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On October 12 2010 03:11 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 02:41 avilo wrote:On October 11 2010 05:59 GoldenH wrote:
Thing is you don't have to blind counter it. You can actually start building units after the first VR is out and still have enough to win. Its not like you're screwed if you miss the stargate going down, these aren't warp dts with a pylon in your base. If he is going stargate, gate, gate, he will have a ridiculously small army maybe 6-7 units, by the time you have teched up to battlecruisers or whatever it is you wanted. 3 gate stargate is all in, even probe production would have to stop, and in order to get that many stalkers an early sentry and void rays, he'd have to double gas before his second pylon.
If you're trying to be cute when someone makes that much units, you deserve to die. what fantasy world do you live in? If you do not accumulate units pre-emptively versus a strat like this, you will die to the voidrays because if you don't have the minimum number of vikings/marines required to take down 3 ALREADY CHARGED voids + the stalkers/zealot + continued warp ins...you die. YES, if you went 3 rax you can stop it! But for fucks sake, no one wants to 3rax all-in every damn game to blind counter a void ray strat that needs extreme luck to be scouted anyways. And for people spouting out idiocy about "stopping void rays from charging," they can charge up on their own pylons/gateways...*facepalms* and if you walled, your wall is gonna most likely die UNLESS you already had been building vikings, or had pre-emptive bunkers up. And for gods sake, it's not Terran QQ, it's more or less discussion about lack of scouting. People recommending to scan...just stop. That's like looking for a needline in a haystack. read through a lot of the thread...50% of the people dunno wtf they are talking about...other 40% keep going off-topic talking about 50 other builds instead of the one mentioned in OP. 10%...read those...if you have the time to wade through the non sense. No one WANTS to 3 gate robo every game either - but hey what exactly is it the the threat of an equally "unscoutable" build has forced protoss players to do for a good period of time? Oh yeah right - exactly what terrans have to do now to stop the VR build. The people talking about stopping the VRs from charging talked about scouting the proxy and kill it before the VRs could charge - or better yet, engage just as the VR are about to charge - the pylon has to be pretty damn close to your base for them to not lose the charge on the flight. The people talking about scanning aren't talking about scanning the ACTUAL tech but scanning his buildings/unit composition which will make you able to make an educated guess of what build the toss is going. It is obviously moronic to try and search for a proxy with scan and no one suggested. Reading through this thread is like 100% P players asking why this is flawed and the banshee build isn't - they both force certain BOs until someone figures out a better BO. Then it is a couple of top end players who conclude from 2 replays, in which one of said top end players played like a bronze-leaguer, that the build is broken and yet when they are asked how exactly this is more broken than the banshee build by the protoss players their answer is because it's VRs, hard to scout and you guys suck. I perfectly understand how annoying it can be to discuss things on an online forum, but seriously - let your arguments speak and let them be better than 2 replays littered with mistakes and a "I'm higher ranked than you and you suck so I'm right" - if better evidence had been provided I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have turned out to the sorry excuse of a thread that this is, but seeing as such wasn't provided, this thread started out as terran QQ and it went downhill from there (due to a joint effort). Oh and on a sidenote (or well, this is probably more than a sidenote): Try a ghost + marine build - that'll keep you safe from more or less ANYTHING that the protoss can throw at you whilst letting you be aggressive throughout most of the early and midgame.
Except if they go for a fast collosi which means GG. And that build is pretty popular.
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i already find it a problem with this build. the protoss can be hiding his/her units in another area and make it seem like they're proxying stargate and then send like a zealot to scout if u went rax, and then just macro the shit out of u. OR they can actually do the stargate and void ray u. the build puts a huge disadvantage to a terran. maybe they should increase the scan range...to maybe half the map per scan? =P lol. but yea this build is no fun for terran for sure. so many variations that a simple scout may not do well enough -- especially on a 4 player map.
