 sentries early on, I only spend gas on upgrades. I'd really suggest it. The key is to understand that zealots improve with upgrades faster than any other protoss unit, and are more massable. If I don't want to upgrade rush, then I generally go 1-2 stargate depending. I've been sort of alternating between the two, although I'm starting to lean more towards stargate for phoenix (just because they're so much f'n fun - and it strongly encourages opponent to build more stalkers).
My only pvp loss in last ~10 games was to a 10 worker dual proxy gate that i failed to scout. Given, I am noobish - but reality is that protoss (unlike every other race) does not have a cost effective T1 answer to zealots - especially not upgraded zealots. If he puts down the robo - you should be able to kill him with upgraded zealots - or map control before he can play colossus. Really important to use FF to prevent kiting.
I make no claims on mid-high level diamond. But below that, this will dominate most protoss playing standard pvp metagame (mass stalker, mass sentry, quick colosus, balanced).
I'm not so sure about archons. Based on my experience, stargate or upgrades are a better investment for gas.
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Just faced a 4 gate on blistering sands. To help stop this fail theory crafting...
THE START IS THE SAME. They can't scout anything out of normal with their first probe, i chrono out my stalker, kill the scout, then I use that stalker to make sure they aren't doing anything cheesy (after my first probe dies ofc).
Then sentry, then another stalker... this shuts down from then, the really early aggression, unless it's like 6 pool or 2 gate, but you should adapt after your probe scouts that..
And now with 4 gate, I find that you can use your zealots without charge to ramp abuse, the ff will just KILL all stalkers. However one problem I DID face, was when my opponent went 4 gate, I was chronoboosting out my charge, and they were breaking down my BACK door. This actually was a pain to deal with, ramp abuse not half as easy, and he wasn't some sort of noob or anything..
I had no charge when the first stalkers, sentries and zealots came, and I was pretty sure I was screwed. But I held it off sacrificing about 1/4 - 1/3 of my probes to make a worker wall, to try and stop stalkers, and I utilized the high grass thing as best as I could...
What REALLY surprised me, was the DIFFERENCE zealot charge made afterwards. It took a while of microing against the stalkers, he would try to run, and take some shots, and run, while I tried to abuse any ramp I could. But eventually when I got about 10-15 zealots with the charge, trust me when I say GODLY. I was way behind, the other protoss player had a natural already, but once I had the 15 zealots with like 5 sentries, (note that I didn't go for ht techs this game, was way too dependent on the ffs and charges). The natural went down in literally seconds. He had about 8 stalkers and a few zealots, but the charge and ffs can get such a nice surround and etc, it kills no matter how hard they try to micro. Took down his natural, got my natural starting, broke rocks of his back door, went back to natural, killed natural again, at that point he had nothing to defend, and it was just clean up..
So to re-iterate my experience, I find definitely you shouldn't rush crazily for that charge, I think it's a lot better to play standard till 2 gates, then going for twilight instead of robo, and chrono boosting my charge. Literally, if you're not on blistering sands, you'll be more or less fine just using 1 or 2 sentries and just getting ffs down and kill their armies, even against 4 gate. But I mean even on blistering sands, sure it's harder, but once you get that critical mass of zealots (about 10-15), with charge, with sentries, it fights off basically everything...
I feel like some people are exaggerating the difficulty in getting archons.. It's the same with colossus, just a bit faster, with earlier aggression thanks to charge. If someone's 4 gating you, you don't go for fast colossus, you adapt, but in THIS case, you still get your charge, and that large amount of zealots. That way, you still defend, you can do a huge counter attack, and still be getting your ht tech fairly soon.
More people trying and less people theory crafting please?
EDIT: Was wondering what you guys think later game? The chargelots are pretty much gods, and usually DO finish up the game, but I mean it's not going to work every time. Archons seem more suitable for Pvt, as it works with the same concepts, but in this case, it's used to delay time for storm tech.
