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Not sure what is so bad about building some vikings first from a starport myself.
They beat voidray and robo and are only soso against DT openings. (They can still scout the Toss's base and contribute to ground army a bit.) It delays your drops a bit, but even if they go DTs you'll want the port up for ravens.
Seems like most of the complaints are that the Terran might not be able to blindly go whichever optimized build order they wanted to use. They would have to use a less optimal, more broad opening the same way Protoss has to open into Robo nearly every PVT instead of going straight for charge/storm tech like they want to do. I know this would probably be new to most terran who have had the good fortune to nearly always be the agressor, but it's fine and you'll get used to it. Play might get a bit stale with so few openings available to each race, but we can fix VRs when we fix Terran BOs.
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Watching the replays, it's pretty obvious what the mistakes were. Didn't bother to scout past the initial SCV, assumed a 4 gate or gate/robo, got surprised and lost. The same build with two immortals instead of rays would have broken your front as well on the first replay. You could have pushed earlier instead of poking the front once and backing off after a FF. Hint, FF's without even attempting a split are generally a sign that toss can't deal with your army (or doesn't want to force a confrontation). There was like a 2 minute window where you clearly had a stronger army.
On October 11 2010 10:37 Mithhaike wrote:
yes void rays can be countered by marines as a lot of people are exclaiming out loud, or vikings.but nothing in this game counters CHARGED voidrays, which is the issue here.the stalkers needs marauders to be countered with, the voidrays require marines/vikings. however i repeat,charged voidrays are just too awesome to be stopped.
Hurr durr stim is a bitch too. Void rays are an expensive high-damage unit.
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Let me say this; This is really good on a few maps (like, can't stop it if you scout it just a bit too late) such as shakuras or something with rocks to keep the charge on or something silly like that, but that's more of blizzard's obsession with breakable rocks. If you choose to wall off your ramp with anything BUT a bunker or two, expect to take a ton of damage, since you're pretty much guaranteed to lose whatever buildings you decided to use for your wall.
Does the V-ray need some tweaking? Possibly. However, coming out and crying "IMBA IMBA FLAWED" really is a knee-jerkish way to go about it.
Since this thread will likely spur more of this type of strat, everyone should just back off from calling "L2P" and "IMBA" and try to beat it/use it. As the counter gets fleshed out more, and people learn out to fend it off better (yes, it IS awkward and hard to fight off, but All-ins should be difficult to fight off since it's DO OR DIE most of the time) and eventually it'll just be another tool in the arsenal that could get pulled out.
Now, if say in a week or two's time, it becomes evident (through many replays) that this is WAY OVERKILL to fend off, then I'd have no problem with a redesign of the V-ray that means it isn't relegated to the dumpster like the reaper.
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I think theres 20 pages of people getting PUNK'D is a terran really complaining about a build where all they need to do is scout it to stop it, when their macro mechanic reveals any area of the map........................
thats for Steve ;P
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On October 11 2010 10:58 Mithhaike wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2010 10:50 TyrantPotato wrote:
simply put. when terran has all the builds that dictate pace of the game causeing other races to play reactively the game is working as intended.
but when protoss or zerg get a build that cause terran TO HAVE to react its a design flaw and needs to be nerfed.
terran players, and even seems even the top terran players have gotten to sucked into the notion that they are the ones who should be dictating pace, now when something comes along to chalange that analogy they find them selves struggleing. protoss players who have had to react to terans build orders now have an all in means to keep greedy terrans on their toes.
this just reek of Terran-Hate and total ignorance. please read my post on top before replying again. its not about a build that cause a reactionary response, its about the voidray design in this build which is just too good for a viable counter. builds that cause a reactionary response are around for all races. infact technically you have to react no matter what to whatever build you see kcdc Fast expand - terran scouts it,respond with either early aggression trying to punish the FE, or FE himself. its a reaction right? 4gate - the terran comes into the game planning to 2-3rax FE, he sees the 4gate, he respond with bunkers or stopping the expansion altogether. wow look! another reaction? please do not spread your hating of a particular race around the forums is all im trying to say. keep an objective mind and actually read what is being discussed. applies to a lot of people here, im just taking you as a newest example of the silly race biasedness im seeing here. SC2 is a game,have fun with all the races.
so going along with your above post's notion you would agree that banshee is flawed?
if you dont have detection its end of game. is that a design flaw.
or perhaps DT's
again if no detection you lose. is that a design flaw.
or to the void rays thats being discussed. precharging it before battle to give you an advantage is that a design flaw.
the answer to all three is no.
they are to punish holes in builds. or in the void rays case, give an advantage to the toss player who has the mental capacity to precharge before a battle to increase their chance to win that confrontation.
its like terran 1 A'ing their mmm ball into something. sure its a strong army but can be defeated.
then if a terran stim kites, all of a sudden its effectiveness increases to reward doing something other then 1A'ing.
or a zerg player using mutas against thors. just 1 A'ing they get smashed. but when they fly over and hold position to magic box them their effectiveness increases.
are all of these examples design flaws? no? then why do you consider void rays to be one?
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Protoss Void player here.
I play a lot of team games as protoss and a lesser amount of games as random in the 1's.
In my diamond 4's team i am the techer while my team mates are rushers and I always go for void rays.
But whenever I roll protoss in the 1's i always stick to plain and simple standard gate builds.
Why?
I will tell you why...
7 minutes it takes me to get 5 void rays plus speed (although i can get a void ray out in under 5 if i make a few sacrifices to my economy and really rush it).