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On October 12 2010 03:39 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:04 avilo wrote:On October 12 2010 02:50 GoldenH wrote:
Yeah, I do, sorry if you want to say it doesn't work, but I've seen it happen. It's too bad that people are actually using strategies that work against this on the ladder, and that none of them know about this thread to share their skills.
I guess you are probably in the category that think it's a good idea to warp in stalkers two at a time right underneath the charged void ray? On October 12 2010 02:46 avilo wrote:On October 12 2010 02:44 GoldenH wrote:
I live in the fantasy world where I am a 1400 diamond protoss player who regularly employs void rays as harassment against terran and know what army i can attack and win and what will soundly defeat me.
If you throw down 2 or 3 rax anytime after the five minute point you will easily have enough army to hold it off by the time 3 void rays are out. .....you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Once again, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Versus this x3warpx1stargate strat, waiting for three voids, if you didn't already go 3 rax, if you didn't already start building vikings, and if you didn't already have a bunker YOU DIE. There is no "throw down 2-3 rax suddenly." There's no time to do that, there'll already be the 3 voids + gateway units at your wall. You will die to this build if you did not already have a ton of marines and stim or marines and bunker + viking. And in case you didn't realize, the good players in this thread have already said what works versus this strategy. What the hell are you talking about? Give it up... these people are hopeless... Thanks for trying Avilo but without mods this thread is trash. Most of the top players have already left this thread. I've read all of this thread and people are saying the same thing over and over again when they are talking about completely different things and acting like they know what they're talking about and telling top players to l2p. Where are the mods? There would be so many warnings for people talking about what they don't know, if not bans...
And posts like this surely help the discourse? The majority of the posts you're complaining about are focused on the game where as most of the rebuttal is directed at the poster's competence. Surely this is the kind of derailment post that deserves moderation.
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On October 12 2010 03:27 Firesemi wrote:
Did anyone mention a gas steal? (Tldl 21 pages sorry) As a zerg a gas steal has become a staple in my ZvP. You can even build it to 99% and then cancel it when they have almost hammered it down.
Gas steal a Protoss? You do realize they can kill the SCV right?
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well that depends u don't have to COMPLETE the refinery. the gas steal won't buy u that much time tho because it doesn't build on its own. i think it's time terrans get a tech reactor.
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Gas steal won't actually slow down the VR unfortunately... if I get gas steal'd, my first zealot will kill the extractor. If you don't complete the extractor I will have a probe standing by spamming to build an assimilator when you cancel, it will probably beat you. The gas steal will mean that there will be a few zealots instead of stalkers, or no sentry. But honestly, 3 zealots + 11 stalkers is probably superior to 14 stalkers.
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On October 12 2010 03:53 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:39 frogmelter wrote:On October 12 2010 03:04 avilo wrote:On October 12 2010 02:50 GoldenH wrote:
Yeah, I do, sorry if you want to say it doesn't work, but I've seen it happen. It's too bad that people are actually using strategies that work against this on the ladder, and that none of them know about this thread to share their skills.
I guess you are probably in the category that think it's a good idea to warp in stalkers two at a time right underneath the charged void ray? On October 12 2010 02:46 avilo wrote:On October 12 2010 02:44 GoldenH wrote:
I live in the fantasy world where I am a 1400 diamond protoss player who regularly employs void rays as harassment against terran and know what army i can attack and win and what will soundly defeat me.
If you throw down 2 or 3 rax anytime after the five minute point you will easily have enough army to hold it off by the time 3 void rays are out. .....you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Once again, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Versus this x3warpx1stargate strat, waiting for three voids, if you didn't already go 3 rax, if you didn't already start building vikings, and if you didn't already have a bunker YOU DIE. There is no "throw down 2-3 rax suddenly." There's no time to do that, there'll already be the 3 voids + gateway units at your wall. You will die to this build if you did not already have a ton of marines and stim or marines and bunker + viking. And in case you didn't realize, the good players in this thread have already said what works versus this strategy. What the hell are you talking about? Give it up... these people are hopeless... Thanks for trying Avilo but without mods this thread is trash. Most of the top players have already left this thread. I've read all of this thread and people are saying the same thing over and over again when they are talking about completely different things and acting like they know what they're talking about and telling top players to l2p. Where are the mods? There would be so many warnings for people talking about what they don't know, if not bans... And posts like this surely help the discourse? The majority of the posts you're complaining about are focused on the game where as most of the rebuttal is directed at the poster's competence. Surely this is the kind of derailment post that deserves moderation.