Oh and for quick banshee, yah this build u'll just have to throw away, I find if my stalker goes up the ramp and I see a quick factory (and I suspect a 1/1/1 build for instance), I just go back to normal play with colossus, or I try to have some fun and get some pheonixes and really pwn some terran ass :D (even though micro + macro can be a bit tough to watch well)
Oh and for all those still too lazy to try out the build, or try to look at some ideas, NO ff does not totally rape this build. That's like saying a terran push can't ever get up a ramp, cuz of sentries. Not true. Similar concept, not only do you have a large army, but the charge lets a good amount of your up the ramp suddenly at once (and who walls in pvp when they think ur going a normal build?)
And the main concept of this is to make sure they're going off 1 base only. You'l have that 15 zealots with archons and a few stalkers, and you're just watching him try to do anything, while you saturate your expo and get whatever you want. He can't ff and win you in an open area, if he gets that many sentries in the first place your zealots aren't going to get dmg'd very much.
Decided to post my replay. Yah I'm a total noob cake, and my multi tasking could definitely have been better, (omfg looking back at my replay I failed with ff placement like a million times.. But on the other hand imagine how epic/easily i WOULD'VE won if you were playing same build, better ffs :D)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108895-1v1-protoss-blistering-sands
(I'm bobsaurus btw)
As a note, I was messing around a bit at the beginning attacking his pylon, so I did slip up a bit macro-wise early game.
If you bother watching (hint hint, watch), you'll see at about the 10 minute mark, I'm finally gotten the charge out, getting a few more zealots.
Watching the game, I admit to being VERY amazed at being able to push back the 4 gate, honestly I had given up hope but kept on playing. You might wonder actually what the replay has to do with this, but it's to show that you can easily change the build a bit, and thus you can fight off 4 gate or other timing pushes (but I seriously must note, it is actually something to think whether or not to use this on blistering sands. Had he tried to only use the legit ramp, I would've fended it off easy as hell.) Also, it shows how cost efficient zealots are. After the first attack and losing a lot of probes because he did a good ff and separated them (making them just easy targets), I had a really awful economy. And yet I kept trading armies off (though perserving sentries), only losing my zealots, but I still maintained, and eventually over took his army size.
And I hope you do get a general sense of what I mean by "you might not be able to go up his ramp, but you sure as hell can expand while killing theirs". :D
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I really think that going starport or upgrades is a better path vs a robo build.
Archons are really a counter to zealots. If he has robo, he'll have obs so you probably won't get much milage out of DT and at less than cost void rays have more utility than archons (and come faster) - additionally, it encourages him to build more stalker - which you can easily kill.
If he goes for four gate, then archon makes more sense since he'll switch to mostly zealot. But honestly, upgrades make a huge difference here - and if you dual forge you'll certainly be way ahead of him.
FF is mostly for preventing kiting like the post above or punishing retreats.
EDIT: Included a replay - not going to claim perfect play by any means. I lose a skirmish at around 11 minutes - most people will probably think its because of FF - its actually because half my army is in the red and I didn't realize it so was reinforcing with sentries instead of additional zealots.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108899-1v1-protoss-lost-temple
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Apologies to the above, this will be theory crafting.
I see a ton of people mentioning 2 or 3 points then saying this is not viable, I think there is just a bit of ignorance in these posts.
The first claim i see is that archons would get kited, either by stalkers or colossi. I suppose these claims are made in ignorance of it's speed, it's only slightly slower than a stalker and significantly faster than a colossi. Just to provide the numbers (courtesy of liquipedia):
Zeal/Collo: 2.25
Archon: 2.81
Stalker: 2.95
For a stalker ball to effectively "kite" an archon/chargelot army they would have to walk something near the length of a LT main, and in that time the archon would've probably fully recovered from the attack and then some. The colossi cliffwalking is a fair argument, but then the colossi player must be moving it away from the battle preemptively, or the archon would get a few hits off easily. Also note that a running colossi is not an attacking colossi.
Second claim, it's too expensive for any kind of early play/inferior timing fast collo. I like numbers, so let's look at the absolute minimum resources on tech/units to get 1 of either.