7 WHOLE MINUTES!
a lot can happen in 7 minutes...
You can get zerg rushed, lot rushed, 2 rax rushed, three raxxed rushed, reaper rushed, bunker proxy rushed, bunker proxy reaper rushed, banshee rushed, dt rushed, 2 gated, 4 gated, muta rushed, etc etc. I could go on all day.
Now in a team game it all good because my 3 allies are watching the enemy closely and doing their best to keep me safe during those 7 minutes till i snipe out everyone's HQ's.
But in a 1v1?
void ray rushes are just not practical.
void ray harass mid to late game is viable but hey so are cloaked banshees.
even if you play defensively, in 7 minutes you can have a fully saturated expand and a quickly burgeoning army while your protoss opponent still has one stalker and a few void rays which are going to be swarmed by a very disposable army of space rednecks on drugs singing the rifleman's creed.
User was warned for this post
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On October 11 2010 04:33 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful. Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so.
Since you decided to flame me, I suspect you never even watched any of the replays in that thread or read the actual strategy. More likely, you probably just looked at the build order and just decided to nix all possibility that it might be true.
As said multiple times. It's not void rays that's the problem. Yes, I can easily stop void rays, as can many other Ts. But the combination of stalkers/voidray makes it very very difficult. And that "joke", as you called it, is a strategy built around abusing this specific mechanic. I can't say I disagree with using it, because you do what it takes to win, but for terrans right now, it is incredibly difficult to stop.
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On October 11 2010 13:35 ToiletDuck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 04:33 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful. Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so. Since you decided to flame me, I suspect you never even watched any of the replays in that thread or read the actual strategy. More likely, you probably just looked at the build order and just decided to nix all possibility that it might be true. As said multiple times. It's not void rays that's the problem. Yes, I can easily stop void rays, as can many other Ts. But the combination of stalkers/voidray makes it very very difficult. And that "joke", as you called it, is a strategy built around abusing this specific mechanic. I can't say I disagree with using it, because you do what it takes to win, but for terrans right now, it is incredibly difficult to stop.
Solutions to your problem
1) Scan; if he is low on troop count and doesn't have Robo bay in the common spots he is obviously teching hard to something, and 99.9% of the time it's VRs.
2) Double Rax aggression will rape this upside down in so many ways it's not even funny. Even if the P plays normal and you lose a few Mauraders/Marines early it's not that big of a deal anyways, since you still have map control and you can proceed to play as normal. QXC's 3/1/1 build with double early Rax aggression totally beats this build before it can even start. Unless the T is utterly dumb and screws it up, there should be no reason why he should ever lose to a build that has no Sentry in it (or only one early one). You force him to make more Sentry he has to severely slow down his tech.
3) If you are letting the guy mass over 1k+ gas of units as P without attempting to go hit him, then it's your own fault for losing.
4) Brat_Ok 3 rax play or any kind of Brat_Ok variation destroys this build up and down the field. It's also a fairly safe opening, only vulnerable for an extremely short period on 2 player maps against 1 Gate Colossai blind with no Obs (which is extremely risky for the P to do in the first place).
I did watch the replays, the OP got way too greedy, and didn't even bother to do typical Korean double Rax aggression + scan which would have easily told him something fishy was going on. He didn't even bother to micro Marines to shoot VRs when they were in range. He's tried ONE game where he attempted to counter it, which was unsuccessful. And yet he and every T in this thread says "omg OP/bad design" when any double rax early aggression would have torn this in half. There was a huge window where the guy is literally sitting on nothing but what, 2-3 stalkers and a sentry? One of the games he didn't even make a sentry which would have easily lost the P the game, or at least put him at a huge disadvantage.
A simple scan would have EASILY showed him what was going on, the P player didn't even bother to hide his Stargate. Even if he did, you can easily tell that something is fishy going on with such a low troop count but so many Gateways, along with the fact that no Observer has come early on, and no Robobay has been spotted. Not to mention the P economy was also trash, and you can clearly tell that this is an all-in that was designed to punish T players for teching 1-1-1 with no early Bio aggression.
All I have seen so far is "this shit is broken, so fix it." Really? P players have had to deal with a ton of nonsense since the beta (such as Maurader 1 Rax FE, which is still pretty easy to do, just that the first Maurader isn't a super hero anymore and walks into your base and laughs). This is the one strat that I've seen that doesn't involve the P player camping his ass off and hoping the T makes a mistake. It hasn't even appeared that long, and no one has made serious attempts at figuring at loopholes in it (which there are obviously very many).
Example 1-1-1 game the T if he opened double early Rax aggression (which is actually a very normal build among Koreans) he would have ended the game right then and there, or at least put a serious dent into his strategy. An early scan would have revealed Stargate tech, which probably means you should start making Marines and Vikings. I mean honestly, there are so many tell tale signs that this shit is coming, from the fact that his Warpgates are a little late, he has tons of Chronos energy saved up, not probing up after early game, low troop count, etc. I don't see how you cannot know it's not coming. I'm not the best player at this game, but even I can tell that it was obvious some sort of VR all in was coming.
The second game the Link had the game won after the FF went down, and decides to go back for whatever reason. It's like he was attempting to prove a point that if T sits there and camps and let's P get a ton of gas units together, charges VRs up, proxy pylon outside of his base, all while not scouting his tech, then he's going to lose. No, really?