Except he's high in the top 200 and people are telling him to learn how to play.
News flash. You guys aren't better than him. If you were, then you would be up in the top 200.
And people keep talking about different builds. Talk about the same build as the OP please.
And the problem isn't defeating this build. That is easy enough. The problem is SCOUTING it, as it is incredibly luck based where he decides to proxy it since he can contain you once he gets warpgates.
It has also been agreed on that 3 rax CAN stop this build, but most of the top players don't want to only 3 rax on the off chance that someone does this build. Not to mention the 3 rax can be scouted and the Protoss player can just not do this build and react accordingly. [Which looks like it was what happened to iechoic back a few pages]
So yes, the posts I'm complaining about are the ones where people are address the wrong problems in this thread because they aren't reading the entire thread. Yes, it's 20+ pages, but you should still read all of it before posting anything.
You did notice that almost all the top players have left right? OP hasn't posted for a while for a reason and it's not because everyone is too helpful...
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Hopefully it is because he is trying to see what the minimum amount of units he needs to hold this off & how to get them without altering his build too much.
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On October 12 2010 04:08 GoldenH wrote:
Hopefully it is because he is trying to see what the minimum amount of units he needs to hold this off & how to get them without altering his build too much.
....
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On October 12 2010 03:25 PROJECTILE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 01:03 NuKedUFirst wrote:On ladder a friend of mine just did this strategy to me on delta quadrant, attacked with 2 charged VRs and stalkers and I was able to hold it with Brat_OK's Marine Ghost build and ended up winning after the push, voidrays are pretty fragile in my opinion, once emp'd they die hella fast. Here is the rep for your pleasure only. www.replayladder.com/site/replay/1469 We are both 1400~ Diamond range I think late game voidrays massed is very strong but I don't find this build "imbalanced" it really depends on what terran does. Obviously if you do a fast expand or something risky then you will get rolled by VR Stalker. Other then that it seems fine. I think that shows promise, but your buddy didn't do the optimal build. He was slow on his VRs, his push, and one of his 2 VRs wasn't even charged. edit: also, did you know this build was coming ahead of time? Obviously with the late reaper scout it was pretty apparent something was missing in his base, but had you discussed this beforehand? I just ask cause you seem very quick to throw down 3 bunkers after sending in your reaper.
I thought he was going to 4 gate me or something to that effect so I threw down 2 more bunkers so I don't lose to any cheese~
In that replay we probably didn't play perfectly but I figured I would post it anyways. The game may have gone differently If I attacked first and he defended it and countered with the charged voidrays but yeah, I didn't scout his stargate, just his 2 gates
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On October 12 2010 03:52 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 03:11 Ghostcom wrote:On October 12 2010 02:41 avilo wrote:On October 11 2010 05:59 GoldenH wrote:
Thing is you don't have to blind counter it. You can actually start building units after the first VR is out and still have enough to win. Its not like you're screwed if you miss the stargate going down, these aren't warp dts with a pylon in your base. If he is going stargate, gate, gate, he will have a ridiculously small army maybe 6-7 units, by the time you have teched up to battlecruisers or whatever it is you wanted. 3 gate stargate is all in, even probe production would have to stop, and in order to get that many stalkers an early sentry and void rays, he'd have to double gas before his second pylon.