Archon: 550 min/ 600 gas, 277 in game seconds
Colossi: 900 min/ 700 gas, 390 in game seconds
Archons will come out at a minimum of 2 minutes earlier IF the colossi player has a good 3-400 mineral lead and an extra 100 gas somehow laying around. Which, in a mirror, means the archon player had already lost. Another interesting number is how fast each can be produced, a new archon can be made, if resources are available, every 57 seconds, a new colossi can be made every 75 seconds. Both of these numbers assume near equal production structures (2 gates 300/0 to 1 robo 200/100). A fast archon is just as doable, if not more so, than a fast colo.
The third claim is decently accurate, force field wins. There is no visible answer to it in the build, but then every build without a colossi is in the same position. The best counter argument would probably be that if the other toss has sentries, that's all the more gas he's behind in getting those dreaded colossi. Granted, the answer is simply to not fight at a choke and contain instead, but then this can't win the game for you.
While reading this thread, I did come up with a possible solution to the force field problem. You obviously can't really afford to risk your (to be) archon and a few zeals trying to feedback a sentry, they'd just warp a new one before you had the archon made IF you actually managed to not loose the HT's in your attempt. But what about a single, or maybe 2, phoenix? one well timed graviton beam would allow you a safe attack, similar to how you would graviton a seiged up tank then run in with zeals. Once you're in their base, the ff becomes much less frightening, and getting 2 phoenix while containing shouldn't be too hard.
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ive actually been experimenting with gettin a bunch of zealots and archons, and just using em to defend my natural and not pushing out. (though i do scout if they expanded, if so i attack to do lots of damage). then when they come to attack me, i make sure to have 2 or 3 temps with a lot of energy to do like 6 feedbacks which will oblierate all his sentrys, allowing ur zlot/archons to shred thru the rest.
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Sorry for the post spam.
But I want to re-emphasize. I imagine that archons are in the build to deal with opponent zealots. This is really the only place in this fight where they shine.
The core idea here, really, is zealots with charge. The reason being that the protoss meta currently favors stalkers into colossus by huge margin. So most protoss you see will rush robo. You punish them with zealots, forcing them to build zealots (at a loss), then counter that with archon.
I think that a more robust strategy is something of the following:
Open 2 gate dual forge / 3 gate + forge / 3 gate + twilight (i don't think rushing twilight is worth it over forges personally) - you want upgrades on your zealots more than even warpgates.
Beat on your opponent with zealots using FF to punish retreating/kiting.
If opponent is going robo
-> if you did damage early game, more upgrades to finish him off as +2/+2 hits.
-> if you didn't do much damage, go air - phoenix and or voidray depending on taste and APM.
- this forces him to build more stalkers, which your chargelots can maul.
If opponent is going 4 gate
-> go archon to counter the zealots he will certainly make.
Be flexible. Different units have their place. The heart of this is really that protoss has no answer to T1/T2 answer to zealots - but the protoss metagame currently completely neglects them. So surprise your opponent and brutalize them with it, while transitioning into whatever answer they're most likely to respond with.
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I really like the build, minus the fact that you named it after yourself and said it would "change pvp forever." Its just a little annoying to see a tadbit of stubbornness thinking you'll completely change the meta overnight, it gets in the way of the actual good strategy.
I'd like to see replays of you LOSING vs specific timings- if I remember correctly TL strat guidelines say something along the lines of "If you try a new build order and win 6 games in a row on ladder, it DOES NOT mean it instantly is amazing."
And as far as the build order refinement- I think the inclusion of upgrades is very essential. In your "extensive unit testing", did you find out what upgrade thresholds needed to be reached? Specifically, I'm thinking about shield upgrades for archon- are they actually beneficial? Or is +1wep/+1 armor too good to pass up? (+1armored lots are amazingly tough)
Also, perhaps when you take your third (possibly fourth), you could consider adding VR's to the comp- it would help nullify the supposed "6+ colo count" which lot archon loses out too.
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On November 25 2010 13:56 30to1 wrote:
Sorry for the post spam.
But I want to re-emphasize. I imagine that archons are in the build to deal with opponent zealots. This is really the only place in this fight where they shine.
The core idea here, really, is zealots with charge. The reason being that the protoss meta currently favors stalkers into colossus by huge margin. So most protoss you see will rush robo. You punish them with zealots, forcing them to build zealots (at a loss), then counter that with archon.