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'void rays are too good to counter' is a sick joke. They are slower than vikings by a good deal, and even 3 PRE-CHARGED void rays will die to a dozen or so unstimmed, unshield marines or half that with a turret (and if they try and attack buildings while ignoring the marines, enjoy your free kills.. stalkers being an anvil? more like a paper tissue.
This isn't about VRs being badly designed. They're actually quite well designed - they won't beat a BC one on one, but if they were any weaker they'd die even faster to a viking escort, and if they were any stronger they would be OP, and if they were any less microable they wouldn't be worth the cost. This also isn't about the VR 3 gate requiring scouting to stop. It is powerful if you do something in which you build no vikings, thors, battlecruisers ravens or marines or marauders. in short, if you only build units with weak attacks that can't attack air.
Worst of all, its' not like if the protoss' push fails that he can try something else, no, the counter doesn't just even the scale, it completely demolishes the protoss player's entire army with a maximum 10 food loss to the protoss 30 food loss, and demolishes everything the protoss could build at this point, leaves him without a hope of expanding and with a damaged economy with cut probes that can't recover - especially not against mules.
When the terran player has such an effective counter available when they could scout it and react to it at such a late point in the game there is no excuse to not using it, in fact, builds like this are what starcraft is all about.
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On October 11 2010 14:25 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 13:35 ToiletDuck wrote:On October 11 2010 04:33 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful. Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so. Since you decided to flame me, I suspect you never even watched any of the replays in that thread or read the actual strategy. More likely, you probably just looked at the build order and just decided to nix all possibility that it might be true. As said multiple times. It's not void rays that's the problem. Yes, I can easily stop void rays, as can many other Ts. But the combination of stalkers/voidray makes it very very difficult. And that "joke", as you called it, is a strategy built around abusing this specific mechanic. I can't say I disagree with using it, because you do what it takes to win, but for terrans right now, it is incredibly difficult to stop. Solutions to your problem 1) Scan; if he is low on troop count and doesn't have Robo bay in the common spots he is obviously teching hard to something, and 99.9% of the time it's VRs. 2) Double Rax aggression will rape this upside down in so many ways it's not even funny. Even if the P plays normal and you lose a few Mauraders/Marines early it's not that big of a deal anyways, since you still have map control and you can proceed to play as normal. QXC's 3/1/1 build with double early Rax aggression totally beats this build before it can even start. Unless the T is utterly dumb and screws it up, there should be no reason why he should ever lose to a build that has no Sentry in it (or only one early one). You force him to make more Sentry he has to severely slow down his tech. 3) If you are letting the guy mass over 1k+ gas of units as P without attempting to go hit him, then it's your own fault for losing. 4) Brat_Ok 3 rax play or any kind of Brat_Ok variation destroys this build up and down the field. It's also a fairly safe opening, only vulnerable for an extremely short period on 2 player maps against 1 Gate Colossai blind with no Obs (which is extremely risky for the P to do in the first place). I did watch the replays, the OP got way too greedy, and didn't even bother to do typical Korean double Rax aggression + scan which would have easily told him something fishy was going on. He didn't even bother to micro Marines to shoot VRs when they were in range. He's tried ONE game where he attempted to counter it, which was unsuccessful. And yet he and every T in this thread says "omg OP/bad design" when any double rax early aggression would have torn this in half. There was a huge window where the guy is literally sitting on nothing but what, 2-3 stalkers and a sentry? One of the games he didn't even make a sentry which would have easily lost the P the game, or at least put him at a huge disadvantage. A simple scan would have EASILY showed him what was going on, the P player didn't even bother to hide his Stargate. Even if he did, you can easily tell that something is fishy going on with such a low troop count but so many Gateways, along with the fact that no Observer has come early on, and no Robobay has been spotted. Not to mention the P economy was also trash, and you can clearly tell that this is an all-in that was designed to punish T players for teching 1-1-1 with no early Bio aggression. All I have seen so far is "this shit is broken, so fix it." Really? P players have had to deal with a ton of nonsense since the beta (such as Maurader 1 Rax FE, which is still pretty easy to do, just that the first Maurader isn't a super hero anymore and walks into your base and laughs). This is the one strat that I've seen that doesn't involve the P player camping his ass off and hoping the T makes a mistake. It hasn't even appeared that long, and no one has made serious attempts at figuring at loopholes in it (which there are obviously very many).
There seems to be a breakdown in communication here. You watched OPs posted replays, but I linked Gnial's thread, which contains replays from the P perspective using one of the build/strategy variations we are currently discussing. I linked it because it is currently one of the strongest PvT builds out there.
So, once again, you flamed me in your initial reply to my first post without ever watching the replays in the thread I linked. Nor did you read the strategy behind it, otherwise you would understand that you don't have map control vs. this build. Again, it's not the straight tech we struggle with. It;s the stalker/void ray combo. And Gnial's is a perfect example of the strategy in action.
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On October 11 2010 14:50 GoldenH wrote:
'void rays are too good to counter' is a sick joke. They are slower than vikings by a good deal, and even 3 PRE-CHARGED void rays will die to a dozen or so unstimmed, unshield marines or half that with a turret (and if they try and attack buildings while ignoring the marines, enjoy your free kills.. stalkers being an anvil? more like a paper tissue.