If you're trying to be cute when someone makes that much units, you deserve to die. what fantasy world do you live in? If you do not accumulate units pre-emptively versus a strat like this, you will die to the voidrays because if you don't have the minimum number of vikings/marines required to take down 3 ALREADY CHARGED voids + the stalkers/zealot + continued warp ins...you die. YES, if you went 3 rax you can stop it! But for fucks sake, no one wants to 3rax all-in every damn game to blind counter a void ray strat that needs extreme luck to be scouted anyways. And for people spouting out idiocy about "stopping void rays from charging," they can charge up on their own pylons/gateways...*facepalms* and if you walled, your wall is gonna most likely die UNLESS you already had been building vikings, or had pre-emptive bunkers up. And for gods sake, it's not Terran QQ, it's more or less discussion about lack of scouting. People recommending to scan...just stop. That's like looking for a needline in a haystack. read through a lot of the thread...50% of the people dunno wtf they are talking about...other 40% keep going off-topic talking about 50 other builds instead of the one mentioned in OP. 10%...read those...if you have the time to wade through the non sense. No one WANTS to 3 gate robo every game either - but hey what exactly is it the the threat of an equally "unscoutable" build has forced protoss players to do for a good period of time? Oh yeah right - exactly what terrans have to do now to stop the VR build. The people talking about stopping the VRs from charging talked about scouting the proxy and kill it before the VRs could charge - or better yet, engage just as the VR are about to charge - the pylon has to be pretty damn close to your base for them to not lose the charge on the flight. The people talking about scanning aren't talking about scanning the ACTUAL tech but scanning his buildings/unit composition which will make you able to make an educated guess of what build the toss is going. It is obviously moronic to try and search for a proxy with scan and no one suggested. Reading through this thread is like 100% P players asking why this is flawed and the banshee build isn't - they both force certain BOs until someone figures out a better BO. Then it is a couple of top end players who conclude from 2 replays, in which one of said top end players played like a bronze-leaguer, that the build is broken and yet when they are asked how exactly this is more broken than the banshee build by the protoss players their answer is because it's VRs, hard to scout and you guys suck. I perfectly understand how annoying it can be to discuss things on an online forum, but seriously - let your arguments speak and let them be better than 2 replays littered with mistakes and a "I'm higher ranked than you and you suck so I'm right" - if better evidence had been provided I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have turned out to the sorry excuse of a thread that this is, but seeing as such wasn't provided, this thread started out as terran QQ and it went downhill from there (due to a joint effort). Oh and on a sidenote (or well, this is probably more than a sidenote): Try a ghost + marine build - that'll keep you safe from more or less ANYTHING that the protoss can throw at you whilst letting you be aggressive throughout most of the early and midgame. Except if they go for a fast collosi which means GG. And that build is pretty popular.
How many have you met who proxy a robotics + bay? And if he doesn't proxy the robo + bay it is pretty easy to scout...
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I think Void Rays should be changed so that they can only charge up on enemy units / structures.
That seems at least to me to have been the original concept of the unit. Charging up on your own pylon / rocks is definitely a cool idea, but a very cheesy one.
I'm not really complaining about the concept of the Void Ray itself. I hate how once a Protoss has rushed VRs and gotten two charged up , it's basically GG because there's no way to beat it that early in the game, but you should be punished for allowing them the time to charge up. Then again, considering T's lack of mobility, one could construe that as a design flaw, but whatever.
My problem is that they can charge on structures that you have zero control over. What, are you supposed to defend neutral and enemy structures from Void Rays along with your own so they won't come in and slice everything up? It's ridiculous.
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The fact that any terrain is complaining about high dps and killing of structures fast is mind boggling to me.
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On October 12 2010 04:25 AcuWill wrote:
The fact that any terrain is complaining about high dps and killing of structures fast is mind boggling to me.
The fact that you can't spell a six-letter word is mind-boggling to me.
Also, countering any Terran argument with "but lol u OP" is only cute on the Battle.net forums.
On-topic: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/832103302?page=2#27
They're "keeping their eyes on Void Rays." That alone is hard proof that there is indeed a problem with Void Rays, and no amount of "BUT TERRAN HAS" will change that.