I think that a more robust strategy is something of the following:
Open 2 gate dual forge / 3 gate + forge / 3 gate + twilight (i don't think rushing twilight is worth it over forges personally) - you want upgrades on your zealots more than even warpgates.
Beat on your opponent with zealots using FF to punish retreating/kiting.
If opponent is going robo
-> if you did damage early game, more upgrades to finish him off as +2/+2 hits.
-> if you didn't do much damage, go air - phoenix and or voidray depending on taste and APM.
- this forces him to build more stalkers, which your chargelots can maul.
If opponent is going 4 gate
-> go archon to counter the zealots he will certainly make.
Be flexible. Different units have their place. The heart of this is really that protoss has no answer to T1/T2 answer to zealots - but the protoss metagame currently completely neglects them. So surprise your opponent and brutalize them with it, while transitioning into whatever answer they're most likely to respond with.
Are you guys playing a different version of starcraft where sentries dont exist? My experience with zealots is that stalkers kite them to death before charge hits, and even after charge is completed, mixing in a few zealots + sentries causes the chargelots to get totally zoned and owned. Any competent player will change his army composition and add sentries when he sees a mass of melee units. IMHO the worst part is if you keep spamming zealots, he will just get a bunch of sentries, save up minerals to expand and you cant do shit because zealots just get blocked by force fields and sit around looking stupid. All your posts seem so much like theory craft.
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"I apologize for the lack of a real build order. I have not hammered out the exact timings of a build order yet, and I usually just wing it."
Um. Just. Wow.
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I'd like to speak from experience. Everyone here has pretty much got this down already, the key to this build is not the archons, but the charge lots. W/o chargelots your archons get surrounded or put at the front lines of the main battle and don't get to dole out damage like they were meant to. It's similar to why you get zealots in collossi builds, the collossi are meant to sway the tide of the lot vs. lot battle and then if your lots when they can do damage to everything else. The reason why charge isn't necessary in that instance is because 1: Collossi have 6/9 range (depending on upgrade) and 2) Collossi can walk over ground armies and up and over cliffs so they aren't really in much danger to melee units. However in an Archon/Zealot mix, you don't have the luxury of having a unit who 1) has the same range, or 2) has the same cliff-walking abilities. So, in essence, getting the charge lots compensates for reasons 1) and 2) and allows your zealots to be successful later on.
I assume this isn't news to anyone, but I always feel stating the obvious and giving reasons makes everything more memorable than, "I have to do it because that is what the BO tells me to."
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On November 25 2010 14:20 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 13:56 30to1 wrote:
Sorry for the post spam.
But I want to re-emphasize. I imagine that archons are in the build to deal with opponent zealots. This is really the only place in this fight where they shine.
The core idea here, really, is zealots with charge. The reason being that the protoss meta currently favors stalkers into colossus by huge margin. So most protoss you see will rush robo. You punish them with zealots, forcing them to build zealots (at a loss), then counter that with archon.
I think that a more robust strategy is something of the following:
Open 2 gate dual forge / 3 gate + forge / 3 gate + twilight (i don't think rushing twilight is worth it over forges personally) - you want upgrades on your zealots more than even warpgates.
Beat on your opponent with zealots using FF to punish retreating/kiting.
If opponent is going robo
-> if you did damage early game, more upgrades to finish him off as +2/+2 hits.
-> if you didn't do much damage, go air - phoenix and or voidray depending on taste and APM.
- this forces him to build more stalkers, which your chargelots can maul.
If opponent is going 4 gate
-> go archon to counter the zealots he will certainly make.
Be flexible. Different units have their place. The heart of this is really that protoss has no answer to T1/T2 answer to zealots - but the protoss metagame currently completely neglects them. So surprise your opponent and brutalize them with it, while transitioning into whatever answer they're most likely to respond with.