This isn't about VRs being badly designed. They're actually quite well designed - they won't beat a BC one on one, but if they were any weaker they'd die even faster to a viking escort, and if they were any stronger they would be OP, and if they were any less microable they wouldn't be worth the cost. This also isn't about the VR 3 gate requiring scouting to stop. It is powerful if you do something in which you build no vikings, thors, battlecruisers ravens or marines or marauders. in short, if you only build units with weak attacks that can't attack air.
Worst of all, its' not like if the protoss' push fails that he can try something else, no, the counter doesn't just even the scale, it completely demolishes the protoss player's entire army with a maximum 10 food loss to the protoss 30 food loss, and demolishes everything the protoss could build at this point, leaves him without a hope of expanding and with a damaged economy with cut probes that can't recover - especially not against mules.
When the terran player has such an effective counter available when they could scout it and react to it at such a late point in the game there is no excuse to not using it, in fact, builds like this are what starcraft is all about.
This build isn't even that good, it is wide open to a 2 rax or 3 rax aggression early game, and in worse case scenario you force him to make alot of Sentry (at least 3) which would severely delay his VR tech. It's also weak to Brat_Ok openings which although isn't standard, is pretty safe vs the majority of P openings (such as 3 Gate Robo, 4 Gate, Proxy VR, etc.)
On October 11 2010 14:52 ToiletDuck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 14:25 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 13:35 ToiletDuck wrote:On October 11 2010 04:33 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful. Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so. Since you decided to flame me, I suspect you never even watched any of the replays in that thread or read the actual strategy. More likely, you probably just looked at the build order and just decided to nix all possibility that it might be true. As said multiple times. It's not void rays that's the problem. Yes, I can easily stop void rays, as can many other Ts. But the combination of stalkers/voidray makes it very very difficult. And that "joke", as you called it, is a strategy built around abusing this specific mechanic. I can't say I disagree with using it, because you do what it takes to win, but for terrans right now, it is incredibly difficult to stop. Solutions to your problem 1) Scan; if he is low on troop count and doesn't have Robo bay in the common spots he is obviously teching hard to something, and 99.9% of the time it's VRs. 2) Double Rax aggression will rape this upside down in so many ways it's not even funny. Even if the P plays normal and you lose a few Mauraders/Marines early it's not that big of a deal anyways, since you still have map control and you can proceed to play as normal. QXC's 3/1/1 build with double early Rax aggression totally beats this build before it can even start. Unless the T is utterly dumb and screws it up, there should be no reason why he should ever lose to a build that has no Sentry in it (or only one early one). You force him to make more Sentry he has to severely slow down his tech. 3) If you are letting the guy mass over 1k+ gas of units as P without attempting to go hit him, then it's your own fault for losing. 4) Brat_Ok 3 rax play or any kind of Brat_Ok variation destroys this build up and down the field. It's also a fairly safe opening, only vulnerable for an extremely short period on 2 player maps against 1 Gate Colossai blind with no Obs (which is extremely risky for the P to do in the first place). I did watch the replays, the OP got way too greedy, and didn't even bother to do typical Korean double Rax aggression + scan which would have easily told him something fishy was going on. He didn't even bother to micro Marines to shoot VRs when they were in range. He's tried ONE game where he attempted to counter it, which was unsuccessful. And yet he and every T in this thread says "omg OP/bad design" when any double rax early aggression would have torn this in half. There was a huge window where the guy is literally sitting on nothing but what, 2-3 stalkers and a sentry? One of the games he didn't even make a sentry which would have easily lost the P the game, or at least put him at a huge disadvantage. A simple scan would have EASILY showed him what was going on, the P player didn't even bother to hide his Stargate. Even if he did, you can easily tell that something is fishy going on with such a low troop count but so many Gateways, along with the fact that no Observer has come early on, and no Robobay has been spotted. Not to mention the P economy was also trash, and you can clearly tell that this is an all-in that was designed to punish T players for teching 1-1-1 with no early Bio aggression. All I have seen so far is "this shit is broken, so fix it." Really? P players have had to deal with a ton of nonsense since the beta (such as Maurader 1 Rax FE, which is still pretty easy to do, just that the first Maurader isn't a super hero anymore and walks into your base and laughs). This is the one strat that I've seen that doesn't involve the P player camping his ass off and hoping the T makes a mistake. It hasn't even appeared that long, and no one has made serious attempts at figuring at loopholes in it (which there are obviously very many). There seems to be a breakdown in communication here. You watched OPs posted replays, but I linked Gnial's thread, which contains replays from the P perspective using one of the build/strategy variations we are currently discussing. I linked it because it is currently one of the strongest PvT builds out there. So, once again, you flamed me in your initial reply to my first post without ever watching the replays in the thread I linked. Nor did you read the strategy behind it, otherwise you would understand that you don't have map control vs. this build. Again, it's not the straight tech we struggle with. It;s the stalker/void ray combo. And Gnial's is a perfect example of the strategy in action.
Do you not understand that Gnial and this guy's build has serious issues with a 2 Rax aggression? If you build Sentries to stop it, you severely delay your VR tech. Any standard 2 Rax Korean aggression would have utterly raped this hands down.
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On October 11 2010 14:53 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 14:50 GoldenH wrote:
'void rays are too good to counter' is a sick joke. They are slower than vikings by a good deal, and even 3 PRE-CHARGED void rays will die to a dozen or so unstimmed, unshield marines or half that with a turret (and if they try and attack buildings while ignoring the marines, enjoy your free kills.. stalkers being an anvil? more like a paper tissue.