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seriously if i hear one more fucking post about better scouting i'm gonna ....i'm gonna do something i haven't figured it out yet. the point of the build is that he HAS THE OPTION TO NOT DO IT BY SCOUTING U. AND ONCE HE DOES THAT U ARE IN A HUGE SHITHOLE because he can either expand - in which u can do nothing about because u decided to get vikings(blindly) and not know about it OR he just runs to ur base with a bunch of stalkers probably because u don't have a good enough unit count to counter his stalkers. what the OP and most of the top players are trying to say is that this build is giving the protoss the advantage without the terran being able to SAFELY transition out of the void ray defense and get a solid ground army to fend off a push. not to mention that he can just out macro u and u'll pretty much die anyway. AND the protoss being able to simply transition out of this. yes yes we know u can do the 3 rax to counter this, but u want to do that all in every game against a protoss that knows of this build and knows that if U SCREW up somehow ur dead? as a pro (not that i am one), i would not want another player to gain advantage of me like that.
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On October 12 2010 04:32 .Aar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:25 AcuWill wrote:
The fact that any terrain is complaining about high dps and killing of structures fast is mind boggling to me. The fact that you can't spell a six-letter word is mind-boggling to me. Also, countering any Terran argument with "but lol u OP" is only cute on the Battle.net forums. On-topic: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/832103302?page=2#27They're "keeping their eyes on Void Rays." That alone is hard proof that there is indeed a problem with Void Rays, and no amount of "BUT TERRAN HAS" will change that.
Excellent argument. Counter my ad-hominem argument (as you define it) with an ad-hominem argument is brilliant.
Further, I never actually made the argument you are accusing me of. Just difficult to fathom the fact that Terran (there you go big boy) complaining about mixing a high dps unit, which requires high level micro, with one of the worst dps per cost units in game (stalkers) is really a reason to want to nerf one of the few units that give Toss an advantage if used well.
In that case, why not remove force fields as well. Or range of Colossus. Or any other advantage that Toss have as a race.
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On October 12 2010 03:45 TERATON wrote:
If u see only like 2-3 gateways and nothing else, then there are 2 options : proxy something or ur opponent is horrible. Though there is also a 3rd possibility - 2 random expansions. Hmmmm, which one is it when playing against diamonds...
Can someone at the higher levels explain why this doesn't solve the scouting issues with a single scan, or a simple scouting of the front?
I'm only a 1200ish level diamond but to me the OP seems to be arguing the following:
1) VRs are to strong unscouted
2) Terran has no way to scout them.
As a lower level player I just don't understand why the scouting is impossible. As toss I often have to "scout" fast banshees by checking his front early on and guessing his build based on his M/M count or by applying some early pressure and this seems no different to me.
Its seems like 1 scan or checking his front will rarely see the Starport but it should be enough to let you know that he simply doesn't have enough other stuff and is doing something suspicious and you can throw down the 3rax for an easy counter.
I don't get what you could possibly be seeing with your scan or scouting of the front/his expansion that wouldn't alert you to the fact that the toss player has too few "standard" units/structures if he's spending 600 gas and 900 minerals on starport tech before he attacks you...
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On October 12 2010 04:32 .Aar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 04:25 AcuWill wrote:
The fact that any terrain is complaining about high dps and killing of structures fast is mind boggling to me. The fact that you can't spell a six-letter word is mind-boggling to me. Also, countering any Terran argument with "but lol u OP" is only cute on the Battle.net forums. On-topic: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/832103302?page=2#27They're "keeping their eyes on Void Rays." That alone is hard proof that there is indeed a problem with Void Rays, and no amount of "BUT TERRAN HAS" will change that.
We are talking about the same company which might have chosen (if what I've read about patch 1.2) to require a supply depot before rax - tell me again with a straight face that anything they do is reasonable...
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Tarath i completely agree with you. Scouting the front will give terran all the information they need to know. Or, at the very least, it will limit the possibilities to a few builds.
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EPT