Are you guys playing a different version of starcraft where sentries dont exist? My experience with zealots is that stalkers kite them to death before charge hits, and even after charge is completed, mixing in a few zealots + sentries causes the chargelots to get totally zoned and owned. Any competent player will change his army composition and add sentries when he sees a mass of melee units. IMHO the worst part is if you keep spamming zealots, he will just get a bunch of sentries, save up minerals to expand and you cant do shit because zealots just get blocked by force fields and sit around looking stupid. All your posts seem so much like theory craft.
I included a replay, I can include some more. I've been sort of refining this fast ups style. Heavy zealot builds just keep winning me pvp games - because they're so fucking cost effective vs stalkers and sentries.
Again, if he's trying to kite you, use FF to kill stragglers or make him entirely stop running.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108899-1v1-protoss-lost-temple
Zealot heavy builds work because of the absurd cost effectiveness of zealots vs other protoss tier 1 and immortals.
FF isn't your enemy, its your friend. The mot effective use of FF (outside of on a ramp) - is to punish someone for running. A zeal force is not the one running, since it dominates anything opponent builds on the ground until colossus. Because of this, I generally get better use out of FF than opponent.
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I gave this a try tonite and every single time I did I got raped by DTs. I liked how my army felt up until that point each time, but it felt too awkward to try and shoehorn in detection to the build. Maybe I'll practice the forge timing and give it a try later.
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I encountered the SpeedZealArchon build in a PVP game (these TL.net threads tend to have that kind of impact on b.net). Here is the replay that i saved, we're both diamond 1800 players:
1v1 - Protoss SpeedZealArchon
Normally i do a 3gate build, but iv'e been so bored with PVP lately (even tried carriers for a brief period), so i decided i would go with a 2-gate to mix it up - now i prefer the 3-gate option even more.
As stated a couple of times:
- Effective use of FF and Colossi is the key.
- Proper use of observer enabled me to pick the spot of the battle.
This was the first time i encountered it, i would probably be able to respond even better now having faced it already.
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Just a heads up. I still plan on re-writing my original post. Yes, I know it sucks. I haven't updated yet because I just got a new job, and I haven't even been playing starcraft.
I learned a lot from the comments. Thanks to those people who actually put effort into making an intelligent post, with real criticism, not the same old garbage.
I plan on not only writing about zealot/archon, but the many possible variations of zealot builds, because we all know the heart of this strategy is the charging warrior that the zealot is. I haven't yet tried upgrades instead of archons, but I think it'll work great. I'm a little worried about having too much gas, and not enough minerals for the zealots though. Perhaps upgrades first, then archons? Or even a few stalkers or sentries. So many options.
I'm having mixed feelings about the counter being blink stalkers. I got raped by blink stalkers, but so many people here say blink stalkers don't work so well. Maybe the reason I got raped is because I played a person who was a lot better than I am. Again, more testing is needed.
PM me your replays, suggestions, and build orders please.
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On November 25 2010 13:56 30to1 wrote:
Sorry for the post spam.
But I want to re-emphasize. I imagine that archons are in the build to deal with opponent zealots. This is really the only place in this fight where they shine.
The core idea here, really, is zealots with charge. The reason being that the protoss meta currently favors stalkers into colossus by huge margin. So most protoss you see will rush robo. You punish them with zealots, forcing them to build zealots (at a loss), then counter that with archon.
I think that a more robust strategy is something of the following:
Open 2 gate dual forge / 3 gate + forge / 3 gate + twilight (i don't think rushing twilight is worth it over forges personally) - you want upgrades on your zealots more than even warpgates.
Beat on your opponent with zealots using FF to punish retreating/kiting.
Be flexible. Different units have their place. The heart of this is really that protoss has no answer to T1/T2 answer to zealots - but the protoss metagame currently completely neglects them. So surprise your opponent and brutalize them with it, while transitioning into whatever answer they're most likely to respond with.
THIS! Archon doesn't seem like it really matters, he's just winning because Zealots with charge own Stalkers and every Protoss gets 293847298347892347 Stalkers.
Might as well throw down your Twilight Council for Charge and then get some Void Rays or Phoenix's to force some more Stalkers that will fall to Zealots.
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Like everyone else has said:
FF>This strat. Enjoy running at semi transparent walls while 5 Collossi faceroll your units.
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EPT