This isn't about VRs being badly designed. They're actually quite well designed - they won't beat a BC one on one, but if they were any weaker they'd die even faster to a viking escort, and if they were any stronger they would be OP, and if they were any less microable they wouldn't be worth the cost. This also isn't about the VR 3 gate requiring scouting to stop. It is powerful if you do something in which you build no vikings, thors, battlecruisers ravens or marines or marauders. in short, if you only build units with weak attacks that can't attack air.
Worst of all, its' not like if the protoss' push fails that he can try something else, no, the counter doesn't just even the scale, it completely demolishes the protoss player's entire army with a maximum 10 food loss to the protoss 30 food loss, and demolishes everything the protoss could build at this point, leaves him without a hope of expanding and with a damaged economy with cut probes that can't recover - especially not against mules.
When the terran player has such an effective counter available when they could scout it and react to it at such a late point in the game there is no excuse to not using it, in fact, builds like this are what starcraft is all about. This build isn't even that good, it is wide open to a 2 rax or 3 rax aggression early game, and in worse case scenario you force him to make alot of Sentry (at least 3) which would severely delay his VR tech. It's also weak to Brat_Ok openings which although isn't standard, is pretty safe vs the majority of P openings (such as 3 Gate Robo, 4 Gate, Proxy VR, etc.) Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 14:52 ToiletDuck wrote:On October 11 2010 14:25 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 13:35 ToiletDuck wrote:On October 11 2010 04:33 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful. Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so. Since you decided to flame me, I suspect you never even watched any of the replays in that thread or read the actual strategy. More likely, you probably just looked at the build order and just decided to nix all possibility that it might be true. As said multiple times. It's not void rays that's the problem. Yes, I can easily stop void rays, as can many other Ts. But the combination of stalkers/voidray makes it very very difficult. And that "joke", as you called it, is a strategy built around abusing this specific mechanic. I can't say I disagree with using it, because you do what it takes to win, but for terrans right now, it is incredibly difficult to stop. Solutions to your problem 1) Scan; if he is low on troop count and doesn't have Robo bay in the common spots he is obviously teching hard to something, and 99.9% of the time it's VRs. 2) Double Rax aggression will rape this upside down in so many ways it's not even funny. Even if the P plays normal and you lose a few Mauraders/Marines early it's not that big of a deal anyways, since you still have map control and you can proceed to play as normal. QXC's 3/1/1 build with double early Rax aggression totally beats this build before it can even start. Unless the T is utterly dumb and screws it up, there should be no reason why he should ever lose to a build that has no Sentry in it (or only one early one). You force him to make more Sentry he has to severely slow down his tech. 3) If you are letting the guy mass over 1k+ gas of units as P without attempting to go hit him, then it's your own fault for losing. 4) Brat_Ok 3 rax play or any kind of Brat_Ok variation destroys this build up and down the field. It's also a fairly safe opening, only vulnerable for an extremely short period on 2 player maps against 1 Gate Colossai blind with no Obs (which is extremely risky for the P to do in the first place). I did watch the replays, the OP got way too greedy, and didn't even bother to do typical Korean double Rax aggression + scan which would have easily told him something fishy was going on. He didn't even bother to micro Marines to shoot VRs when they were in range. He's tried ONE game where he attempted to counter it, which was unsuccessful. And yet he and every T in this thread says "omg OP/bad design" when any double rax early aggression would have torn this in half. There was a huge window where the guy is literally sitting on nothing but what, 2-3 stalkers and a sentry? One of the games he didn't even make a sentry which would have easily lost the P the game, or at least put him at a huge disadvantage. A simple scan would have EASILY showed him what was going on, the P player didn't even bother to hide his Stargate. Even if he did, you can easily tell that something is fishy going on with such a low troop count but so many Gateways, along with the fact that no Observer has come early on, and no Robobay has been spotted. Not to mention the P economy was also trash, and you can clearly tell that this is an all-in that was designed to punish T players for teching 1-1-1 with no early Bio aggression. All I have seen so far is "this shit is broken, so fix it." Really? P players have had to deal with a ton of nonsense since the beta (such as Maurader 1 Rax FE, which is still pretty easy to do, just that the first Maurader isn't a super hero anymore and walks into your base and laughs). This is the one strat that I've seen that doesn't involve the P player camping his ass off and hoping the T makes a mistake. It hasn't even appeared that long, and no one has made serious attempts at figuring at loopholes in it (which there are obviously very many). There seems to be a breakdown in communication here. You watched OPs posted replays, but I linked Gnial's thread, which contains replays from the P perspective using one of the build/strategy variations we are currently discussing. I linked it because it is currently one of the strongest PvT builds out there. So, once again, you flamed me in your initial reply to my first post without ever watching the replays in the thread I linked. Nor did you read the strategy behind it, otherwise you would understand that you don't have map control vs. this build. Again, it's not the straight tech we struggle with. It;s the stalker/void ray combo. And Gnial's is a perfect example of the strategy in action. Do you not understand that Gnial and this guy's build has serious issues with a 2 Rax aggression? If you build Sentries to stop it, you severely delay your VR tech. Any standard 2 Rax Korean aggression would have utterly raped this hands down.
Given that Gnial's strategy is an aggressive strategy, no, it isn't weak to it, so instead of blindly commenting, why not just click the link and read?
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On October 11 2010 14:57 ToiletDuck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 14:53 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 14:50 GoldenH wrote:
'void rays are too good to counter' is a sick joke. They are slower than vikings by a good deal, and even 3 PRE-CHARGED void rays will die to a dozen or so unstimmed, unshield marines or half that with a turret (and if they try and attack buildings while ignoring the marines, enjoy your free kills.. stalkers being an anvil? more like a paper tissue.
This isn't about VRs being badly designed. They're actually quite well designed - they won't beat a BC one on one, but if they were any weaker they'd die even faster to a viking escort, and if they were any stronger they would be OP, and if they were any less microable they wouldn't be worth the cost. This also isn't about the VR 3 gate requiring scouting to stop. It is powerful if you do something in which you build no vikings, thors, battlecruisers ravens or marines or marauders. in short, if you only build units with weak attacks that can't attack air.
Worst of all, its' not like if the protoss' push fails that he can try something else, no, the counter doesn't just even the scale, it completely demolishes the protoss player's entire army with a maximum 10 food loss to the protoss 30 food loss, and demolishes everything the protoss could build at this point, leaves him without a hope of expanding and with a damaged economy with cut probes that can't recover - especially not against mules.
When the terran player has such an effective counter available when they could scout it and react to it at such a late point in the game there is no excuse to not using it, in fact, builds like this are what starcraft is all about. This build isn't even that good, it is wide open to a 2 rax or 3 rax aggression early game, and in worse case scenario you force him to make alot of Sentry (at least 3) which would severely delay his VR tech. It's also weak to Brat_Ok openings which although isn't standard, is pretty safe vs the majority of P openings (such as 3 Gate Robo, 4 Gate, Proxy VR, etc.) On October 11 2010 14:52 ToiletDuck wrote:On October 11 2010 14:25 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 13:35 ToiletDuck wrote:On October 11 2010 04:33 superstartran wrote:On October 11 2010 00:38 ToiletDuck wrote:the stalker/void ray build is very very difficult to stop, even when you know it's coming. Look up Gnial's build and you'll know what I'm talking about. Here's Gnial's buildI have a friend who uses it vs. me every game and I've never beaten him when he uses it. On ladder he has (no lie) a 90-95% win rate vs. T. I definitely agree that it's too powerful, though I'm not certain whether it's the stalkers or the void rays that make it too powerful. Is this some kind of a joke? VRs are considered auto-loss vs Terrans for the most part, and this build comes so late and is so easily scouted by one scan during the early game. You can tell easily by his troop count, 3 Gateway, and no Robo facility. If you can't tell what's happening then, you're just bad at analyzing one of the most clear cut all-ins in the game. It is braindead easy to see this with 1 scan, and if you don't see it, then you're either too stubborn or just simply bad and refuse to adapt. I'm sorry that P players are starting to pick up strategies where they don't have to play absolutely out of their mind to win, but you know what, that's how a balanced game looks like. You actually have to work for your win rather then expand/tech/eco up while being virtually immune to most things like T was for the past 2 months or so. Since you decided to flame me, I suspect you never even watched any of the replays in that thread or read the actual strategy. More likely, you probably just looked at the build order and just decided to nix all possibility that it might be true. As said multiple times. It's not void rays that's the problem. Yes, I can easily stop void rays, as can many other Ts. But the combination of stalkers/voidray makes it very very difficult. And that "joke", as you called it, is a strategy built around abusing this specific mechanic. I can't say I disagree with using it, because you do what it takes to win, but for terrans right now, it is incredibly difficult to stop. Solutions to your problem 1) Scan; if he is low on troop count and doesn't have Robo bay in the common spots he is obviously teching hard to something, and 99.9% of the time it's VRs. 2) Double Rax aggression will rape this upside down in so many ways it's not even funny. Even if the P plays normal and you lose a few Mauraders/Marines early it's not that big of a deal anyways, since you still have map control and you can proceed to play as normal. QXC's 3/1/1 build with double early Rax aggression totally beats this build before it can even start. Unless the T is utterly dumb and screws it up, there should be no reason why he should ever lose to a build that has no Sentry in it (or only one early one). You force him to make more Sentry he has to severely slow down his tech. 3) If you are letting the guy mass over 1k+ gas of units as P without attempting to go hit him, then it's your own fault for losing. 4) Brat_Ok 3 rax play or any kind of Brat_Ok variation destroys this build up and down the field. It's also a fairly safe opening, only vulnerable for an extremely short period on 2 player maps against 1 Gate Colossai blind with no Obs (which is extremely risky for the P to do in the first place). I did watch the replays, the OP got way too greedy, and didn't even bother to do typical Korean double Rax aggression + scan which would have easily told him something fishy was going on. He didn't even bother to micro Marines to shoot VRs when they were in range. He's tried ONE game where he attempted to counter it, which was unsuccessful. And yet he and every T in this thread says "omg OP/bad design" when any double rax early aggression would have torn this in half. There was a huge window where the guy is literally sitting on nothing but what, 2-3 stalkers and a sentry? One of the games he didn't even make a sentry which would have easily lost the P the game, or at least put him at a huge disadvantage. A simple scan would have EASILY showed him what was going on, the P player didn't even bother to hide his Stargate. Even if he did, you can easily tell that something is fishy going on with such a low troop count but so many Gateways, along with the fact that no Observer has come early on, and no Robobay has been spotted. Not to mention the P economy was also trash, and you can clearly tell that this is an all-in that was designed to punish T players for teching 1-1-1 with no early Bio aggression. All I have seen so far is "this shit is broken, so fix it." Really? P players have had to deal with a ton of nonsense since the beta (such as Maurader 1 Rax FE, which is still pretty easy to do, just that the first Maurader isn't a super hero anymore and walks into your base and laughs). This is the one strat that I've seen that doesn't involve the P player camping his ass off and hoping the T makes a mistake. It hasn't even appeared that long, and no one has made serious attempts at figuring at loopholes in it (which there are obviously very many). There seems to be a breakdown in communication here. You watched OPs posted replays, but I linked Gnial's thread, which contains replays from the P perspective using one of the build/strategy variations we are currently discussing. I linked it because it is currently one of the strongest PvT builds out there. So, once again, you flamed me in your initial reply to my first post without ever watching the replays in the thread I linked. Nor did you read the strategy behind it, otherwise you would understand that you don't have map control vs. this build. Again, it's not the straight tech we struggle with. It;s the stalker/void ray combo. And Gnial's is a perfect example of the strategy in action. Do you not understand that Gnial and this guy's build has serious issues with a 2 Rax aggression? If you build Sentries to stop it, you severely delay your VR tech. Any standard 2 Rax Korean aggression would have utterly raped this hands down. Given that Gnial's strategy is an aggressive strategy, no, it isn't weak to it, so instead of blindly commenting, why not just click the link and read?
Given that most T's don't build walls like that anymore and put Mauraders up their ramp, that nullifies any double Stalker opening. Gnial also has zero troops, and would have been hard pressed to fight any 2 rax aggression without Sentry. If he did build Sentry, he's screwing his VR tech pretty badly.
Do you even play? Seriously. No one does this silly VR stuff on a consistent basis because it's too gimmicky, too risky, and relies way too much on your opponent just being incompetent at the game. Gnial's build along with the one shown here are both extremely vulnerable to early Maurader aggression, which would at worse force you to deviate and severely delay your VR timing push, which is pretty critical to winning.
Also, Gnial himself said that Marine/Ghost is a counter to his strat, which *gasp* is exactly the unit composition that Brat_OK's opening/general strategy calls for. Proxy VR is one of the easiest builds to counter in the game, and hardly any top player gets beaten by it (especially top Korean pros, although they slip up once in awhile) because they scan, they open early aggression for poking/punishing greedy players, etc.
TBH, there's almost no reason why a T player should ever be losing to this if he opens early Bio aggression, which is pretty standard for the most part. The first poke should be able to kill any Stalkers the P has, and should do huge amounts of damage to either cripple or outright win the game. You build no early Sentry (which neither of these builds call for), and you open yourself up to early Stim/Maurader aggression. Just a standard 2 Maurader/1 Marine poke would have done some serious damage to any of these builds since neither guy bothers to make Zealots early on.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2010 11:48 TyrantPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 10:58 Mithhaike wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 11 2010 10:50 TyrantPotato wrote:
simply put. when terran has all the builds that dictate pace of the game causeing other races to play reactively the game is working as intended.
but when protoss or zerg get a build that cause terran TO HAVE to react its a design flaw and needs to be nerfed.
terran players, and even seems even the top terran players have gotten to sucked into the notion that they are the ones who should be dictating pace, now when something comes along to chalange that analogy they find them selves struggleing. protoss players who have had to react to terans build orders now have an all in means to keep greedy terrans on their toes.
this just reek of Terran-Hate and total ignorance. please read my post on top before replying again. its not about a build that cause a reactionary response, its about the voidray design in this build which is just too good for a viable counter. builds that cause a reactionary response are around for all races. infact technically you have to react no matter what to whatever build you see kcdc Fast expand - terran scouts it,respond with either early aggression trying to punish the FE, or FE himself. its a reaction right? 4gate - the terran comes into the game planning to 2-3rax FE, he sees the 4gate, he respond with bunkers or stopping the expansion altogether. wow look! another reaction? please do not spread your hating of a particular race around the forums is all im trying to say. keep an objective mind and actually read what is being discussed. applies to a lot of people here, im just taking you as a newest example of the silly race biasedness im seeing here. SC2 is a game,have fun with all the races. so going along with your above post's notion you would agree that banshee is flawed? if you dont have detection its end of game. is that a design flaw. or perhaps DT's again if no detection you lose. is that a design flaw. or to the void rays thats being discussed. precharging it before battle to give you an advantage is that a design flaw. the answer to all three is no. they are to punish holes in builds. or in the void rays case, give an advantage to the toss player who has the mental capacity to precharge before a battle to increase their chance to win that confrontation. its like terran 1 A'ing their mmm ball into something. sure its a strong army but can be defeated. then if a terran stim kites, all of a sudden its effectiveness increases to reward doing something other then 1A'ing. or a zerg player using mutas against thors. just 1 A'ing they get smashed. but when they fly over and hold position to magic box them their effectiveness increases. are all of these examples design flaws? no? then why do you consider void rays to be one?
You know what, i think you've managed to disagree with yourself. DT & Banshees are as i quote "to punish holes in builds" its a hole,in a build order that you missed out detection which is your mistake and you would pay the price for it.
however Voidray's design is just too powerful when their charged.they melt through everything. there's no comparison.its a battle mechanic. after which you compare to stim kiting, which i agree its effectiveness increased to be more effective than Attack Moving. however, the issue im talking on all the way is the effectiveness of that mechanic is just mindboggling strong.
people talk about preventing the charging up,which is essentially preventing the mechanic from taking effect...which is a good move. however, if the protoss player has already activated the mechanic(charged), the effectiveness of THAT mechanic is just mindboggling.
for me, i would think that the voidrays to have that much damage AFTER their charged and very low dmg when not, is to compensate for the fact they have to charge up 1st. however, if the protoss can just pre-charge on their own units/building, that extreme damage after their charge is a bad idea as there's no longer a reason to have that huge damage after being charged. there's no risk,its a guaranteed mechanic that will steamroll everything.
everyone agrees charged voidrays are super damage dealers, while if their not charged their nothing more than a expensive piece of equipment. its the fact that the protoss can activate the mechanic easily(on their own stuff,rather than the enemy is considered relatively easier) then the voidray's design of having extremely crazy damage after its charged a unbalanced act.
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On October 11 2010 10:29 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 10:17 kidd wrote:
I watched the first replay. why wouldn't you sit an scv or marine outside 2nd to know when units are coming? If you knew, that would've been gg, but also, there was no marine micro focusing down the VRs and you funneled your own units into the ramp. The P didn't have to micro at all. Just leave a unit outside enemy base to scout when army is coming and destroy it while it's on the way and focus VRs with your marines. That would've won the game even with your "bad" build against the VR strat. Also he FFed you from coming into his base, but he only had one sentry, you could've just waited and run up, killed the units then seen the stargate.
No offense to OP or anything, but I find it really hard to believe that a 2000+ T thinks this build is such a problem that VRs need a rework though I do agree that VRs could use a rework though, but for different reasons. Yes, continue to give advice to a player infinitely better than you and berate him on how he should never have an issue with this build ever cause you're so much better. Jesus christ.
this is getting so damn old and extremely annoying
everytime a good player makes a point, suddenly nobody else is supposedly allowed to have an opinion of its own or - dear god - even give advice; in sports many of the most talented coaches SUCK AT PLAYING!
there are actually few sports coaches who were really, really good players themselves; in real sports it's accepted that you DON'T have to be "skilled" to know what you are talking about; but in sc2 everybody who doesn't have the finger-skill to handle the game is automatically assumed to have no idead what he is talking about
so yes
putting a SCV or marine in front of your base if you suspect pylon-charge-voidrays helps; this is a fact, no matter if I'm a bronze-noob and he is a smurf of oGstheStc
Jesus christ.
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I am a terran player but not so high ranked as you but still i will write my opinion on this.
I try to always scout protos base with barack its 150 minerals less than mule. If i know there is something missing i expect some cheese.
There are not so many possibielities.
Void Ray & DT are the most popular. You can go raven for pdd and detect it would solve the issue with DT and probably hepl with the stalkers with the point defense drone and you would only care about the voidrays or you will go one or two turets in front. This will help with both.
I watch nearly every pro game and only few terrans use wall at the choke. After the zealot build time nerf the wall is not so esential in defending early agresion. So you are not losing buildings and you can throw a bunker at your choke.
There should be always a build that is hard to stop or imposible to stop if you dont scout it else there would by no point in hiding it.
Maybe if i reach the 2000 diamond i will change my opinion on this but for now i think the void rays are cool.
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I have a better balance solution : make them do more initial domages but gain less overtime.
Voidray fully charged should dps 33% less of what their currently do and uncharged 50% more.
Seems to be a good solution to balance a bit more.
Voidray is totally OP, get real protoss players.
I admit marauders are OP also =)
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On October 11 2010 22:09 Tonyoh wrote:
I have a better balance solution : make them do more initial domages but gain less overtime.
Voidray fully charged should dps 33% less of what their currently do and uncharged 50% more.
Seems to be a good solution to balance a bit more.
Voidray is totally OP, get real protoss players.
I admit marauders are OP also =)
OK Marauders 50 gas and we have a deal^^
I finally read the whole tread. So the whole Problem about this strat is, that if it is not scouted it will cost the Terran the game. That means as long as he plays a "normal" build.
Adjusting your build seems like the obvoius choice
The game is young, the metagame is chainging
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On October 09 2010 15:02 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 14:52 TyrantPotato wrote:
2000 diamond still having trouble against proxy stargates.
thats the point of building a proxy stargate. if they cant find it they reap the rewards.
its like me building a proxy starport and going banshee cloaked cheese. if i win does that mean banshees design is flawed. or is it because it was a risky flip of the coin strat.
It's not really the same thing at all. Proxy stargate forces T to produce vikings. Cloak banshees dumps 200 gas into a dead-end tech if P has observers (and they almost always will) and it doesn't really force anything except a couple mineral-only cannons. Thus, one is a gamble while the other has at least a guaranteed return - forcing T to make vikings. Also, the value of the gamble is pretty dramatically skewed in P's favor. If the cloak banshee strat pays off, P loses mining time while boosting an obs or tossing down cannons. If the VR strategy pays off, you autowin the game as your VRs destroy the T base in seconds. The risk/reward continuum is dramatically different.
Wrong on the thing about the dump of gas. Instead look at an alternative. If the terran simply gets a handfull of vikings and a couple ravens to go along with those banshees, he gets to drop pdd which blocks incoming projectiles, then a smart terran will snipe your observer since theres no way in hell to get one over there before the banshees get to do a lot of damage. When a spare does show up, then you can try to snipe that one too, or you can just finish off the stalker army you started killing in the first place. And phoenix just suck when pdd and viking on the table because they can't deplete the pdd quickly.
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Void Rays in T v P are flawed. In practice, they do not hard-counter BC's with Yamato and an armada of repairing SCV's.
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EPT
